Quote:

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Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to Torpedo Explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to Torpedo velocity per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb thermal damage per level
10% bonus to Torpedo thermal damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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wouldn't a cov ops cloak make them overpowerd ?

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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wouldn't a cov ops cloak make them overpowerd ?

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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I really, really wanted the 1000m/s speed while cloaked.

...

CCP, I know you are trying to find a direction that will make people happy and create a specific role for SB at the same time, but I hate this.

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Originally by: Vigaz

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Can you explain me why someone should fly this new ship?

Cheaper solution for same role:
Torp Raven with cloak, fitted with active tank and a sensor booster in the mid.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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I really, really wanted the 1000m/s speed while cloaked.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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It is possible that the torpedo explosion velocity could be exchanged for cloaked velocity bonus.

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Originally by: Eka Lawrencia

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They will also have difficulty to get into position against smaller ships

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Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda

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Originally by: Eka Lawrencia

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They will also have difficulty to get into position against smaller ships

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Yes, because its role is as a bomber, not a frigate killer.

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Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Killed a good ship...
/me spits

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Originally by: something somethingdark

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please dont fix whats barely broken

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Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda

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local intel are a completely separate issue from the usefulness of bomber bonuses.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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I really, really wanted the 1000m/s speed while cloaked.

I hope people are happy. They have their covert ops cloak now which requires no brain to use, and have gotten rid of potentially the most unique tactical advantage given to a ship in this game in exchange.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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Quote:

---

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to Torpedo Explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to Torpedo velocity per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb thermal damage per level
10% bonus to Torpedo thermal damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

---

As ever, everything is subject to change and feedback is welcome on these ideas :)

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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No, i play hello kitty online and just paid for 5 years to come here and make comments about stuff i know nothing about and Wranglers pants.

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Originally by: Oftherocks

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In conclusion, only TomB and Tuxford (and on occasion Sharkbait) should be allowed to make changes to the way the game actually works. The rest of you drones keep making pretty graphics, writing more missions, plugging more memory leaks, and fixing all game lag.

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Originally by: Jalum Krayal

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You should leave stealth bombers as they are, and instead make T2 Destroyers that are geared to kill BSes.

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Quote:

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1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.

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Quote:

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2. Bombers will be able to fit and use siege launchers and fire torpedoes.

This allows them to inflict a high amount of alpha damage on larger targets and be serious threat to them. In gangs with other ships and available strategies will add significant damage to the fleet. They will no longer be able to fit cruise launchers as a result.

---

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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4. They will still use bombs

Nothing is changing on this front for now.

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Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda

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Originally by: Eka Lawrencia

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They will also have difficulty to get into position against smaller ships

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Yes, because its role is as a bomber, not a frigate killer.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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Originally by: Ranger 1

---

I really, really wanted the 1000m/s speed while cloaked.

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It is possible that the torpedo explosion velocity could be exchanged for cloaked velocity bonus. Certainly not ruling such an idea out for now though we are bordering on a ship which will be too much winsauce soon. Will see how things pan out so watch this space.

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/03/2009 14:44:04

Originally by: something somethingdark

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please dont fix whats barely broken

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have you flown a Stealth Bomber recently? Currently it is a joke really. No strategic value, no defined role. And regular dps ship will outperform it. A sniper AF is better. A T1 frig with tackle is better, a T1 cruiser is better. At anything the SB cna currently do.

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Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert

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Can Target while cloaked (allows missiles to hit after you've cloaked again)


There, now it's useful.

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

---

Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert

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Can Target while cloaked (allows missiles to hit after you've cloaked again)


There, now it's useful.

---

er..and how do you kill one?

sounds overpowered to me.

C.

---

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

---

Continuing on from the previous thread, we would like to start fresh with feedback on the ideas below which will be put onto sisi for further playtesting and feedback in the days and weeks ahead.

We are looking into improving and focusing bombers to be more bomber like with a more focused target group and bonuses which compliment this role much better.

The role of a stealthy glass cannon is to ambush and deliver a large amount of firepower through volleys of torpedoes onto large targets. To facilitate this new role better, the bonuses and some of the attributes are being changed appropriately.

So what are we looking at changing exactly?

1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.

2. Bombers will be able to fit and use siege launchers and fire torpedoes.

This allows them to inflict a high amount of alpha damage on larger targets and be serious threat to them. In gangs with other ships and available strategies will add significant damage to the fleet. They will no longer be able to fit cruise launchers as a result.

3. Bombers will gain bonuses to torpedoes

Each racial bomber will gain a damage bonus to their racial damage torpedoes (EM = amarr, Explosive = minmatar, Kinetic = caldari, thermal = gallente) and a torpedo explosion velocity bonus so they can better hit large targets which are moving in addition to a torpedo velocity bonus increasing the range and speed of the attack.

4. They will still use bombs

Nothing is changing on this front for now.


So an example Nemesis bonus description will be like this:

Quote:

---

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to Torpedo Explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to Torpedo velocity per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb thermal damage per level
10% bonus to Torpedo thermal damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

---

As ever, everything is subject to change and feedback is welcome on these ideas :)

---

Originally by: MrFahrenheit

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Originally by: Cailais

---

Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert

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Can Target while cloaked (allows missiles to hit after you've cloaked again)


There, now it's useful.

---

er..and how do you kill one?

sounds overpowered to me.

C.

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Umm at any time during the 30 second recloaking delay?

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Capa

---

So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

---

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

---

As ever, everything is subject to change and feedback is welcome on these ideas :)

---

Quote:

---

Not wanting to sound disrespectful here, but have you read all 14 pages of the Stealth Bomber thread?
Everyone in there is against Torpedoes and close range, why are you pressing on the matter when the players who are going to use the new Stealth Bomber all don't agree with the change?

In addition, a 30 second reactivation delay when you are 30km away from your target means only one thing: Death.

Please, please, p-l-e-a-s-e try to understand a Stealth Bomber under 50km is a dead Stealth Bomber.
They have no tank, they have no means of cloaking when locked (and with your 30 second delay they'd be screwed even more).

The only way to make Stealth Bombers viable at close range is if they are not focused on fighting purely Battleships, have some small amount of tank in case of drones and can cloak while locked for something like 10 seconds after decloaking.
Sensor damps won't help against multiple targets.

Torpedoes.at.close.range.will.not.work.
Regardless of how much you want it to.

Also, if you intend to ignore the entire Stealth Bomber population by still giving Siege Launchers and throwing away Cruise Launchers, please knock it off with these threads giving false hope of us being really listened too.

We don't want a close range, anti-BS, torpedo only Stealth Bomber, try to get that in your head please.

Again, no disrespect meant, but nearly every single piece of feedback in the previous thread has been ignored.

---

Originally by: Cailais

---

Originally by: MrFahrenheit

---

Originally by: Cailais

---

Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert

---

Can Target while cloaked (allows missiles to hit after you've cloaked again)


There, now it's useful.

---

er..and how do you kill one?

sounds overpowered to me.

C.

---

Umm at any time during the 30 second recloaking delay?

---

Not really sensible in large fleet fights with possibly hundreds of targets on overview, plus associated lag - and if that's not an issue then the whole concept falls pretty flat anyway (as you'll lock the SB and its all rather a moot point).

It would just boil down to latency issues in the end.

C.

---

Originally by: Cailais

---

Not really sensible in large fleet fights with possibly hundreds of targets on overview, plus associated lag - and if that's not an issue then the whole concept falls pretty flat anyway (as you'll lock the SB and its all rather a moot point).

It would just boil down to latency issues in the end.

C.

---

Originally by: Vaarun

---

In thinking about it a bit more, gate-camps are going to be very vulnerable now if a half-dozen SB's can warp to their optimal ranges, undetected, align to celestial, declaok, fire, wait a few...then warp off...only to return when thir cloaks refresh.

A well orchestrated alpha is going to hurt someone badly...

I'm going to miss Cruises if these changes go through, but with a few changes in strategy, that range we relied upon with cruise missiles might be made-up for with the covert ops cloak.

Still, these changes don't help much with smaller ships, but I guess that is the destroyer's job...not ours...submarines don't shoot dinghy's...;)

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Originally by: Jack Coldwell

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I am new to Stealth Bombers, but would it not be very hard to kill a Frigate decloaking at less than 30km, locking very fast, applying Scan Resolution Dampener and firing torpedoes before warping away?

How much time does a battleship need to target a dampening stealth bomber?

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Originally by: Thenoran

---

Originally by: Vaarun

---

In thinking about it a bit more, gate-camps are going to be very vulnerable now if a half-dozen SB's can warp to their optimal ranges, undetected, align to celestial, declaok, fire, wait a few...then warp off...only to return when thir cloaks refresh.

A well orchestrated alpha is going to hurt someone badly...

I'm going to miss Cruises if these changes go through, but with a few changes in strategy, that range we relied upon with cruise missiles might be made-up for with the covert ops cloak.

Still, these changes don't help much with smaller ships, but I guess that is the destroyer's job...not ours...submarines don't shoot dinghy's...;)

---

An untanked 20mil frigate against gate guns?

---

Originally by: Nyxus

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Edited by: Nyxus on 30/03/2009 17:54:40
CCP stated goal: The role of a stealthy glass cannon is to ambush and deliver a large amount of firepower through volleys of torpedoes onto large targets.


Citadel bombers would still have range, but slow flight times balance this by forcing the bomber to stay uncloaked mitigating the need for a large reactivation delay. Total volley damage is approximately the same, but a Citadel Bomber would still have the option to fit for anti drones or a bomb launcher. Finally, shooting Citadel Torps out of a frig is omgwtfpwnsauce awesome.

This is an interesting view point. It certainly applies a 'time on target' consideration for the SB pilot. Combine this with a cov ops cloak and a sensible cloaked velocity bonus and these ships could be quite interesting to fly.

C.

Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Ania Tsaluan

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As many have already said, torpedoes and stealth bombers don't mix. Calling these ships glass cannons is a lie. Paper squirt guns is a better analogy.

Assuming the enemy battleship is immobile, and all the torps hit perfectly, and the enemy battleship has 0 HP, the max skilled SB-II pilot will do 2784 damage [using the nemesis]. Now at a base thermal shield resist of 20%, that brings the volley down to 2227.5 damage. So lets make a completely theoretical situation. A group of nemesis bombers attacking a dominix.

The dominix is somewhat-poorly fit as follow:
3x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plate
3x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Damage Control II

This gives the Dominix 149,897 Effective HP versus thermal damage. Now, assuming the dominix is standing still, and all the missiles hit their mark perfectly, they would do about 1900 damage against the shied per volley, requiring 3-4 volleys do down the shield.

To the armor, the volley would drop down to around 750 damage, requiring 30 torp volleys to down the armor... Do its sufficient to say that you are effectively throwing peanuts at the domninix.

If, and I mean if there are 50 stealth bombers to kill this 1 dominix, it will work. In conclusion stealth bomber + torpedows will be useless, even with stupid theoretical build/situation which would never ever ever occur.

---

Originally by: Vall Kor

---

Originally by: Ania Tsaluan

---

As many have already said, torpedoes and stealth bombers don't mix. Calling these ships glass cannons is a lie. Paper squirt guns is a better analogy.

Assuming the enemy battleship is immobile, and all the torps hit perfectly, and the enemy battleship has 0 HP, the max skilled SB-II pilot will do 2784 damage [using the nemesis]. Now at a base thermal shield resist of 20%, that brings the volley down to 2227.5 damage. So lets make a completely theoretical situation. A group of nemesis bombers attacking a dominix.

The dominix is somewhat-poorly fit as follow:
3x 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plate
3x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Damage Control II

This gives the Dominix 149,897 Effective HP versus thermal damage. Now, assuming the dominix is standing still, and all the missiles hit their mark perfectly, they would do about 1900 damage against the shied per volley, requiring 3-4 volleys do down the shield.

To the armor, the volley would drop down to around 750 damage, requiring 30 torp volleys to down the armor... Do its sufficient to say that you are effectively throwing peanuts at the domninix.

If, and I mean if there are 50 stealth bombers to kill this 1 dominix, it will work. In conclusion stealth bomber + torpedows will be useless, even with stupid theoretical build/situation which would never ever ever occur.

---

Not to mention if he has any light drones out at all.

---

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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The role of a stealthy glass cannon is to ambush and deliver a large amount of firepower through volleys of torpedoes onto large targets. To facilitate this new role better, the bonuses and some of the attributes are being changed appropriately.

---

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Introduce a special bomber-only weapon:

The launcher itself has a very high ROF, meaning if you go with cruise missiles, you will have very good dps as long as your missiles last. However, there are two penalties:

a) Small capacity. You do huge dps, but only for a very short time.

b) Long reload time. As in, a full minute or so (ideally with just the standard 10 seconds if you reload out of combat to change missile types).

Both of these ensure that the stealth bomber is a proper ambush ship: you can do devastating damage in a very short amount of time, but if you don't plan your ambush carefully you're going to find yourself with a very angry target and nothing to shoot back with.

---

Originally by: Nymysys

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You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

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Originally by: Thenoran

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Originally by: Nymysys

---

You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

---

Get real, your DPS will not only be pathetic, but with 30 second recloak delay you might end having to warp in uncloaked.
Against Battleships you'd have to warp in and out 30-40+ times assuming nothing else attacks it and it decides not to warp out and giggle. Only when you can actually Alpha something or you're about get hit does warping out have any purpose.

---

Originally by: Vall Kor

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Originally by: Thenoran

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Originally by: Nymysys

---

You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

---

Get real, your DPS will not only be pathetic, but with 30 second recloak delay you might end having to warp in uncloaked.
Against Battleships you'd have to warp in and out 30-40+ times assuming nothing else attacks it and it decides not to warp out and giggle. Only when you can actually Alpha something or you're about get hit does warping out have any purpose.

---

And the BS is AFK!

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Originally by: Thenoran

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Originally by: Nymysys

---

You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

---

Get real, your DPS will not only be pathetic, but with 30 second recloak delay you might end having to warp in uncloaked.
Against Battleships you'd have to warp in and out 30-40+ times assuming nothing else attacks it and it decides not to warp out and giggle. Only when you can actually Alpha something or you're about get hit does warping out have any purpose.

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Originally by: Nymysys

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Everyone complaining about the cloaking delay is flying them wrong, IMO. The cloak is not there as a defensive mechanism; its there to allow you to position yourself correctly. You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it. Thats where the SB's suvivability comes from (if you ever want to be useful, that is).

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Originally by: Nymysys

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I very much doubt your are going to get your pre-missile nerf SB's back.

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Originally by: Nymysys

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Edited by: Nymysys on 30/03/2009 18:26:15

Originally by: Thenoran

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Originally by: Nymysys

---

You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

---

Get real, your DPS will not only be pathetic, but with 30 second recloak delay you might end having to warp in uncloaked.
Against Battleships you'd have to warp in and out 30-40+ times assuming nothing else attacks it and it decides not to warp out and giggle. Only when you can actually Alpha something or you're about get hit does warping out have any purpose.

---

You are making the assumption that CCP has any intention of you soloing a BS with an SB. Just because they want it to attack larger targets does not mean they intend the alpha strike to scale the same as it did pre-missile nerf. The days of popping stationary intys are gone, and will not be coming back.

Three bombs hitting a BS will do 19500 racial damage. If its already being attacked, that will likely getting you the killing blow.

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Originally by: MrFahrenheit

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Not a defensive mechanism? part of the fun of flying SB is the whole uncloak/lock/fire/recloak/relocate while dodging incoming inty's, its one of the ships in eve that takes some actual skill to fly and thats actually pretty fun to play with, yeah they annoy but thats also part of the fun,
and theres little other ships ingame that has the adrenaline pumping as much as a cloaked SB being hunted by several intys dragging drones/fighters around in a vain attempt to decloak you.

---

Quote:

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Dont kill our fun machines nagdammit.

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Originally by: Vall Kor

---

Kinda kills the point of being "anti-" anything if you can not complete your mission in one - three volleys, and then live to tell about. if not then wouldn't it be better to use a recon ship to warp in some Torp Ravens or Scorpions (the updated Scorp)? They have the tank to stay in the fight for more than 1 volley and may actually kill the target BS before dieing.

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Originally by: Nymysys

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Originally by: Vall Kor

---

Kinda kills the point of being "anti-" anything if you can not complete your mission in one - three volleys, and then live to tell about. if not then wouldn't it be better to use a recon ship to warp in some Torp Ravens or Scorpions (the updated Scorp)? They have the tank to stay in the fight for more than 1 volley and may actually kill the target BS before dieing.

---

SB's only one-shot things under specific circumstances pre-missile nerf. That capability is gone for good.

An SB with three bomb launchers can do around 24k racial dmg alpha strike on a BS at CovOps 5. I see that as being helpful in both a fleet and small gang. Its balanced by the fact you can only carry one reload, and the short engagement range; bombs allow greater survivability by allowing the SB to leave grid after bomb deployment, as long as your are aligned and warp immediately. If CCP wants to force the SB into an anti-big ship role, this is a balanced way, I think.

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Originally by: Yuki Li

---

Looks like an excellent idea to me.

Please stop presuming you're supposed to be soloing battleships with these, and consider the effectiveness when used in groups supporting other light ships.

A gang of Interceptors supported by bombers would be a lot of fun I imagine.

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Originally by: Yuki Li

---

Looks like an excellent idea to me.

Please stop presuming you're supposed to be soloing battleships with these, and consider the effectiveness when used in groups supporting other light ships.

A gang of Interceptors supported by bombers would be a lot of fun I imagine.

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Originally by: Vall Kor

---

That would work if you could drop and run/cloak. But we're talking torps here. The devs have a major hard on for torps at the moment. And unless those SBs can pop a BS with out dying, it'd be better off it they were in BSes actually applying DPS to a target with a chance to live longer than 10seconds.

---

Originally by: Thenoran

---

Originally by: Vall Kor

---

Originally by: Thenoran

---

Originally by: Nymysys

---

You get in close, aligned to a celestial or other warp out target, drop cloak, fire, hit, and warp. You then warp back in at distance, cloak, and have another go at it.

---

Get real, your DPS will not only be pathetic, but with 30 second recloak delay you might end having to warp in uncloaked.
Against Battleships you'd have to warp in and out 30-40+ times assuming nothing else attacks it and it decides not to warp out and giggle. Only when you can actually Alpha something or you're about get hit does warping out have any purpose.

---

And the BS is AFK!

---

And untanked with no Damage Control but leaving the MWD on for sig bonus.

---

Quote:

---

YES! YES! Now you're getting Chronotis'es vision! I knew you guys would eventually see the light.

Seriously, truly gigantic volley damage increase HAS TO BE HAD if this peg legged idea is to float at all. start at +500% and increase until flying this starts to make sense.

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Originally by: Thenoran

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Provided the Bombers survive after the first volley and that Battleship doesn't have a good enough fleet with him.

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Originally by: Cailais

---

Edited by: Cailais on 30/03/2009 18:14:41

Originally by: Nyxus

---

CCP stated goal: The role of a stealthy glass cannon is to ambush and deliver a large amount of firepower through volleys of torpedoes onto large targets.


Citadel bombers would still have range, but slow flight times balance this by forcing the bomber to stay uncloaked mitigating the need for a large reactivation delay. Total volley damage is approximately the same, but a Citadel Bomber would still have the option to fit for anti drones or a bomb launcher. Finally, shooting Citadel Torps out of a frig is omgwtfpwnsauce awesome.

---

This is an interesting view point. It certainly applies a 'time on target' consideration for the SB pilot. Combine this with a cov ops cloak and a sensible cloaked velocity bonus and these ships could be quite interesting to fly.

C.

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

Originally by: Cailais

---

Edited by: Cailais on 30/03/2009 18:14:41

Originally by: Nyxus

---

CCP stated goal: The role of a stealthy glass cannon is to ambush and deliver a large amount of firepower through volleys of torpedoes onto large targets.


Citadel bombers would still have range, but slow flight times balance this by forcing the bomber to stay uncloaked mitigating the need for a large reactivation delay. Total volley damage is approximately the same, but a Citadel Bomber would still have the option to fit for anti drones or a bomb launcher. Finally, shooting Citadel Torps out of a frig is omgwtfpwnsauce awesome.

---

This is an interesting view point. It certainly applies a 'time on target' consideration for the SB pilot. Combine this with a cov ops cloak and a sensible cloaked velocity bonus and these ships could be quite interesting to fly.

C.

---

But it makes no sense. The citadels are the size of frigs. How do you expact a frig to fire other frigs

Bombs (if changed) would be far better.

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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But it makes no sense. The citadels are the size of frigs. How do you expact a frig to fire other frigs

Bombs (if changed) would be far better.

---

Originally by: Vall Kor

---

EDIT: and LOL at the "anti-bs" role.... I'd rather BS be anti-bs. The DPS lost because you wanted to bring SBs is a reason NOT to bring SBs. Cruises OR torps, not just torps.

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Originally by: Nyxus

---

Bombs are AoE. That's hell to try to balance. Bring down the cost a bit is about the only thing that I can see making it worthwhile but still balanced.

---

Quote:

---

After looking at the price of citadel launchers, just modify Bomb launchers to be able to launch citadel torps. Tweak explosion radius and damage bonus and it should be good. The low velocity on Citadel Torps would require the bomber stay uncloaked and only target large ships. It should also make the recloaking delay unnecessary.

---

Quote:

---

It would also make them immensely fun, but relatively fragile. It would encourage more mixing of fleets.

---

Originally by: Tonto Auri

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

But it makes no sense. The citadels are the size of frigs. How do you expact a frig to fire other frigs

Bombs (if changed) would be far better.

---

Do you know how these ships are built in reality?

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

No, and neither do you!

---

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

---

Ok, this is much better, but still needs some work.

Quote:

---

1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.

---

This is fair. My only concern here is getting de-cloaked by objects. With the current covops ships, you can almost immediately re-cloak as soon as you get out of range of the object, but bombers are going to be exposed for a full 30 seconds.

Would it be possible to code the delay so it is only triggered once you activate weapons? That way you're still forced to spend a full 30 seconds uncloaked if you want to engage a target, but don't run into problems moving around.

Quote:

---

2. Bombers will be able to fit and use siege launchers and fire torpedoes.

This allows them to inflict a high amount of alpha damage on larger targets and be serious threat to them. In gangs with other ships and available strategies will add significant damage to the fleet. They will no longer be able to fit cruise launchers as a result.

---

I'm still not happy with this one. There are three fundamental problems here:


1) Torps are redundant. You already have a short-range, high-damage weapon: bombs. And it's even a weapon that is most effective against battleships. If you fix bombs correctly (most importantly, reduce the absurd cost), the only reason you'd ever need to use torps on a bomber is if you refuse to remove the 0.0-only limitation.

2) Bombers are paper. Survival odds for a stealth bomber are bad enough as it is, de-cloak within 24km of anything with guns and you'll be in a pod within seconds. The only defense a stealth bomber currently has is its long range, and now you want to take that away? I don't see bombers getting an AF's resists or an interceptor's speed without becoming too powerful, so they really need to keep their range.

3) Wasted skills suck. Since stealth bombers are the only cruise missile ship (or even missile ship at all) for a lot of players, changing them to use torps means wasted SP, especially if they trained T2 cruise.




But as I said in the other thread, there is a better way of doing this:


1) Introduce a special bomber-only weapon: covert warhead launcher. You can load one of two options:

a) 5x cruise missiles.

OR

b) 1x bomb.

The launcher itself has a very high ROF, meaning if you go with cruise missiles, you will have very good dps as long as your missiles last. However, there are two penalties:

a) Small capacity. You do huge dps, but only for a very short time.

b) Long reload time. As in, a full minute or so (ideally with just the standard 10 seconds if you reload out of combat to change missile types).

Both of these ensure that the stealth bomber is a proper ambush ship: you can do devastating damage in a very short amount of time, but if you don't plan your ambush carefully you're going to find yourself with a very angry target and nothing to shoot back with.

---

Originally by: yani dumyat

---

If you really must make the bomber only able to hit BS then please give us all the stuff you've removed back in a new frigate that covers smaller targets please

---

Originally by: Tonto Auri

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

No, and neither do you!

---

How could you know? Do you know me IRL?

---

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

---

Ok, this is much better, but still needs some work.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.

---

This is fair. My only concern here is getting de-cloaked by objects. With the current covops ships, you can almost immediately re-cloak as soon as you get out of range of the object, but bombers are going to be exposed for a full 30 seconds.

---

Quote:

---

Would it be possible to code the delay so it is only triggered once you activate weapons? That way you're still forced to spend a full 30 seconds uncloaked if you want to engage a target, but don't run into problems moving around.

---

Quote:

---

1) Torps are redundant. You already have a short-range, high-damage weapon: bombs. And it's even a weapon that is most effective against battleships. If you fix bombs correctly (most importantly, reduce the absurd cost), the only reason you'd ever need to use torps on a bomber is if you refuse to remove the 0.0-only limitation.

---

Quote:

---

3) Wasted skills suck. Since stealth bombers are the only cruise missile ship (or even missile ship at all) for a lot of players, changing them to use torps means wasted SP, especially if they trained T2 cruise.

---

Quote:

---

But as I said in the other thread, there is a better way of doing this:


1) Introduce a special bomber-only weapon: covert warhead launcher. You can load one of two options:

---

Quote:

---

a) 5x cruise missiles.

OR

b) 1x bomb.

The launcher itself has a very high ROF, meaning if you go with cruise missiles, you will have very good dps as long as your missiles last.

---

Quote:

---

However, there are two penalties:

a) Small capacity. You do huge dps, but only for a very short time.

---

Quote:

---

b) Long reload time. As in, a full minute or so (ideally with just the standard 10 seconds if you reload out of combat to change missile types).

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

Originally by: Tonto Auri

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

No, and neither do you!

---

How could you know? Do you know me IRL?

---

Makes no difference, there are no future space ships in the current RL.

---

Originally by: Vall Kor

---

Cruises OR torps, not just torps.

---

Originally by: Tonto Auri

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

Originally by: Tonto Auri

---

Originally by: Lindsay Logan

---

No, and neither do you!

---

How could you know? Do you know me IRL?

---

Makes no difference, there are no future space ships in the current RL.

---

So, that answer was no. Then, please do not make any assumptions based on your lack of knowledge any more.

---

43.5 m/s *2 *2 *2 = 348 m/s

Originally by: Capa

---

So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

---

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.
[/quote

---

This is the only problem I have. I would far, far rather use an Improved Cloak II and be unable to warp cloaked, with the old 5 second reactivation delay.

One of the main complaints in the last thread was being too much of a target while up close and personal. A 30 second delay makes that far more likely.

The explosion velocity and damage bonuses are much more in-line with being capable of doing significant enough damage to matter, but considering they still have (and shouldn't have) a tank -other- than cloak, they'll simply drop like flies the moment they release their first volley. The only thing I can think of to prevent that is warping away then warping back.

I'd still prefer a choice there: IC II (even without current velocity bonus) and 5 second re-cloak delay or use Cov Ops and gain both cloak-warp and higher cloaked speed (since there's no penalty) but 30 second re-cloak delay.

Originally by: Marlenus

---

And the torps will be awesome in an anti-hauler / anti-barge role.

---

Originally by: J Valkor

---

So this means that Stealth Bombers along with Force Recons will be the only things in the game with covert ops cloaks?

How would those two ships types working in tandem do? The new falcon + the new manticores in teams of 3-5? Could they effectively perma jam the enemy ship while being able to whittle away at it and deal with drones?

How about curses+its stealth bombers?

Would covert ops cloaks make bombs work?

---

• Stealth bombers would equal a very real threat to battleships, so your fleet brings destroyers/interceptors to deal with the bombers and their bombs.


• You want to clear the other fleet's screening ships, so you bring your own cruisers/HACs/assault ships to clear the way for your bombers


• You want to neutralize the threat to your screening ships, so you bring Battlecruisers/EW ships to disable or destroy enemy anti-support snipers/brawlers.

Originally by: CrestoftheStars

---

in my opinion just give it the abillity to use cov up cloaks, let it keep the cruise missiles, give it a -50% rof on cruise missiles, and a -50% fight time and a +50% flight speed and a 60% dmg increase on cruise missiles per lvl (bringing it too a 300% increase in dmg at max lvl instead of the 50% it have now, giving it a effective dps of around 500 from a long range and a alpha at around 10k (although 7,5k would properly be more appropriated) (sorry if my match is of it's 5 in the morning here :P ).
this would give it the additional alphe accepted dps, while keeping it at long range, still letting it hit within a decend time and let it come in as a "stealth ship" (maybe removing the cov cloak, or it will properly be too overpowered).

but anyway numbers may be off, but this is the direction i think it should go. You'd think 15 pages of us totally rejected the idea of torps would get the point across but guess not.
totally redesigning it becouse the balance is a bit off, well that just seems like a very wrong way to go..

(which i was part of the balance team, man i love fidling with balance :P )

---

Originally by: Devasatation

---

Something like this perhaps?
---
Name: Purifier
Role: Precision Stealth Bomber
Developer: Viziam

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus:
-15% reduction in Explosion Velocity of Cruise Missiles
-15% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
10% Increase in Scan Resolution
200% increase in cloaked velocity


Role Bonus:
-99% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs
-100% targeting delay after decloaking

---

Name: *whatever*
Role: Seige Stealth Bomber
Developer: Kahnid

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to Torpedo Explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to Torpedo velocity per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb EM damage per level
20% bonus to Torpedo EM damage per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-100% targeting delay after decloaking
-99% Reduction in covert ops cloak cpu use

---
IMO give player the choice of if they want a close range anti-bs brawler like the devs are suggesting, or a long range anti-frigate sniper like we have already. Since half of the people here seem to want the new bombers and the other half want to keep the old ones :\

---

Originally by: yani dumyat

---

Reading through this thread and the previous one the pure ingenuity of the pilots compared to the falcon thread is quite something.

If you really must make the bomber only able to hit BS then please give us all the stuff you've removed back in a new frigate that covers smaller targets please

---

Originally by: Spazzle - Goonfleet.com

---

Stealth bombers should probably be reduced to bomb droppers, and optimized for that. I'd probably do something like the following

1) Remove the missile bonuses form the damn things
2) Make bombs costs like 0.1-0.5M isk
3) Remove the damage bombs
4) Add more status effect bombs, like things that add heat damage or slow ships down for a bit in addition to the existing cap bomb and ecm bomb.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

As things stand, I'd currently put money on my pest taking out half a dozen of these guys before going down - and the odds get so much worse the more BS's there are around.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Holy Lowlander

---

wouldn't a cov ops cloak make them overpowerd ?

---

Originally by: Shun Makoto

---

I don't know what you're thinking Chronotis.

What is the Stealth Bomber's Real life counter-part? The Submarine.

What do the Subs of today do?

They breach the surface, launch ICBMs and then dive and run silent.

Uncloak | Launch Cruise Missiles | Recloak and move to another spot

THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL STEALTH BOMBER.

Stealth Bomber's already got Nerfed. DON'T NERF THEM MORE


/burns SB Changes

---

Originally by: retro mike

---

Edited by: retro mike on 31/03/2009 08:04:50

Yes, I can imagine CCP Chronotis as a kid. Nobody was allowed to play with his train set apart from him. Whats the point of leaving feedback if you dont listen.


There was nothing wrong with the old bomber that a boost to explosion velocity to cruise wouldnt fix, BUT NO!! He has been harbouring this stupid idea of changing the entire role of bombers and just wont let the idea go.

Dont be so bone-idle Chrono, if you want this type of ship create a new class and leave the bomber as it was.

grz

---

Originally by: retro mike

---

Yes, I can imagine CCP Chronotis as a kid. Nobody was allowed to play with his train set apart from him. Whats the point of leaving feedback if you dont listen.


There was nothing wrong with the old bomber that a boost to explosion velocity to cruise wouldnt fix, BUT NO!! He has been harbouring this stupid idea of changing the entire role of bombers and just wont let the idea go.

Dont be so bone-idle Chrono, if you want this type of ship create a new class and leave the bomber as it was.

---

Originally by: The Merc

---

well, i am a bomber pilot and have been for a loong time.

thank you for messing with my skill training.
you realy make it a fun game to play
when we work hard for something and when we
archive our goal, u take it away.

Bombers where fine as they where.
if u know how to use them.
i feel they now have got
major nerf.

Some of it seems intresting but alot of it not.
i have got used to the stealthbomber as it is and loving it.
but you are changing things so badly i dont know if il be flying it anymore, it is a difference of tweaking it for the better than converting it to something totaly different.

---

Originally by: retro mike

---

Originally by: The Merc

---

when we work hard for something and when we
archive our goal, u take it away.

Some of it seems intresting but alot of it not.
i have got used to the stealthbomber as it is and loving it.
but you are changing things so badly i dont know if il be flying it anymore, it is a difference of tweaking it for the better than converting it to something totaly different.

---

this

I see I am not the only long-term bomber pilot that thinks this

---

Originally by: Artemis Dragmire

---

I still think torp based SBs sound awesome.

I haven't run the numbers but a small gang of these could be quite a frightful thing indeed. Combined with a couple interceptors for target painting and webbing work and you could see 1-2 volley kills on anything BC or smaller.

Do want my klingon bird of prey style suicide glass cannons of death.

---

Originally by: Gner Dechast

---

Edited by: Gner Dechast on 31/03/2009 09:16:01

Originally by: Artemis Dragmire

---

I still think torp based SBs sound awesome.

I haven't run the numbers but a small gang of these could be quite a frightful thing indeed. Combined with a couple interceptors for target painting and webbing work and you could see 1-2 volley kills on anything BC or smaller.

Do want my klingon bird of prey style suicide glass cannons of death.

---

Yes, I imagine you want one...

This is the problem with this whole Torpedo change, not enough REAL piloting hours with the actual ship, too much fertile imagination that has not enough connection points to the game-reality.

"ZOOM ZOOM BOOOOM! Like that, yea awesome!"

PvP is 99% of all the stuff that happens BEFORE you press F1, F2, F3.... after that you are left usually with very few decisions anymore - mostly involving if to bail out.

Try to approach us with this in mind, EXPLAIN yourselves WHY do you think your new idea is good. EXPLAIN how and in what kind of an environment does it work.

That would take this a long way and would not make this sound like "we firmly believe that stabbing you guys in the back is a really good idea" which atleast good portion of people here more or less take it.

EDIT: While this quotes Artemis Dragmire, this is directed to CCP - sorry about the ambiquity.

---

1. This Covert Ops Cloak thing is not right. Not with the penalty suggested. Drop it.


2. Chronotis' grudge with SB's lies within the range, hence the stubborn drive to REDUNDANT short range torpedoes. (the role he suggests IS already there in the bombs)


3. Better compromise would be to penalise cruise missile range and...


4. Creation of a new class is in order, IF Chronotis genuinely believes in point-blank range paper thing torpedo boat (if this was only to maim SB's and range nerf is acceptable, no new class is needed)


5. There is no reason that I can come up with NOT to allow bombs in lowsec. Bomb damage is feeble in comparison to realistic ship ehp's and should be checked.


6. To my knowledge, up to this date, CCP has not made a complete redesign on a ship that directly obsoletes customer skillpoints and this sets a baseline how will CCP deal with this kind of thing, if original idea is indeed pushed through

Quote:

---

Frigate Skill Bonus:
-20% targeting delay per level // *shrug* role bonus is already rather stuffed
+10% cloaked velocity per level // or missile velocity, but i dont see the "huge" need for 20->30km unless you really want them to go dampen the heck out of every bs/bc

Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to rate of fire of siege missile launchers per level
98% to 100% reduction of cloak CPU per level

Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-can fit cov op cynos

---

Originally by: Mohenna

---

Guys this is a company, think project management. They wouldn't assign the resources necessary to do code changes just for the SB users. So balance adjustments only, think of this what you want, but it's quite obvious between the lines.

So, no to bomb launcher overhaul, and obviously no new ships. No fixing of 0 damage after warping or cloaking.
Otoh, a very short delay between launch and delivery makes it unnecessary, so I see the reasons behind torps and torp speed at least. Chronotis had a good idea given the harsh preconditions! Some offensive posts above are done by persons not intelligent enough to read between the lines.

But why would you FORCE this?!

Chronotis: leave us free to choose! Make it two ships in one, avoiding the need for a new class:
- standard cloak + cloak speed bonus, OR covops cloak + reactivation delay
- old cruise bonus AND new torp bonus;
Choose modules at station, as usual. It's not like you can use these boni at the same time. It gives the ship flexibility, not more power.

---

Originally by: Morpheus77

---

Originally by: Mohenna

---

Guys this is a company, think project management. They wouldn't assign the resources necessary to do code changes just for the SB users. So balance adjustments only, think of this what you want, but it's quite obvious between the lines.

So, no to bomb launcher overhaul, and obviously no new ships. No fixing of 0 damage after warping or cloaking.
Otoh, a very short delay between launch and delivery makes it unnecessary, so I see the reasons behind torps and torp speed at least. Chronotis had a good idea given the harsh preconditions! Some offensive posts above are done by persons not intelligent enough to read between the lines.

But why would you FORCE this?!

Chronotis: leave us free to choose! Make it two ships in one, avoiding the need for a new class:
- standard cloak + cloak speed bonus, OR covops cloak + reactivation delay
- old cruise bonus AND new torp bonus;
Choose modules at station, as usual. It's not like you can use these boni at the same time. It gives the ship flexibility, not more power.

---

This works for everyone.

---

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

---

Ok, this is much better, but still needs some work.

Quote:

---

1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak

However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential.

---

This is fair. My only concern here is getting de-cloaked by objects. With the current covops ships, you can almost immediately re-cloak as soon as you get out of range of the object, but bombers are going to be exposed for a full 30 seconds.

Would it be possible to code the delay so it is only triggered once you activate weapons? That way you're still forced to spend a full 30 seconds uncloaked if you want to engage a target, but don't run into problems moving around.

Quote:

---

2. Bombers will be able to fit and use siege launchers and fire torpedoes.

This allows them to inflict a high amount of alpha damage on larger targets and be serious threat to them. In gangs with other ships and available strategies will add significant damage to the fleet. They will no longer be able to fit cruise launchers as a result.

---

I'm still not happy with this one. There are three fundamental problems here:


1) Torps are redundant. You already have a short-range, high-damage weapon: bombs. And it's even a weapon that is most effective against battleships. If you fix bombs correctly (most importantly, reduce the absurd cost), the only reason you'd ever need to use torps on a bomber is if you refuse to remove the 0.0-only limitation.

2) Bombers are paper. Survival odds for a stealth bomber are bad enough as it is, de-cloak within 24km of anything with guns and you'll be in a pod within seconds. The only defense a stealth bomber currently has is its long range, and now you want to take that away? I don't see bombers getting an AF's resists or an interceptor's speed without becoming too powerful, so they really need to keep their range.

3) Wasted skills suck. Since stealth bombers are the only cruise missile ship (or even missile ship at all) for a lot of players, changing them to use torps means wasted SP, especially if they trained T2 cruise.




But as I said in the other thread, there is a better way of doing this:


1) Introduce a special bomber-only weapon: covert warhead launcher. You can load one of two options:

a) 5x cruise missiles.

OR

b) 1x bomb.

The launcher itself has a very high ROF, meaning if you go with cruise missiles, you will have very good dps as long as your missiles last. However, there are two penalties:

a) Small capacity. You do huge dps, but only for a very short time.

b) Long reload time. As in, a full minute or so (ideally with just the standard 10 seconds if you reload out of combat to change missile types).

Both of these ensure that the stealth bomber is a proper ambush ship: you can do devastating damage in a very short amount of time, but if you don't plan your ambush carefully you're going to find yourself with a very angry target and nothing to shoot back with.


2) Fix bombs. Make them proper short-range AOE weapons. This means the following:

a) Reduce the cost to something comparable to interdictor bubbles. High enough that buying a stack of 500 is a noticeable dent in your wallet, but low enough to use without hesitation.

b) Remove the 0.0-only limit. No more toys for just the rich alliances. Do NOT, however, change CONCORD/sec hit/sentry response, bombs are use-at-own-risk, just like smartbombs and ECM bursts.

c) Balance their damage/blast radius/etc appropriately for their new cost (remember, you can launch up to three at once).




There. Bombers are now fixed, and everyone is happy.

---