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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.19 15:39:00 -
[1]
i have read a few threads on pirates in empire, and the fact they have an unfair advantage.. The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer, however can flippers have found a way around this... it has even got to the point mining in empire is almost impossible these days as a gang of can flippers allways show up, with the intent of killing your hulk and your mining buddies. Even intruding on missions is something that has not happen'd to me yet but i can see that spreading accross the regions aswell..
I see this as a game exploit personally.. however ccp could counter this with a "distress call" button that say someone flips your can, and aggress's you if you can defend yourself fine, tho if u can't u can request concord intervention, depending on the system sec status will depend on the length of time concord show up.. imo it should help balance the issue...
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Urlacher
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Posted - 2009.04.19 15:55:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer,
No its not, it is ment to punish a player after commiting a criminal act, not protect a player from such action.
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:03:00 -
[3]
I lost you at the second word of the title.... 
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:04:00 -
[4]
Try learning to look after yourself and not expecting concord to do the work for you.
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:10:00 -
[5]
and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Try learning to look after yourself and not expecting concord to do the work for you.
actually, it is not a problem for me personally, im a 2003 char. but it is for the new to eve players in my corp, that enjoy mining. it has got to the point some have left eve altogether because of this, they don't have the sp's to defend themselves.. atleast my solution makes it fair for both sides, if it took time for concord to show up, gives the pirate time to escape.. this is why this topic is in the features and ideas section...
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cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 -
[7]
Because stealing is not criminal act (police don't care) but they let you fight back a flipper.
Also jettison cans were NOT ment for mining, for that you got secure cans + hauler.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?
No, it is not. Concord reacts to life-threatening crime, but you have the option to react to can-flipping etc.
As to can-flipping, what on earth makes you think that a can in space should be made secure by anyone other than yourself? What right do you have for Concord protection of stuff you throw out in a jetcan? Take some responsibility!
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
and the difference is??, the threat of Concord is a deterance from committing a criminal act in the first place, so in essence players are protected? if u open fire on an innocent player in empire, concord shows up and blasts u out of the sky. but if the pirate flips your can then opens fire the this is allowed? this is wrong? infact this is an exploit is it not?
No, it is not. Concord reacts to life-threatening crime, but you have the option to react to can-flipping etc.
As to can-flipping, what on earth makes you think that a can in space should be made secure by anyone other than yourself? What right do you have for Concord protection of stuff you throw out in a jetcan? Take some responsibility!
you have not read the post correctly.. it is not stealing that is the issue, stealing is fine.. but the problem is that a griefer flips your can with only interest of pvp confrontation. and thats the issue, if the pirate tuns up in a hac with the only purpose of destroying your mining ship the this is the issue that needs addressing.. if it was in lowsec or 0.0 then fine, but Not in empire..
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.19 16:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 19/04/2009 17:00:47
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
you have not read the post correctly.. it is not stealing that is the issue, stealing is fine.. but the problem is that a griefer flips your can with only interest of pvp confrontation. and thats the issue, if the pirate tuns up in a hac with the only purpose of destroying your mining ship the this is the issue that needs addressing.. if it was in lowsec or 0.0 then fine, but Not in empire..
If I understand the mechanic correctly you have to shoot the flipper in order for him to be able to shoot you, or you need to steal what has become "his" stuff. You can legally shoot him if he flips your can (i.e. without Concord involvement). If that is the case, the solution is very simple: don't shoot the can flipper, and leave the stuff to him until you can get backup.
Alternatively you can pre-empt this by using GSCs.
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Johli
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.04.19 17:08:00 -
[11]
I too, would like a private police force.
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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:30:00 -
[12]
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
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cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".
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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".
Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Neo Omni
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
In case you did not realize, pirates are one of the major and most respected occupations in Eve. Eve is not supposed to be Hello Kitty Online. Eve is 100% PVP game. If you can't handle it, go back to WOW or subscribe to the Hello Kitty Online.
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cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".
Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?
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Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Or people who actualy know something about the game, at least enought to be able to read "Jettison can" and understand that it doesnt say "Put your ore here".
Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?
so for you, jettison = throw out trash
for a miner, jettison = hauler, pick up and deliver
neither one is wrong really
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cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: cyno here
Originally by: Neo Omni
Then WTF are cans for if you cant put your crap in them?
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?
so for you, jettison = throw out trash
for a miner, jettison = hauler, pick up and deliver
neither one is wrong really
Webster is on my side
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jettison
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Kumq uat
Gallente
Guiding Hand Social Club
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.19 18:59:00 -
[19]
Hate to burst your bubble my carebear friend but the developers of Eve have stated previously that they never intended for jettison cans to be mined into. This is why there are Secure containers with passwords and stuff. Jet cans come with less hassles and hold more space but they are insecure. It used to be someone with a hauler could drop by your mining op and grab the can and you couldn't do a thing about it. CCP changed it so you could then shoot them and recover your ore and the pirates adapted.
Of course now you can mine directly into an Orca which is like a monstrous secure container that gives mining bonuses. They really don't even cost all that much. If you want to mine solo then you risk the consequences of said actions by putting your stuff into an unsecured container. Stop your whining and adapt like pirates have had to.
www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.19 19:13:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
It is not an exploit. It does not give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft is not the jursidition of concord, it is the juristiction of protection of one's own proerty.
I am not a pirate.
As a positive comment, why should a miner be able to completely mine out a belt in absolute safety, leaving the ore in unsecured cans, then go and get his hauler to take them back to the station? Where's the risk there?
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Tuscanspeed
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Posted - 2009.04.19 19:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: cyno here
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?
If that's all they were meant for, I don't suppose you'd need to be able to access that can again. Why isn't it immediately destroyed?
It would be logical to conclude since they persist in space for so long, and you have easy access to and from the container that it was meant for storage for short periods. Regardless of what that storage is.
Easy fix? If PlayerA steals from PlayerB. PlayerB has aggression against PlayerA. So therefore, if PlayerA jettisons ANYTHING, it's fair game to PlayerB without giving aggression rights while in highsec areas.
Therefore allowing you to take back whatever he decides to drop out, risk free. If he decides to do so. If he doesn't. You can ignore him, or turn his ship into a wreck, your choice. Same as it is now.
Did I miss an unintended consequence other than simply removing the canflip trick?
I guess cans can be default named after the ship/pilot/corp that dropped it, thus eliminating confusion. Won't change the trick, but at least you'd have to be even more of a dumbass than you do now to fall for it.
Never have been. Never will be.
An Alt. |
cyno here
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.19 19:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tuscanspeed
Originally by: cyno here
I will take wildguess what jettison can may be for... maybe throwing stuff you no longer need from your ship while in space ?
If that's all they were meant for, I don't suppose you'd need to be able to access that can again. Why isn't it immediately destroyed?
It would be logical to conclude since they persist in space for so long
For the same reson why you can't just "destroy" stuff instead jettisoning it - potentinal loot denial. And i wouldnt call 1hour "so long".
Also you can reaccess and throw more crap in them to prevent someone spawning 34875834853 jetcans (you can only throw out one every 3 minutes or so), but if you've forgot to jettison something, you can simply transfer it to the can.
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Dr Prometheus
Caldari
Gears of Construction
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Posted - 2009.04.19 20:04:00 -
[23]
Easy solution; dont shoot the flipper, and use the holy grail of cans: The Orca. 
"Concord: To punish and not protect."
- Dude where is my Charon? - |
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.04.19 20:22:00 -
[24]
Theres a problem? I dont see a problem.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 19Apr09 |
Walton Kildare
Caldari
NSO Enterprises
Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.04.19 20:44:00 -
[25]
I wonder if people haven't misunderstood our good "carebear" friend here. I don't think s/he has a problem with pirates and thievery in general. I believe her problem is with griefers who abuse the mechanic to simply gain the ability to destroy a player's ship, without consideration for what the ship may have or may be doing.
Let's remember that "griefer" and "pirate" are not synonymous. A pirate does what he does for money, for profit. A griefer does what he does simply to make someone's experience miserable. The pirate's out to make money at your expense, and the griefer is simply out to ruin your day.
So here's my understanding of the gripe, and my opinion of it. Person A is mining, Person B comes up and steals from them (aggression flagging to A). Person A fires back (aggression flagging to person B). Battle ensues. There are four basic outcomes: Person A is destroyed, Person A runs, Person B is destroyed, or Person B escapes (runs).
- Person B can-flips person A, and destroys them in the ensuing battle (or Person A retreats), then the pirate act was a success.
- Person B can-flips person A, then leaves with their stuff, the pirate act was a success.
- Person B can-flips person A, and is destroyed or has to retreat in the process, obviously the act of piracy was a failure.
Here's another outcome I've seen...
- Person B can-flips Person A, and is destroyed (or retreats) in response. Person B then goes back and grabs a bigger ship, comes back and destroys Person A in response. This is the scenario I have a problem with. If I try and steal from someone on the street, and get beat back because they have a steel pipe, I don't get to leave and go grab an iron baseball bat and beat them back up in response. Maybe if I wanted my theft attempt to be a success, I should have taken the baseball bat to begin with? Make sense?
The solution: If you break off combat with someone, that is, if you leave the area (go to warp), then combat ends. No going back to get a bigger ship. If you want to kill someone, you should bring the hardware to do it then and there. And you'll have no right to be disappointed if your prey is too smart to attack a more powerful ship. If you get killed because you underestimated your prey, too bad.
Justin
º
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.19 21:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Neo Omni
It is an exploit and it does give pirates an unfair advantage. Theft should be dealt with by concord. They are the police force.
As for all the negative comments....ignore them, they are the pirates themselves.
Exactly. Anyone who suggests that you may be mistaken on how EvE actually works, is obviously a pirate.
This reason, of course, makes you no better than the individuals who accuse any hisec occupant of being a carebear. I know that for some, it's okay to be racist if you can prove others were racist first, but for the rest of us, your just as bad as the people who you hate.
All that said, take note that anything you jet from your cargo hold, no longer belongs to you. This is a VERY important rule, and probably the center of your misunderstanding. The rules for aggression further muck this up, but there it is.
Secondly, CONCORD punishes, not protects. This is a find distinction, which fully explains the difference between CONCORD, and real life police. They are not the same. CONCORD will not swoop in to protect your goods, nor will they come to your aid. They don't rep you, they don't boost your shields, they don't give you cap. They come for one purpose: to destroy the aggressor. CONCORD is not there to make sure you don't die, get stolen from, or suffer. They are there to make sure the aggressor is punished.
In the end, you are still responsible for protecting YOURSELF.
Suggestions?
- Hire a new player with an industrial to ferry your minerals back to station.
- Use a secure can, which you can thus lock.
- Use an industrial, or a ship with a larger cargo hold. Nobody said that you should be able to mine without making multiple trips.
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Troll Score-o-Meter
--------Failure----------|||-----------Succes-------
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.19 21:03:00 -
[27]
By the way, the one true solution, I feel, is to remove all aggression rights from jet cans. If you jettison it, it's free game. Whether someone else takes it from you and puts it in their own jet can? No difference, still fair game.
This wouldn't stop people from taking your stuff (theft, only without the legalities), but would stop them from using it as a gank tactic.
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Troll Score-o-Meter
--------Failure----------|||-----------Succes-------
10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1--0--1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.20 00:41:00 -
[28]
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)
by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.04.20 00:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)
by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(
The flippers buddies can NOT, attack you if all you do is shoot the player who stole from your can. The only time his friends can shoot is if you steal back. And even then, they can ONLY attack the individual ship that stole back, they can NOT attack the rest of your little mining op.
The real problem here is miners not knowing the game mechanics, and not knowing how to deal with such a situation within them.
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.20 01:17:00 -
[30]
yes some of that is true, miner's do not 100% understand the game mechanics, which should be made clearer. however the point i was making is escalation when an incident with a flipper arrises, and all parties get involved with defending a mining op lets say, then eventually they all become targets.. and yes usually when the first guy has flipped he goes and gets a bigger ship, comes back and joins his corp buddies in killing the hulk fleet, the only way out of this is writing off the ore stolen. and not reacting to the initial theft, but usually the guy mining gets annoyed and sets drones on the flipper as a principle to the theft..
whichever way i think ccp need to rethink some of the basic mining concepts as it is the only part of the game to remain unchanged since genesis release, all asteroid belts should be hidden, should be immence, and miners should have deployable equipment and mega huge secure containers to fill, which are easy to anchor/unanchor. and anchorable turrets (like pos turrets) to take out pirates/grifers if need be.. i could go on but im off subject now :-(
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.04.20 01:27:00 -
[31]
If an op full of hulks are all getting aggroed and killed by a gang of flippers, then that's purely because they don't understand the game mechanics. They're not broken, mining isn't supposed to be 100% risk free, it just gets more risky the more isk you try to make. Which is right and proper.
If the pirate gets popped and leaves, and you still have an aggro counter, go and dock. If he has friends who are flashy, don't shoot them. And absolutely, 100% do NOT steal from his can.
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.20 01:38:00 -
[32]
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)
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NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.04.20 02:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)
what issue? the game's working as intended
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.20 09:19:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/04/2009 09:21:18
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
i have read a few threads on pirates in empire, and the fact they have an unfair advantage.. The funny thing is Concord is supposed to protect the honest player from the average game grieffer
here you fail. Concord does not protect.
Just dont mine in trash cans, if you prefer jettison cans to secure cans you accept the risk related to it.
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lXP
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Posted - 2009.04.20 09:24:00 -
[35]
more interesting is how to cook rice with beans without water... and ppl think its impossible...
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.20 11:43:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Durzel on 20/04/2009 11:43:35
I'm possibly being a bit of an idiot here but I really don't understand what the big issue is with can-flipping.
I don't do it myself (carebear yo!) and I can see why it would be annoying that someone would ruin your hard work, but that's why you have the choice between whether to steal it back and potentially lose your ship, or completely ignore them and lose the ore but keep your ship.
It never ceases to amaze me how people continually get killed in expensive ships by someone can-flipping them when it's obvious that the flipper is set up for PvP and the flippee... isn't (unless they aren't really interested in mining/missioning anyway and are just hoping to gank a flipper with a bizarre & unexpected setup).
*shrug*
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.04.20 11:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 20/04/2009 11:45:29
there are secure cans at your disposal. Use them.
If you prefer insecure cans for larger volume accepting the tradeoff of thievery you cant go on forums then and whine about thievery.
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Desiree Cousteau
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Posted - 2009.04.20 15:14:00 -
[38]
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)
what issue? the game's working as intended
it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..
If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?
what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)
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Traidor Disloyal
Minmatar
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.04.20 15:20:00 -
[39]
There is nothing wrong with how it works now. Do one of the following:
1. Mine into a secure container
2. Bring protection
If you do not want to do either one then to bad. And by the way OP, you were one of my favorite actresses in your time. Loved your movies.
*************************************************
I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Hariya
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Posted - 2009.04.20 15:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)
I agree. Concord should destroy the person who makes a jetcan in the first place for littering.
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endaler
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.04.20 16:04:00 -
[41]
Maybe you should stop using the word griefing, since griefing is: A griefer is a player who plays a computer game simply to aggravate and harass other players.
Just because you are on the wrong end of the missile launcher, doesn't mean they are griefing you. Have you thought about risk vs reward? Can flipping is almost the ONLY risk a miner has. Taking that away will be risk = 0, reward = OVER 9000!!!
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Anjor
Minmatar
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.04.20 17:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)
what issue? the game's working as intended
it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..
If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?
what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)
Bad analogy there, but being that you're as dense as you're naive I figure let's break it down better.
First of all, they aren't killing you, they are "destroying" property. They have rights to attack your ship, but not your pod so I suggest you figure out the difference. It is fair, it is like saying it isn't fair that I left my car unlocked and someone stole from it.
You're trying to bring law into an environment that law doesn't truly exist. Best way to describe Eve, is Frontier Justice. You, the explorer find someone stealing your property, as it is your right to defend that said property you may engage them, however with the rule saying that any man that escalates with a weapon said other man may defend themselves accordingly. So you pull a gun, and in their said defense they are able to use a gun as well.
Don't dilute yourself into thinking you should have special treatment, the game is designed more or less with a set principle of the dark ages. It's a kill or be killed environment, with extraterritorial powers for the nations and set alliances. If you have a said problem with this I would suggest finding friends to work with, as any frontiers men knew when they went into the west at any given moment being alone you could find yourself dead. There isn't a true safety, just more or less safe. Learn the mechanics, and adapt...or perish.
__________________________________________________
It's great being amar...wait im Minmatar that plays amarr..Great im really ****ed... |
RedSplat
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2009.04.20 17:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Irn Bruce
HIGHSEC mining isn't supposed to be 100% risk free
Originally by: Irn Bruce
it just gets more risky the more isk you try to make. Which is right and proper.
Sadly not the case as current, mining veld in Highsec is more profitable than almost all Lowsec ores and a goodly number of 0.0 Ores, ABC excepted.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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Teth Soress
Minmatar
The Hunt Club
|
Posted - 2009.04.20 17:56:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Teth Soress on 20/04/2009 17:57:44
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
By the way, the one true solution, I feel, is to remove all aggression rights from jet cans. If you jettison it, it's free game. Whether someone else takes it from you and puts it in their own jet can? No difference, still fair game.
This wouldn't stop people from taking your stuff (theft, only without the legalities), but would stop them from using it as a gank tactic.
^^this
Or they could just make a larger secure can. There is no real sensible reason why a secure can has to be the size that they limit them to.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.04.20 18:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 20/04/2009 18:19:29
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
Originally by: NightF0x
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
So herein lies the problem, ccp should address the issue fully i think by the next patch.... im off to bed now :-)
what issue? the game's working as intended
it is but it shouldn't... your missing the point.. ok let me explain with a different situation..
If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?
what im saying is ccp should make it more fair for the victim's of can flippers that are just out to grief.. give a defence modifier bonus or concord intervention at least :-)
Never, ever mistake law and order in New Eden with law and order in the real world. Concord does not protect your stuff from theft, it merely protects you. You have the right to protect your own stuff if someone takes it but if you use that right then you lose the privilege of Concord protection from your target.
Your stuff must therefore be protected by you. You can do so with GSCsif you wish, making the stuff unstealable; you can have other people around to protect you and your stuff; or you can use a ship with a large hold so you don't ever need to jettison. Any combination of these is acceptable.
Those are the mechanics; it is up to you how you use them. If you can't use the mechanic then don't complain about how Eve is broken.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Crimson Dragons
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Posted - 2009.04.23 03:01:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)
by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(
If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)
by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(
If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.
Large Secure Containers. thats why.
And then, he killed the dog... |
Octoven
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:22:00 -
[48]
I like it, it balances out and gives noobs a chance for assitance. Griffers are just pilots who dont want to try it in low sec so they basically take advantage of noob weakness.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Crimson Dragons
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 03:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Desiree Cousteau
glad that some of you got the point lol, yes pirating is not the problem. it is griefing as a result of flipping your can.. a common gang gank tactic is , 3 man griefer fleet target a mining op. 1 fleet member goes in, (in a cheap frigate) flips the miner can, the miner either a) moves the ore back, or b) attacks the flipper with drones,, either way causes counter aggression, gank buddies warp in and take out all the hulks in ewar hacs.. (btw we do usually mine into a orca during corp ops now, just miners when the orca pilot is offline use the old jetcan, which in my Opinion should be 100% safe to do in high security space)
by the way the term "jettison" in the space sence of the word, would mean cast overboard, ie jettison fuel, Jettison waste.. whichever synome of the word, it does not mean to "Disown" (im tire :-(
If we weren't meant to mine into jetcans the hold of a retriever would be big enough to hold at least one full cycle of both lasers with mining laser upgrades and the fleeting bonus.
Large Secure Containers. thats why.
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Lear Hepburn
Caldari
Ascendant Strategies Inc.
The Transcendent
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 05:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.
So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.
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Grek Forto
Malevolent Intentions
Dark Solar Empire
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 06:37:00 -
[51]
Stop whining and use GSC's ffs.
Originally by: Stitcher
It's "Caldari", not "Caldarians". One Caldari, three Caldari, all the Caldari are doing Caldari things using Caldari tools in a Caldari way.
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Hariya
|
Posted - 2009.04.23 17:18:00 -
[52]
Originally by: endaler
Maybe you should stop using the word griefing, since griefing is: A griefer is a player who plays a computer game simply to aggravate and harass other players.
, and does it constantly, as a targeted action towards specific player. If podding repeatedly and camping outside the station did not happen, it was not griefing.
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Johli
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.04.23 17:21:00 -
[53]
tl;dr I'm doing something that was never intended though original game mechanics and I am getting griefed. Why isn't CONCORD protecting me etc etc brb sleep
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Giddoni
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Posted - 2009.04.23 19:49:00 -
[54]
Quote:
If i walk outside with a gun and shoot someone in the head, within minutes a swat team will be around me telling me to drop the gun or die, (usually shoot first lol).. but if i steal someone's car then kill them with a gun, the police should be fine with that?? even if the person i stole from puched me in the face for stealing his car before i killed him?
I love this analogy 
Quote:
just remove aggression rights from jetcans
I think this gets at the heart of the issue. Jetcan "ownership" is a weird mechanic that I'd like to see go away. Making jetcans "unowned" would change the situation. Instead of people shooting eachother over a jetcan, it would be industrials going around scooping cans with impunity. Unfortunately for solo mining, that would mean a lot of warping back and forth, or using a badger  , or any one of a number of creative techniques, but that'd still be an improvement over the current situation where rookies are getting tricked and killed.
That leaves the question of how to avenge someone taking from your un-owned jetcan, which opens up the issue of war declarations on people in NPC corporations, which is discussed in depth elsewhere.
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hawtalt pr0nmistress
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Posted - 2009.04.23 22:12:00 -
[55]
Just another idiot whining that they want game mechanics changed to suit them. Jetcan flagging was only introduced because soooo many people were exploiting the jetcan feature by using it as a portable 27k m3 cargo hold then moaning because people could steal their ore with impunity.
If you don't want to die when your can gets flipped, don't reflip/shoot (tbh you're an idiot if you do either without backup). Alternatively, don't mine somewhere there are loads of can flippers. The OP and his corp are so full of fail my eyes are bleeding. My suggestion is to leave it as it is because it's not broken but train players to not be morons. Alternatively, this could be a maximum trollage thread in which case, good job!
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
Crimson Dragons
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.
So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.
In case you haven't noticed, mining lasers have a range on them.
There are many systems already so dense with secure cans that its impossible to plant more within actual range of the belt.
So saying to "just" use secure containers is meaningless hand-waving.
With all the whining that goes on about how mining veld in high-sec is more profitable than mining low sec making it even harder to mine large quantities of veld would increase the price of tritanium further and concentrate people even more tightly in high-sec.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:15:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Originally by: Lear Hepburn
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Which you can't anchor close enough together to mine a single, decent-sized asteroid into them.
So you actually have to move? My God, what an awful idea! In that case you must be correct about the whole subject.
That was sarcasm, in case it doesn't come across.
In case you haven't noticed, mining lasers have a range on them.
There are many systems already so dense with secure cans that its impossible to plant more within actual range of the belt.
So saying to "just" use secure containers is meaningless hand-waving.
With all the whining that goes on about how mining veld in high-sec is more profitable than mining low sec making it even harder to mine large quantities of veld would increase the price of tritanium further and concentrate people even more tightly in high-sec.
There are approximately 1,212 hisec systems in the EvE cluster. Of that, most of those systems have between 6 and 12 belts, almost all of which are composed primarily of veldspar (with the odd ice belt here and there).
Your saying that in all 1,212 systems, multiplied and averaged by half a dozen, there are so many secure cans placed that you are unable to place your own to mine into?
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Erovicious
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hariya
In case you did not realize, pirates are one of the major and most respected occupations in Eve. Eve is not supposed to be Hello Kitty Online. Eve is 100% PVP game. If you can't handle it, go back to WOW or subscribe to the Hello Kitty Online.
Let me see if I can translate this poster's response:
1) Pirates > You. (Still living with your parents at age 35 is part of their special skill set, which isn't for everyone.)
2) EvE is a game that promotes beliefs modeled after the U.S. Government - those who work have the fruits of their labors taken by those (or distributed to those) who do not - and you have to like it.
3) You are not permitted to have a counter view to this poster. If you do, you must find another game. Shame on you.
*Ero*
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Nephilius
Caldari
Grey Legionaires
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 18:45:00 -
[59]
Originally by: cyno here
Because stealing is not criminal act (police don't care) but they let you fight back a flipper.
Also jettison cans were NOT ment for mining, for that you got secure cans + hauler.
I find this post funny. In another post, there was a request for a larger secure can, something between GSCs and Freighter Secure Containers. The reply there was to use jetcans because they have massive amounts of space. I just found the above to be humorously (or should that be humorlessly?) ironic.
I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month. |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.04.24 19:03:00 -
[60]
2003 characters are great in every sense.
Now we dealing with a 2003, extreme carebear. WTF? Dude stop whining and accept the rules or GTFO. Read yourself, you sound like a 7 years old kid crying cause some other guy took your toy. Grow up!!!
The average player has lost 2-3 ships due to canflippers at noob stage, but there is no reason you won't learn from it and adapt...
This game is meant to interact with others in a hostile world. means pew pew, as said this is not Hello Kitty online. You cant avoid "griefers" to round you. More like if you show up like a big carebear, you will get dozens of them harassing you and your mining ops.
You are not forced to use jetcans. You want the reward and not the risk. You want CONCORD to work at your entire disposal and service. WTF.
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Nephilius
Caldari
Grey Legionaires
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Posted - 2009.04.24 20:32:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
This game is meant to interact with others in a hostile world. means you'll have a fight forced on you, and play a game of "Will my ship pop before CONCORD shows up to deal with this unprovoked attack?"
Us mean old yarrs just don't want our source of hi-sec entertainment taken away by a pesky Eve police force. That wouldn't be very fair to us!
Fixed it for you.
Not that I completely agree with the OP, but lets call a spade a spade. Not everybody here is a mindless idiot.
I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month. |
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 21:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Nephilius
Originally by: Ms Delerium
This game is meant to interact with others in a hostile world. means you'll have a fight forced on you, and play a game of "Will my ship pop before CONCORD shows up to deal with this unprovoked attack?"
Us mean old yarrs just don't want our source of hi-sec entertainment taken away by a pesky Eve police force. That wouldn't be very fair to us!
Fixed it for you.
Not that I completely agree with the OP, but lets call a spade a spade. Not everybody here is a mindless idiot.
It's natural to suspect other players of hidden agenda's. This is EvE, after all.
But I firmly support the game's harsh tendencies, and I've never scammed, stolen, or pirated. Despite that, it's something I appreciate.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Tressin Khiyne
Minmatar
The Tal'Shiar
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 22:58:00 -
[63]
I have the absolute solution to this issue:
Make Jet cans smaller. If a Jetcan is only 100 m/3, miner's will never use them. Add the ability to trash items in your cargo hold and the carebears will eventually stop whining so much because they'll be forced to use the appropriate equipment.
--
Save the SEXY in EVE!
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 23:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tressin Khiyne
I have the absolute solution to this issue:
Make Jet cans smaller. If a Jetcan is only 100 m/3, miner's will never use them. Add the ability to trash items in your cargo hold and the carebears will eventually stop whining so much because they'll be forced to use the appropriate equipment.
It's always been a bit disturbing that a jetcan, which you seem to magically just whip one up from common parts in your cargo hold, is also capable of such INCREDIBLE size.
Kinda suspicious, if you ask me. 
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Aeon Noblemagus
Minmatar
Sons Of 0din
SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.04.24 23:32:00 -
[65]
really op your not very smart, go to lowsec, find a dead end system full of vled and mine your little heart out, when someone passes it comes on local right? so take a quick gander at his in game age/corp/sec rating. ive mined about 120-200k (amount of ore, not profit made of vled in like 30mins while matching a movie.
Thats what i do. who ever said they lose 2/3 ships while mining is right, I've lost one and im a total noob, i onyl lost it after checking his ship type, saw it had less hp them mine less high slots so jumped into station changed ship and went after him, i Lost he had drones TOTALLY forgot about that. but it was a fair right so i'm not complaining.
TL:DR dont whine and adapt or more somewhere more quiet
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Nephilius
Caldari
Grey Legionaires
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Posted - 2009.04.25 13:42:00 -
[66]
I think the reality of the mechanics do reflect the reality of everyday earth life...the police can't be there everytime something bad happens, no matter how much we want them to be. Same in Eve...if the pirates can smuggle themselves into the 'safe' part of the galaxy, then so be it. What they do after that is up to them. Like the real cops, CONCORD can only do so much.
Having played a yarr and a carebear, I can see both sides of the issue now. On one side, some empire players want things too easy, no threat whatsoever. They want that Codebreaker kind of play. On the reverse side, the pirates want more kills and will rail against any idea that might take that from them. Its a stalemate at best. As suggested before me, the best you can do is watch your ass, get some secure containers and keep on truckin'. If you can't do that, well, I don't know what else to tell you.
I ate a Carebear once...couldn't quit farting rainbows for a month. |
Erovicious
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 15:12:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tressin Khiyne
I have the absolute solution to this issue:
Make Jet cans smaller. If a Jetcan is only 100 m/3, miner's will never use them. Add the ability to trash items in your cargo hold and the carebears will eventually stop whining so much because they'll be forced to use the appropriate equipment.
Clearly someone who has never mined a day in his life, certainly not with any ship (Hulk) with a decent set of skills behind it.
GSC's won't even hold one cycle from a miner with even passable mining skills.
Solution for everyone: Miners stop mining period. Then you PvP fanatics can pay 10x the price per ship to go get your jollies cuz the only source of minerals is from mission loot reprocessing.
*Ero*
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Alxea
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 17:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Alxea on 27/04/2009 17:45:37
If you ever looked at my KB, I have started suiside ganking pods in highsec and using my high sec status every few weeks to commit murder.
I could make a service out of this. Or just pod people like you who complain about piracy. Do you want to be podded? Making threads like this can get you that.
Don't have your drones out in high sec and they can't attack you. They think your a macro miner and they think you deserve it.
Now adays its impossible to suiside gank a transport in highsec with 1 bill in loot cus CCP buffed concords response time because of people like you.
The customer is always right?! WRONG! Only thing I can gank is a pod or a frig. I have yet to find a way agenst a mining barge hmm maybe a max DPS blastertron will do it. huh Didn't try that yet. Might be fun. 
PS: Use secure containers and stop complaining about stealing. Only your own fault.
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Relf Mintor
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Posted - 2009.04.27 18:24:00 -
[69]
Why doesn't CCP make bigger Secure Containers that are ment for a real hauler to bring there or a frieghter. Instead of having 20-30 GSC's in one belt?
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Tressin Khiyne
Minmatar
The Tal'Shiar
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Posted - 2009.04.27 18:46:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Erovicious
Originally by: Tressin Khiyne
I have the absolute solution to this issue:
Make Jet cans smaller. If a Jetcan is only 100 m/3, miner's will never use them. Add the ability to trash items in your cargo hold and the carebears will eventually stop whining so much because they'll be forced to use the appropriate equipment.
Clearly someone who has never mined a day in his life, certainly not with any ship (Hulk) with a decent set of skills behind it.
GSC's won't even hold one cycle from a miner with even passable mining skills.
Solution for everyone: Miners stop mining period. Then you PvP fanatics can pay 10x the price per ship to go get your jollies cuz the only source of minerals is from mission loot reprocessing.
*Ero*
So you're saying that the *only way to mine is with jet cans? If that's true then there's obviously a need for larger secure containers. In either case, true or not, reducing the size of Jet cans is both reasonable, and likely to eliminate can flipping. More work for miners - yes. More expensive for minerals - yes. Neither of these is a negative though. More work = more pay for miners, and there is a definite need for more ISK sinks in EVE as is.
--
Save the SEXY in EVE!
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