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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 34 post(s) |
RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.01 22:44:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Greg DaimYo
I am thinking of roams with 2 Falcons, 2 Arazus and 2 Dictors fitted with a cloak plus 20 Stealth Bombers and you are going to have fun times in enemy territory.
Until you hit your first large hostile gang and you lose most of your SB's.
That said that does sound fun as a one-off, but i just dont see it working in reality- not many people have the coordination and FC's to pull something like that off and every ship you lose is a significant kick in the pants isk wise. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh. |
Greg DaimYo
Caldari Unglueckliche Wiesel
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Posted - 2009.04.01 22:53:00 -
[452]
Originally by: RedSplat
Until you hit your first large hostile gang and you lose most of your SB's.
That said that does sound fun as a one-off, but i just dont see it working in reality- not many people have the coordination and FC's to pull something like that off and every ship you lose is a significant kick in the pants isk wise.
You're right of course. My initial number of 20 was maybe a bit over the top there.
But to be more accurate: You can do a roam with 1 arazu, 1 falcon, 1 dictor with a cloak and 5 stealth bombers and have a field day in enemy territory, because it will be extremely hard to catch you.
And even if every lost SB is a severe loss to your DPS, it remains one of the safest ways to bring damage to your enemies home system(s).
I am very much looking forward to it, generally speaking.
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Hard Water
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Posted - 2009.04.01 22:54:00 -
[453]
STOP ruining this f ucking game, less covert ops, less god damn cloaking. Your ideas are so f ucking horrible it is ridiculous. Stop ruining the god damn game.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:02:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Greg DaimYo
But to be more accurate: You can do a roam with 1 arazu, 1 falcon, 1 dictor with a cloak and 5 stealth bombers and have a field day in enemy territory, because it will be extremely hard to catch you.
And even if every lost SB is a severe loss to your DPS, it remains one of the safest ways to bring damage to your enemies home system(s).
I am very much looking forward to it, generally speaking.
In the specfic case of getting into Cynojammed systems via Blackops and causing havoc i love that.
However, you are still vulnerable to camps and the moment said fleet is identified by defenders you will swiftly find yourself camped in; and needing BO to jump you out. Followed by anything vulnerable staying docked, or being escorted.
Sadly the state of 'Local' isnt suitable for ANY true 'Stealth' or Guerilla operation in lowsec, 0.0 or Empire.
As far as creating stress and diverting resources however...
Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh. |
Interghast
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:20:00 -
[455]
I've run some tests on sisi today with the new changes.
3 arby torps - can't use T2, only got torp 3 at the moment (still training) but with 3 BCU2 which is a very tight fit with a +3% cpu implant and thus I suspect 2 will be the norm.
I also have covops V because I liked the current cruise bomber enough to put the time in to get the cloaked speed up so getting some damage bonus off that.
Firing standard explosive torps (from a hound) at a cruiser shield with standard 50% resist, no extenders so standard sig radius.
848 unpainted 1140 one pwnage 1482 two pwnage
So it will take about 3 volleys to pop a cruiser. Currently on TQ it takes about 3 volleys of cruise to pop a cruise, but without the need for 2 paints and 3 bcu2.
Nurfed but can be mitigated with specialised fit.
Swapped to shooting at a BS - new focussed role 1589 damage against unfitted rokh (BS V pilot, 65% explosive resist no hardners etc)
Decided to try against a standard plated buffer tank BS
Apoc, 3 1600mm plates, 3 trimarks, 2 eanm2, dcu 1648 damage against shield 1541 against armour
Then I tried out how many volleys it would take a single bomber to drop a BS
The unfitted rokh (BS V char) took 11 volleys to kill The buffer tanked apoc took 35 volleys
With the 3 bcu I had a refire rate of 8.72s and had to reload once. I was sat stationary as was the BS for just over 5 mins before it popped.
Now don't take this the wrong way, I don't think a solo bomber should be dropping a plated BS quickly solo, the numbers however are interesting if the anti-bs role is the one CCP Chronotis is forcing on us.
It would take 35 bombers with 3 bcu2 to alpha strike a single plated BS with torps. Of course add faction torps and better torp skills into the mix and the number needed is reduced.
Some interesting tactics could be developed for this, where by interesting I mean unclocking on an unsuspecting BS. Anything with support is going to cause significant losses to that bomber fleet for that single BS kill.
The bomber has about 1.2k effective hp so could probably be insta popped by an arty thrasher at around 25-30km
And for this power we lose the current roles the cruise bomber can be used for.
Anti falcon (one of the most fun roles I've found so far :P) Popping drones Extra volley damage to help smaller gangs break tanked bs Drawing ceptors off gates / stations General harresment in "safe" enemy systems.
In many cases I don't get kills, I just cause people to warp out. This doesn't suit the people wanting to get on killmails but it does provide assistance to my gang mates.
I'm not sure where people get the 300+dps figure from for cruise bombers. With 3 bcu2 on a cruise bomber in eft it shows 264dps with all level V char, I get about 200 out of mine, which is less than a cheaper assault frig can do. I don't fit all BCU as I use ECCM for anti falcon work.
I'm not adverse to putting torps on bombers as an option but the cruise bomber still has a niche especially if the falcon is going to retain it's 200+km effective range.
Allow choice, don't make ships cookie cutter...
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L0nz0p
Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:25:00 -
[456]
covert ops on it? gife plz! :D
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Blue Ergot
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:26:00 -
[457]
I have to agree with not changing the bonuses to stealth bombers. Without changing other aspects of the game the idea is false hope for bombers. It has been stated more then enough that these paper thin glass ships wont stand a chance against anything. Enemy fleets don't even need to readjust targets, simply targeting an extra target and sending drones out will pop a bomber within seconds. The racial dmg bonus is also something I think is a problem. Taking this off and adding a different bonus, but keeping the same racial differences there i.e. caldari & minnie get target painting bonuses, Amarr & Gallente get web range bonuses. Bonuses like that would make a wolf pack deadlier and may solve problems related to the problem people have with torps. If not fix torps as well as bombers otherwise your making beating useless into the ground =/
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Toyo Italari
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:40:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Interghast
I'm not sure where people get the 300+dps figure from for cruise bombers. With 3 bcu2 on a cruise bomber in eft it shows 264dps with all level V char
In EFT, for all the good that is, I can actually hit a 3307 volley and 387 DPS, if I sacrifice two med slots (with a cpu reduction implant).
It's not exactly a build I'd recommend anyone use, ever, as it's obscenely expensive. 3x Caldari Navy BCU, 3x T2 launcher w/ Devestator Fury (Hound), Bay Loading Accelerator II.
With faction launchers instead of T2, you still get 323 DPS (298 without rig) and much better damage against small targets thanks to higher explosion velocity.
So yeah, it's doable, but it's certainly not cheap. If someone was gonna spend that much, I'd assume they'd spend it on a well fit Torp Raven with much scarier DPS.
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:44:00 -
[459]
May I suggest a "combat bomber" role (in case it wasn't already)? Torpedo bomber which can't cloak but have a tank comparable to assault frigates. Stealth bombers will die easily to a bunch of drones while combat bombers will require proper anti-support ships to be dealt with.
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Interghast
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:51:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Toyo Italari
Originally by: Interghast
I'm not sure where people get the 300+dps figure from for cruise bombers. With 3 bcu2 on a cruise bomber in eft it shows 264dps with all level V char
With faction launchers instead of T2, you still get 323 DPS (298 without rig) and much better damage against small targets thanks to higher explosion velocity.
So yeah, it's doable, but it's certainly not cheap. If someone was gonna spend that much, I'd assume they'd spend it on a well fit Torp Raven with much scarier DPS.
Aha, I was avoiding faction mods and rigs in my calculations.
Of course there is another hidden issue if this change hits live and cruise becomes unusable on bombers, all of us with bombers out in 0.0 are going to have to find torp launchers and cov-ops cloaks to use this new single role...
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Eigof Tahr
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:52:00 -
[461]
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: Greg DaimYo
I am thinking of roams with 2 Falcons, 2 Arazus and 2 Dictors fitted with a cloak plus 20 Stealth Bombers and you are going to have fun times in enemy territory.
Until you hit your first large hostile gang and you lose most of your SB's.
That said that does sound fun as a one-off, but i just dont see it working in reality- not many people have the coordination and FC's to pull something like that off and every ship you lose is a significant kick in the pants isk wise.
1. This is possible and effective. I have seen it and know it first hand. 2. Not many people have the coordination to field large remote rep cap ship fleets or POS fueling logistics, but somehow it happens. So that logic is flawed. 3. Self control when it comes to an FC is important. When you encounter the obvious situation that you can't handle, you stay cloaked. Stealth bombers are not conventional fleets, you don't slam your fleet against any and every opponent because they happen to be there.
So few individuals understand good and proper covert ops pvp, and even fewer organizations, that it kills me when the penut gallery comes out to post about it. I have been checking out killboards, and for talking a lot about stealth bombers, many of you have no kills or losses to prove you know how they work in a real engagement with an fc that knows how to use them. Numbers speak. ------- A rose, by any other name, would be "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation." |
Seraphim Io
Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.02 00:05:00 -
[462]
Edited by: Seraphim Io on 02/04/2009 00:07:17 Chronnie, if you want a warp while cloaked torp bomber you have a perfectly unused tier 2 bc hull begging to be used. Go mess with that won't you.
Seriously I came to this game upon hearing of the stealth bomber class. I streamlined my skill training. A week after I was able to get into the ship CCP did the initial nerf on all missiles, I was so ****ed. So to reiterate what I have been asking for, nay PLEADING for these past few years Give The Bomber A Cov Ops Cloak, don't change another damn thing, do not put stipulations on the recloak timer. PUT THE STEALTH IN THE STEALTH BOMBER, or else rename it just plain old "Bomber" and let it wallow in its current predicament. Please don't jack up this ship class simply because you 'think' you know whats best there Chronnie.
edit: spelling
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Revdkor Whorlstev
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.02 00:44:00 -
[463]
I'm seriously against this idea.
I thought bombs were supposed to be our weapon of choice for close range. It would be more practical to change the way bombs are used as adding torpedo bonuses does nothing to fix the underlying problem. At close range bombers are just too fraigle to survive and adding a 30 sec recloak delay would only make the problem worse. Personally I would prefer to see bombs changed to something comparable to torpodeos in both power and cost but given increase functionailty such as aoe damage, capacitor drain, lockbreaker, or fof effects. As they exist right now bombs are just too expensive and imprecise to be of much use. Besides, I'm already specialized in cruise missiles, don't take away the reason for my hard work and training. It might also be feasible to give bombers some sort of defensive bonus if your going to take away their ability to recloak right away. Increased resistances, a lower signature radius, even a velocity bonus would be welcome if your going to force us into close combat.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.02 00:47:00 -
[464]
Edited by: RedSplat on 02/04/2009 00:47:33
Originally by: Eigof Tahr 1. This is possible and effective. I have seen it and know it first hand.
Nice
I would love to see this; that is to say a massed gang of Stealth bombers in action, taking on a hard target and skill winning out. Do you think you can help with that; fraps personal experiences?
Originally by: Eigof Tahr 2. Not many people have the coordination to field large remote rep cap ship fleets or POS fueling logistics, but somehow it happens. So that logic is flawed.
Yes, it would if i was speaking in absolutes. But i'm not and we both know the issue with any kind of finesse tactic/playstyle is experience and practice and the results of such (RR BS gangs, Logistics support- Whatever) vary depending on such.
I was saying that not many people manage to pull such things off well, that most people arent nearly as succesfull as they could be if you prefer that phrasing. I'm not sure whether you were re-iterating that point, somethign similar or are making another one entirely?
Originally by: Eigof Tahr 3. Self control when it comes to an FC is important. When you encounter the obvious situation that you can't handle, you stay cloaked. Stealth bombers are not conventional fleets, you don't slam your fleet against any and every opponent because they happen to be there.
Poor FC's are poor FC's and idiots will be idiots. I believe i made the point in another thread that SB's were/are rather trickier to use right than many ship people could choose to fly. But thanks for the lecture
Originally by: Eigof Tahr So few individuals understand good and proper covert ops pvp, and even fewer organizations, that it kills me when the peanut gallery comes out to post about it. I have been checking out killboards, and for talking a lot about stealth bombers, many of you have no kills or losses to prove you know how they work in a real engagement with an fc that knows how to use them. Numbers speak.
Belittling others opinions because you fly stealth bombers (and i assume from your tone beleive you fly them well and have definite opinions about such) and failing to take into account that people have multiple accounts (Falcon alt lawlz!!1!!), fly with competent people whom do fly them, fly Covops or Recons themselves and have worthwile ideas/suggestios and accurate opinions...well- people are wondering whether YOU are a Dry roast or Salted i would imagine, though mighty is you prowess and surely greatest of the Nobby's Nut's you are
Now personally
...Well you can evemail me if you are interested where and how i form my opinions. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh. |
Igloo
Instant Annihilation The InterStellar Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:21:00 -
[465]
I spent some time playing with these changes on test and I really like the addition of the covert ops cloak. As a long-time scout I really like the idea of a disposable cloaking frigate with some firepower. Although they lose the scanning ability when compared to the covert ops, in many cases I think 250ish dps from cloak could be a nice change.
As someone who used the bombers for a while years ago, then gave up on them since pretty much every other ship was more useful, I think the covert ops cloak really helps this ship. Although a damage increase to bring cruise missiles up to torp damage levels would be preferable, they seem to be ok. These are no longer solo nuisance ships, but nice heavy scouts. Perfect for using in conjuction with recons to lock down and enemy systems or for empire wars (and with fewer skillpoints needed than for recons). Get a tackle, kill, and get out before help arrives.
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Dr Resheph
Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:35:00 -
[466]
EVE players are seriously stupid sometimes.
When they came out everybody complained how useless they were, and yet-another-frigate-killer class of ship was redundant. Now you have people saying how awesome and useful they were, and how they should be left alone.
The role change should've happened ages ago. Not only do reversals of proposed changes never EVER happen once they're on SISI, this is one case where they shouldn't.
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Becka Call
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:06:00 -
[467]
Can someone setup a pos with a cyno jammer and test how long it takes 3 stealth bombers to drop it with recloaking to prevent pos locking?
Between the covert cyno into a cyno jammed system and this torp change happening at same time, seems clear this is the way to take down a cyno jammer. I don't know why dev didn't say this.
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Dr Resheph
Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:26:00 -
[468]
From SISI testing:
- 10% racial damage was good, 20% is absurd and overpowered - covert cyno needs its fittings halved - bomb bay STILL consumes a launcher hardpoint - bombers STILL have their turret hardpoints - velocity and exp velocity bonuses make T2 torps overpowered - covert ops is overpowered, and still useless in combat, bring back improved + speed bonus
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Lin Zexu
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Posted - 2009.04.02 03:15:00 -
[469]
I'm disappointed these changes are going to probably take place. The Stealth Bomber is was attracted me to the game. The players only asked to return their broken ship for a new workin one. however, ccp insist on giving us an entire different ship because they think its better. I just don't understand it. I waited and worked to get the old SB not this one. Thus, i feel slightly cheated out of time, isk, and dollars.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 03:56:00 -
[470]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/04/2009 04:04:19 Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/04/2009 03:58:51 hmm tryid to fiddle around with the bombers, you can get a alpha with max skills and implants on 6300, and a dps of around 900, and skill have that cov up cloak on.
now maybe it is just me, but most buffer tanks don't have more then 120k EHP, that means 20 bombers will instant kill almost any bs and bc. while even if they don't instant kill the bs it takes around 15 sec for a bs to lock the bombers, giving them 2 more volleys before the bs can fire upon them, giving them a effektive dmg of around 18.900 a piece before the bs can respond, letting 7 bombers kill almost any bs and bc, before it can even fire a shot (bc's will properly have a better chance, not sure for all of them). (not to tell what would happen if there is just 1 dampener on some of those bombers with locking scripts)
i am not sure about you guys, but personally i think it is a bit over the top for a frigate to be able to do such a insane amount of dmg. and it will resort in 10-15 man bomber gangs moving around instant killing anything they attack, being undetectable (cov up cloak) and can choice whatever enemy they which to encounter, being able to kill 2 bs's, 3bc's or 4-5 cruisers before they even get to fire 1 shot back.. maybe that is a bit over the top..
but then again, 10-15 ships of anything will most likely rip a new one for any ship they encounter :P so well..
on one side i LOVE it, on the other i think it is a bit too much. maybe taking the dps down a little and giving it a little extra alpha?. and i would like to see it's main targets being cruiser/bc's which it can take down, not bs's which should be more then a match for a frigate.. (not like bs's is used that much as it is :/ )
retestet a bit and i actually really like them.. although i still think there is a need for a few changes to the alpha vs. the dps ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
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Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:02:00 -
[471]
On sisi firing against a mackinaw without target painters or anything it took three volleys to take it out. Same bomber setup but with a web, target painter, and torps and it took 4 volleys. Really?
The easy way to solve this would be to make it more versatile to where it can use either siege or cruise launchers. This will clear up the issues it currently has.
www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:21:00 -
[472]
Hm ... 35 bobmbers to kill a plated apoc in one volley (granted without max skills). I think 35 kestrels might be able to do it faster. Granted I'm too lazy to do the math, but they do have better RoF so should be able to get off 2 volleys in the same time bombers get off one.
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Shining Tears
Caldari The DARLEXS
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:48:00 -
[473]
i support the covert cloak idea and the torp :D tho maybe add a timer delay to the torps to
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:55:00 -
[474]
Originally by: BetaZ Is CCP willing to redistribute my skills? I've trained for Cruise, but now I have to reskill for torps. There are legal issues here (false advertising, bait and switch, product misrepresentation, etc). CCP can try to stand behind their ToS, but ToS's are not codified in stone in the court of laws.
This change is a conscious and unnecessary change with financial consequences--it takes time to retrain and retraining cost actual money.
CCP should at least give it some thoughts. We, the customers, should also not allow CCP to unilaterally "extend" our subscriptions through coercion.
this would be a no.. like when they changed torps the last time (pretty bad having 3mill sp spendt there when it totally overhull it :P but that's just eve ^^) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:59:00 -
[475]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/04/2009 05:00:09
Originally by: Carniflex Hm ... 35 bobmbers to kill a plated apoc in one volley (granted without max skills). I think 35 kestrels might be able to do it faster. Granted I'm too lazy to do the math, but they do have better RoF so should be able to get off 2 volleys in the same time bombers get off one.
do the math on both with max skills, or stop making lausy accusasions :P (and NO they can't maxed out dmg bombers without rigs will do around 950 dps, find me anything but a bs that can do that type of insane dps with t2 XD ) edit: and not capital ships ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:01:00 -
[476]
at last i actually think we have our class cannon.. although a extra bonus to torp speed would be nice, to increase it's hit time and range a bit. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:13:00 -
[477]
if the goal is for the bomber to be a high alpha glass cannon, why not give it a role bonus to that effect? +50% torpedo damage and -50% rate of fire . . . what do you think? cause i think 7,500 alpha from a frigate is pretty sweet
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Jerri Garrotte
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:17:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Carniflex Hm ... 35 bobmbers to kill a plated apoc in one volley (granted without max skills). I think 35 kestrels might be able to do it faster. Granted I'm too lazy to do the math, but they do have better RoF so should be able to get off 2 volleys in the same time bombers get off one.
Are you serious?
Kestrel all level 5 4 light rage missile without implants
947 alfa\ 141 Dps i think its not enough to kill BS :)
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Mire Stoude
Cash Money Brothers
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:49:00 -
[479]
Edited by: Mire Stoude on 02/04/2009 05:51:58 Another crazy idea, how about increasing the resists associated to the SB's damage type? That way, a Nemesis could come in, drop a thermal into a fleet and expect to live through the blast with its built in 90% resists (or whatever) to thermal damage.
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place1
Amarr Orion Ore Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.02 06:03:00 -
[480]
I still think people are not actually testing this ship with the new bonuses the damage of Torp's is great. I and another SB duel it out today no painter's or any other EW just pure damage and a torp SB killed another SB in 3 volleys. yes a 45m sig radius SB died in 3 volleys of torps and that's with my very bad missile skills 401k sp and 13 skills non of them at lvl 5 on test server, with proper skills and setup torp SB have great damage even to small fast ships yes assault frigs or interceptors are going to mess a SB up but that's the point there suppose to kill SB fast.
A gang of 2 or 3 SB will kill a BS in a very short time maybe a 1min. Two volleys form a SB will go through any non Shield tanked Battleships shields Armor depending on the tank only takes a few more volleys. Torp on the SB are great.
The down side I am seeing now is with something even I was asking for before, the Cov Op Cloak and 30 sec recloak delay. 30 seconds is far to long any ship will have you locked before that timer is up and so no cloak. If your within 40KM drones will mess you up if they get a lock or if the pilots smart they don't even need the lock, but it is possible to get outside of the 40km range with torps. It agene comes back to the 30 sec recloak. I will do more testing to see if I change my mind but right now I think the Cov Op Cloak should be taken back off the ship and give it the cloak speed boost and 5sec recloak back or allow for both Cov Op Cloak and Non Cov Op Cloak. Non Cov Op Cloak would be like before the change allow 5sec recloak with a minor speed boost (speed boost optional not really important).
This would allow the player to choice when he/she wants to us what cloak. In a bombing run I could see the Cov Op Cloak being better but if your going to Torp fight the Non Cov Op Cloak's would be better.
FYI just for some numbers. Launchers are grouped 1 volley = 3 Torps hitting at once.
1 Volley of Torps did a average of 3500 damage to a BS shields and 2000 damage to armor. No EW on Target. 1 Volley of Torps to a SB 370 shields 300 armor average with no EW on target. 1 Volley of Torps to Cruiser 1500 Shields 850 armor agene no EW on target.
All of this can be increased even more with good missile skills.
FIXES
Something I think needs to get fixed is Heavy drones BS killing drones can kill a SB in 1-2 volley Heavy drones should have a very hard time hitting such a small ship. Seeing as Drones are the number one threat to Stealth Bombers.
I still Like the idea of 2 SB one with the old Cruise missiles at long range and the new Torp medium to close range ships. There not perfect yet but in ether form but getting better. More testing will be done today when I get home from work I have some more ideas for fits and possible roles to try out will come back with my conclusions.
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