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Why do the Abaddon and Nightmare have such a weak cap?

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Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 179	Posted - 2012.05.05 09:40:00 - [1] - Quote The cap on the apocalypse is vastly superior to the nightmare and the Abaddon... why? People criticize the tier system, but it is the system in place, and it seems odd we have this abberation of a tier 2 ship having significantly better stats to a tier 3 or pirate faction ship. Yes, I know the Abaddon has no cap bonus, and is "meant" to have more problems with cap, but the -50% (at lvl 5) of the Apoc is enough that the Abaddon could have the same capacitor as the Apoc, and still have significant cap drawbacks. As to the Nightmare... Why why why? Its a billion+ isk ship that is even more cap hungry than the Apoc why does it have a weaker cap than a tier II ship?
Nakkano Internet Space Pimps 0	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:13:00 - [2] - Quote Well lets take a look. Loading up the ships in EFT here's the capacitor numbers Abaddon - 6375 - 1250s Apocalypse - 7500 - 1154s Nightmare - 6950 - 1154s -I don't know why abbadon has the lowest cap. Really should compare all tier battleships of each race and see if there are other oddities. -The abaddon has more structure, armor, and shield than the apoc. Thoughts from a balance perspective: The abaddon is superior to the Apoc in a fleet DPS role with it's extra damage and tanking bonus, and slightly larger grid it can fit 8 tachyons a little easier. So basically, it's still the 'best' obviously, lowest cap or not. As for the nightmare, again who knows. However I think the cap number is less important for the nightmare. Since it's a shield boat, it's usually going to be running off Cap Booster charges, since the drain from an active tank plus the lasers is overwhelming. If you don't use cap booster on a nightmare, then you either have to gimp your tracking & damage projection, or risk a paper thin tank.
Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found 32	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:41:00 - [3] - Quote Originally the Apoc's bonuses were to laser cap usage and a 25% bonus to capacitor capacity. The Abaddon and Nightmare's cap are more or less appropriate to the unbonused cap. When the Apoc gained its range bonus the cap capacity bonus was subsumed into the basic stats of the ship. The Hyperion, which was given a very large capacitor to allow it to microwarp for long periods without excessively boosting its tank, provided an inspiration for the retention.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 179	Posted - 2012.05.05 10:58:00 - [4] - Quote Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions. Buffer tanks are also much better protection against gank than active tank. Its also what I do when I dual box, and have my alt in a rattler take all the aggro.... But it still has trouble just firing its darn lasers. Don't people often fit arty to abaddons? IMO, thats when you know there is a problem... If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS...
illirdor Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 18	Posted - 2012.05.05 11:15:00 - [5] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: Don't people often fit arty to abaddons? IMO, thats when you know there is a problem... uhm alpha ???..... Come to Amamake... The universal answer to everything...
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 31	Posted - 2012.05.05 11:18:00 - [6] - Quote Nakkano wrote: As for the nightmare, again who knows. However I think the cap number is less important for the nightmare. Since it's a shield boat, it's usually going to be running off Cap Booster charges, since the drain from an active tank plus the lasers is overwhelming. If you don't use cap booster on a nightmare, then you either have to gimp your tracking & damage projection, or risk a paper thin tank. Nightmare doesn't have paper thin tank. DPS is part of your tank. Nightmare has very good range and tracking at that range. Cap booster is a good module in active shield tanked ship though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBnCpS6oFw Verity Sovereign wrote: Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions. Nightmare can run its guns and hardeners forever even without cap boosters. So I don't see where you got that from. In incursions you have logis anyways. Shield booster is the module that drains cap in Nightmare.
Lunkwill Khashour Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 78	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:09:00 - [7] - Quote Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 31	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:23:00 - [8] - Quote Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight. They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses.
Heun zero Reliant Tactical Operations 43	Posted - 2012.05.05 12:57:00 - [9] - Quote Nightmare is also half caldari boat, so it has a caldari crapacitor
SpaceSquirrels 278	Posted - 2012.05.05 13:22:00 - [10] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight. They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams. You sure those aren't lul I dunno how to read bonuses fits? Why fit a harby arty when you could do the same to a Cane...that gets bonuses and can armor tank near the same?

ELECTR0FREAK 18	Posted - 2012.05.05 13:37:00 - [11] - Quote I'd like to direct this thread's attention to the upcoming ship balance where Amarr battleships have been specifically cited in the argument that there's often little reason to use one ship over another. The Abbadon's bonuses and stats make it an excellent ship when fitted for tank or gank. It's only real con is it's cap. If it didn't have this con, there really would be almost no reason to fly the other Amarr battleships. As is, with decent cap skills and careful management, it's not far from the other battleships in overall performance (tank or gank) and manages to do both well enough together to make it worth flying over the Apoc and the Arma most of the time. This is exactly why CCP is going to be re-evaluating the ships and trying to push them into more defined, specific roles. Which, I'm sure, will result in many tears... internet spaceships are serious business. Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 462	Posted - 2012.05.05 14:24:00 - [12] - Quote Pretty sure the issue here is not the cap on any given ship (though the Apoc does seem unreasonably strong) but rather that Tachs are just huge cap suckers. This of course is by design, so I'm not sure I really see the problem. Is anyone really hitting cap problems with any other guns on the NM/Abbadon? Because I certainly haven't. Furthermore, it's specifically T2 tachs, not even meta 4 or faction guns. Given the many, many other options out there and the advantages of T2 weapons, I just don't see a problem.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 181	Posted - 2012.05.05 17:19:00 - [13] - Quote My guess is that you are using a rig to decrease cap use. My cap can't handle firing 4x T2 pulse with faction multi (3x heat sinks boosting ROF), 2x tracking computer IIs, and 4 hardeners - well it can last a few minutes, but thats it, a shield booster kills it pretty fast. I've got the +5% cap capacity implant, the -5% cap recharge time implant, Energy systems operation 5, energy management 4, and controlled bursts 4. I don't think taking those skills to lvl 5 is going to result in a huge change (it was next on my list, until I found out about the upcoming BC and destroyer skill changes, and now I'm getting those to lvl 5, and then probably my alts on the same account to lvl 5 if I have time)
Deep Navigation Spack Force 5 0	Posted - 2012.05.05 17:40:00 - [14] - Quote By the time you're supposed to be in an Abbadon you should have maxed out capacitor support skills. Controlled Bursts, Energy Management, Energy Systems Operation and Large Energy Weapon to level 5 make a big difference. Key skills for the Amarr pilot.
FT Diomedes Factio Paucorum 76	Posted - 2012.05.05 18:04:00 - [15] - Quote There is no issue with cap on the Nightmare. You can either set it up to permarun a deadspace large shield booster (with plenty of space left over for damage mods and tracking), or you can use a cap booster. Either way, it's just fine - even with T2 Tachs.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 423	Posted - 2012.05.05 19:08:00 - [16] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams. lmao
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 32	Posted - 2012.05.05 19:44:00 - [17] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Jorma Morkkis wrote: They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams. lmao 650s with Quake: 2233 at optimal Optimal: 6,04 km 3x Gyro II, 1x projectile collision Heavy Pulses with Conflag: 1994 at optimal Optimal 7,5 km 3x HS II, 1x energy collision Heavy Beams with Gleam: 1812 at optimal Optimal 7,5 km 3x HS II, 1x energy collision Pulses/beams do hilarious amount of dps compared to 650s though.
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 101	Posted - 2012.05.06 13:56:00 - [18] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: The cap on the apocalypse is vastly superior to the nightmare and the Abaddon... why? Abaddon neither Nightmare enjoy a bonus to energy turret capacitor use. That is why the cap feels weak, for the most part. They say it's by design and working as intended. Your call is very important to us etc. Slap an Apoc's capacitor on all laser BS or go home, please.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 423	Posted - 2012.05.06 14:21:00 - [19] - Quote Sphit Ker wrote: Abaddon neither Nightmare enjoy a bonus to energy turret capacitor use. That is why the cap feels weak, for the most part. Nightmare's role bonus essentially acts the same as the Apoc's cap use bonus. Four turrets worth of cap for eight turrets* worth of damage. *Actually more, because of the Caldari BS bonus being more damage.
Dato Koppla Perkone Caldari State 19	Posted - 2012.05.06 14:25:00 - [20] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Nightmare can run its guns and hardeners forever even without cap boosters. So I don't see where you got that from. Completely untrue, my mission Nightmare with T2 Tachyons can't run it's guns/hardeners/tcs stable and that is WITH perfect skills AND 1 T2 Discharge Elutriation and 2 T1 Semiconductor Memory Cells. Also, Apoc has better cap before bonuses for those guy talking about the cap bonus, it has better cap BEFORE bonuses.

James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 204	Posted - 2012.05.06 20:24:00 - [21] - Quote Maybe you should stop trying to be cap stable. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 182	Posted - 2012.05.06 20:29:00 - [22] - Quote I'm not, but the larger the cap reserve, the better, so why does the Apoc have 7,500 base cap, while the NM and abaddon have less than 7,000?
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 204	Posted - 2012.05.06 20:34:00 - [23] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: I'm not, but the larger the cap reserve, the better, so why does the Apoc have 7,500 base cap, while the NM and abaddon have less than 7,000? Because the Apocalypse is intended for long range extended seiges. The Nightmare and Abaddon are both intended to be shorter range higher DPS where your guns don't have to run continuously for a longer period of time. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 182	Posted - 2012.05.06 20:42:00 - [24] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Mfume Apocal wrote: Jorma Morkkis wrote: They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams. lmao 650s with Quake: 2233 at optimal Optimal: 6,04 km 3x Gyro II, 1x projectile collision Heavy Pulses with Conflag: 1994 at optimal Optimal 7,5 km 3x HS II, 1x energy collision Heavy Beams with Gleam: 1812 at optimal Optimal 7,5 km 3x HS II, 1x energy collision Pulses/beams do hilarious amount of dps compared to 650s though. Lets just assume the high damage T1 ammo (faction vs non faction is the same proportionally) Multfreq medium base damage: 14+10 (24) Phased Plasma M base damage: 4+20 (24) So we can ignore the ammo, they both do 24 base damage Harby at lvl 5, gets a 1.25x damage bonus to lasers Heavy beam laser: 3.6x damage multiplier 1.25 ship bonus = 4.5 damage multiplier 650mm does beat that (IMO, the high alpha of artillery was over the top, the entire projectile buff was over the top) Abaddons and Tachyons vs arty: Again, the ammo base damage cancels out Tachyons: 5.4 1.25 = 6.75 - beats 1200mm arty for alpha, but not 1400mm. But the more ships you have, the less alpha matters, then its DPS that matters. If your ships have half the alpha, you need 2x as many to take down a target in one volley, once you have an excess, it becomes a matter of the rate at which a fleet can fire those intsapopping volleys
Sphit Ker Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 101	Posted - 2012.05.07 02:20:00 - [25] - Quote It's erroneous to compare 650s with heavy beams. A more appropriate comparison would be 650s with focused beams or 720s with heavy beams. ******* I just spent 6 hours on sisi running deep null anomalies in a Nightmare. I've managed to clear a blood haven only after I downgraded to Standard L crystals. I tried many things. X-L booster with safeguard rigs, large booster, full CCC rack, semiconductors everywhere, mix of this and that. I most certainly run out of cap and cap charges sooner or later. Usually much sooner than later. I felt I could never rely on this boat to chain one anom after another unless I dump so much ISKies I might as well undock a thanny. I figured I must have been doing something terribly wrong but then I tried the same with a Machariel. 550m/s perma-running a large booster and 3 invulns all day like a total baller and never afraid of anything. Not even a single Tech 2 rigs either, unlike nightmare which was quite decked out. Remind me again why it's OK for a Nightmare to have an insufficient capacitor? Because it's "designed" for it?
Jack Miton Bite Me inc Exhale. 235	Posted - 2012.05.07 03:10:00 - [26] - Quote I havent read all the other comments but to answer your question, it's probably because you don't know how to fit them.
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 161	Posted - 2012.05.07 05:18:00 - [27] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: I'm not, but the larger the cap reserve, the better, so why does the Apoc have 7,500 base cap, while the NM and abaddon have less than 7,000? Because the apoc used to get a bonus to cap amount, meaning it had 6000 base cap, less than the abaddon or the nightmare. When CCP was buffing amarr, they changed the bonus from 5%cap/level to the range bonus it gets now, and decided to move the cap bonus into its base cap, rather than simply leaving it (so it effectively has 3 bonuses, when compared to the old apoc) Basically you only THINK you're complaining about the NM/abaddon having low cap, when in reality it's the oddly HIGH cap of the APOC that's out of whack. What's more is that comparing such an arbitrary stat and making the claim "it seems odd we have this abberation of a tier 2 ship having significantly better stats to a tier 3 or pirate faction ship." It's one stat, and one that's far less important than ehp/dps/any one of another hundred stats on ships that pretty much all require cap injectors anyway. Lasers are SUPPOSED to be cap hungry, you got one ship whose specific set of bonuses/buffs makes it the exception and you act like the entire race needs a buff. You're like the guy in the other thread who thinks torps need their own version of tracking enhancers.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 182	Posted - 2012.05.07 07:08:00 - [28] - Quote Well, as in page one, I'll repeat this comment: "If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS..." I'd be fine with nerfing the Apoc back to its old base cap before bonuses, but I'd rather bring the other BS's up. At least the NM - its a pirate BS for ****s sake. Its got more armor and shields, why not more cap? Even with an improved base capacitor, the Abaddon still won't be anywhere close to cap stable - its lack of a cap usage bonus means its lasers will use twice the cap of the Apoc/NM. As the NM is not cap stable now (despite having a better cap than the Abaddon, even if its not as good as the Apoc), the Abaddon certainly won't be
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 425	Posted - 2012.05.07 07:54:00 - [29] - Quote The nightmare ***** all over the regular Amarr BS so hard I can't (with a straight face) argue for buffing it.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 117	Posted - 2012.05.07 08:05:00 - [30] - Quote Verity Sovereign wrote: Well, as in page one, I'll repeat this comment: "If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS..." I'd be fine with nerfing the Apoc back to its old base cap before bonuses, but I'd rather bring the other BS's up. Because then geddon/baddon is OP compared to other races BS, and Apoc is once again underpowered compared to other amarr BS because it no longer has it's slim capacitor advantage There should be a rather awesome pic here



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