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Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.30 09:47:00 -
[31]
I'm not sure this is an 'exploit', but a reasonable fix would be that running into another ship causes damage, first shields and then armor, and then hull...
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.03.30 10:12:00 -
[32]
Exploit, and bumping should have been fixed along time ago.
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Piotr Anatolev
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.03.30 10:17:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Reina Muerte ...Not because the general population of eve had a problem with it...
I suggest you dont take for granted that the general population of eve WOULD have a problem with this.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:00:00 -
[34]
I cant imagine a fair bumping behavior which wouldn't be an invitation for abuse. 1) The suggestion of damaging ships on bumping would generate people parking their carriers in front of stations where other smaller ships crash into on approach the gate/station. 2) Inability of small ships to bump bigger away would cause traffic stucks in heavily used routes and would be also a party for some kind of people. 3) only the complete absence of any collision system is not abusable in any way but is it what we want??
And for heavy outlaws in high sec areas I think its intended to be, otherwise CCP would surely do something about it -> proposed to be & part of the game. Deal with it. All secured places (even our real life cities/states) have security holes which are used by criminals to get into them. I personally dont want an absolutely secure places where only careless carebears live, this would be just boring.
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Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:04:00 -
[35]
Or, now that I think about it, in addition to damage, the ability to push ships should be based on ship mass.
Fly a frigate into a exhumer? The exhumer isn't going to budge.
Fly an exhumer into a frigate? Assuming you can actually get manage to do this, the frigate is almost certainly going to bounce around a bit.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Khalia Nestune Or, now that I think about it, in addition to damage, the ability to push ships should be based on ship mass.
Fly a frigate into a exhumer? The exhumer isn't going to budge.
Fly an exhumer into a frigate? Assuming you can actually get manage to do this, the frigate is almost certainly going to bounce around a bit.
well what happens if some ****s park their freighters straight in front of the stations??
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Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:25:00 -
[37]
So... what?
1) You are approaching a station. You can dock anywhere around the station as long as you get close enough.
2) You are leaving a station. You've got the 'invulnerability' timeout as you leave (whatever the delay factor is, I forget now - 20 seconds?) and you fly right through those ships.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:41:00 -
[38]
ok I've never realized my ship flies through others while invul phase. I'm always trying to fly away and get bounced all over at jita stations.
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silken mouth
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Posted - 2009.03.30 11:48:00 -
[39]
it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so...
however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions:
Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank...
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Nicola Sardonicus
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Posted - 2009.03.31 08:04:00 -
[40]
Not an expolit at all, and brilliant tactics. Whoever did this is a hero as far as I am concerned, and I hope it happens more often. Squadrons of Hulks pillaging and raping their way through the asteroid belts of high-sec leave little behind for anyone else; many of these are macro-miners to boot. Making their lives a little more miserable and dangerous is a good thing. ____________________________________
War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. |
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.03.31 18:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Exploit, and bumping should have been fixed along time ago.
I agree whole heartedly. Bumping should make damage to both ships. Armageddon + MWD == destroyed Hulk with one strike. 
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:06:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nicola Sardonicus Not an expolit at all, and brilliant tactics. Whoever did this is a hero as far as I am concerned, and I hope it happens more often. Squadrons of Hulks pillaging and raping their way through the asteroid belts of high-sec leave little behind for anyone else; many of these are macro-miners to boot. Making their lives a little more miserable and dangerous is a good thing.
Go back to C&P where you belong to crow over killing barges.
I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences.
This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics.
dont you think CCP would just disable guns in high sec if it should be completely safe? Criminals are definetely a part of the game mechanics. The cost of implementing like this one
if( getCurrentSystem().getSecurityState() > 0.5 ) { foreach( getShip().getWeapons() as weapon ) weapon.disable(); }
or something like that would go towards zero for securing highsec, however its not wanted -> not an exploit.
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Aidan Drake
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:26:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Katarlia Simov This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics.
dont you think CCP would just disable guns in high sec if it should be completely safe? Criminals are definetely a part of the game mechanics. The cost of implementing like this one
if( getCurrentSystem().getSecurityState() > 0.5 ) { foreach( getShip().getWeapons() as weapon ) weapon.disable(); }
or something like that would go towards zero for securing highsec, however its not wanted -> not an exploit.
- You can wardec in hi sec - The post you quoted suggests nerfing suicide ganking further, however, they are referencing "this particular tactic" being an exploit, which in this case involves bumping as a disabling tactic. A hostile action which has no sec impact. - Pseudo code does not make you clever
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:31:00 -
[45]
the fact something has no consequences does not mean its illegal/exploit automatically.
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BrysonBennington
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:33:00 -
[46]
Most likely they found an entrance in your .5 system via a wormhole. They could have found worm in 0.0 space that connected them to your .5 system. Concord would never have know that they were even there until your ship had been attacked.
This portion is a very brilliant tactic although I am in complete agreement with them taking your ship out like that. I haven't as yet come across this type of 0.0 pilot but have dealt with high sector pirates that use local neutrals to gain CONCORD aggro on you when all of a sudden you pop a smart bomb on them and they can't beat ya.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:38:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 31/03/2009 19:39:21 you (as -10 criminal) come into high sec using a pod, somewhere aside all concord presence is a friend waiting for you in a ship, you warp to him, he ejects, you get in the ship -> voila
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Liitar
Project Mayhem Band of Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.04.01 02:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences.
I work harder to suicide gank than you do to AFK mine
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Lusulpher
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.04.01 05:19:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 01/04/2009 05:21:45 1 Smaller ship bumping larger ship at higher than usual speed should cause damage to the smaller hull. No aggro.
2 Bump reactions(frigs spinning BSs PLEASE) need to be adjusted for all ships.
3 Ram needs to be a viable combat option.<link to lost thread>
4 Fleets need to be flagged for assisting as a gang network. Send message that fleet will go global, send message to accomplices(unwilling or otherwise) that they will be dropped when(within 10seconds) accomplice engages(do they WANT to stay in fleet?). Aggro is transferable when ganging with a flagged criminal(warning provided).
5 Anyone in a Wartarget fleet has an orange version of the wartarget tag on the overview. The current system could not be MORE confusing.
6 Aggression shows in LOCAL WINDOW to the person who has their stuff stolen/blown away.(Red timer in portrait please...)
7 When are we getting licenses to bountyhunt?. Hunt low-rated people in Lowsec NEXT to guns and Bountyheads in Hisec WITH podding! Bountyheads have Killaccess on these higher licensed bountyhunters...BRING IT CCP. Some of us want to do some crowd control...
8 Scale loot drops for PVP to reduce loot as more ships become involved.
Also, you got exploited buddy. I'd tell you to always keep local open, but Cloak >>> EVERY TACTIC since speednerf.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.04.01 07:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Liitar
Originally by: Katarlia Simov I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences.
I work harder to suicide gank than you do to AFK mine
I don't mine :) And I have never mined. But thanks for playing.
Amazingly enough there are more people in the world than just miners and gankers.
I happen to think that being able to live in high sec when you have a below -5 sec status breaks the game mechanics. If you want to be a criminal and still live in high sec you should have to do something to mitigate the sec hits you take to carry on doing it. To me, -5 means no ships in high sec for you, because you've clearly shown you can't be trusted to obey the laws.
Sorry i have a different opinion to you 
If you wanna suicide gank, thats your own time to waste spoiling other peoples fun. If you must, then enjoy. Its never likely to happen to me so knock yourself out. But don't make out like its hard or that your targets can protect themselves.
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Allamarr
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:45:00 -
[51]
I appreciate every ones reply's so far... It seems to be giving a very balanced view to this situation. Though there are a couple things I would like to reiterate.
This discussion is not intended to propose how CCP fix these problems. If you wish to include that feel free but please also address the main point. Which is weather or not the tactic used was an exploitative one.
Also as a reminder CCP had NOT DECIDED weather or not this TACTIC is an exploit which is why they recommended I start this tread. Philosophies like.. "If its possible its fair" Don't work as many hundreds and possibly thousands of players have been banned over the years for using what was determined to be an exploit or and exploitative tactic.
The fact is that everyone has a right to attack anyone anywhere in the universe of eve... However in any empire space there are consequences. In high sec space the consequence is intended to be that the aggressors have their ships destroyed and their security status lowered. The end result being that they are effectively banned from bringing a ship into high security space. If this is the expected consequence and the player is satisfied with it then let him shoot who he wants. But after his security status is sufficiently lowered to the point to where he can't fly a ship into high security space on his own ... Is he circumventing game mechanics or the intended penalty of his previous actions by having an alt or another player bring a ship to him at a safe spot or by any other means finding a way into high security space with an intact ship. Also... Is the player who was most vital to the TACTIC who provided the warp in and bumped the ship attempting to flee out of alignment with the station circumventing the intended penalty by avoiding having his ship destroyed.
Thx again for all the replies... keep them coming !! :)
Allamarr
P.S.
I don't know if any of you have ever used a macro or not but I have. I am a computer tech by profession and while I can imagine how to use a macro for some very simple operations in eve it is in my opinion that it is impossible to make a successful Macro Mining Hulk that just goes out and clears belts for you all day. So while I'm sure that there are people out there smarter than me that might be able to figure out a rudimentary system of some sort the fact remains that the IDEA that everyone or even the majority of Hulk and Mackinaw miners in high sec are all running Macros is preposterous. It just a myth a legend to make less experience players hate the more experienced ones who have the skill to fly ship that they can't or to make pirates feel better about killing relatively defenseless targets. And if anyone actually believes that they are only targeting macro miners and can't be otherwise convinced then just warp in on top of them and lock them up... wait about 30 seconds before you fire and I guarantee that 99% of your targets will be long gone. Myself included which means that they aren't macro miners and weren't even afk. So don't kid yourself and if you have the nerve for a real fight fly up to these hulk and ask for one. Most of them will go trade ships and show you who your daddy is.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:05:00 -
[52]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/04/2009 02:09:16 exploit.
on a different note. as a player you can lock another player in under 0,5 sec if he is in a frig. why does it take concords "super" ships/guns longer to do this? if you are under -5 you simply should just get instant locked, ecm,and scrambled by concord and then kos
edit: why is there no concord guns in the belts and at the moons/planets? ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |

CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: silken mouth it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so...
however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions:
Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank...
as i remember ccp stated that bumping is not allowed as a valid tactic and is now a exploit. pretty sure of it, but could be wrong ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |

Meatball Enema
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Posted - 2009.04.02 03:43:00 -
[54]
howabout just letting anyone shoot someone who is flagged as a global criminal - gate guns will shoot them on site, why not us?
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Martineski
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:11:00 -
[55]
ok after reading all of this i have come to a few conclusions, as i too recently lost hulk to highsec gankers near a stargate. Gate Guns need to become 2 volley ship kills to prevent mass damage while concord arrives. changes need to be made so that allowing flashy reds to dock in an orca flags the orca, cause if you look at it, the orca is aiding outlaws. the same issue was taken care of by allowing fleet mates to kill off logistics ships that were repping outlaws or opposing war targets. the bumping mechanic does need some work as having a frigate throw a BS off course just seems wrong. throwing a tennis ball at a wall is gonna send the ball back at you, not knock the wall over.
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Nicola Sardonicus
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Posted - 2009.04.02 07:50:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Originally by: silken mouth it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so...
however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions:
Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank...
as i remember ccp stated that bumping is not allowed as a valid tactic and is now a exploit. pretty sure of it, but could be wrong
Let's see a citation, threadlink or something then. I've never seen anything or anybody saying that bumping is an exploit. ____________________________________
War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. |

CareBeer
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Posted - 2009.04.02 08:36:00 -
[57]
Suicide ganking should have consequences
Yes i know its a pain to grind the sec status back up but thats not my problem
CCP should implement a check whenever a pilot enters a ship in highsec and notify concord if the pilots sec status is below the allowed sec status, however i also believe pilots should be given time to escape to other system in cases like this
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Randgris
The Bastards
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:36:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Randgris on 02/04/2009 09:43:05 Edited by: Randgris on 02/04/2009 09:39:50 funny to read all the carebear replies which have no clue about the game mechanics
1) a criminal can enter any highsec system with any (non capital) ship 2) the faction police (not concord) will attack these outlaws on sight except if it is a pod. any fast aligning ship will have a decent chance to evade them. faction police is much less powerful than concord 3) gate or station sentry guns don't shoot at someone without aggression, even if it's an outlaw. sentry guns don't shoot at pods 4) concord will only respond to a criminal aggression in highsec, regardless of players security status. avoiding getting killed by concord is an exploit 5) jumping into highsec with a global criminal flag will result in the destruction of your ship (pods excluded) by concord
so within these rules it is perfectly possible that the attackers just jumped into the 0.5 system from lowsec in their fast aligning cruisers.
they had no aggression timer so only the faction police spawned and they avoided this by warping as soon as possible. they then ganked your ship and in return, their ships got destroyed by concord.
hope this clears up the current game mechanics and why this attack was within boundaries of said mechanics ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D |

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.04.02 09:47:00 -
[59]
Huh, seeing how wild guesses and misinterpretations are running amok here, I guess I should clarify some details.
So first of all, I'm the Anathema and the Omen in the story.
What happened is this.
A friend logs in an alt to see if there are any hulks in Kador 0.5 high sec, quite a lot of 0.5s in a heap there. He finds several in one belt, so we head out, anathema, omen and 2 thoraxes. All but anathema are outlaws. This particular system is 5 jumps inside high sec. Important thing to note here, and apparently most of you dont know basic game mechanics of this sort, an outlaw jumping into high sec will NOT trigger sentry guns or concord to attack him, he will only trigger faction police. These spawn pretty much the moment you jump in. However they are rather slow on locking and a cruiser will warp off before getting warp scrambled. It is how game works.
So, anathema goes ahead while cruisers wait in last low sec system. Anahtema finds the reported hulks and closes in to provide a warp in point. This was rather clumsily done in that particular case and I got uncloaked for a second IIRC. 
Cruisers head out to the system in question. They have 5 jumps to do through high sec. Every time we jump, amarr police spawns, but we warp off too fast for them to stop us. Also we are jumping blindly with no immediate scout, meaning just about any player in a t1 frigate with a warp disruptor can mess us up if he happens to be on gate we jumped through. But since our ships are cheap we don't really care too much.
As we all land on the final gate and jump, the squad commander gangwarps all cruisers on the covert ops who is still sitting 3km away from the target. Now in this particular case target started moving as cruisers were in warp - so I bumped him. It turned out he was not warping away or at least stopped his warp when I tried to set view on him to see if this is the case, but since I was rather safe than sorry I did it only after bumping. What is an exploit here I'm not sure since bumping stuff with cov ops to prevent it from warping is something done every day in PvP community, especially against people aligned in safespots or missions. Also the fact a second hulk warped in at this moment doesnt really support the OP's claim he was trying to warp out, but this is IMO totally irrelevant.
The 3 cruisers land, 1 of us misheared the primary and shot the wrong hulk (that is the one who survived in half armor) the other 2 kill the OP. Now finally we have global criminal flag and concord that all of you are so fast at invoking finally has the reason to get involved. Since we were already chased by faction police, the 2 spawns between themselves rip us to bits seconds after the hulk died. We warp our pods out, cov ops picks up your pithi c-type. 
Now finally with global criminal countdown, we head in pods back home. And that's how it's done. It's quite simple really. There are no exploits involved that I'm aware of. Jumping outlaw into high sec triggers faction police, they are as effective as they are at stopping that outlaw from warping off to next gate - it's how game works. Concord only comes when the outlaw actually commits a crime - and it happened. Concord killed our ships as intended, sadly for OP (but not for us) only after he died. The fact our ships are cheaper than his isn't really our fault nor is it an exploit.
Anyway, that's pretty much the explanation of what happened in this particular case. We killed a total of 10 or so hulks so far in this way. Mostly in first 2 days of trying, later it became rather repetitive and dull. 
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Lubont
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Airborne Legoholic I agree completely with what you have said Allamar, Exploit 100%.
This could be solved pretty simply too, all you have to do is make it so that when you steal from a can, shoot another person, etc. Anyone in your fleet goes flashy red with them. In Highsec that would mean, if you shoot me, and you have a neutral buddy sitting there in fleet, he goes flashy and gets Concorded as well. You'd also have to change the warning to "This will also cause fleet members to go global".
The sad thing is there will probably be people who say: "That can't happen, because what if your in a ten man group, and one decides to go shoot someone and you all get killed for it?"
I say: "Pick better friends to travel with, if they act like that without your consent, what kind of friend are they?"
Anyway like I said, what you explained happens a lot, and has happened to me as well. This kind of Bull**** needs to be hampered more than it already has.
I think you should go play "Simon says" and let eve evolve in a exiting game, and no just complaine and complaine and complaine about everything when you get killed Babys
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