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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
1072
Amarr
Fliegerkorps
   |
Posted - 2009.04.21 07:25:00 -
[361]
no it is not about zero tackling.
its just about:
A ship, should be able tackle his very own class. Unless target has fitted inertia stabbed or nanoed.
: ) |
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 09:35:00 -
[362]
 Originally by: 1072
no it is not about zero tackling.
its just about:
A ship, should be able tackle his very own class. Unless target has fitted inertia stabbed or nanoed.
Dude, that's exactly the thing I am against.
To clarify the term "zero-time tackling," it is to distinguish itself from the ordinary "tackling," since to perform a zero-time tackling, the ship must have sufficient scan resolution in addtion to a warp disruptor/scrambler fitted.
As I stated in my previous post, zero-time tackling should be an exclusive role for small ships. Making bigger ships able to do so takes away this serious role. To put it in simple terms, if you can fly a bigger ship that can do both zero-time tackling and dps, instead of a frigate that can only do zero-time tackling and negligible dps, why would you want to fly a frigate?
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1072
Amarr
Fliegerkorps
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 11:31:00 -
[363]
Edited by: 1072 on 21/04/2009 11:35:40
Edited by: 1072 on 21/04/2009 11:32:05
well to catch other frigates..
I am not saying a bs should tackle everything; I am just saying a bs should be able tackle another bs. I dont expect to tackle any shiptype rather then my own ship type. So its not zero-tackling; its just "decent" "minimal" tackling capability.
with you way of thinking, we could even ban bs' from fitting disruptors & scramblers. Since they are not supposed to tackle anything.
Nowawadays;
you cant tackle another cruiser in a cruiser.
or you cant tackle another frigate in a frigate. If the target is in a frigate, its imposible to tackle him.
: ) |
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 12:26:00 -
[364]
Edited by: Zero Temperature on 21/04/2009 12:29:43
Originally by: 1072
Edited by: 1072 on 21/04/2009 11:35:40
Edited by: 1072 on 21/04/2009 11:32:05
well to catch other frigates..
I am not saying a bs should tackle everything; I am just saying a bs should be able tackle another bs. I dont expect to tackle any shiptype rather then my own ship type. So its not zero-tackling; its just "decent" "minimal" tackling capability.
with you way of thinking, we could even ban bs' from fitting disruptors & scramblers. Since they are not supposed to tackle anything.
Nowawadays;
you cant tackle another cruiser in a cruiser.
or you cant tackle another frigate in a frigate. If the target is in a frigate, its imposible to tackle him.
You obviously are still missing my point. When a cruiser are able to tackle another cruiser at zero time, they will take away a very importanat job that currently can only be done by frigates. This change will make small ships losing a big chunks of incentives since the higher scan resolution is one of their few usefulness. By reducing the benefit of that extra high scan resolution to only catching frigates, less people will want to fly frigates into combat because their short-comings(such as low dps, low hp) simply can not be justified by the even fewer benefits.
Also this does not mean that bs or so should not fit warp disruptors, because even though small ships can tackle the target at zero time, it doesn't mean they can hold the point forever. Bigger ships still need to take over the point at some stage. And this is why I call it "zero-time tackling."
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.04.21 12:56:00 -
[365]
so... with assault frigates now AB'ing at 75% max speed and >2km instead of the ordered 1km... how about reducing the mass addition of afterburners? yes, it'll make them a bit faster but you can still stack webs contrary to speed boosters. this wouldnt effect the time-to-warp - but it would counter this AF nerf and make ABs slightly more interesting in general (even though they will still be overrun by (much) bigger MWD ships.)
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 15:34:00 -
[366]
Edited by: Raimo on 21/04/2009 15:34:49
Originally by: Zero Temperature
You obviously are still missing my point. When a cruiser are able to tackle another cruiser at zero time, they will take away a very importanat job that currently can only be done by frigates. This change will make small ships losing a big chunks of incentives since the higher scan resolution is one of their few usefulness. By reducing the benefit of that extra high scan resolution to only catching frigates, less people will want to fly frigates into combat because their short-comings(such as low dps, low hp) simply can not be justified by the even fewer benefits.
That has to be the worst reason to oppose these changes... What about solo pvp? A large chunk of active PVPers want their ability to somewhat solo tackle back, and these changes are needed for that... Also many, including me, want non- agility fitted frigates (except for unplated ceptors) tacklable again, at least with sensor boosted ceptors.
And those who enjoy flying frigates will still do so after these changes.
---
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:42:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Raimo
What about solo pvp? A large chunk of active PVPers want their ability to somewhat solo tackle back, and these changes are needed for that...
Tackle still works very well solo, the question once you drop on a target is rather if he is aligned (you never catch those unless they engage) or not, locktime is good enough and no agility change will do anything.
If you are engaging at gates your biggest problem is keeping them from reapproaching or burning away if you are solo apart from being in point range with the huge gates, I'm curious how you'll manage that solo if decent gangs even fail at this sometimes faced with a clever target.
I solo quite a lot and dont see what everyone is crying for here, if I want to catch frigates in my cruiser I'll just fit a sensorbooster like I'm meant to.
Looking at how lowsec population has grown since QR changes, I say keep the current agility so all these nice targets stay there.
One final word about consensual pvp, people seem to get a completely wrong picture what that means. To clarify, it means you dont get a popup-box that says "player has not set his pvp flag, find another target" once you try to shoot him, in no way it means you should be able to compare your gank/tank stats against anything that is on grid. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:44:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Raimo
What about solo pvp? A large chunk of active PVPers want their ability to somewhat solo tackle back, and these changes are needed for that...
Tackle still works very well solo, the question once you drop on a target is rather if he is aligned (you never catch those unless they engage) or not, locktime is good enough and no agility change will do anything.
If you are engaging at gates your biggest problem is keeping them from reapproaching or burning away if you are solo apart from being in point range with the huge gates, I'm curious how you'll manage that solo if decent gangs even fail at this sometimes faced with a clever target.
I solo quite a lot and dont see what everyone is crying for here, if I want to catch frigates in my cruiser I'll just fit a sensorbooster like I'm meant to.
Looking at how lowsec population has grown since QR changes, I say keep the current agility so all these nice targets stay there.
One final word about consensual pvp, people seem to get a completely wrong picture what that means. To clarify, it means you dont get a popup-box that says "player has not set his pvp flag, find another target" once you try to shoot him, in no way it means you should be able to compare your gank/tank stats against anything that is on grid. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:46:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 21/04/2009 20:48:21
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.21 20:47:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Raimo
What about solo pvp? A large chunk of active PVPers want their ability to somewhat solo tackle back, and these changes are needed for that...
Tackle still works very well solo, the question once you drop on a target is rather if he is aligned (you never catch those unless they engage) or not, locktime is good enough and no agility change will do anything.
If you are engaging at gates your biggest problem is keeping them from reapproaching or burning away if you are solo apart from being in point range with the huge gates, I'm curious how you'll manage that solo if decent gangs even fail at this sometimes faced with a clever target.
I solo quite a lot and dont see what everyone is crying for here, if I want to catch frigates in my cruiser I'll just fit a sensorbooster like I'm meant to.
Looking at how lowsec population has grown since QR changes, I say keep the current agility so all these nice targets stay there, and avoid ruining 3/4 of the minmatar ships in a quick-n-ugly fix.
One final word about consensual pvp, people seem to get a completely wrong picture what that means. To clarify, it means you dont get a popup-box that says "player has not set his pvp flag, find another target" once you try to shoot him, in no way it means you should be able to compare your gank/tank stats against anything that is on grid. |
burek
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 03:31:00 -
[371]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Next patch!
Had some internal problems getting it out in 1.1.
Thank ****, finally! Looking forward to not needing 6 mid slots to tackle stuff solo  |
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 06:42:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Tackle still works very well solo, the question once you drop on a target is rather if he is aligned (you never catch those unless they engage) or not, locktime is good enough and no agility change will do anything.
No it doesn't. Even unaligned targets of the same class have a fairly good chance of getting away if you don't have a sensor booster, with frigates the sebo almost doesn't matter.
---
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Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 07:15:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 21/04/2009 15:34:49
That has to be the worst reason to oppose these changes... What about solo pvp? A large chunk of active PVPers want their ability to somewhat solo tackle back, and these changes are needed for that... Also many, including me, want non- agility fitted frigates (except for unplated ceptors) tacklable again, at least with sensor boosted ceptors.
And those who enjoy flying frigates will still do so after these changes.
You think this agility change only effects your solo pvp targets and nothing else? In fact, I predict that solo pvp will suffer the most after this change, unless your solo pvp does not involve going through gates. Gate camping will be the king. Once your uber fast tackling solo pwnmobile meets a somewhat organized gate camp, and you find out that every ship there of your equal size can tackle you, instead of only small ships.
Solo pvp is not only about tackling and ganking, but also the ability to run when things go wrong. You have enjoyed the easy running part for so long and have taken it for granted.
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Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 08:00:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Zero Temperature
Solo pvp is not only about tackling and ganking, but also the ability to run when things go wrong. You have enjoyed the easy running part for so long and have taken it for granted.
Good riddance. Make this game interesting again. If I go solo I *Expect* to have to deal with camps and I expect to lose some ships to said gangs, unless I am in a ceptor. ATM it's just all too fluffy with all these uncatchable frigs and cruisers going about their merry business unhindered. |
1072
Amarr
Fliegerkorps
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 08:15:00 -
[375]
Edited by: 1072 on 22/04/2009 08:16:37
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Tackle still works very well solo,
no it does not work...
And also yeah, if I go solo I expect to be gate camped.. Last night I was in my af, and another af failed to tackle me. I felt sorry for that guy. Convoed him and we talked about how bad ship agilities are.
cant wait for the fix.. |
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 09:11:00 -
[376]
I am glad that you two enjoy getting your ships blown up, but I believe that at least some other solo pvpers and especially your would-be targets wouldn't agree. I am also glad that you helped prove what others have pointed out, that low sec will be depleted of population.....again. As per rule of every society with freedom of speech, the extremists are usually the loudest. Unforturnately, or fortunately, eve is not a democratic community. In the end it is still CCP decides what they want this game to be.
Quote:
And also yeah, if I go solo I expect to be gate camped.. Last night I was in my af, and another af failed to tackle me. I felt sorry for that guy. Convoed him and we talked about how bad ship agilities are.
cant wait for the fix..
Dude, you don't need to wait for the fix. The only thing you needed to do was turning your ship around, or even better, simply leeroy in the first place. |
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 09:46:00 -
[377]
Originally by: Zero Temperature
Edited by: Zero Temperature on 22/04/2009 09:37:16
I am glad that you two enjoy getting your ships blown up, but I believe that at least some other solo pvpers and especially your would-be targets wouldn't agree. I am also glad that you helped prove what others have pointed out, that low sec will be depleted of population.....again. As per rule of every society with freedom of speech, the extremists are usually the loudest. Unforturnately, or fortunately, eve is not a democratic community. In the end it is still CCP decides what they want this game to be.
Fortunately CCP has said that this change will go live in the next patch. Unfortunate to you. So why do you insist on bringing bad arguments to the discussion rather than helping to fine-tune the long overdue change?
From page 12 in case you missed it:
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Next patch!
Had some internal problems getting it out in 1.1.
|
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 11:07:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 10:11:48
Fortunately CCP has said that this change will go live in the next patch, unfortunately for you. So why do you insist on bringing bad arguments to the discussion rather than helping to fine-tune the long overdue change?
So far you haven't brought up anything to counter my arguments except your personal preference yet you are calling them bad?
As I have stated in my previous post, I believe the zero-time tackling should remain an exclusive role for small ships. Taking it away would seriously undermine their values. To let them perform their jobs better in low sec, I proposed to replace the logistic ship bonus with remote sensor boosting bonus, for various reasons I will not repeat here.
Still CCP makes the final decision, but I admit that I will be very dissapointed if CCP still go ahead with the change after I have made my case. I do hope that CCP can give us some good reasons if they actually do it.
|
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 11:18:00 -
[379]
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 11:19:30
Originally by: Zero Temperature
Still CCP makes the final decision, but I admit that I will be very dissapointed if CCP still go ahead with the change after I have made my case. I do hope that CCP can give us some good reasons if they actually do it.
They already did. Read this thread and Nozh's replies. Non- consensual PVP and all that.
Also, your "tackling role" for frigates has existed only after the nearly game breaking QR/ speed nerf patch, and even then not for outlaws in lowsec (which I am not btw). Most posters here and most pilots I know just want their old EVE back and tackling fixed, that's all the counter your arguments need tbh. Having to deal with the new issues that stem from lower base speeds will just make it interesting, and if it indeed will be broken the whines will warrant a new fix/ adjustment soon enough. For now these changes (fixes) will be perfect, in absence of a more elegant solution as they are LONG overdue.
TBH your horrible attempt at "fixing" logistics is *very* telling... |
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 11:46:00 -
[380]
Edited by: Zero Temperature on 22/04/2009 11:51:56
Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 11:19:30
They already did. Read this thread and Nozh's replies. Non- consensual PVP and all that.
Also, your "tackling role" for frigates has existed only after the nearly game breaking QR/ speed nerf patch, and even then not for outlaws in lowsec (which I am not btw). Most posters here and most pilots I know just want their old EVE back and tackling fixed, that's all the counter your arguments need tbh. Having to deal with the new issues that stem from lower base speeds will just make it interesting, and if it indeed will be broken the whines will warrant a new fix/ adjustment soon enough. For now these changes (fixes) will be perfect, in absence of a more elegant solution as they are LONG overdue.
TBH your horrible attempt at "fixing" logistics is *very* telling...
Dude, stop posting already, you are making your side looks really bad.
Hint: training Reading Comprehension to at least level 4 will help a lot.
|
1072
Amarr
Fliegerkorps
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 12:06:00 -
[381]
no I dont like blown up, but I do believe solo pvp should exist.
You on the other hand believe that we need a gang for every kill. So most of eve low - high sec fights are going to be 1 vs many. Whats the fun in that. It will push poeple into blobing a lot more.
if a guy camps me with a frigate, he should be able to catch my frigate. With current mechanics, its not possible. So what do you suggest, he should also bring another interceptor too ?
I would prefer getting tackled by an af and have a nice 1v1 rather then having an imposibble fight in 2v1.
|
Zero Temperature
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 12:29:00 -
[382]
Originally by: 1072
no I dont like blown up, but I do believe solo pvp should exist.
You on the other hand believe that we need a gang for every kill. So most of eve low - high sec fights are going to be 1 vs many. Whats the fun in that. It will push poeple into blobing a lot more.
if a guy camps me with a frigate, he should be able to catch my frigate. With current mechanics, its not possible. So what do you suggest, he should also bring another interceptor too ?
I would prefer getting tackled by an af and have a nice 1v1 rather then having an imposibble fight in 2v1.
Sigh...as to the other poster, please train Reading Comprehension to at least level 4.
However, despite your misunderstanding, I still must thank you for helping me prove my point.
Also from now on I will refrain from posting any further unless there is a dev response to my arguments. |
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 13:13:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 13:14:11
Originally by: Zero Temperature
Also from now on I will refrain from posting any further unless there is a dev response to my arguments.
Thank you. Though I'm pretty certain that the devs need to train Reading Comprehension IV as well, too bad that they will probably get around to it only after Jove Titan V, in 2012... 
---
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:15:00 -
[384]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/04/2009 17:27:20
Originally by: Raimo
No it doesn't. Even unaligned targets of the same class have a fairly good chance of getting away if you don't have a sensor booster, with frigates the sebo almost doesn't matter.
Yes it does.
Your mistake here is you expect the target to have zero reaction time, and this isnt the case.
I'm soloing in my rapier quite often (or doing the initial tackle solo, which is the same thing in regards of tackling), and I manage to point most ships of the same size despite the 5 second recalibration delay, without any sensor booster or locktime rigs.
This includes people paying attention and actively trying to not get caught btw...
Maybe you should train signature analysis to 5 finally, its worth having.
|
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:26:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Maybe you should train signature analysis to 5 finally, its worth having.
No worries, sig analysis V I have, I wouldn't bother talking about this otherwise.
Well, most targets I see at belts, gates or elsewhere are better prepared than yours then... |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:28:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Raimo
No worries, sig analysis V I have, I wouldn't bother talking about this otherwise.
Well, most targets I see at belts, gates or elsewhere are better prepared than yours then...
Guess its the hunter, not the target  |
Raimo
Gallente
Wrath of Fenris
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:42:00 -
[387]
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 17:44:02
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
About the discussion as a whole, maybe it would be best if devs checked the characters posting and ignore all the people that dont have at least 500 solo kills under their belts.
Oh dear. You doing that silly move, of course I had to check your latest solokills then (1st 2-3 pages on evekill), amidst all the gang/ camp kills there were indeed some solo kills mostly in a vaga (pods that just you caught don't count), amidst the retrievers and cargo expanded frigs I saw *one* combat fitted ship as of late, whoop de doo you can catch and kill a T1 fit Cane in a Vaga... The skill! The courage!
Stay on topic please, tbh. I'll try to do it as well.
---
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
OVERLOAD.
Dead Terrorists
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 17:55:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/04/2009 18:05:09
Originally by: Raimo
Oh dear. You doing that silly move, of course I had to check your latest solokills then (1st 2-3 pages on evekill), amidst all the gang/ camp kills there were indeed some solo kills mostly in a vaga
1st 2-3 pages on eve-kill... you realize that are the last 1-2 days, right? When we were in the faction warfare areas we'd fill up 3-4 pages a day Not even complaining about the fact it misses a lot of kills as well as a few losses there.
If you look a bit closer at those kills at the gate you'll find quite a few that are infact solo fights despite more than 1 person being on the killmail, while the killer had to manage his target aswell as sentry fire.
About the hurricane kill you found, yes he had a silly setup, what you dont see on the killmail are his friends in Eagle, Caracal and Blackbird running and leaving him to die against a single vagabond.
And whats wrong about me flying the vagabond, I'm completely maxed out for that ship so I'll fly it regularly ofc...
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.22 21:32:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 22/04/2009 21:34:51
Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 22/04/2009 17:44:02
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
About the discussion as a whole, maybe it would be best if devs checked the characters posting and ignore all the people that dont have at least 500 solo kills under their belts.
Oh dear. You doing that silly move, of course I had to check your latest solokills then (1st 2-3 pages on evekill), amidst all the gang/ camp kills there were indeed some solo kills mostly in a vaga (pods that just you caught don't count), amidst the retrievers and cargo expanded frigs I saw *one* combat fitted ship as of late, whoop de doo you can catch and kill a T1 fit Cane in a Vaga... The skill! The courage!
Stay on topic please, tbh. I'll try to do it as well.
Lol... i'll be surprised if at least 10% of all killmails is posted on eve-kill, i'll be really surprised. As i know it head to head PVP is quite rare, many of solo-kills are just killing newbie that will not escape anyway because they don't have enough experience to escape and this doesn't depend on any agility changes.
-------------------------------------------------
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Carnelian X
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:42:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor
1) When we were in the faction warfare areas we'd fill up 3-4 pages a day Not even complaining about the fact it misses a lot of kills as well as a few losses there.
2)If you look a bit closer at those kills at the gate you'll find quite a few that are infact solo fights despite more than 1 person being on the killmail, while the killer had to manage his target aswell as sentry fire.
3)Anyway back on topic, I still dont see what the point in messing with the current agility values is as it brings a lot more balance issues then it solves, besides the large majority of problems bar frigates maybe is solved by simply removing a bit of lag-points from the locking process, cant tell me its too difficult to get modules activated instantly after lock, or show ships on overview in less than 2 seconds until they decloak in the year 2009.
1) Using faction warfare kills as a reason why agility and solo tackling ability is fine dosent wash. Faction warfare is by design 90% noob pilots who are hitting the wrong buttons and cowering under the desk when you warp in to tackle them.
2)Solo kills with more then one person on the killmail?
3)This is the crux of the matter - You agree it is to difficult to tackle but blame the lag and module delay.
I would agree with this, many times I see the enemy target on my overview on my ALTS account (which is windowed and pushed under and to the side of the mains window so just the overview is there)a good second or so before it shows up on my mains account.
Also many times you will have the picture of the target up and sit twiddling your fingers waiting for prefired modules to activate.
I have gone as far as fitting two tackle mods - having one prefired - and spamming the second on when ive achieved "ship picture" to no avail.
However your theory that tweaking some agility and scan res figures is somehow "harder" then eliminating lag in the game is ludicrous, even if it is 2009.
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