Don't people often fit arty to abaddons?
IMO, thats when you know there is a problem...

As for the nightmare, again who knows. However I think the cap number is less important for the nightmare.
Since it's a shield boat, it's usually going to be running off Cap Booster charges, since the drain from an active tank plus the lasers is overwhelming. If you don't use cap booster on a nightmare, then you either have to gimp your tracking & damage projection, or risk a paper thin tank.

Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions.

Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.

They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.

They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.

lmao

The cap on the apocalypse is vastly superior to the nightmare and the Abaddon... why?

Abaddon neither Nightmare enjoy a bonus to energy turret capacitor use. That is why the cap feels weak, for the most part.

Nightmare can run its guns and hardeners forever even without cap boosters. So I don't see where you got that from.

I'm not, but the larger the cap reserve, the better, so why does the Apoc have 7,500 base cap, while the NM and abaddon have less than 7,000?

650s with Quake: 2233 at optimal
Optimal: 6,04 km
3x Gyro II, 1x projectile collision

Heavy Pulses with Conflag: 1994 at optimal
Optimal 7,5 km
3x HS II, 1x energy collision

Heavy Beams with Gleam: 1812 at optimal
Optimal 7,5 km
3x HS II, 1x energy collision

Pulses/beams do hilarious amount of dps compared to 650s though.

I'm not, but the larger the cap reserve, the better, so why does the Apoc have 7,500 base cap, while the NM and abaddon have less than 7,000?

Well, as in page one, I'll repeat this comment:
"If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS..."

I'd be fine with nerfing the Apoc back to its old base cap before bonuses, but I'd rather bring the other BS's up.

The nightmare ***** all over the regular Amarr BS so hard I can't (with a straight face) argue for buffing it.

the Machariel being the only ship that provides any real competition

You're comparing the best feature of one with the worst feature of another. You might as well compare the cargo capacity of a Sports Car to an SUV, and conclude that the SUV is better; or compare the work-related stress of a cashier to the stress of a CEO, and conclude that being a cashier is better.

If each battleship has a full rack of Maga Pulse Lasers and a large armor repairer, an Apocalypse runs out of cap in 4:13 and a Nightmare runs out of cap in 3:45. So it isn't like it's THAT much of a difference. Also, the nightmare has one more low/mid-slot, so put a cap mod in there, and its cap is better than the Apocalypse's.

Why are you putting large armor reps on a Nightmare? That just... what?

They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.

<-- Wants to see Mach doing 1000+ dps @ 50 km.

Problem is not the ships. It's the cap use of lasers.

The problem isn't the cap use of lasers.

The problem is CCP REFUSES to acknowledge that lasers and Hybrids use cap when designing ships.



There has been an all be declared design pattern of "PvP = Minmtar, Caldari = PvE" for half a decade.

Don't fight it, give up, the sandbox is rigged.

That's really funny, because I use all four races for both PvE and PvP. But you can keep limiting yourself. Stop playing EFT-online and start actually using the ships and you'll find that it's pretty easy to manage cap with the right setup.

1) I'm not arguing its not good, I'm arguing that it shouldn't have a weaker cap than a tier II BS, and that either the tier 2 BS should have its cap nerfed a bit, or the NM should have its cap buffed.
I'd prefer buffed, because as another poster pointed out, the NM does not stack up favorably to the Mach, but then again, does any faction BS?

2) What roles do you think its good for, as it has already been poined out, the Mach is just as good as the NM for the NM's roles, and much better in others, the Mach does a whole bunch of roles. This is a pirate BS, it should be a cut above the rest, not restricted to roles reserved for basic T1 ships.

simple, mach warps out, then warps back in at 0, 1000+ dps @ 50 - 50 km

I've also said I'd be open to nerfing the cap on the Apoc.

1 - you're arguing that the nightmare is not good enough? You're so right, nobody ever uses them....


2 - even if it was only good for some limited roles (hint, it isn't), so what? Maybe we should only have one type of ship that does everything?

3 - you are claiming a ship needs to be cap stable to be worthwhile



Conclusion - get out

I'd like to direct this thread's attention to the upcoming ship balance where Amarr battleships have been specifically cited in the argument that there's often little reason to use one ship over another.

The Abbadon's bonuses and stats make it an excellent ship when fitted for tank or gank. It's only real con is it's cap. If it didn't have this con, there really would be almost no reason to fly the other Amarr battleships.

As is, with decent cap skills and careful management, it's not far from the other battleships in overall performance (tank or gank) and manages to do both well enough together to make it worth flying over the Apoc and the Arma most of the time. This is exactly why CCP is going to be re-evaluating the ships and trying to push them into more defined, specific roles.

Which, I'm sure, will result in many tears... internet spaceships are serious business.

Why don't you stop playing Smug online and actually look at the ships.

Why is it that Marauders all have the same base cap, even though some of the ships clearly require more cap to use.

- Navy Apoc dunno

Well... I don't cap boost my nightmare, I buffer tank it - its what you'd do if you were insane/rich enough to use it in fleet combat, and its what you do in incursions.
Buffer tanks are also much better protection against gank than active tank.
Its also what I do when I dual box, and have my alt in a rattler take all the aggro....
But it still has trouble just firing its darn lasers.

Don't people often fit arty to abaddons?
IMO, thats when you know there is a problem...


If your history of the Apoc bonuses is right, its essentially a 3 bonus ship... like a Pirate BS...

Most new players don't have the two billion isk required to get the ship and modules to fly it. You don't need fully maxed skills, the weapons at level 5 and everything else at 4 is acceptable.