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Allamarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:22:00 - [1] I'm in a .5 system the other day mining with in a hulk.. An anathema de-cloaks as he rams into me of me and 4 seconds later his two friends lad on top of me in light cruisers with nothing but plasters and heat sinks on. I have a pretty heavily tanked hulk with a nice faction shield booster and invulnerability field II but they slice through it like hot butter and start on my friends hulk right next to me getting half way through his armor before concord arrived and killed them. Then their anathema scoops the loot and jets. My hands are tied... if i knew what they were doing I can't shoot the anathema because technically it hasn't digressed me. I cant warp off because the keeps bumping me out of alignment. And when his friends arrive i can't even use something like ecm burst to break their locks because that would affect the so far neutral anathema again and still gets me concorded. Problem... The attackers both had over -9 security status so how did they get into a .5 with a ship intacked. They didn't fly it into the system or the gate guns would have killed them. They didn't jump clone into a station and undock the station guns would have shot them. And from looking at the kill board they had no tank at all. So even if they had a friend with higher sec status bring the ships to them in a safe spot he is still an accomplice. CCP says that concord will kill the attacker and their accomplices but they left their warp in neutral anathema alive to scoop the loot. They couldn't have completed this maneuver without him yet he didn't get the same punishment of loosing their ships. So what i see as an exploit is that these two pirates got ships in a high sec system when game mechanics clearly tries to prevent them from doing this and that their accomplice didn't receive the death penalty along with them for the crime they committed. This is the equivalent of letting an armed known psychopath walk into a police station and start waving his gun around... When the innocent bystanders ask for the police to do something they say "We can't do anything till they actually shot one of you". How stupid is that.. So the psychopath shoots a civilian in the head and another in the arm before the police finally gun him down. But they do nothing to the psycho's friend who handed him the gun right in front of them... no he is free to rob the dead corpses and go on his way. So tactical exploit? Or am I just a soar looser who needs to get over it? You tell me!!
Black Otis Caldari Vanguard Frontiers Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:24:00 - [2] EXPLOIT all the way... CCP expects you too just sit there as if in front of a firing squad for anyone who chooses to attack you anywhere in high sec and if you try to defend yourself and prevent what you KNOW is about to happen they kill you instead of your would be aggressor.
Marika Sol Gallente Spazzed Out Enterprises	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:31:00 - [3] Edited by: Marika Sol on 27/03/2009 18:32:40 Exploit I've lost ships the same way and while I agree that if a person wants to sacrifice their sec status for a suicide gank thats their choice but CCP says that anyone helping them dies too but they limit that to anyone "remote repping" or something like that and ignore their accomplices who they couldn't do this without, namely the person giving them a warp in or scanning your cargo to see what it might be worth or sitting there ready to scoop the loot when their friend dies. You know if the real world the driver goes to jail along with the gun handling bank robber. Are we to imagine that in the make believe society of the eve universe people in general civilized society are that naive. And besides... whats the point of loosing sec status and having gate guns fire on you when you enter high sec if not to keep you out... and if that's the case then how can they say it isn't an Exploit for people to find a tricky way around it. And if it really is ok then what is the point of lowering sec status... just to make it slightly more difficult for them to do what they were doing anyway? If that's the case then we should all be pirates. But either way CCP shouldn't have double standards. They are just trying to keep their pirating customers coming back and buying another months subscription and making themselves into hypocrites while they are at it. If I don't bother YOU, DON'T bother ME.
Kjelthorne	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:37:00 - [4] If their standing is below -5.0, they should be KOS without retribution anywhere, anytime. In fact the gate guns should be shooting them on site. If that's not the case then it is an exploit and CCP will need to fix it. That's the POINT of being -5, anyone can shoot you anywhere.
Nephilius Caldari Grey Legionaires	Posted - 2009.03.27 18:43:00 - [5] Heck, fix the bumping would be a good start. Had some r-tard in a frigate bump me over and over, trying to get me to aggress him while I was mining. Knocked me 23km from my original point...methinks bashing a little ship into a bigger one should collapse the small one into a shape similiar to a Honda Civic ramming a train. But that could just be me. I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month.
Thorson Wiles Minmatar M3 Co-Op	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Kjelthorne If their standing is below -5.0, they should be KOS without retribution anywhere, anytime. In fact the gate guns should be shooting them on site. If that's not the case then it is an exploit and CCP will need to fix it. That's the POINT of being -5, anyone can shoot you anywhere. Pods can always get through, since NPCs won't fire on them. Buddy/Alt with Orca and good standings drop ships to the gankers at safespots. Was a big thread shortly after QR when this first happened. (This has also happened before QR with alts that just spend some extra time ferrying ships to the safespot)
Airborne Legoholic Caldari Caldari Innovative Sciences and Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:18:00 - [7] I agree completely with what you have said Allamar, Exploit 100%. This could be solved pretty simply too, all you have to do is make it so that when you steal from a can, shoot another person, etc. Anyone in your fleet goes flashy red with them. In Highsec that would mean, if you shoot me, and you have a neutral buddy sitting there in fleet, he goes flashy and gets Concorded as well. You'd also have to change the warning to "This will also cause fleet members to go global". The sad thing is there will probably be people who say: "That can't happen, because what if your in a ten man group, and one decides to go shoot someone and you all get killed for it?" I say: "Pick better friends to travel with, if they act like that without your consent, what kind of friend are they?" Anyway like I said, what you explained happens a lot, and has happened to me as well. This kind of Bull**** needs to be hampered more than it already has.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:32:00 - [8] yes, bumping is a silly thing, the bump effect should depend on the ratio of the mass difference, if the smaller is not even destroyed! But the other aggro thing - one shoot, all die is rubbish in my opinion. This would mean the end of fleet gangs and turn into bunches of neutral guys where your proposed aggro mechanics would fail again.
Airborne Legoholic Caldari Caldari Innovative Sciences and Engineering	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Robert Caldera yes, bumping is a silly thing, the bump effect should depend on the ratio of the mass difference, if the smaller is not even destroyed! But the other aggro thing - one shoot, all die is rubbish in my opinion. This would mean the end of fleet gangs and turn into bunches of neutral guys where your proposed aggro mechanics would fail again. Did you not read my part about choosing a better group of people? Sometimes what happens in eve should not be controlled by CCP, sometimes you need to use the brain you were born with and not gang with people who do stupid things that you yourself did not intend to do.
hawtalt pr0nmistress	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:45:00 - [10] EXPLOIT maybe but there is no way really to build game mechanics to fix it. If we work with your example, unless the Anathema was fleeted with the bad guys there is no way for the server to know he is associated with them so if something came in to combat this, people would just not be fleeted together. The only way to fix this is to speed up concord response on a player with outlaw status if they get into a ship... Or, you could not mine in a 0.5 near lowsec now you know this can happen or just get mates to protect you and pod the bad guys when they do it again. Then you can do bad things to their frozen corpses.

Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.27 20:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Airborne Legoholic Did you not read my part about choosing a better group of people? Sometimes what happens in eve should not be controlled by CCP, sometimes you need to use the brain you were born with and not gang with people who do stupid things that you yourself did not intend to do. sure I did but I dont think its reasonable solution because I guess people would rather fly unfleeted together instead of taking responsibility for others.
Allamarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 22:03:00 - [12] In my humble opinion the simple solution to this problem is... If the persons security status would cause them to get their ship popped for going through a gate or exiting a station they they should get concorded as soon as they get in a ship anywhere in that system... That way even if they get a ship brought to them by a friend or alt at a safe spot or grab it from their corp hanger at a POS as soon as they sit in the pilots seat concord should respond to that the same as they would at a gate or station. It would be the equivalent to taking the gun away from a known criminal.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.27 22:06:00 - [13] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 27/03/2009 22:06:07 nnnaaahhhh I would not like this, high sec should not become carebear fortress.
Mayobe	Posted - 2009.03.27 22:11:00 - [14] Edited by: Mayobe on 27/03/2009 22:11:56 Not an exploit. They came up with a plan and smuggled themselves in to execute it. Life happens. Take it up with CONCORD, not CCP. Hisec is not 'safe'. It's just policed.
Imertu Solientai Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.27 22:26:00 - [15] This is NOT an exploit, as has been clearly stated by CCP.
Allamarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 23:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Imertu Solientai This is NOT an exploit, as has been clearly stated by CCP. If that's true then you should let them know that they stated it because all they will tell me is that suicide ganking isn't an exploit not that sneaking an criminal into high sec and giving him a ship isn't and exploit. Which is what this thread is all about. It was actually one of the GM's who responded to my petition about this most recent act who suggested I start this discussion as they don not seem to currently have a stand on weather or not it is a "Tactical Exploit" So the question still remains for discussion... is the Tactic used to circumvent game mechanics an exploit or not? Therefore I request reasonable debate either for or against... not blatant references to supposed statement that either CCP never made or that their own GM's don't seem to know about.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.03.27 23:42:00 - [17] Concord doesn't provide 100% safety and they don't provide protection. Concord provides consequences. As distastefull as I find the tactics they used I would not call it an exploit. I do believe Concord should stop insurance payouts on suicide attacks to make them less profitable. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Fyzikz Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.27 23:56:00 - [18] Edited by: Fyzikz on 27/03/2009 23:56:24 Simple solution. If a character is a -.5 sec status or lower comes into high sec in a pod one of 2 things should happen. 1. Concord Pods him.. execution works (at least with Amarr.. hee hee) 2. His/Her ability to get into a ship outside of a station is revoked by concord until he/she returns to low sec system. Meaning: A. He cannot get into a ship from a pod in the game (actual in game lockout) or B. Once he Enters a ship concord is immediatly notified and begins pursuit, this would limit the pirates ability to work these game mechanics as he/she would be in a race against concord one they board the ship rather then sitting in system at some random planet getting the whole group organized. If B. then the criminal act should trace back to the player that gave them the ship should it have been removed form an Orca or an orca allowed them use of the fitting station even though they were an obvious flashy red (since they are enganged in a global criminal act boarding aship in high sec) pie rate. edit: Ohh yeah.. definite exploit
Allairn	Posted - 2009.03.28 00:54:00 - [19] Well I have to say that I have a problem with the ship that remains neutral while bumping you to keep you from warping that is an exploit as there are no consiquences. He has just taken part in hostilities against a ship and entirely avoided even a dent to his sec status. The - sec status pirates acquring ships in high sec is not, as there is no reason why they couldn't pay someone to put a ship out in space. This of course has it's risks. Unfortunantly I do not see a way to solve this issue with out making legitimate piracy impossible, one possibility is to have ships in the same fleet as those performing criminal activities to take a sec hit and not draw aggro from concord, unfortunantly they would just leave the fleet as soon as their buddies warped in. That is the main problem with most possibilities that would involve fleeting, they can be avoided by leaving the fleet.
Anton Cyldragen	Posted - 2009.03.28 04:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Allamarr They didn't fly it into the system or the gate guns would have killed them. They didn't jump clone into a station and undock the station guns would have shot them. gate and station guns do not attack people with outlaw status unless they have a global criminal countdown(which is not the same as being outlaw gcc is a 15min countdown from aggression on a neutral target) so my guess is they jumped in from low sec and warped in "light cruisers" that could get away from the gate they jumped in through b4 concord showed up to stop them. then they killed you and the stuff with the can is legit so don't bother... accept that it is not possible to program concord for every event and trying to do so would cause more problems then it would solve.

Ivy Scorn Amarr Nethro Ore Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.03.28 08:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Anton Cyldragen would cause more problems then it would solve. If they were to podkill pirats in highsec they'd have to add some 900k backup clones in lowsec in case the pirat 'forgot' to move his medical clone out of highsec. Otherwise the forums would be flooded with tears from stuck pirats
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.03.28 10:33:00 - [22] How about adapt mofo ? And not an exploit. Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal lemme go for that 8 pixels - val
J Valkor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.03.28 12:05:00 - [23] Oh man, can you shoot at people with that low of sec status in high sec without penalty? I don't see it very often but holy **** that would be fun.
Anton Cyldragen	Posted - 2009.03.28 21:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Ivy Scorn Originally by: Anton Cyldragen would cause more problems then it would solve. If they were to podkill pirats in highsec they'd have to add some 900k backup clones in lowsec in case the pirat 'forgot' to move his medical clone out of highsec. Otherwise the forums would be flooded with tears from stuck pirats so your solution is to make concord appear instantly(actually 0 seconds) and pod the outlaw thus trapping him in the low sec that he went negative in? if so that's a stupid idea. if you want concord to pod people who agress in high sec after concord destroys their ship then force them to be stuck in some random low sec pocket. that's a stupid idea because there is no difference to being stuck in some high sec station and being stuck in a dead low sec system
NightF0x Gallente Intergalactic League of Terrorists	Posted - 2009.03.28 22:16:00 - [25] The carebear river of tears is flowing wildly out of control in this thread. What happened is NOT an exploit. NPC's or Concord will never ever shoot a pod so they can get into a system. Just because they out-smarted you doesn't mean that they are cheaters. They had support, much like what could happen in real-life if someone escapes prison. Not everyone out there has your best interest in mind. Hi-sec isn't meant to be risk free. Every time that you undock you risk loosing your ship. You're best option now is to go back to New Characters forum and start reading on basic game mechanics. Maybe even read the Criminal forum to find out new tactics. ------------------------------------
Allamarr	Posted - 2009.03.29 00:09:00 - [26] Come on guys we are getting way off topic again. The intention of this thread is not to suggest how CCP should solve the problem if this is ever determined to be an exploit but rather simply to discuss weather the "TACTIC" used in the opening discussion should be considered and exploit. To recap: What is the TACTIC. Simple a couple of player pirates with such bad security status that they shouldn't be able to fly a ship into high sec space somehow get ships in. Doesn't matter how they did it but they are there. They now use a high security status accomplice to find them a target. Once they have the target they repeatedly bump the target out of alignment so they can't warp off while their pirate friends use him as a warp in. They then kill the intended target before concord arrives and kills them. But not all of the involved parties have their ships destroyed. Because bumping and providing a warping isn't consider and "aggressive" act by concord. So after you die and his friends the pirates die he is still there to scoop the loot and make off with it. The reason this tactic is in question: The pirates seemed to have found a way of circumventing game mechanics to get themselves ship in high sec space. I can think of a number of ways but I dont want to give anyone ideas. The point is the game clearly tries to prevent this. Also their accomplice who gives the warp in and scoops the loot was a vital part of their attack even though the never fired a shot... They likely couldn't have done it without him as their prey would have easily fled without being bumped or when they warped in at a much greater range than their 'glass cannons' could fire at. Yet this accomplice doesn't get killed by concord. Cons... It seems to many to be a clear violation of game mechanics and the GM who answered my original petition on this matter even said that it isn't decided weather or not the TACTIC is an exploit. He then suggested I start this treat so please dont go pretending to quote CCP as "HAVING CLEARLY STATED" because they have not made up their minds. Pros... Many also have the opinion that "If its possible its fair". That may be true for now but lets face it if CCP had that attitude then No One would have EVER been banned for Exploiting. So yes it is possible to exploit. So the question remains for discussion is this TACTIC an exploit?
Reina Muerte	Posted - 2009.03.29 00:26:00 - [27] Im with you Allamarr. I think this is totally an exploit. But who cares. CCP isn't going to do anything about any exploit unless it cost them money. Like the recent POS exploit. Those people where making isk hand over fist with that and no doubt funding the many isk selling web sites out there. Which in turn cost CCP money because who's going to buy a time code for $35 that you can trade for 600 mill isk when you can buy 2 billion isk for the same price from some web site. So they took action yea. Why? Because it served their interest. Not because the general population of eve had a problem with it or for that matter even knew anything about it. So I'll help all of you fight back. I can tell you how to get concord there before you get attacked. Unfortunately this pretty much only works for those attacked in an asteroid belt and I haven't figured out a good protection for gate gankers. But that's at least half the problem right :) Oh and you need at least two people to do this. So there you are about to go out on a mining op with your corp. Maybe two of you in retrievers or 10 of you in hulks. All it takes is one person with a spare slot on their account. You create an alt. A throw away. Don't get attached he is going to die a lot. And leave him in a noob corp you dont want him in yours. You move this noob alt to the area where you do you mining at. When you get ready to go you log the alt on and fly him out to the belt where you are going to be working. Nothing special just take his noob ship. Now have one of your hulks fly out to the belt. As soon as the hulk lands use the noob alt to attack the hulk. It wont even scratch the shields and about 10 seconds later Concord will arrive and take out your noob. No biggie. Fly his pod back to the station and log off. Log your main character back on hope in a hulk or whatever and go join the mining op. Now you have concord on location protecting you. If gankers show up #1 hopefully they will be smart enough to know better than to try anything with Concord there. #2 If for some reason they don't notice concord sitting there because they are blind or stupid then they get popped as soon as their first weapon activates. So I hope this help keep carebears alive and kills a lot of gankers or at least makes them go broke because they have no skills besides stealing candy from a baby. And before you get any smart remarks about that you sorry pirates try flying up to my hulk and asking for a real fight. I'll go trade ships and give you one sir. LOL now who's the carebear Most Sincerely, Reina Muerte
Mistress Frome SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.03.30 04:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Allamarr The reason this tactic is in question: The pirates seemed to have found a way of circumventing game mechanics to get themselves ship in high sec space. Being in high sec as an outlaw isn't against game mechanics. Being in high sec as an outlaw in a ship isn't against game mechanics either. ---
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.03.30 06:39:00 - [29] Sad but true, this was simply a cunning use of game mechanics to score a couple of cheap kills. You can configure overview settings so that people with low security status will show up in Local with yellow or red skulls. If you do that, and simply run back to station when you see skulls in local, you'll save yourself the trouble of losing your expensive mining ship.
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis SIRRIUS.	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:46:00 - [30] This one time at band camp i heard some people use their local window and their game notifications which told them when flashies were in local. Those same crazy people were actually playing the game not alt-tabbing back in from Hello Kitty Online And then this other time at band camp i heard those guys warped off to avoid getting shot. It was prety crazy they had liek friends and scouts in this MMORPG to protect a 100+mil ship?!? Also.. if requested changes to podding crims does stick, then ALL npc's should pod players, including mission and belt rats after they pop your ship.

Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:47:00 - [31] I'm not sure this is an 'exploit', but a reasonable fix would be that running into another ship causes damage, first shields and then armor, and then hull...
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.03.30 10:12:00 - [32] Exploit, and bumping should have been fixed along time ago.
Piotr Anatolev Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.30 10:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Reina Muerte ...Not because the general population of eve had a problem with it... I suggest you dont take for granted that the general population of eve WOULD have a problem with this.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:00:00 - [34] I cant imagine a fair bumping behavior which wouldn't be an invitation for abuse. 1) The suggestion of damaging ships on bumping would generate people parking their carriers in front of stations where other smaller ships crash into on approach the gate/station. 2) Inability of small ships to bump bigger away would cause traffic stucks in heavily used routes and would be also a party for some kind of people. 3) only the complete absence of any collision system is not abusable in any way but is it what we want?? And for heavy outlaws in high sec areas I think its intended to be, otherwise CCP would surely do something about it -> proposed to be & part of the game. Deal with it. All secured places (even our real life cities/states) have security holes which are used by criminals to get into them. I personally dont want an absolutely secure places where only careless carebears live, this would be just boring.
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:04:00 - [35] Or, now that I think about it, in addition to damage, the ability to push ships should be based on ship mass. Fly a frigate into a exhumer? The exhumer isn't going to budge. Fly an exhumer into a frigate? Assuming you can actually get manage to do this, the frigate is almost certainly going to bounce around a bit.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Khalia Nestune Or, now that I think about it, in addition to damage, the ability to push ships should be based on ship mass. Fly a frigate into a exhumer? The exhumer isn't going to budge. Fly an exhumer into a frigate? Assuming you can actually get manage to do this, the frigate is almost certainly going to bounce around a bit. well what happens if some ****s park their freighters straight in front of the stations??
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:25:00 - [37] So... what? 1) You are approaching a station. You can dock anywhere around the station as long as you get close enough. 2) You are leaving a station. You've got the 'invulnerability' timeout as you leave (whatever the delay factor is, I forget now - 20 seconds?) and you fly right through those ships.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:41:00 - [38] ok I've never realized my ship flies through others while invul phase. I'm always trying to fly away and get bounced all over at jita stations.
silken mouth	Posted - 2009.03.30 11:48:00 - [39] it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so... however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions: Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank...
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:04:00 - [40] Not an expolit at all, and brilliant tactics. Whoever did this is a hero as far as I am concerned, and I hope it happens more often. Squadrons of Hulks pillaging and raping their way through the asteroid belts of high-sec leave little behind for anyone else; many of these are macro-miners to boot. Making their lives a little more miserable and dangerous is a good thing. ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.

Hariya	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Exploit, and bumping should have been fixed along time ago. I agree whole heartedly. Bumping should make damage to both ships. Armageddon + MWD == destroyed Hulk with one strike.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Nicola Sardonicus Not an expolit at all, and brilliant tactics. Whoever did this is a hero as far as I am concerned, and I hope it happens more often. Squadrons of Hulks pillaging and raping their way through the asteroid belts of high-sec leave little behind for anyone else; many of these are macro-miners to boot. Making their lives a little more miserable and dangerous is a good thing. Go back to C&P where you belong to crow over killing barges. I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences. This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Katarlia Simov This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics. dont you think CCP would just disable guns in high sec if it should be completely safe? Criminals are definetely a part of the game mechanics. The cost of implementing like this one if( getCurrentSystem().getSecurityState() > 0.5 ) { foreach( getShip().getWeapons() as weapon ) weapon.disable(); } or something like that would go towards zero for securing highsec, however its not wanted -> not an exploit.
Aidan Drake	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:26:00 - [44] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Katarlia Simov This particular tactic is, to my mind, definitely an exploit. Clear cut. You are doing something to get around game mechanics. Specifically the sec status mechanics. dont you think CCP would just disable guns in high sec if it should be completely safe? Criminals are definetely a part of the game mechanics. The cost of implementing like this one if( getCurrentSystem().getSecurityState() > 0.5 ) { foreach( getShip().getWeapons() as weapon ) weapon.disable(); } or something like that would go towards zero for securing highsec, however its not wanted -> not an exploit. - You can wardec in hi sec - The post you quoted suggests nerfing suicide ganking further, however, they are referencing "this particular tactic" being an exploit, which in this case involves bumping as a disabling tactic. A hostile action which has no sec impact. - Pseudo code does not make you clever
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:31:00 - [45] the fact something has no consequences does not mean its illegal/exploit automatically.
BrysonBennington	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:33:00 - [46] Most likely they found an entrance in your .5 system via a wormhole. They could have found worm in 0.0 space that connected them to your .5 system. Concord would never have know that they were even there until your ship had been attacked. This portion is a very brilliant tactic although I am in complete agreement with them taking your ship out like that. I haven't as yet come across this type of 0.0 pilot but have dealt with high sector pirates that use local neutrals to gain CONCORD aggro on you when all of a sudden you pop a smart bomb on them and they can't beat ya.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:38:00 - [47] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 31/03/2009 19:39:21 you (as -10 criminal) come into high sec using a pod, somewhere aside all concord presence is a friend waiting for you in a ship, you warp to him, he ejects, you get in the ship -> voila
Liitar Project Mayhem Band of Bastards.	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Katarlia Simov I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences. I work harder to suicide gank than you do to AFK mine
Lusulpher Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:19:00 - [49] Edited by: Lusulpher on 01/04/2009 05:21:45 1 Smaller ship bumping larger ship at higher than usual speed should cause damage to the smaller hull. No aggro. 2 Bump reactions(frigs spinning BSs PLEASE) need to be adjusted for all ships. 3 Ram needs to be a viable combat option.<link to lost thread> 4 Fleets need to be flagged for assisting as a gang network. Send message that fleet will go global, send message to accomplices(unwilling or otherwise) that they will be dropped when(within 10seconds) accomplice engages(do they WANT to stay in fleet?). Aggro is transferable when ganging with a flagged criminal(warning provided). 5 Anyone in a Wartarget fleet has an orange version of the wartarget tag on the overview. The current system could not be MORE confusing. 6 Aggression shows in LOCAL WINDOW to the person who has their stuff stolen/blown away.(Red timer in portrait please...) 7 When are we getting licenses to bountyhunt?. Hunt low-rated people in Lowsec NEXT to guns and Bountyheads in Hisec WITH podding! Bountyheads have Killaccess on these higher licensed bountyhunters...BRING IT CCP. Some of us want to do some crowd control... 8 Scale loot drops for PVP to reduce loot as more ships become involved. Also, you got exploited buddy. I'd tell you to always keep local open, but Cloak >>> EVERY TACTIC since speednerf. 7
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.01 07:10:00 - [50] Originally by: Liitar Originally by: Katarlia Simov I've always felt that suicide ganking needed to have the crap kicked out of it. Its FAR too easy and has no consequences. I work harder to suicide gank than you do to AFK mine I don't mine :) And I have never mined. But thanks for playing. Amazingly enough there are more people in the world than just miners and gankers. I happen to think that being able to live in high sec when you have a below -5 sec status breaks the game mechanics. If you want to be a criminal and still live in high sec you should have to do something to mitigate the sec hits you take to carry on doing it. To me, -5 means no ships in high sec for you, because you've clearly shown you can't be trusted to obey the laws. Sorry i have a different opinion to you If you wanna suicide gank, thats your own time to waste spoiling other peoples fun. If you must, then enjoy. Its never likely to happen to me so knock yourself out. But don't make out like its hard or that your targets can protect themselves.

Allamarr	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:45:00 - [51] I appreciate every ones reply's so far... It seems to be giving a very balanced view to this situation. Though there are a couple things I would like to reiterate. This discussion is not intended to propose how CCP fix these problems. If you wish to include that feel free but please also address the main point. Which is weather or not the tactic used was an exploitative one. Also as a reminder CCP had NOT DECIDED weather or not this TACTIC is an exploit which is why they recommended I start this tread. Philosophies like.. "If its possible its fair" Don't work as many hundreds and possibly thousands of players have been banned over the years for using what was determined to be an exploit or and exploitative tactic. The fact is that everyone has a right to attack anyone anywhere in the universe of eve... However in any empire space there are consequences. In high sec space the consequence is intended to be that the aggressors have their ships destroyed and their security status lowered. The end result being that they are effectively banned from bringing a ship into high security space. If this is the expected consequence and the player is satisfied with it then let him shoot who he wants. But after his security status is sufficiently lowered to the point to where he can't fly a ship into high security space on his own ... Is he circumventing game mechanics or the intended penalty of his previous actions by having an alt or another player bring a ship to him at a safe spot or by any other means finding a way into high security space with an intact ship. Also... Is the player who was most vital to the TACTIC who provided the warp in and bumped the ship attempting to flee out of alignment with the station circumventing the intended penalty by avoiding having his ship destroyed. Thx again for all the replies... keep them coming !! :) Allamarr P.S. I don't know if any of you have ever used a macro or not but I have. I am a computer tech by profession and while I can imagine how to use a macro for some very simple operations in eve it is in my opinion that it is impossible to make a successful Macro Mining Hulk that just goes out and clears belts for you all day. So while I'm sure that there are people out there smarter than me that might be able to figure out a rudimentary system of some sort the fact remains that the IDEA that everyone or even the majority of Hulk and Mackinaw miners in high sec are all running Macros is preposterous. It just a myth a legend to make less experience players hate the more experienced ones who have the skill to fly ship that they can't or to make pirates feel better about killing relatively defenseless targets. And if anyone actually believes that they are only targeting macro miners and can't be otherwise convinced then just warp in on top of them and lock them up... wait about 30 seconds before you fire and I guarantee that 99% of your targets will be long gone. Myself included which means that they aren't macro miners and weren't even afk. So don't kid yourself and if you have the nerve for a real fight fly up to these hulk and ask for one. Most of them will go trade ships and show you who your daddy is.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.02 02:05:00 - [52] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/04/2009 02:09:16 exploit. on a different note. as a player you can lock another player in under 0,5 sec if he is in a frig. why does it take concords "super" ships/guns longer to do this? if you are under -5 you simply should just get instant locked, ecm,and scrambled by concord and then kos edit: why is there no concord guns in the belts and at the moons/planets? ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.04.02 02:07:00 - [53] Originally by: silken mouth it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so... however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions: Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank... as i remember ccp stated that bumping is not allowed as a valid tactic and is now a exploit. pretty sure of it, but could be wrong ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Meatball Enema	Posted - 2009.04.02 03:43:00 - [54] howabout just letting anyone shoot someone who is flagged as a global criminal - gate guns will shoot them on site, why not us?
Martineski	Posted - 2009.04.02 05:11:00 - [55] ok after reading all of this i have come to a few conclusions, as i too recently lost hulk to highsec gankers near a stargate. Gate Guns need to become 2 volley ship kills to prevent mass damage while concord arrives. changes need to be made so that allowing flashy reds to dock in an orca flags the orca, cause if you look at it, the orca is aiding outlaws. the same issue was taken care of by allowing fleet mates to kill off logistics ships that were repping outlaws or opposing war targets. the bumping mechanic does need some work as having a frigate throw a BS off course just seems wrong. throwing a tennis ball at a wall is gonna send the ball back at you, not knock the wall over.
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:50:00 - [56] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: silken mouth it is not an exploit, as long as ccp doesnt say so... however i also consider it problematic. Possible solutions: Display sec status in local chat, just like standing. Fix bumping. Give exhumers more midslot for a better tank... as i remember ccp stated that bumping is not allowed as a valid tactic and is now a exploit. pretty sure of it, but could be wrong Let's see a citation, threadlink or something then. I've never seen anything or anybody saying that bumping is an exploit. ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
CareBeer	Posted - 2009.04.02 08:36:00 - [57] Suicide ganking should have consequences Yes i know its a pain to grind the sec status back up but thats not my problem CCP should implement a check whenever a pilot enters a ship in highsec and notify concord if the pilots sec status is below the allowed sec status, however i also believe pilots should be given time to escape to other system in cases like this
Randgris The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.02 09:36:00 - [58] Edited by: Randgris on 02/04/2009 09:43:05 Edited by: Randgris on 02/04/2009 09:39:50 funny to read all the carebear replies which have no clue about the game mechanics 1) a criminal can enter any highsec system with any (non capital) ship 2) the faction police (not concord) will attack these outlaws on sight except if it is a pod. any fast aligning ship will have a decent chance to evade them. faction police is much less powerful than concord 3) gate or station sentry guns don't shoot at someone without aggression, even if it's an outlaw. sentry guns don't shoot at pods 4) concord will only respond to a criminal aggression in highsec, regardless of players security status. avoiding getting killed by concord is an exploit 5) jumping into highsec with a global criminal flag will result in the destruction of your ship (pods excluded) by concord so within these rules it is perfectly possible that the attackers just jumped into the 0.5 system from lowsec in their fast aligning cruisers. they had no aggression timer so only the faction police spawned and they avoided this by warping as soon as possible. they then ganked your ship and in return, their ships got destroyed by concord. hope this clears up the current game mechanics and why this attack was within boundaries of said mechanics ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.04.02 09:47:00 - [59] Huh, seeing how wild guesses and misinterpretations are running amok here, I guess I should clarify some details. So first of all, I'm the Anathema and the Omen in the story. What happened is this. A friend logs in an alt to see if there are any hulks in Kador 0.5 high sec, quite a lot of 0.5s in a heap there. He finds several in one belt, so we head out, anathema, omen and 2 thoraxes. All but anathema are outlaws. This particular system is 5 jumps inside high sec. Important thing to note here, and apparently most of you dont know basic game mechanics of this sort, an outlaw jumping into high sec will NOT trigger sentry guns or concord to attack him, he will only trigger faction police. These spawn pretty much the moment you jump in. However they are rather slow on locking and a cruiser will warp off before getting warp scrambled. It is how game works. So, anathema goes ahead while cruisers wait in last low sec system. Anahtema finds the reported hulks and closes in to provide a warp in point. This was rather clumsily done in that particular case and I got uncloaked for a second IIRC. Cruisers head out to the system in question. They have 5 jumps to do through high sec. Every time we jump, amarr police spawns, but we warp off too fast for them to stop us. Also we are jumping blindly with no immediate scout, meaning just about any player in a t1 frigate with a warp disruptor can mess us up if he happens to be on gate we jumped through. But since our ships are cheap we don't really care too much. As we all land on the final gate and jump, the squad commander gangwarps all cruisers on the covert ops who is still sitting 3km away from the target. Now in this particular case target started moving as cruisers were in warp - so I bumped him. It turned out he was not warping away or at least stopped his warp when I tried to set view on him to see if this is the case, but since I was rather safe than sorry I did it only after bumping. What is an exploit here I'm not sure since bumping stuff with cov ops to prevent it from warping is something done every day in PvP community, especially against people aligned in safespots or missions. Also the fact a second hulk warped in at this moment doesnt really support the OP's claim he was trying to warp out, but this is IMO totally irrelevant. The 3 cruisers land, 1 of us misheared the primary and shot the wrong hulk (that is the one who survived in half armor) the other 2 kill the OP. Now finally we have global criminal flag and concord that all of you are so fast at invoking finally has the reason to get involved. Since we were already chased by faction police, the 2 spawns between themselves rip us to bits seconds after the hulk died. We warp our pods out, cov ops picks up your pithi c-type. Now finally with global criminal countdown, we head in pods back home. And that's how it's done. It's quite simple really. There are no exploits involved that I'm aware of. Jumping outlaw into high sec triggers faction police, they are as effective as they are at stopping that outlaw from warping off to next gate - it's how game works. Concord only comes when the outlaw actually commits a crime - and it happened. Concord killed our ships as intended, sadly for OP (but not for us) only after he died. The fact our ships are cheaper than his isn't really our fault nor is it an exploit. Anyway, that's pretty much the explanation of what happened in this particular case. We killed a total of 10 or so hulks so far in this way. Mostly in first 2 days of trying, later it became rather repetitive and dull.
Lubont	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Airborne Legoholic I agree completely with what you have said Allamar, Exploit 100%. This could be solved pretty simply too, all you have to do is make it so that when you steal from a can, shoot another person, etc. Anyone in your fleet goes flashy red with them. In Highsec that would mean, if you shoot me, and you have a neutral buddy sitting there in fleet, he goes flashy and gets Concorded as well. You'd also have to change the warning to "This will also cause fleet members to go global". The sad thing is there will probably be people who say: "That can't happen, because what if your in a ten man group, and one decides to go shoot someone and you all get killed for it?" I say: "Pick better friends to travel with, if they act like that without your consent, what kind of friend are they?" Anyway like I said, what you explained happens a lot, and has happened to me as well. This kind of Bull**** needs to be hampered more than it already has. I think you should go play "Simon says" and let eve evolve in a exiting game, and no just complaine and complaine and complaine about everything when you get killed Babys

Flech AFlech Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.04.02 12:01:00 - [61] just to add two things on vrabac post. 1st, i want to say this is not an easy kill. we lose around 45 minutes to kill a hulk. first scouting, then comming to location (it was more then 15 jumps in this case), killing it, and then going back home and wait for gcc to expire. you cant do this every day all the time, as Vrabac said, it is repetative and dull but i guess we will continue with this and kill a hulk every now and then just becaouse of hatemails, and whining. ty all hi sec whiners for this topic. your whining gave us a lot of motivation for our future actions. plz continue to whine as hard as possible. we are working on improving tactics and better efficency already.
Albion Drasani	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:32:00 - [62] First of all, wether the pirates ran a blockade of faction police or had their ships hauled into high sec in the back of an Orca or however they arrived in the belt, it was a brilliant tactic and not an exploit. With that being said however, there are two issues that CCP should address. #1- the ship that acted as a scout was obviously part of the attacking fleet because the pirates were able to warp to him..when concord attacks the pirates it should automatically flag him as well and destroy him. Even if he leaves the fleet his participation should have repercussions. ie there should be some type of countdown after leaving a fleet (and it doesn't have to be a very long one..say 1 or 2 minutes) where he is still considered part of any actions carried out by his former fleet especially if he is in the same system. That way he is not around to profit from the actions of the pirate squad. #2- every action has an equal and opposite reaction..therefore bumping a ship in space with another one will have an effect on it's trajectory, however just because the ship is in a weightless environment doesn't negate the fact that it still has mass. Therefore bumping the larger ship will throw it out of alignment but it will also cause dammage to both ships. The dammage caused to the ships will be affected by its mass and velocity. So a frigate bumping a hulk is going to cause dammage to the hulk but will probably cause significantly more dammage to the frig..possibly even enough to destroy it depending on it's velocity. And as for someone parking their freighter outside a station to block traffic..concord should react to it and attack after the first ship is destroyed leaving the station or place tractor beams on it to move it out of the traffic pattern.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:38:00 - [63] and salt into the wounds I bet they got 110% isk compensation for the ships they lost too! loool. Fair play to them I would love to know how to do this :)
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:01:00 - [64] "Waaa waaa someone who knows how to play better than me killed me waawaaawaaaaa"
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:07:00 - [65] dudes, stop whining. This just happens and is part of the game. High sec is not supposed to be completely safe, just safer than lower secs.
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2009.04.03 06:11:00 - [66] Good job, Vrabac and Flech. I am studying your tactics carefully for future use; they are quite imaginative and as far as I can see, totally legal. ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
Randgris The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:39:00 - [67] Originally by: Albion Drasani #1- the ship that acted as a scout was obviously part of the attacking fleet because the pirates were able to warp to him..when concord attacks the pirates it should automatically flag him as well and destroy him. yes please CCP implement this brilliant game mechanic. i'll be fleet inviting every rich mission runner and suicide myself in a t1 frig then scooping the $$$ loot with an alt ------------------------------------------ Yes I know how my face looks like :D
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:55:00 - [68] This thread is terrible. People who don't even know basic gameplay mechanics or the reasons for them telling CCP how things should be done.
Sarah Otis	Posted - 2009.04.03 23:24:00 - [69] HOW TO AVIOD HIGH SEC GANKING. Slightly complicated but well worth the time. Ive done this and it works great... If everyone would do this the high sec ganking would stop overnight!! Originally by: Reina Muerte So I'll help all of you fight back. I can tell you how to get concord there before you get attacked. Unfortunately this pretty much only works for those attacked in an asteroid belt and I haven't figured out a good protection for gate gankers. But that's at least half the problem right :) Oh and you need at least two people to do this. So there you are about to go out on a mining op with your corp. Maybe two of you in retrievers or 10 of you in hulks. All it takes is one person with a spare slot on their account. You create an alt. A throw away. Don't get attached he is going to die a lot. And leave him in a noob corp you dont want him in yours. You move this noob alt to the area where you do you mining at. When you get ready to go you log the alt on and fly him out to the belt where you are going to be working. Nothing special just take his noob ship. Now have one of your hulks fly out to the belt. As soon as the hulk lands use the noob alt to attack the hulk. It wont even scratch the shields and about 10 seconds later Concord will arrive and take out your noob. No biggie. Fly his pod back to the station and log off. Log your main character back on hope in a hulk or whatever and go join the mining op. Now you have concord on location protecting you. If gankers show up #1 hopefully they will be smart enough to know better than to try anything with Concord there. #2 If for some reason they don't notice concord sitting there because they are blind or stupid then they get popped as soon as their first weapon activates. So I hope this help keep carebears alive and kills a lot of gankers or at least makes them go broke because they have no skills besides stealing candy from a baby. And before you get any smart remarks about that you sorry pirates try flying up to my hulk and asking for a real fight. I'll go trade ships and give you one sir. LOL now who's the carebear Most Sincerely, Reina Muerte
Sarah Otis	Posted - 2009.04.03 23:24:00 - [70] HOW TO AVIOD HIGH SEC GANKING. Slightly complicated but well worth the time. Ive done this and it works great... If everyone would do this the high sec ganking would stop overnight!! Originally by: Reina Muerte So I'll help all of you fight back. I can tell you how to get concord there before you get attacked. Unfortunately this pretty much only works for those attacked in an asteroid belt and I haven't figured out a good protection for gate gankers. But that's at least half the problem right :) Oh and you need at least two people to do this. So there you are about to go out on a mining op with your corp. Maybe two of you in retrievers or 10 of you in hulks. All it takes is one person with a spare slot on their account. You create an alt. A throw away. Don't get attached he is going to die a lot. And leave him in a noob corp you dont want him in yours. You move this noob alt to the area where you do you mining at. When you get ready to go you log the alt on and fly him out to the belt where you are going to be working. Nothing special just take his noob ship. Now have one of your hulks fly out to the belt. As soon as the hulk lands use the noob alt to attack the hulk. It wont even scratch the shields and about 10 seconds later Concord will arrive and take out your noob. No biggie. Fly his pod back to the station and log off. Log your main character back on hope in a hulk or whatever and go join the mining op. Now you have concord on location protecting you. If gankers show up #1 hopefully they will be smart enough to know better than to try anything with Concord there. #2 If for some reason they don't notice concord sitting there because they are blind or stupid then they get popped as soon as their first weapon activates. So I hope this help keep carebears alive and kills a lot of gankers or at least makes them go broke because they have no skills besides stealing candy from a baby. And before you get any smart remarks about that you sorry pirates try flying up to my hulk and asking for a real fight. I'll go trade ships and give you one sir. LOL now who's the carebear Most Sincerely, Reina Muerte

Sarah Otis	Posted - 2009.04.03 23:25:00 - [71] HOW TO AVIOD HIGH SEC GANKING. Slightly complicated but well worth the time. Ive done this and it works great... If everyone would do this the high sec ganking would stop overnight!! Originally by: Reina Muerte So I'll help all of you fight back. I can tell you how to get concord there before you get attacked. Unfortunately this pretty much only works for those attacked in an asteroid belt and I haven't figured out a good protection for gate gankers. But that's at least half the problem right :) Oh and you need at least two people to do this. So there you are about to go out on a mining op with your corp. Maybe two of you in retrievers or 10 of you in hulks. All it takes is one person with a spare slot on their account. You create an alt. A throw away. Don't get attached he is going to die a lot. And leave him in a noob corp you dont want him in yours. You move this noob alt to the area where you do you mining at. When you get ready to go you log the alt on and fly him out to the belt where you are going to be working. Nothing special just take his noob ship. Now have one of your hulks fly out to the belt. As soon as the hulk lands use the noob alt to attack the hulk. It wont even scratch the shields and about 10 seconds later Concord will arrive and take out your noob. No biggie. Fly his pod back to the station and log off. Log your main character back on hope in a hulk or whatever and go join the mining op. Now you have concord on location protecting you. If gankers show up #1 hopefully they will be smart enough to know better than to try anything with Concord there. #2 If for some reason they don't notice concord sitting there because they are blind or stupid then they get popped as soon as their first weapon activates. So I hope this help keep carebears alive and kills a lot of gankers or at least makes them go broke because they have no skills besides stealing candy from a baby. And before you get any smart remarks about that you sorry pirates try flying up to my hulk and asking for a real fight. I'll go trade ships and give you one sir. LOL now who's the carebear Most Sincerely, Reina Muerte
Nephilius Caldari Grey Legionaires	Posted - 2009.04.04 14:32:00 - [72] Bumping is still stupid. What is the last thing to go through a bug's mind when he hits a windshield? His A$$. I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month.
Lola Zi'lok	Posted - 2009.04.04 17:23:00 - [73] Pod Pilots who have been victimized that way should be be allowed to follow through with in game legal action against CONCORD. Sue for damages and an indirect suit against the attacking parties. I am not a lawyer but there are real world laws that would apply in these cases I'm sure. And would be kinda fun, especially when u have to show up to court when in station walking comes out.
Kilostream Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.04 17:27:00 - [74] Edited by: Kilostream on 04/04/2009 17:36:48 I think not-an-exploit. It's becoming an old clichT now, but it's no less true for that - Concord is there to provide consequences, not protection. You chose to mine in Hi-Sec presumably because you believed Concord would arrive in time to save your ship (clearly it wasn't because of the value or abundance of the ores!) - now you know you were wrong about that. Protection for your mining ships is down to you, be it high sec, low sec or 0.0. In your case of high sec, for a relatively modest investment you could have had an alt or buddy with you in a scorp with a few jammers, or maybe a logistics with remote reps - something to either lessen their dps or mitigate it long enough for Concord to show up and do the business. (You could even be crafty and cloak the scorp/logi at range to invite the situation!) I'm not saying what happened to you is right or good, and I hope you take what I've said in the spirit that it's meant - a constructive comment on how you can give yourself a good chance to survive the situation in future - there are things you can do to help your own situation that do not rely upon bemoaning your lot on the forums about how unfair it all is. Besides, imagine the smile on your face when, with no change to game mechanics you could be sitting there, hulks intact, while the pirates do the 'warp of shame' in their pods!
Pesets	Posted - 2009.04.04 18:11:00 - [75] From what i heard, avoiding destruction by concord is a bannable exploit. And if concord would destroy your ship on undock or after jumping through the gate, then i believe it should do the same when you board a ship anywhere in the system. That of course only applies to the guys who were flying ships in hisec while having KOS sec status. Someone willing to train a throwaway suicide alt could still do it. Bumping to me looks like a very strange feature and i'm not sure why it isn't considered a bug - though i'm sure a lot of people would call me a lame carebear for that. One thing i can think of would be some kind of "bumping mode" you have to activate to actually alter someone else's heading when bumping them - but bumping in that mode should be considered equivalent to shooting or otherwise aggressing. And it is indeed strange that a frigate can bump a mining barge around while taking no damage whatsoever, but that's another issue.
Hesperius	Posted - 2009.04.04 18:12:00 - [76] Well... this is the flawed foundation of Eve. As someone who has done just this type of thing, I felt that it should not be allowed. I can not believe that CCP allows it. As someone who also leave a hulk in a high sec belt while I pvp, I worry that someone would do this to me, but there is no way watching local, mining or hauling is interesting enough to watch for someone who might do this to me (although I diverse it). On to your "This is the equivalent of letting an armed known psychopath walk into a police station" - well yes, but its like you are standing there filing a report on some vandalism that happened the psychopath runs in and before the cops can grab their guns, the psychopath kills you. Exploit... yes/no Your unarmed industrial ship should be insurable, T1 or T2. The guy with guns on his ship... well, start player run insurance companies and see if anyone would insure anything that can fit guns.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.04 18:21:00 - [77] Bumping is an aggressive act. There is little need to argue about it when it is being used so obviously. It is an exploit and exactly the reason why people use it. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Ivy Scorn Amarr Nethro Ore Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.04.04 19:14:00 - [78] Maybe (probably) this is a dumb question, but... why not mine in a Corvetor? The yield shouldn't be that much different (3% per exumer skill) unless you don't tank your hulk at all (pop pls). I'm playing around with EFT and whenever I fit a decent tank, there isn't enough cpu left to use mining upgrades. Any less tank and I might as well not tank it at all. I'd also want a DC in my hulk as it has more impact on its ehp than the shield fitting itself. So at this point, why bother with a Hulk for solo-highsec at all? If a Corvetor pops, who cares - it's isured. If a Hulk pops, that another 12 hours of mindnumbing rockdrilling. What do I miss?
Pesets	Posted - 2009.04.04 20:38:00 - [79] Well, you miss twelve to fifteen percent ore yield i suppose... but we're going off on a tangent.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.04 22:41:00 - [80] Edited by: Whitehound on 04/04/2009 22:44:30 Originally by: Ivy Scorn So at this point, why bother with a Hulk for solo-highsec at all? If a Corvetor pops, who cares - it's isured. If a Hulk pops, that another 12 hours of mindnumbing rockdrilling. What do I miss? You miss watching wild-life documentaries. Miners are like herds on an open plain. They only need to harvest what is right in front of them. If the only problem for you is another 12 hours of mining then it becomes as obvious as daylight. Because then the predators come, and like the wolves, do these go for the weakest. What the OP's comment reveals is that teamwork was used and as a successful strategy. While these wolves work out ways on how to hunt you down, and despite CONCORD giving you protection, is there less and less thinking involved for you. Just like you say - it is all just some mind-numbing rock drilling. You make it sound like it is another 12 hours of fun for you. As much as it must suck to get this told into your face, but this could well be the root of your problem. It is all too easy for you, so why should the wolves have any respect for you? You are their perfect prey. You take it from the asteroids, and they take it from you. National Geographic, the Wild-Life of EVE ... -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.

Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.05 11:36:00 - [81] Originally by: Whitehound Bumping is an aggressive act. There is little need to argue about it when it is being used so obviously. It is an exploit and exactly the reason why people use it. Being aggressive in pure pvp game is an exploit? Sheesh.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.05 11:59:00 - [82] Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2009 11:59:12 Originally by: Hariya Being aggressive in pure pvp game is an exploit? Sheesh. No, it is a PvP game, and bumping is aggressive. It further is an exploit when people use it to avoid getting CONCORDed. CONCORD is a game element as much as it is a safety mechanism to give new players a safety zone. Or as the saying goes: surviving CONCORD is an exploit. If you do not get that then you are probably too busy surviving in 0.0 to care. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.04.05 13:12:00 - [83] technically no... all perfectly legitimate game tactics. it's the game itself that's sadly broken. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:30:00 - [84] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 05/04/2009 11:59:12 Originally by: Hariya Being aggressive in pure pvp game is an exploit? Sheesh. No, it is a PvP game, and bumping is aggressive. It further is an exploit when people use it to avoid getting CONCORDed. CONCORD is a game element as much as it is a safety mechanism to give new players a safety zone. Or as the saying goes: surviving CONCORD is an exploit. If you do not get that then you are probably too busy surviving in 0.0 to care. Bumping does not do damage - CONCORD should not react to it, ever. The rest (whether the pie rats should have get spanked or not) is upto debate. Bumping is not.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:35:00 - [85] using the game and its general mechanics like bumping as they are is an exploit? Go quit playing eve, dude.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:44:00 - [86] I can stop a ship from warping with a warp scrambler or a warp disruptor. And I can slow a ship down with a web. If I can do the same with only bumping, and then it gets not counted as an aggression, then something is wrong - regardless if the wolves want to see it or not. -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while.
Metalcali Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.05 15:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Whitehound I can stop a ship from warping with a warp scrambler or a warp disruptor. And I can slow a ship down with a web. If I can do the same with only bumping, and then it gets not counted as an aggression, then something is wrong - regardless if the wolves want to see it or not. I haven't chosen a side on this topic, exploit no, but whether something should be done about it, not sure. As for your comment, unless ccp adds in that bumping something can cause slight damage to the ship, how would you go about proposing concord do something? Since this isn't a direct threat or showing direct intent to harm the other pilot, concord doesn't take action, after all how are they to know that this isn't two people just messing around? A few friends and I will bump into each other just to mess around while ratting or whatever, is this bad as well, should concord destroy us for making our ships rub up on each other like two horny teenagers behind the bleachers? --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
Deathblow Rampage	Posted - 2009.04.05 16:02:00 - [88] Seems simple enouph to me... if you are bumped by someone out of your fleet or corp and then you die within less time that it would take for you to align and warp ... concord assumes its hostile and kills them too. Cause if they bump you and you dont die as a result of it then who cares if you were bumped. Its only when the bumping is a direct cause of your death that it matters. As for the idea of using support ships to defend high sec miners.. that would never work. If you are mining in low sec or 0.0 and a hostile or even just a neutral ship shows up you can open fire and kill it before it kills your hulk. In high sec you MUST wait for them to shoot first or you get Concorded yourself. Which is exactly why these situations exist. They pirates know that concord has your hands tied behind your back and that you have to give them the first shot. Which makes it too late. So in effect these pirates are using concord to protect them until its too late. I fly in 0.0 and if I were in a hulk mining and the same thing happened to me as in this opening situation I would simply have popped the cov ops as soon as he decloked and started bumping me. Then id have time to finish aligning and warp before his friends got there. If i did this is high sec I would get Concorded for defending myself. love the game... Hate the exploiters... Doing my part to make CCP aware that they have a problem Deathblow
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.05 17:38:00 - [89] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/04/2009 17:46:28 Originally by: Airborne Legoholic This could be solved pretty simply too, all you have to do is make it so that when you steal from a can, shoot another person, etc. Anyone in your fleet goes flashy red with them. This again would be extremely exploitable. Just imagine the implications. It's not really hard to come up with a scenario how you could srew someone over with this game mechanic. The best possible solution lies within fixing things that don't make sense in themselves, instead of making up arbitrary and possibly shortsighted rules. Things that don't make sense the way they are implemented right now: 1. Bumping 2. Insurance. Result: Still possible, but harder and less lucrative. edit: One additional solution would be a warning window which tells a pilot that ganging up with criminals in high sec, or entering high sec afterwards, will get him flagged as a criminal, too. Plus the appropriate flagging mechanic. Low sec and 0.0 should be unaffected. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Askagidig skaja	Posted - 2009.04.05 18:25:00 - [90] using bumping as a non agression warp disruptor is an exploit!

Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.04.05 18:55:00 - [91] Originally by: Askagidig skaja using bumping as a non agression warp disruptor is an exploit! I second that. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
Backdaft	Posted - 2009.04.06 17:58:00 - [92] Edited by: Backdaft on 06/04/2009 18:01:13 Use an idea from some fantasy books (taken perhaps from medieval history?) and "peace-bond" the pods of those with criminal standing for that sec. Like how a sword and scabbard was wrapped in wire and a sealed with a lead stamp when entering a "civilized" city. At any time the city guard can ask to see the seal. Or maybe how your modern day electric meter is done the same to prevent tampering. LOL. So with this method a pod is electronically peace-bonded when he enters high sec that flags him as criminal. If he later enters a ship, the bond is broken and a message is transmitted in local to that effect. Optionally, you could allow ship scanners to find these guys easy so bounty hunters could kill them. If you're peace bond is broken all gate and station turrets should fire on your pod. If your pod is destroyed then the broken bond is cleared. Having to buy a new death clone works at the player's collateral insuring the peace-bond. If the player logs off or makes it through a gate then at login or upon entering the new system the message is again transmitted in local chat. Anyone in a fleet with someone who's peace-bond is broken is subject to the same penalties. A buzzard would need to be in a fleet to allow his pirate friends to warp to him so they could attack you. Even if he immediately left the fleet the criminal flags should stay on him for 15 mins. So as per the OP's scenario, this buzzard gets nailed by Concord before he gets much of a chance to bump you.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.04.07 13:12:00 - [93] Since this topic seems to be going on with funny interpretations of what happened even after I thoroughly explained every detail, I'll just inform everyone that 12th hulk we ganked was kind enough to drop a gistii a-type small booster - no bumping involved. Everyone focusing on bumping is kinda silly when it is the least important part of the whole procedure. Even in this one case, OP's buddy in 2nd hulk landed on him just as he was being oh so exploitishly bumped and cruisers were about to exit warp on top of them both. So say he warped off - his friend would die. Wonder if he'd be happier then. As for people still insisting concord should be killing someone for just being outlaw in high security space, I strongly suggest you learn about some basics of high sec and flagging before being so bold to construct such false statements in a seemingly expert and self-confident way.
Allamarr	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:40:00 - [94] Since none of you pirates who have been posting here seem to get it let me remind you of the Title of this thread. It is asking for OPINIONS. Maybe you didn't read that and just went straight to something you could complain about. OBVIOUSLY this is not currently considered an exploit. The question is weather or not it should be. From current tally it seems to be a land slide towards public opinion calling it an exploit. This again does not mean that it is an Exploit YET! So all of your carebear insults and all of your pointed reminders that technically the game mechanics do allow it and even pointing out that its possible to get some people inspite of the bumping issue doesn't change the fact that in a make believe futuristic universe most players do NOT seem to believe that the police would just sit by and let bystander be slaughtered by a known criminal or that its the least bit realistic for a 2 oz frigate to be able to bump and 20 ton barge off coarse WEATHER OR NOT its being used in an exploitative tactic or not.
Jackal's Bane	Posted - 2009.04.11 03:49:00 - [95] I can't wait until bumping is considered an aggressive act that flags concord, I'm going to sit 50km off the 4-4 undock and watch the firework show.
Thoram Minmatar Twin Sun Mining Corp	Posted - 2009.04.11 09:14:00 - [96] Ive had other playters bump me from time to time, but it's been a while since I had it happen to me. I dont understand how a small ship can bump a big ship that is 10+ times as big and heavy as they are and get them to move aimlessly several km away. while the small ship doesn't even get a dent. I can see two solutions to this issue. 1. Anyone with less security status then the system they enter are in, should be constant red flashing as soon as they are in a ship, constantly to anyone in there. Since concord only provide consiquences, players in a certain sec system can help to deal with those who have to low standing. For example. In a 0.5 system, you are able to move around freely if your standing isn't below -5.0, but if anyone with less standing enters by use of a pod to avoid concord at the gate and get into a ship they should flash red, so anyone in that system that dont have to worry about concord fireing on them at gates or station can fire at them. 2. is to remove the ability to bump into ships. similar to how it is done when you undock from a station the frist 10 seconds or so. I dont understand why we are able to bump into eachother. Maybe it is so you dont stack ships in space and mess up the data on what each ship is doing, but surely it can be dealt with in another method. Maybe by having the stationary object remain stationary and have the object that moves, just bounce of it. Similar to how a ship that warp to zero to a gate is being bumped away from it, while the gate remains stationary. Same is happening if you warp to a belt and end up in a roid. the roid dont move an inch, but you get bounced around like a rubberball. ----------------------------------------------- Recruiting manager. Contact me if you wish to join TSS or learn more about us. -----------------------------------------------
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.04.11 10:11:00 - [97] Edited by: Vrabac on 11/04/2009 10:15:11 Originally by: Allamarr So all of your carebear insults and all of your pointed reminders that technically the game mechanics do allow it and even pointing out that its possible to get some people inspite of the bumping issue doesn't change the fact that in a make believe futuristic universe most players do NOT seem to believe that the police would just sit by and let bystander be slaughtered by a known criminal And would asteroids that you mine in this futuristic universe grow out of nothing over the night? Hey maybe lets start a topic about it being an exploit, since it's not realistic. This is not a futuristic universe, it's a video game that has its rules. Those rules are such as they are, they enable you to mine asteroids that pop out of nowhere in direct counter of the matter/energy law, and they enable us to come and pop you, and even omgbump you. All the "This is like a guy stabbing me with a knife on the street and than..." sort of comparisons to RL mugging, murdering and thefts and talks about what the police would do in such cases are utterly ridiculous. Originally by: Thoram For example. In a 0.5 system, you are able to move around freely if your standing isn't below -5.0 I didn't even bother reading after this, since this is the core of the problem in this topic. None of the so called "public opinion" thats "calling it an exploit" here seems to have any knowledge about most basic rules of EVE. it's not -5, it's -4.5. You cant enter 0.5 system freely if you're below -4.5, not -5. I suggest to get your facts straight before you try to voice your "public opinion" because you'll just look dumb doing it and most people who know anything about the subject won't bother with it much. You have your explanation, there were no magic tricks or workarounds involved. It was as straightforward as it can get. I'm sure CCP is intelligent enough not to form their opinion on exploits on random civire's "YEP BRO THIS BE SPLOIT DEFO" exclamation a public forum. If they decide it is, it will be based on something serious. However since suiciding stuff in high sec has been around for quite a while, I highly doubt this will happen.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.11 10:34:00 - [98] Edited by: Hariya on 11/04/2009 10:34:58 Originally by: Thoram Ive had other playters bump me from time to time, but it's been a while since I had it happen to me. I dont understand how a small ship can bump a big ship that is 10+ times as big and heavy as they are and get them to move aimlessly several km away. while the small ship doesn't even get a dent. 0,5mv^2 The small ship doesn't have to be large to be able to bump hard. It has to travel fast. Physics 101. Plus, why should the small ship get a dent? Probably as its force is spread on a tiny area, it would go clean through your bigger ship, causing substantial damage in the way.
Ivy Scorn Amarr Nethro Ore Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.04.11 10:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Vrabac it's not -5, it's -4.5. You cant enter 0.5 system freely if you're below -4.5, not -5. How uncharacteristically nitpicky for a pirate. I'd assume he just means -5 = KOS in 'all empire'. Hey, how about hunting down some spelling mistakes while we're at it? Originally by: Vrabac As for people still insisting concord should be killing someone for just being outlaw in high security space, I strongly suggest you learn about some basics of high sec and flagging before being so bold to construct such false statements Well, there's nothing wrong with stating that concord should hunt down outlaws in highsec space. If that's what was said, then it's an opinion, like 'I have the opinion that concord should hunt down rats'. Doesn't really matter the CCP obviously either thinks otherwise or couldn't come up with a good solution that avoids stucking your character - i.e. they can't just podkill you at the gate since you might have all your clones in highsec.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.04.11 11:42:00 - [100] Originally by: Ivy Scorn Originally by: Vrabac it's not -5, it's -4.5. You cant enter 0.5 system freely if you're below -4.5, not -5. How uncharacteristically nitpicky for a pirate. I'd assume he just means -5 = KOS in 'all empire'. Hey, how about hunting down some spelling mistakes while we're at it? No it is not being nitpicky nor can it by compared to spelling errors. It's a false statement. Saying that someone who's -4.9 can enter a 0.5 system is quite a big mistake and demonstrates lack of basic knowledge, and therefore destroys that person's credibility for any further points on the same topic he might try to make. More than several people here were worried because concord didn's shoot the outlaws. They thought concord does shoot outlaws on sight and considered the mere presence of outlaws in high sec an exploit, making up various fantastic workarounds such as non flashy friends leaving them ships in safespots etc. They don't understand how things work at all, yet they seem to be very fast to cry "sploits". And that's pretty much the "common opinion" that supports the OP here.



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