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Rockets are out of balance

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Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.04.03 19:31:00 - [31] No not a 'simple' comparison at all. I'm fully aware of falloff and tracking will reduce autocannon DPS. But so will sigradius and linear speed to a rocket. Using Stafens' missile damage calculator and you see that rockets vs an MWD'ing inty in an orbit of 3000m/s suffer a 68.1% reduction to damage. Easily matching if not out-stripping the autocannons damage reduction. To regrade the damage reduction through motion of just autocannons and ignore damage reduction of missiles under the same criteria would be "EFT ftl", "meaningless" and "stupid". So, given that both rockets and autocannons suffer approximately the same percentage of damage reduction against the same target under the same conditions then it really does boil down to which has the higher base DPS and my original point that a rocket launcher II with +15% faction ammo and +25% ship bonus will only match an unbonused 200mm autocannon with barrage still stands. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.04.03 20:56:00 - [32] A fully tackled inty (scram+web) is not going to go 3000m/s and the damage reduction to missiles is going to be negligible. The falloff reduction from Barrage is going to be in the 30%-50% range. Fit a crow with autocannons and come to Syndicate. I'll take you in my rocket crow any time :-) Rockets deliver consistent, reliable DPS at acceptable quantities while freeing the ship to perform maneuvers to reduce the damage done to it. A turret-fit ship can't reduce the DPS applied to it without reducing its own DPS. Heck, what am I saying?? Boost rockets!
Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.03 22:04:00 - [33] If rockets did get a buff they'd have to change the bonuses on the smaller Khanid ships to make sure they remained gimped. Maybe a bonus to salvager range or tractor beam energy use.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.04.03 22:47:00 - [34] some people still dont understand the missile dmg formula :> if explo radius < ship sig radius, you can still deal nearly full dmg even if it normally would reduce it due to speed, the problem is the BASE dmg that rockets do is crap. increasing it by 10% wouldnt hurt.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.04.04 00:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Faffywaffy A fully tackled inty (scram+web) is not going to go 3000m/s and the damage reduction to missiles is going to be negligible. The falloff reduction from Barrage is going to be in the 30%-50% range. Fit a crow with autocannons and come to Syndicate. I'll take you in my rocket crow any time :-) Rockets deliver consistent, reliable DPS at acceptable quantities while freeing the ship to perform maneuvers to reduce the damage done to it. A turret-fit ship can't reduce the DPS applied to it without reducing its own DPS. Heck, what am I saying?? Boost rockets! Again though, you can't have a basis for comparison by using bunch of arbitrary conditions. In your example you've got a Crow (double missile damage bonus and range bonus) running a scram and web on a gun-neutral A-N-Other inty using unbonused autocannons at an perfect 9-10kM that you can dictate. If you want a fair comparison then swap the kinetic rockets for a different type. compare your now-unbonused rocket damage to unbonused autocannon damage. With all other conditions being equal. Your position is that the rocket crow is on a par with pulse crusader, you own kill record suggests otherwise as you have qualitatively better kills in your pulse sader (particularly this one). My position is a rocket crow (with double damage bonus and range bonus) is marginally behind any of the other short range intys (pulse sader, AC claw, blaster ranis). As soon as you get away from the crow and into a vengeance or a malediction you really start to see how bad rockets are. My solution is give rockets a 15% base damage boost and split the crows damage bonus into +5% kinetic damage and +5% standard missile damage. Standard missile crow remains the same, rocket crow gets a minor buff, vengeance and malediction a significant buff. Rocket crow gets keeps its range advantage vs malediction, Malediction gets variable damage vs rocket crow. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Patrice Macmahon Colonial Marines EVE Division	Posted - 2009.04.04 01:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Mystafyre Rockets need some love from CCP. Give Caldari a chance to have fun with rockets! Come one, maxed out skills, 3x BCU T2 at lows, crow can make little over 110 dps with faction rockets! It really can't fit those 3x BCU because CPU ends when you try to fit the second lol. BUFF ROCKETS AND CPU ON CROW!! Blaster taranis does like 250 dps!! Rockets are allready pretty nasty, you can set for max speed orbit around 4000 m3 and still hit your target EVERY time.... Zero tracking = Moar effective DPS... Its how I take out T2 frigs in a tristan.... The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.04.04 04:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Tozmeister Originally by: Faffywaffy A fully tackled inty (scram+web) is not going to go 3000m/s and the damage reduction to missiles is going to be negligible. The falloff reduction from Barrage is going to be in the 30%-50% range. Fit a crow with autocannons and come to Syndicate. I'll take you in my rocket crow any time :-) Rockets deliver consistent, reliable DPS at acceptable quantities while freeing the ship to perform maneuvers to reduce the damage done to it. A turret-fit ship can't reduce the DPS applied to it without reducing its own DPS. Heck, what am I saying?? Boost rockets! Again though, you can't have a basis for comparison by using bunch of arbitrary conditions. In your example you've got a Crow (double missile damage bonus and range bonus) running a scram and web on a gun-neutral A-N-Other inty using unbonused autocannons at an perfect 9-10kM that you can dictate. If you want a fair comparison then swap the kinetic rockets for a different type. compare your now-unbonused rocket damage to unbonused autocannon damage. With all other conditions being equal. I have no idea what you're talking about. You (or maybe it was someone else) said unbonused ACs were better than bonused rockets. That's what I'm comparing. You can't always dictate range, but at most ranges the rockets are going to be better. At near zero range, they will be about equal. Originally by: Tozmeister Your position is that the rocket crow is on a par with pulse crusader, you own kill record suggests otherwise as you have qualitatively better kills in your pulse sader (particularly this one). Flattery won't help you. Just because it was fully faction-fit doesn't mean it isn't a lol-fit. That thing would've died to a strong gust of wind. Originally by: Tozmeister My position is a rocket crow (with double damage bonus and range bonus) is marginally behind any of the other short range intys (pulse sader, AC claw, blaster ranis). As soon as you get away from the crow and into a vengeance or a malediction you really start to see how bad rockets are. In a 1v1 fight between these, yes, I agree (except with the pulse sader - it's about equal). The crow does, however, remain a much better tackler (3 midslots vs. sader and claw's 2, much faster than a taranis) while being, as you say, marginally behind the other dogfighting inties. It's a tradeoff.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.04.04 08:57:00 - [38] Here's the thing, you keep using the crow as your base rocket boat. It's the bonuses of the crow that make rockets reasonable. As soon as you get in a vengeance or a malediction you see where rockets really are. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.04 09:57:00 - [39] Only thing that rockets have against them are that they don't deal near full their dps potential to frigs. Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.04.04 12:09:00 - [40] Edited by: TraininVain on 04/04/2009 12:14:11 If rockets get a significant damage boost then they need to lose some range tbh. As it is they have (according to my EFT) 15km range on a Crow. This puts the user outside web/scram range too. The DPS they do isn't even a curve. It's a flat line which autocannons for example wouldn't be. This is not an insignificant point. I really like that "rDPS" concept floating around the forums because the paper DPS is subject to so many factors. If a weapon can do consistent, reliable damage it's probably got higher Damage Per Minute than a situational high damage weapon. Now that said it does look like they suffer from real damage mitigation hitting targets under MWD but then so do all the other weapon systems so that needs to be looked at carefully. I'd support maybe a moderate damage bump for targets under MWD but nothing really drastic unless their range makes the user vulnerable to fun and games in the same way as the short range turret inties are.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2009.04.04 13:18:00 - [41] Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are fine if you know how to use them. Funny thing is... the two guys you popped were also rocket crows. So, based on that link you can say: * rockets are kickass as you beat two other inties with one rocket crow * rockets suck bigtime as two rockets crows got owned by one other inty
Meazy San	Posted - 2009.04.04 13:28:00 - [42] Originally by: Tykkis hehe. don't compare ceptors to taranis. it's it's own class of ships called fotm. but rockets do royally suck! Well actually the Ranis has always been "fotm" even when the gistii crows use to prowl there were always a significant amount of ranis pilots.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.04.04 13:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Originally by: Faffywaffy Rockets are fine if you know how to use them. Funny thing is... the two guys you popped were also rocket crows. So, based on that link you can say: * rockets are kickass as you beat two other inties with one rocket crow * rockets suck bigtime as two rockets crows got owned by one other inty Only one of them was a rocket-crow, and it was a fail-fit (no web, no DC, CPR??).
Dirk Culliford H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.04 13:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Mystafyre Rockets need some love from CCP. Give Caldari a chance to have fun with rockets! Come one, maxed out skills, 3x BCU T2 at lows, crow can make little over 110 dps with faction rockets! It really can't fit those 3x BCU because CPU ends when you try to fit the second lol. BUFF ROCKETS AND CPU ON CROW!! Blaster taranis does like 250 dps!! you realise the blaster ranis has to orbit at something like 750m/s at 1km out from target to do the 250 dps right? Instantly putting them inside scram and web range....what about your crow? oh right.....
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.04.04 15:30:00 - [45] It is absurd how bad rockets are. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Joeanne Card	Posted - 2009.04.19 19:44:00 - [46] read the rocket description think about what ships get rocket bonus's there fleet ships ffs rockets are for raping drones get over it
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.04.19 19:57:00 - [47] Rockets are teh suck. Buff rockets!
Badly Dazzled	Posted - 2009.04.20 08:49:00 - [48] Poor rocket dps is kinda offset by the awesome look of khanid frigs but . . . as of now theyre inferior to their t1 brothers, raising bonus to 10% (evn jus 7.5) for dmage may jus b their saving grace Crow ppl use light mzles, rockets are fo Khanid
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.20 12:56:00 - [49] Rocket lover, cry your indignation in the devs' balance thread too! Originally by: Patrice Macmahon Rockets are allready pretty nasty, you can set for max speed orbit around 4000 m3 and still hit your target EVERY time.... Zero tracking = Moar effective DPS... Its how I take out T2 frigs in a tristan.... Try that. The rockets start their motion away from your orbit (unlike turrets, missiles aren't aimed: they begin their movement in the direction the ship is facing). Then, they accelerate towards the target's current position, which in orbit is not the position in which the target is a moment later: so, they have to follow the target. This means that in a 4k orbit they won't reach the target if both ships are fast enough. You can see this for yourself by finding the maximum range you can hit a roid with rockets (which is different than flight speedtime thanks to rocket acceleration) and then starting to orbit the target fast enough. Originally by:* Joeanne Card rockets are for raping drones If that's true, they're fail at that too: because against drones they get some 95% damage reduction factoring in speed and sig.
Shaitis Caldari Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.20 18:21:00 - [50] Rockets doesnt need damage,speed or radius bonus, all it needs is ROF bonus. Even in RL rockets as an ungided weapon are beeing launched in packs, several same time from same launcher. We should be able to launch multiple rockets (if not all from launcher) and than wait with long reload time.
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.20 22:45:00 - [51] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 20/04/2009 22:45:53 Sorry, but anyone who thinks rockets are "balanced" right now is an idiot. Damage is just pure lol, and you never actually get your full theoretical maximum range. Forget just comparing weapon to weapon, compare ship to ship and every ship based around rockets sucks. The rocket Crow is terrible, only marginally "better" dps than the standard missile Crow, with pathetic range that requires it to get into web range to hit anything. The Malediction is trash. Pathetic range on a ship with a bonus to warp disruptor range? Lol? The Hawk is the worst AF by a solid margin, and is completely outclassed by the Harpy in every possible way. Less dps, less tank, major fitting issues, what more could you ask for? The Vengeance is the only ship that gives the Hawk any competition for its title as worst AF. The only marginally redeeming quality the Vengeance has is the ability to fit turrets. Hint to the clueless: *the Vengeance is better with ACs than with the rockets it has a bonus to. Do you see the problem? The Heretic only manages to be decent because the Eris and Flycatcher are so terrible, and it's still well behind the Sabre in pretty much everything. Swapping the bonuses to the laser bonuses from the Coercer would be a HUGE improvement. The solution: double rocket base damage, at least*. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Vyllana	Posted - 2009.04.21 01:32:00 - [52] Rockets are by far the weakest weapon system in the game. Definitely need a significant boost, both to their base damage and to their effectiveness in delivering that base damage (i.e. explosion velocity).
Lysander Krieg	Posted - 2009.04.21 03:34:00 - [53] I agree that rockets are absolutely woeful in nearly every aspect, however, they should just be left as they are. Increase damage? At what cost? CC(C)P take more more than they ever give in my opinion, so yes they may graciously give you X% base damage increase, but it will come with a cost, usually one that offsets the gain by at least 200%. Rockets just suck, and whilst they may be fun to play with, fire something else for serious play.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2009.04.21 03:50:00 - [54] Just to add a beef with rockets, its rockets clip is ******ed. Atleast a 1/10th of dps is lost in reloading. Its much worse then arty.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.21 05:54:00 - [55] I just did a little EFT warrioring, and came out of it being perplexed. Because personally I'd actually rather fly a punisher than a vengeance. You loose 8 dps, fitting DLP's rather than rockets, you can fit a nos in the spare top-slot and its a fair bit faster. Ok the tanks not as good. But seriously, if you get focused on then you die no matter what either way. I think for the khanid ships, rockets either need SERIOUSLY more range and ideally a fitting decrease too. They use oodles of CPU and thats just mean. Didn't even bother looking at the male, because there's no point trying to come up with a viable set-up for it.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.04.21 08:51:00 - [56] Originally by: Katarlia Simov rockets either need SERIOUSLY more range and ideally a fitting decrease too. No range please. That makes them a confusing bastard hybrid. Rockets should be the blasters of the missile world. If a rocket ship gets into 1km, you're dead.
Rip Striker	Posted - 2009.04.21 09:23:00 - [57] ...with all skills at level 5 the Hawk dishes out 107 kinetic dps and 86 dps of the other damage types (navy ammo). Explosion velocity is 133 m/s. How about that? Many tech 1 frigates can reach those numbers and even exceed them. Simply put: The Hawk cannot hurt other assault frigates. The Hawk cannot hurt a dps-setup-interceptor, even if the interceptor is webbed and scrammed. The Hawk can barely hurt tech 1 frigates. However, if the t1 frig has a repper, well...you better deaggress and go back to mission running. The rockets really need to be looked at. ASAP.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:33:00 - [58] Why the heck are you going close enough for a taranis to hit you if flying a crow ?
Bomerang Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:35:00 - [59] Originally by: Mohenna Originally by: Katarlia Simov rockets either need SERIOUSLY more range and ideally a fitting decrease too. No range please. That makes them a confusing bastard hybrid. Rockets should be the blasters of the missile world. If a rocket ship gets into 1km, you're dead. Yeah, rockets should be more like blasters. If you got to 0m, or have high transversial, the rockets should just say 'splut!' and do no damage at all.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:58:00 - [60] Edited by: Faffywaffy on 21/04/2009 11:58:54 Killmail

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