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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |

Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
374
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:34:00 -
[181] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:You know, the whole problem is not about game related mails made public but personal information about stuff like health. The API does not filter those out. A spy would never copy/paste personal information to a public website as it holds no "ingame value" to be used.
I would think that private emails would be more suitable for discussing that cyst on your ass than the alliance email. And if you choose to send any account information over a unsecured third party system, well, you deserve whatever comes your way. |

Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
640
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:36:00 -
[182] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote: I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?
*hushed voice* ARMAGEDDON *hushed voice* - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
329
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:55:00 -
[183] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:You know, the whole problem is not about game related mails made public but personal information about stuff like health. The API does not filter those out. A spy would never copy/paste personal information to a public website as it holds no "ingame value" to be used.
Let me ask this: If I would post links to illegal content, like movies, and eveskunk automatic make them public. Who would be wrong? Eveskunk for making links to illegal content public? CCP for helping eveskunk retreiving the mails? The person sharing the API? Or the person sending a personal mail to his/her friends?
Dude, stop. Just stop already.
I have done my research on business law and I have learned, given what is said on the End User License Agreement and on the Terms of Service, that the fact that Eve-mails being exposed like this has no legal implications. You agreed to the EULA/TOS when you signed up for Eve Online. Therefore, no right-minded lawyer or layer will ever help you. They will laugh at you and then move on.
Stop trying to troll us because it's not working. Stop pretending that you can have CCP undo your stupid mistakes for not checking for spies in your corp and not updating your API accordingly, and stop embarrassing yourself. Actually, never mind. Keep embarrassing yourself. We need more tears. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |

Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1122
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 16:10:00 -
[184] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:Let me ask this: If I would post links to illegal content, like movies, and eveskunk automatic make them public. Who would be wrong? Eveskunk for making links to illegal content public? CCP for helping eveskunk retreiving the mails? The person sharing the API? Or the person sending a personal mail to his/her friends? The author of the original link would be culpable, whether he intended the communication private or not (the medium is specified non-private).
Everyone else in the chain has plausible deniability due to
a) Their TOS prohibiting you writing that content in the first place b) They're providing a medium and offer no content control, make no pretense to, and indeed outright state the authorship remains with the author.
You're basically using a service that makes no pretense to privacy and security and OPENLY gives tools to other users of that service to intercept those communications. You sign an agreement to allow this.
If you're posting private messages with the above caveats in place, you're doing it wrong. If you're posting private in-game messages, then, well, you just got meta-gamed son. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |

Ibrihm Esenhorn
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 16:54:00 -
[185] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:I think many have seen www.eveskunk.com by now. An API from a player is (ab)used to show alliance mails on a website for everybody to see. But this is against many national laws, privacy laws to be exact. The problem could correct itself if the sender of the mail has an option to exclude the mail from the API, but there is no such option. My question to CCP, will the API be changed and the alliance and corp mails removed from the API? Torrent site aren't downloading the content themselfs, but facilitate it.. So is CCP, not sending the mails to website like www.eveskunk.com but CCP does facilitate it.
I can be pretty sure that, in the US at least, email does not have a general expectation of privacy. Barring single communication with a spouse, lawyer, or limited protection for doctors any recipient of an email can make it public with no legal repercussions - even if the email says something along the lines of "for authorized use only". |

Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 17:13:00 -
[186] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Geil Ding wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?
I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies. I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common? Once you send them to another person, they aren't 'your mails' anymore. Still waiting for that law sweetheart.
An Im waiting for the one that directly relates to EVE or any video game in game mail
Geil reminds me of someone that would throw money at a case like thing JUST to GET A precedence |

Geil Ding
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 17:44:00 -
[187] - Quote
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless. |

seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
155
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 17:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.
MMO's are not for you...  |

Spymaster Bates
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 20:19:00 -
[189] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.
Get out now!
The end is coming!
/thread Twitter - @eveskunk |

Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 20:26:00 -
[190] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote: I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law
But...but..your title says there was breach of national laws! You stated in your OP that there was! You sounded so sure and I believed you. And now I find it was all a lie...
Thank you Geil Ding, I have learned a valuable lesson today. I can never trust another human being ever again. |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 20:55:00 -
[191] - Quote
Overseer Aliena wrote:Geil Ding wrote: I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law But...but..your title says there was breach of national laws! You stated in your OP that there was! You sounded so sure and I believed you. And now I find it was all a lie... Thank you Geil Ding, I have learned a valuable lesson today. I can never trust another human being ever again. You can trust me.
Let me hold your wallet.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. |

EFF ONEF1
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:36:00 -
[192] - Quote
Does anyone know if that one alliance asking for ts donations ever got them? I'd be sad if they couldn't hear mouth breathing anymore |

Aglea Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:45:00 -
[193] - Quote
EFF ONEF1 wrote:Does anyone know if that one alliance asking for ts donations ever got them? I'd be sad if they couldn't hear mouth breathing anymore
It was one of the first things I spammed in Jita!
http://www.eveskunk.com/?messageID=312635286
Hopefully they did, maybe they can send a follow up alliance email. |

Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:52:00 -
[194] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless. MMO's are not for you... 
OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law. |

Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:46:00 -
[195] - Quote
Fannie Maes wrote:seany1212 wrote:Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless. MMO's are not for you...  OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law.
It's not 'law', but it is a legally binding contract and therefore subject to 'contract law' which is an actual law. Of course since CCP only have offices in the US, UK, China and Iceland, you'd have to go to one of those places to sue them. |

Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
197
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:50:00 -
[196] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Fannie Maes wrote:seany1212 wrote:Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless. MMO's are not for you...  OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law. It's not 'law', but it is a legally binding contract and therefore subject to 'contract law' which is an actual law. Of course since CCP only have offices in the US, UK, China and Iceland, you'd have to go to one of those places to sue them.
It is not a legally binding contract by law, in the US last trial about that had the judge throw the case out. In the EU it has already been declared to violate existing law.
Welcome to the idiot club.
I also do not have to go to one of those places to sue them, I can sue them in any country they operate in as selling their products and services, that includes all of the EU, just FYI that's all! |

Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
840
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 23:37:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?
I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.
Once a goodposter always a goodposter. |

Jovan Geldon
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
414
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:21:00 -
[198] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:any discussion on this topic is pointless
First sensible thing you've said in the entire thread
|

Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
Xython wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?
I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies. Once a goonposter always a goonposter.
 |

Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:16:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.
If you'd stop making EVE easier we'd have less idiots like this. Just sayin' |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
331
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 03:14:00 -
[201] - Quote
Geil Ding wrote:First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.
I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.
I don't see any lawyers in real life complaining about eve-mails being misused like this, after all these years of this happening, so how about you shut up and get out of this game. It's obvious you don't know the first thing about law. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 03:29:00 -
[202] - Quote
Fannie Maes wrote:
It is not a legally binding contract by law, in the US last trial about that had the judge throw the case out. In the EU it has already been declared to violate existing law.
Welcome to the idiot club.
I also do not have to go to one of those places to sue them, I can sue them in any country they operate in as selling their products and services, that includes all of the EU, just FYI that's all!
The EULA is a legally-binding contract for the service provided. It's why the vast majority of big businesses that offer services have these as a requirement to agree to. The contract is thrown out by the court if and when the provisions of the contract violate the law or does not meet the minimum elements needed to count as a valid contract.
This is from my business law class here in US.
Quote:E-CONTRACTS REFER TO THOSE LEGAL PRINCIPLES WHICH ADAPT TRADITIONAL CONTRACTING STANDARDS, RULES, AND REQUIREMENTS, TO MEET THE NEW TECHNOLOGY OF COMMERCIAL CYBERSPACE TRANSACTIONS. THE STANDARD CONTRACT RULES OF OFFER, ACCEPTANCE, CONSIDERATION STILL APPLY TO E-CONTRACTS, HOWEVER, HOW THEY ARE MANIFESTED AS HISTORICAL RECORDS MAY BE DIFFERENT FROM TRADITIONAL PAPER RECORDS.
ONLINE OFFERS INCLUDES CHECK BOXES INDICATING THAT BUYER ACCEPTS ALL TERMS OF THE SELLERGÇÖS OFFER; SCREENS OUTLING THE PAYMENT PROVISIONS; SCREENS OUTLING THE REFUND AND RETURN POLICIES; DISCLAIMERS OF LIABILITY; REMEDIES FOR DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS; STATEMENTS ON HOW THE BUYERGÇÖS INFORMATION WILL BE USED; PROVISIONS FOR DISPUTE RESOLUTION.
Quote:Online Acceptance
CLICK-ON BOXES ARE RECOGNIZED AS AN ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS CONTAINED IN THE OFFER; AGREEMENTS ARE RECOGNIZED WHEN THEY ARE INCLUDED IN THE PRODUCT WHEN DELIVERED BY ONLINE ORDERS; STANDARD CONTRACTING PRINCIPLES APPLY TO ONLINE ACCEPTANCE WHERE A CONTRACTGÇÖS TERMS ARE FINALIZED UPON THE BUYER EXECUTING THE ACCEPTANCE IN THE DESIGNATED MANNER. LATER ADDED TERMS ARE NOT BINDING ON THE BUYER. SPECHT VS NETSCAPE COMMUNICATIONS CORP. (PG 260).
Book: [Miller, R. L., & Jentz, G. A. (2009). Fundamentals of business law: Summarized cases. (9th Ed.) Mason, OH: Thomson South-Western. ISBN-13: 978-1111530-624[/quote]
I don't know which trial you are referring to that caused the EULA/TOS to be thrown out, and therefore I am interested in knowing the link for that so I can research it.
===EDIT===
A key thing to remember regarding the case on Specht vs. Netscape is that the reason the TOS was tossed out by the court and ruled in favor of the defendant was because of the fact that the TOS were not conspicuous before the defendant downloaded the free software.
If you look at the EULA/TOS given to you when you try to access Eve Online for the first time upon launching the client, you will see the EULA/TOS pop up in front of you and it will NOT let you continue unless you accept what is written and it will not let you accept unless you read what is written by virtue of the requirement to scroll down the whole text in order to accept. This implies that you have READ the EULA/TOS and therefore you agree to it. Therefore, this is a legally binding contract. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |

Ares Renton
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:04:00 -
[203] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Aren't alliance mails those things sent to dozens of anonymous strangers at the same time?
"You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms."
Looks like you agreed already
Actually, I always click decline, so I'm not bound by that. |

Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:06:00 -
[204] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote: This is from my business law class here in US.
Your business class is wrong, it does not hold up in a court of law in the US and both in the EU and states like California it violates existing law and is therefore not legal or considered a signed contract.
Again... sorry!
edit: They are allowed to deny you service, FOR ANY reason (with a few exceptions,) according to existing law, regardless of TOS and EULA. Anything they can do is in accordance with actual law, the rest of EULA and TOS is not. Of course I can demand a refund if you deny me service.
Again, you are wrong!
edit 2, let me explain, EULA and TOS is information, whatever is legal in the EULA and TOS informed you of the law, at best case scenario they can be a means to make sure you cannot deny knowing about existing laws. It is however not a contract, it is impossible to be a contract, it can't be a contract, EVER! Anything else in a TOS and EULA that is not in accordance with existing law for everything has no meaning. |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:09:00 -
[205] - Quote
Fannie Maes wrote:Henry Haphorn wrote: This is from my business law class here in US.
Your business class is wrong, it does not hold up in a court of law in the US and both in the EU and states like California it violates existing law and is therefore not legal or considered a signed contract. Again... sorry!
Can you please post a link to the case, or at least name the case for me so I can Google it, that mentions that a EULA/TOS of any kind is not a legally-binding contract?
===EDIT===
Read the source I'm citing at the bottom of my post that consists of a wall of text. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:10:00 -
[206] - Quote
Ares Renton wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Aren't alliance mails those things sent to dozens of anonymous strangers at the same time?
"You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms."
Looks like you agreed already Actually, I always click decline, so I'm not bound by that.
Then how are you able to play the Eve Client in the first place? Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |

Benny Ohu
The Lazy Dragoons True Apathy
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:15:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ares Renton wrote:Actually, I always click decline, so I'm not bound by that. I don't really want to get into the discussion, but playing the game after bypassing or declining the EULA would be illegal, or implies acceptance...
... so trying to sue CCP for breaching your privacy would be the stupidest of all dumbarse ideas
Also Fannie I think part of the EULA is that any dispute has to be in a court in Iceland |

Fannie Maes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:19:00 -
[208] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Ares Renton wrote:Actually, I always click decline, so I'm not bound by that. I don't really want to get into the discussion, but playing the game after bypassing or declining the EULA would be illegal, or implies acceptance... ... so trying to sue CCP for breaching your privacy would be the stupidest of all dumbarse ideas Also Fannie I think part of the EULA is that any dispute has to be in a court in Iceland
A) it is not illegal, but pointless perhaps CCP would object and deny that person service but they would lose a complaint for reimbursement.
B) Not true at all, if they lose a dispute and break law in a country where they offer service in let's say the UK then they can enjoy being denied to conduct business in all of EU even. Same goes for the US, you can file a suit in any state there, it would hurt Business operating there.
edit; in any case this whole thread is stupid and pointless, OP is wrong and the ones arguing that EULA and TOS is a binding contract are also wrong, peace.
PS: Your business class is wrong! |

Benny Ohu
The Lazy Dragoons True Apathy
102
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:20:00 -
[209] - Quote
Actually I really really don't want to talk about this why did I ever reply to this thread
You're all wrong, all of you
And that's the truth right there |

Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:29:00 -
[210] - Quote
Fannie Maes wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:Ares Renton wrote:Actually, I always click decline, so I'm not bound by that. I don't really want to get into the discussion, but playing the game after bypassing or declining the EULA would be illegal, or implies acceptance... ... so trying to sue CCP for breaching your privacy would be the stupidest of all dumbarse ideas Also Fannie I think part of the EULA is that any dispute has to be in a court in Iceland A) it is not illegal, but pointless  perhaps CCP would object and deny that person service but they would lose a complaint for reimbursement. B) Not true at all, if they lose a dispute and break law in a country where they offer service in let's say the UK then they can enjoy being denied to conduct business in all of EU even. Same goes for the US, you can file a suit in any state there, it would hurt Business operating there. edit; in any case this whole thread is stupid and pointless, OP is wrong and the ones arguing that EULA and TOS is a binding contract are also wrong, peace. PS: Your business class is wrong!
Please cite the case or I will ignore everything you said up until now and from now on. Welcome to Eve Online. Don't expect people to be nice to you. |
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