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Sanctus Maleficus
Lambent Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:36:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Mykpilot
Eve's market isn't a pure free market as it is now. In addition I can remember at least one one time that CCP stepped in and shutdown a group of players who had a signficant influence on market prices because they control a large share of T2 BPOs. It apparent that CCP doesn't want monopolies forming.
Keep in mind that, just like in the real world, the only way a monopoly can form is if it is authorized or atleast supported by a government (or, if it uses violence and calls itself a government, etc). CCP was controlling the release of BPO's, and was therefore affecting the market from the "outside".
If price controls of any kind are implemented, I will quit without hesitation.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:30:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 16/04/2009 15:34:46
Quote:
If price controls of any kind are implemented, I will quit without hesitation.
Of any kind? Quit now then. The patch notes just reduced the base cost of the interdictor. In addition CCP controls the primary resources aka minerals/ores which determine the cost of all the player made items in the game (in addition to them setting the amounts require to produce). CCP controls the price of most skill books, all T1 basic modules which determine the pricing for the T1 named modules and to a lesser degree T2 modules.
Make no mistake as much as people like to think this is a free market game driven by the players, CCP has a very big effect on the shape of the market because they are god and god creates all things.
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Gaulian Fidelis
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:36:00 -
[33]
price floors and price ceilings? really? you want to put a socialist economic device in a universe that is an oligarchy in nature?
No. there's no reason that you should ever be able to flood your crappy t1 mods and get a higher price for it and screw up the economy in eve.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 16:00:00 -
[34]
Quote:
No. there's no reason that you should ever be able to flood your crappy t1 mods and get a higher price for it and screw up the economy in eve.
I don't think your sentence makes complete sense, but you don't understand the type of price floor/ceilings that I want implemented. If this forum supported pictures I would draw a diagram.
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Tvaishk Suzuki
Long Night Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 17:14:00 -
[35]
While I'm not really up on the market trading idea as far as I can see your idea could well create more problems than it supposedly solves.
you want a 300% of average price cap... ok you can have that in that case I'll just put a pile of minerals or products right up at the 300% and by a pile I mean several bil worth of the product, and when after dt the average goes up I raise them again. this cap will actually help market manipulation.
But even forgetting that I see a greater floor in you proposal. What about minerals? how are you going to set a "min price" for them? how do you value 1 uni of Trit? and if you start trying to you will be basically be putting a total limit on the market.
So over all I'd say this is a very very bad idea.
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Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor
Appliance Man |
Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 18:02:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 16/04/2009 18:06:58
300% above the market average price was just a number thrown out there. Technically it would be set where the demand curve intersect the y-axis (price). Sure you could manipulate what the game thought was the maximum value that a person would pay for the item, but what would that let you do? That would only let you set prices even higher above demand curve Price max where supply would already be 0. That doesn't gain you anything.
The min value could be solved by taking the average price of the mineral/ore for the market or empire space. The min price would be set to where account profit would be 0 for a supplier given the value that a "no skill" character would generate from reporcessing an item in empire space. Eve acutally already does this if you set create a courier contract, under collateral you can select "base price" which the game would then dervice a value for based on the reprocessing of the item and current market prices of minerals/ore.
For those who would attempt to push the market around using alts and large buy and sell orders the market price can ignore the few large purchase that deviate from the average. And its not like CCP hasn't stepped in and punished people who try to manipulate the market before.
So, to make my idea at little bit more clear:
I would like to see price minimum and price maximum safe guards in the market to make it easier for new players to understand the eve marketplace and reduce the number of unnecessary buy/sell orders.
1) The max price a player could set their sell order would be where the demand curve intersects the price/y-axis.
2) The min price a player could set a buy order would be the value of the minerals that would be created from a "no skill" player reprocessing a given item in empire space. This should be around where account profits for a seller equals 0 which is below where their economic profits would lie. Or a little below where the supply curve intersects the price/y-axis.
These pricing restrictions could be restricted to empire space.
From what I can tell the only people who object to such an idea are:
1) Those who are setting these buy/sell orders to take advantage of consumers.
2) Those who like the thrill of these pitfalls in the market place.
3) Those who think that setting price maximum above where the demand curve intersects the price axis and the minimum price where the suppy curve intersects the price axis would be harmful?
The third one I would really need someone to explain to me in detail because when you look at supply and demand diagram and you put price restrictions above and below the points I mentioned it doesn't affect the market.
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Tvaishk Suzuki
Long Night Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 18:23:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Tvaishk Suzuki on 16/04/2009 18:23:46
"value of the minerals that would be created from a "no skill" player reprocessing a given item in empire space."
You keep on going on about this but what would that value be? you cant put a figure on it as you are not able with this format. I cant see it being possible to set a min price for minerals or are you intending to keep the mineral market like it is and set these rules for the rest of the market, a sure way down the path to disaster.
Its the mineral market that drones most of the rest of the market are you sure you want to play with that and set a set price for everything in doing so.
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Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor
Appliance Man |
Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 18:41:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 16/04/2009 18:46:33
Eve already derives a "base cost" for an item when you create a courier contract and want to set the collateral for the items in the contract. The base cost is based off price of the minerals. This would be the starting point.
I don't have the numbers and formulas for every detail of this suggestion, the idea is what I want to discuss.
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Femaref
Armageddon Day
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Posted - 2009.04.16 19:15:00 -
[39]
ITT: a scammed OP.
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Magnus Castaneus
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Posted - 2009.04.16 19:16:00 -
[40]
There's a reason we are in a purely capitalist universe. The economy does tend to get pretty erratic when a governmental body does not tend to it, but it also tends to fix itself faster when it screws up because it is so erratic.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 20:07:00 -
[41]
No idea what ITT means, but I don't have to be murdered to want to have a law against it. With that said, I do have to look at this absurd prices and shake my head and say, "Things would be easier if the scammers couldn't post in the market".
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Teth Soress
Minmatar
The Hunt Club
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Posted - 2009.04.16 22:46:00 -
[42]
There is a floor and a ceiling. The floor for Tritanium is .01 isk and the ceiling is around 5 isk. CCP doesn't need to put price controls in to do that.
And yes you are right, the only people who really have a problem with this are the people who play the market aspect of the game. Clearly you thought long and hard about this before you posted. 
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 22:59:00 -
[43]
As someone who is likely to take a bath on several hundred million spent on Hounds, I can say that the market is great. Sometimes you take advantage and profit mightily from a price bump but if you are milking a trade run it's likely other people are too, and then the price drops precipitously very quickly.
What I can't stand is people who hate profits so much that they think that dropping the price by 1m every time they put their stuff on the market they are going to sell out faster. No, because I am sitting there waiting to outbid them. I can't stand them, they annoy the crap out of me. They are the equivalent of gate campers in my opinion, they do nothing but ruin a great chance to make a profit.
But do you know what? I wouldn't want anyone to DO anything about them. That's a part of the game, people have different market philosophies. I hate theirs, I want to make a profit, but so what? Just like I think it's stupid when pansy carebears want to nerf pirates, I think it's stupid to want to nerf the market. Market PVP is where a lot of us find the fun in this game.
Besides, as I've illustrated, those market disparities are cleaned up very quickly. If you price something too low someone like me will buy it very quickly, and if the price is too high then five guys like me are competing at each other silently cursing each other for messing up our trade route. 
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.16 23:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 16/04/2009 23:13:40
Were not talking about the same thing.
Please draw a supply and demand curve. Then draw in the price floors and price ceilings at the points I stated. If you spent two weeks in an Economics course you would be able to do this in about 30 seconds. Then comment.
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 23:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mykpilot
Please review a supply and demand curve for perfectly competitive market of goods. The draw in the price floors and price ceilings at the points I stated. If you spent two weeks in an Economics course you would be able to do this in about 30 seconds. Then comment.
Typical stupidity. "If you don't agree with me, you don't understand what I am saying."
We understand what you are saying, we are saying that it's an unnecessary waste of time because the market takes care of itself. But tell you what if you REALLY want it, give me 50b isk and I will without the help of CCP set a floor and ceiling on the price of Tritanium that will set the floor and ceiling for every other item in the game. I can set it at anything you want. You want trit to cost between 2.01 and 2.05 in every region in empire? I can do that, no problem I just need the initial capital.
Besides how hard is it to sort market orders by price? That's how I do it by default. And guess what? I've NEVER been scammed even while drunk. I have never paid more than a few thousand more than the lowest sell order even with double-vision. Because I sort by PRICE. I don't even LOOK at the highest sell orders.
Basically what you are suggesting is that we destroy the game for traders. It takes a real moron to think that traders who are playing the game with Excel open in the background don't understand the concept of a curve between a floor and a ceiling price.
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Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.04.16 23:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Mykpilot
I don't "get" EVE and I'm not able to use my brain
Looking at your recent posts in F&I, I wonder how you can cope with RL. The obvious lack of beeing able to take responsibility for your actions or insufficiencies is disturbing. You don't get what EVE is, nor CCPs vision od a cold, harsh, unforegiving universe.
Go play WoW or something.
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Johli
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.04.17 00:06:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Femaref
ITT: a scammed OP.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 00:30:00 -
[48]
Teras Menac, your first really didn't touch on the goal of what such as policy would accomplish. So you reponse missed the point.
Is stated that primary resources like minerals and ores could be exempt from price restrictions.
I don't want to set prices of items the same range of every market. I don't want trit to fall between 2.01 and 2.05.
If the demand for an item is 0 at X isk then I want th max price to be near that value.
Your making assumptions that free market system is perfect and can't be improved upon.
Your making assumption that I've been a victim of this scam.
Did I say it was hard to sort the list? No, Would it be easier to navigate the market when these listing posted? Yes.
I was merely presenting an idea that could potentially have a postive impact on the game. Your response totally missed what I was talking about. I wanted you draw the diagram so we could have a better discussion about the effects of such a policy because it was apparent you didn't understand the implications of the policy.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 00:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kuranta
I misquote people all the time because it makes me feel good about myself
How do you get by in RL doing that kind of stuff?
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Action Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.17 02:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mykpilot
Teras Menac, your first really didn't touch on the goal of what such as policy would accomplish. So you reponse missed the point.
You're right, I missed the part where you wanted to leave the commodities that determine the price of everything else out of the equation.
Quote:
Is stated that primary resources like minerals and ores could be exempt from price restrictions.
I don't want to set prices of items the same range of every market. I don't want trit to fall between 2.01 and 2.05.
If the demand for an item is 0 at X isk then I want th max price to be near that value.
Your making assumptions that free market system is perfect and can't be improved upon.
Your making assumption that I've been a victim of this scam.
Did I say it was hard to sort the list? No, Would it be easier to navigate the market when these listing posted? Yes.
This is actually an even worse idea than I originally thought. Commodities, Tritanium in particular is the basic unit that determines price in Eve. So you are trying to disconnect the price of goods from the price of commodities which is a horrible idea. Like most market manipulations you have to think of incentive. The incentive to build an item is based off of its profit potential. As it is most T1 ships hover within less than 10% of the cost of production. T2 ships have a much greater cost in terms of time on the part of the player and as such there is an intangible area of cost that is not reflected by the material costs. There is also the cost of recouping POS costs that are used to research BPOs.
So here's a scenario. What if the price of Tritanium spikes by 500% and your price lock is within 300% of the cost of production. Suddenly it costs more to build a Rifter than you can sell one for due to the price cap. Meanwhile, Rifters as it is today sell between 200-400k depending on the demand in the region. So if you cap it at 500k and the price to produce for your average builder is 525k you have created a scenario where it is only profitable to build a rifter if you have a perfect material level and perfect build skills. The rifter business is one of the few industrial businesses that allows noobs the opportunity to participate, you've just created an arbitrary barrier to entry for noobs in the name of fixing a problem that doesn't even exist.
Quote:
I was merely presenting an idea that could potentially have a postive impact on the game. Your response totally missed what I was talking about. I wanted you draw the diagram so we could have a better discussion about the effects of such a policy because it was apparent you didn't understand the implications of the policy.
I do understand the implications. It's a bad idea. You don't know very well how to formulate an argument. Because what you call a 'positive' impact on the game would be a negative impact for me. As with most socialist arguments they don't consider the industrialists/capitalists as actual people. We are not part of 'the people you want to help, because your policy would hurt us.
And no, removing the expensive orders wouldn't make browsing the market any easier, it wouldn't affect ease of browsing at all because browsing currently isn't difficult.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 03:05:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/04/2009 03:11:38
Again, I stated that the price on minerals and ores could be exempt from the price restrictions.
Please understand that the price max and price mins would be self adjusting, I didn't say they were fixed. If the demand and supply curves changed so would the price max and/or price mins.
Before we continue, do you know what a basic supply and demand curve looks like?
Do you know how demand is affected if you set a price above the demand curves y-intercept?
Do you know how supply is affected if you set a price below the supply curves y-intercept?
I only ask because if your familiar with these tools it would help me understand why it wouldn't work if you could put in these terms or allow me to use a different way to express my ideas.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:15:00 -
[52]
You have a solution, but what is the _PROBLEM_ you're trying to solve?
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/04/2009 04:22:33
I would like to see price minimum and price maximum safe guards in the market to make it easier for new players to understand the eve marketplace and reduce the number of unnecessary buy/sell orders. To reiterate, they price restrictions are placed outside the supply and demand curves intersection to the price/y-axis it doesn't affect the supply and demand of the items on the market.
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.17 04:42:00 -
[54]
Okay lets explain this.
1 Player sets very high price for something people use.
2 Buyer gets upset, instead of whining of the fourms he either A. Doesnt buy it, B Does something about it.
3 whalla if he picks a it will never sell, if he picks B then player origianlly selling over price object will have to compete and lower in turn to ensure sales or risk losing entire customer base
If you instill max and minium price people would stop giving a care and would never motivate into messing or balancing the market out overall effect would result everything being sold at max prices or NOT AT ALL.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 6Apr09 |
Aethrwolf
Caldari
Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.04.17 05:15:00 -
[55]
so how would your equation work in areas that havent seen a specific item in MONTHS? Long enough for the regional average price to fall to 0.1 ISK. In places like those 1000% above average may actually be at cost or lower. no buy orders + no sell orders = no supply/demand graph, which would put the max price at roughly ummm.. ZERO???? Before you tote out the "commodities and materials would be excluded", the first thing traders would do under you proposed system is everything they can to jump the price of materials so they could charge as much as possible for everything they trade, and it would happen. It wouldnt be a case of a few plyers manipulating the mineral market, it would be a spontanous MASS manipulation by every trader in the game so they could continue to BE traders and make a profit, so materials would HAVE to be included to give your system any chance of working. Why is it that every idealist in the world refuses to acknowledge human nature?
Besides, unless its an isk sink CCP wouldnt do it.
Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 05:25:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/04/2009 05:26:12
Quote:
If you instill max and minium price people would stop giving a care and would never motivate into messing or balancing the market out overall effect would result everything being sold at max prices or NOT AT ALL
Players are still able to choose any value between the max and min price. Heres is an example lets look at a "cap recharger I", the average price on this item has been between 20000 ISK and 50000 ISK over the last 12 months, as the market is, a player can set any price between 0.01 ISK and infinity. Now, if said the restriction would be 0.02 ISK and 999999999999999999999999999999 ISK. Would anyone object to this? Would my price restrictions prevent the market from operating efficently? If I said the price restriciton would be 10000 and 200000 ISK, would any objet?
The value in Jita from the ores/minerals is about 15500-16000 isk (this character has no industry skills). There is several thousand buy orders above 15000K which makes sense, if someone can take that item and reproces it more efficently or just wants the item for their own use as a module at lower price than the current sell orders. The question I ask is how does it help the market to have buy orders below 15500 ISK? Why would a player make the decision to sell at lower price than the value he can recieve with no opportunity cost. On the flip side if the average price is 40000 ISK today, what good does it do the market to have a sell order posted for 400000000 isk, when the market is perfectly competitive?
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2009.04.17 05:42:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Mykpilot on 17/04/2009 05:44:52
Quote:
so how would your equation work in areas that havent seen a specific item in MONTHS? Long enough for the regional average price to fall to 0.1 ISK. In places like those 1000% above average may actually be at cost or lower. no buy orders + no sell orders = no supply/demand graph, which would put the max price at roughly ummm.. ZERO????
Besides, unless its an isk sink CCP wouldnt do it.
I don't know any empire space regions that would be in a situation where a item would be unavailable for months, but either drawing pricing restrictions from the neighboring region would be a start or just giving it no price restriction at all if its that rare, but the really rare drops aren't availble in the market anyways, you go to contracts.
Quote:
Before you tote out the "commodities and materials would be excluded", the first thing traders would do under you proposed system is everything they can to jump the price of materials so they could charge as much as possible for everything they trade, and it would happen. It wouldnt be a case of a few plyers manipulating the mineral market, it would be a spontanous MASS manipulation by every trader in the game so they could continue to BE traders and make a profit, so materials would HAVE to be included to give your system any chance of working. Why is it that every idealist in the world refuses to acknowledge human nature?
Just to be clear, under my proposed system, which is simply an adjusting maximum and minmum price on items, traders would then do whatever they could to cut supply of minerals by hording them all minerals (assuming this is the way they are forcing prices up unless they convince everyone to go into all out war increase demand on production which in turn requires more minerials). But all traders will do this in a copycat move (because prices have already started to skyrocket from a few traders who took a huge hit in ISK and poured all their ISK into a minerals, which will now be worth less than what they paid for it since they had to start the demand shortage buy buying at low prices) so that traders can continue and make profits... this is why minerals would have to be protect under my system as well. I don't see the connection to that point as well as problems with traders increasing prices by cutting supply. Since if that started happening more players would turn to mining to reap the rewards of these traders buying these minerals at anycost, then the prices would fall and the traders would run out of money and have to dump the minerals back on the market at a loss. I fail to see how this type of behavior would be provoked by an adjusting min/max pricing on items.
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Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.04.17 07:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mykpilot
Originally by: Kuranta
I misquote people all the time because it makes me feel good about myself
How do you get by in RL doing that kind of stuff?
Yeah...sorry for missquoting you.
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Tvaishk Suzuki
Long Night Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.17 08:30:00 -
[59]
Just to add more things to this How do you propose caping T2 items? quite a few of those are already selling on the market for over 100% of the build/ invention price in the lowest sell orders, and lets not forget that there are the odd t2 BOP's out there still and at current selling prices there probably past the 300% build cost limit, and there build cost is different from those people who invent there t2.
And how is 0.0 going to be affected by this? and lowsec for that matter, often a lot of the price hiking your complaining about is in lowsec where supply on those materials is not as high, it is also more dangerous to put them there so would loesec have to have the same restrictions as highsec? and if so how the hell would you implement that given lowsec and highsec share the same region boundrys.
This solution your proposing would just make more problems in the long run not to mention the impracticability in programing and managing the Database.
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Lieutenant, Mixed Metaphor
Appliance Man |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.17 11:37:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Durzel on 17/04/2009 11:39:37
Originally by: Mykpilot
The question I ask is how does it help the market to have buy orders below 15500 ISK? Why would a player make the decision to sell at lower price than the value he can recieve with no opportunity cost. On the flip side if the average price is 40000 ISK today, what good does it do the market to have a sell order posted for 400000000 isk, when the market is perfectly competitive?
The problem is that you are oversimplifying something which is neither simple nor in need of control.
Let's take your first question - "why would a player make the decision to sell at a lower price than the value he can receive with no opportunity cost". There can be numerous reasons why someone might want to post a "lower price than he can get". Disregarding for a moment the fact that "lower price than he can get" is an objective assessment based on the current market, perhaps that player couldn't be bothered to travel to one of the major hubs? Maybe that player just wanted to sell the item quickly at a price he/she knew would put them at the top of the pecking order? There are so many variables involved.
Then we have "what good does it do the market to have a sell order posted for 400000000 isk, when the market is perfectly competitive?". Well, items can (and do) cost differing amounts of ISK depending on where they are located, either due to the rarity of the item in that region, or whatever. Again the market really does take care of itself in this regard.
People who try and game the market by artificially inflating the price of something (beyond your ideological price ceiling) will soon find themselves with one of two things happening (or both): 1) People unwilling to pay the amount being asked and 2) Other traders willing to accept less for the item and posting a lower sell order price. In either event the organic market manages itself, prices do not stay artificially high for long simply because in a competitive market there will always be someone else out there willing to produce whatever it is you're producing for less profit.
As has been remarked to you several times - you've invented a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The market is self-regulating.
(Teras Menac's posts really spell it out far better than I am capable of explaining it, I suggest you re-read them)
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