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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.18 18:51:00 -
[1]
My previous topic was more on minmatar capitals in general (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=779753) and while I would like to see the nidhoggur shield tanked, the Naglfar on it's own is a more pressing issue. When Bane brought the previous topic to the CSM he lumped it in with a capital change in general and I really don't think the Naglfar got enough attention, hence this thread.
Why does the Naglfar suck?
Training time
Not only do you have to train up two different capital weapon systems, but if you are a Minmatar carrier pilot you have to train up a different set of tanking skills in order to shield tank it. This leaves most Nidhoggur pilots looking at the dread training time and figuring out the training for a revelation is about the same amount of time, but with the added bonus of the revelation being a great dread and getting good t2 sniper bses out of it. On top of this, in order to really maximize the damage of the Naglfar you need to train up two different sets of weapon support skills while any other dread pilot would only need to train 1.
This would all be okay, if the Naglfar wasn't a sub par dread after all that training.
Fitting
Here's links on "regular" fittings for Dreads. I'm using all skills V to really emphasize how much the Naglfar sucks even if you spend the insane amount of time to train everything to V. Also all fits will include faction EANM's (as they are rather cheap) and faction damage mods.
The fits in general are a bit more "gank" fit rather than tank fit, apart from the armor tanking Naglfar which I usually see fit with 1 gyro. Unfortunately this fit kills the only advantage the armor tanking nag has over the other armor tanking dreads, namely cap stability and eHP.
Now what do you notice about the naglfar in comparison to all 3 other dreads? All 3 other dreads do about 500 more dps than a shield tanked naglfar (which has more damage mods) and about 1700 more dps than the armor tanked naglfar. If you turn off the guns on the moros and the rev, the armor tanking naglfar has about 100k more eHP than them both but they both tank around the same. Personally, for 1700 dps more I'd take the hit in tank. The shield tanking naglfar has about the same eHP as the moros and revelation, but the tank is much less cap stable (even if it's more of a burst tank). Even in cap fights when a shield tank naglfar is primary you can often dump all your cap before dying (I've done this). The phoenix is considerably better than both setups of the naglfar. It does more dps, more alpha, more tankable dps, and more eHP than both setups. You do have to deal with missiles and how much they suck in PvP, but so does the naglfar.
So we can sum up the dreads like this:
- The rev has the advantage of no ammo which means it doesn't have to reload, it also has a decent tank and good dps
- The Moros has the same dps / tank as the Rev and a fun little drone bonus for undock games and fighting sub-caps
- The Phoenix has a crazy tank, crazy eHP, and crazy alpha which makes it a pretty fun ship to fly if you can get over lol missiles
- The Naglfar has ... the ability to tank differently and shoot missiles OR guns? I really don't know. What does the Naglfar have that you would ever want to fly it? Nothing. It even requires you to sink more time into training.
Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.18 19:00:00 -
[2]
reserved
Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.18 19:01:00 -
[3]
reserved
Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.04.18 20:01:00 -
[4]
How many topics do we need on this?
The issue was already raised too.
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Uedel
Lyonesse.
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 22:16:00 -
[5]
supported
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Hex Keng
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.18 22:26:00 -
[6]
Again... supported. I was just thinking these days that it would never be worth the time to skill for Nag... pls fix. |
Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.18 23:54:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: LaVista Vista
How many topics do we need on this?
The issue was already raised too.
You could of at least read the first two sentences.
Please resist the urge to flame - Mitnal
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.04.19 01:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
How many topics do we need on this?
The issue was already raised too.
As many as needed until it gets ****ing fixed. You think the changes in the OP (that you didn't read, gj on that) will take a long time to balance and put onto sisi/tq?
The naglfar has been waiting years for a fix.
Supporting this great thread.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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mucklavee
ASSASSIN SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.04.19 02:20:00 -
[9]
supportin dis here topic also
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.04.19 04:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: LaVista Vista
How many topics do we need on this?
As many as needed until it gets ****ing fixed.
While I think the rest of Vaal's post is unnecessarily harsh, this part I agree with fully. The Nag is hilariously bad, and needs a fix. It's obviously, and by a large margin, the worst capital ship in the game. Unless this is part of a plan for race-wide balance(e.g., Minmatar intentionally get the best cruisers and the worst capitals), and I have no reason to believe it is, it needs fixing. Not a big fan of balance issues, but this one's pretty glaring.
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Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting! |
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S8nt
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.19 17:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: S8nt on 19/04/2009 17:32:46
Forsure! Best looking dread and can't use it 
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xttz
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:04:00 -
[12]
Never flown a nag, never will (unless this gets implemented)
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maya ibuki2
THORN Syndicate
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:54:00 -
[13]
im supporting the living daylights outta this.
i dislike that the naglfar is little more than a very large trimark for the next dread down the target callers list.
for the love of god fix the naggie
maya ibuki2-currently thorn alliance pvper, proud member of the 54th knights templar and genral shooty type |
Urhgo Khanab
Rogen's Heroes
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.04.20 05:43:00 -
[14]
Supported
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Octavio Santillian
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2009.04.20 07:39:00 -
[15]
You know CCP says that the Sebiestors are some of the greatest engineers in New Eden, but you wouldn't know if from the Nag.
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Melakith Entar
BoB Enterprises
Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.04.20 09:05:00 -
[16]
Seeing as I plan on oneday flying one of these babys then yes, fix the damn thing already
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Noodly Appendage
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Posted - 2009.04.20 09:58:00 -
[17]
Not supported..shield boost amount on a dread? Tha't won't help it a single bit to set it a apart..
CCP should make it the 'gank' dread of the four..reduce base HP by 25% or so, and instead give it 7.5%/lvl ROF bonus accompanied with a general fix of capital projectiles. (as it stands now unbonused pulses are better than bonused capital proejctiles!!) Remove one low for a mid ad give it some extra cpu.
In short..
- lower hp, more dps
- ability to fit mroe damage mods along with shield tank
That'll really make it 'different' from the other three.
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Vegetate
tr0pa de elite
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.04.20 10:47:00 -
[18]
Good argumentation. Support.
____________________
Once known as Fedain
[red]Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 by |
Midjutetur
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.20 13:23:00 -
[19]
needs balancing...
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc.
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.04.20 13:50:00 -
[20]
The most overlooked and ignored active issue by CCP.
The issue to remain the longest in the Assembly Hall section and keep getting constant support by players.
Supported
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Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.20 14:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Noodly Appendage
Not supported..shield boost amount on a dread? Tha't won't help it a single bit to set it a apart..
CCP should make it the 'gank' dread of the four..reduce base HP by 25% or so, and instead give it 7.5%/lvl ROF bonus accompanied with a general fix of capital projectiles. (as it stands now unbonused pulses are better than bonused capital proejctiles!!) Remove one low for a mid ad give it some extra cpu.
In short..
- lower hp, more dps
- ability to fit mroe damage mods along with shield tank
That'll really make it 'different' from the other three.
It already has low eHP, giving it a bonus to shield boosting would only make the incredibly weak and ~1 minute cap out time on it a strong enough to not die horribly to a pos (which happens if you shield tank and it's a well setup, gunned tower).
Support Fixing the Naglfar!
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hast Ulga
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
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Posted - 2009.04.20 16:32:00 -
[22]
Yes Please
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Min Qa
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Posted - 2009.04.20 22:24:00 -
[23]
Supported!
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.04.21 01:48:00 -
[24]
I will support every topic on this issue until it is flucking FIXED!!!
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Cpt Underpants
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.04.21 02:48:00 -
[25]
Make the nag worth the time to train.
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Relatyve Mynd
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Posted - 2009.04.21 07:18:00 -
[26]
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Piccalo
SUNDERING
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.04.21 08:51:00 -
[27]
signed 
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Slip Kid
Titan Industries Technology Team
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.04.21 15:54:00 -
[28]
Signed.
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Jack Nuddels
Congregatio
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.21 17:30:00 -
[29]
supported
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Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.04.21 18:53:00 -
[30]
3 years and counting!
Fix it!
_______________
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info.
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