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[Issue] Nerf local

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Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.04.26 13:48:00 - [1] There were allready two threads on this topic, but they are older than 60 days and closed because of inactivity. So, once again: Please nerf local intel All regional chats (system, constellation and region) should have no visible list of players who are in system to prevent easy intel. The probing system can still be used for intel. If this is hard to implement because of some reason, consider just to change the client to not to draw this player list on the screen. So the information is still present in client but hidden from users. Abuse by external tools like BACON would still be possible, but could be fixed later. And please nerf local intel soon, not in five years.
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.04.26 15:55:00 - [2] I do not support this :)
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.26 16:02:00 - [3] lol try again... No support. --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.26 16:12:00 - [4] Until proper intel-gathering measures are implemented, I cannot support this. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!
Bary OBama	Posted - 2009.04.26 16:14:00 - [5] Disagree.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.26 16:47:00 - [6] I support this. Better intell and scanning tools would be nice, but they are not required to make this change work. The Local list is a crutch leaned on by far too many pilots for the wrong reasons. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.26 20:20:00 - [7] Strongly disagree. Utter rubish. Once again completely ignoring the realities that miners and other none hunting pilots face on a second by second basis. Windjammer
ITTigerClawIK Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers	Posted - 2009.04.26 21:39:00 - [8] i wouldnt mind anyone in a cov ops ship to be hidden untill they speak in local at least then i can actully scout covertly but yea this owuld be welcome to Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.04.26 22:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Windjammer Once again completely ignoring the realities that miners and other none hunting pilots face on a second by second basis. These people could place probes covering the gates and hit the scan button from time to time. It requires some effort and attention, and you dont get it for free. So it 'feels more real'. And best thing is: It will be difficult to place and maintain the probes using a macro program, so macro users are pretty nice screwed and will be hunted down more often.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2009.04.26 23:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Ausser Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Until proper intel-gathering measures are implemented, I cannot support this. What would be "proper intel-gathering" measures for you? The problem i can see here is: We will not get such "proper intel" because there is no need atm. And there is no need because of local. But we cannot remove local because there is no "proper intel".... Causality chain closed. So we will never get rid of fun and atmosphere breaking local untill we accept to live for a while without intel. Once local is gone we get better suited and balancable intel tools. "Proper intel tools" would largely duplicate the function of local, without it all being based on a stupid chat channel. One of the more interesting proposals I've heard along these lines(though still very much a first draft) is here, with some modifications I suggested here - empire-controlled space will give players intel access based on standings with the respective empires, player-controlled space will allow POSes to anchor scanning arrays that give you intel, and you'll be able to fit some sort of scanner module that gives you the same. It's more powerful than current local, but actually has requirements on use. And I don't regard this as a chicken/egg problem at all, though I will admit that I phrased my above post badly. I don't necessarily want the intel tools implemented before local is nerfed, though some might be, but they will need to be designed first, and ready to go. It should be a general swap of the two, all at once. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting!

Bary OBama	Posted - 2009.04.26 23:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Ausser It requires some effort and attention, and you dont get it for free. Yet you want effort free kills of ratters and miners. Just go ratting, it's about the same level of effort but you get more kills.
Cyprus Black Caldari Elitist Jerks Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.27 04:18:00 - [12] I'd use the thumbs down checkbox if I had one. Definitely not supported. I had a list of reasons why this is an obviously terribad idea, but I doubt the OP would understand. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
JanSVK	Posted - 2009.04.27 08:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Ausser Edited by: Ausser on 26/04/2009 22:22:22 Originally by: Windjammer Once again completely ignoring the realities that miners and other none hunting pilots face on a second by second basis. These people could place probes covering the gates and hit the scan button from time to time. It requires some effort and attention, and you dont get it for free. So it 'feels more real'. And best thing is: It will be difficult to place and maintain the probes using a macro program, so macro users are pretty nice screwed and will be hunted down more often. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Until proper intel-gathering measures are implemented, I cannot support this. What would be "proper intel-gathering" measures for you? The problem i can see here is: We will not get such "proper intel" because there is no need atm. And there is no need because of local. But we cannot remove local because there is no "proper intel".... Causality chain closed. So we will never get rid of fun and atmosphere breaking local untill we accept to live for a while without intel. Once local is gone we get better suited and balancable intel tools. You don't want local? Go to w-space! Current problems: 1, Probing in PVP is only usefull to find carebears in plexes and such. You can not probe ships without an Expanded Probe launcher (220 tf). It should be the other way around. 2, Hit the scan button from time to time? You have to be very very lucky to find a force recon, bomber, or any ship using cov-op cloak which is visible for like 1 second during an op taking hours. 3, Carebear ships have virtually no chance agains PVP ships, espetially miners and haulers. 4, Show me the risk in this situation for the PVPers: Carebears mining/ratting in system. Single PVPer cop-op with covert cyno sneaks into system and checks out the targets (no local, ship cloaked = no way to know for the carebears), PVPer opens covert-cyno his gang jumps in in bombers/Recon, ect.. (no local, ships cloaked = no way to know for the carebears). PVPers own the carebears. Proper intel gathering suggestions: 1, auto reloading ship scanner 2, fof(friend or foe) or fou(fried or unknow) identification when using probes or ships scanner. 3, long ago I suggested proxi sensors/probes: you drop probe like a mobile disruptor buble that automaticly relays you info about any ship passing through it's scan range(200 km).
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.27 09:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Ausser There were allready two threads on this topic, but they are older than 60 days and closed because of inactivity. So, once again: Please nerf local intel All regional chats (system, constellation and region) should have no visible list of players who are in system to prevent easy intel. The probing system can still be used for intel. If this is hard to implement because of some reason, consider just to change the client to not to draw this player list on the screen. So the information is still present in client but hidden from users. Abuse by external tools like BACON would still be possible, but could be fixed later. And please nerf local intel soon, not in five years. I'm pretty sure that CCP are already working on this and the holdup is more to do with designing a viable active intel replacement than anything else.
Lewyrus Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.04.27 11:12:00 - [15] Not supported. No alternative means for gaining similar-level intel. POS-scanners of some sort (that fill local for those who have enough high standing) could work, if they not tie it to sov (think about npc regions), but they would also give defenders a significant advantage. You "delayed-local-everywhere" guys play this game with local minimized, right? It could backfire, you know. How many times do you look at local without noticing it?
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.27 12:58:00 - [16] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 27/04/2009 13:00:07 Not supported. Nerf of Local would make indeed EvE 'more real'. Problem : Reality is not fun, and more a game become real, more he become harder, so less fun. A game must be a good compromise of difficulty and effort to please everyone, and Local permit it. Local is fine, period.
RedSplat RennTech	Posted - 2009.04.27 13:06:00 - [17] Infallible local Intel tool RUINS any pretense at stealth. Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting. Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
steave435 SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.04.27 13:27:00 - [18] Definetly needed. Having local as an intel tool really makes no sense at all, mineing and ratting groups should just use their directional scanners combined with combat probes and actual scouts on gates. 1 combat probe dropped at max range (a few spread around system if the system is too big) will inform you of any new ships that appear.
Voltas Stormtide Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Voltas Stormtide on 27/04/2009 14:35:09 Having experienced the adrenaline rush of hunting for and being hunted in the local channel free environment of wh space, I fully support this implementation across at least 0.0, if not all of eve. There are the aforementioned problems assosiated with the resisdents of the systems struggling to get intel, but it is a two sided coin. This game is ultimately about teamwork and time and time again it has been proven that the side that works together best prevails. If this means better use of scouting and intel gathering so be it. In 0.0 this could include the use of tactical bubbles to slow down the approach of the enemy giving time to assess their numbers. I think there should be the facility while docked in station to switch to an external station camera to see what is outside - it would be very simillar to when you look at an object with the camera locked but free to rotate. Maybe no overview but the ships would reflect your current overview brackets. As is stands the directional scan is a bit weak, but i have heard other players propose some sort of active scan mode (consider what we have now as a passive mode) that would perform regualar "pings" of the area alerting the player to other ships in the vicinity. All in all I think some people will need to adapt their play style a little bit and stop treating eve as a single player game but it should do a lot to prevent the hordes of cloaking macro ravens in 0.0 cloaking before anyone gets a look in. 100% support
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Voltas Stormtide I think there should be the facility while docked in station to switch to an external station camera to see what is outside - it would be very simillar to when you look at an object with the camera locked but free to rotate. Maybe no overview but the ships would reflect your current overview brackets. This would be a beneficial change (and I still support "Recent Speakers" mode for 0.0 Local) ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.04.27 15:58:00 - [21] I love running around in wormholes while cloaked. Delayed local is great. However there's certainly a case to be made about the fact that new intel-gathering systems needs to be implemented before anything else.
Pian Shu SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cult of War	Posted - 2009.04.27 18:31:00 - [22] Edited by: Pian Shu on 27/04/2009 18:32:04 Originally by: JanSVK 4, Show me the risk in this situation for the PVPers: Carebears mining/ratting in system. Single PVPer cop-op with covert cyno sneaks into system and checks out the targets (no local, ship cloaked = no way to know for the carebears), PVPer opens covert-cyno his gang jumps in in bombers/Recon, ect.. (no local, ships cloaked = no way to know for the carebears). PVPers own the carebears. Here is the risk. "Carebears" have cloaked protective fleet of recons or other nasties; hunting fleet jumps in and attempts to kill "easy" target, gets free trip to fresh clone instead. Hunters think twice next time.
B0B Auer	Posted - 2009.04.27 19:41:00 - [23] Edited by: B0B Auer on 27/04/2009 19:45:34 Let's make it like in Wurm Online: If you're cloaked, you're "cloaked" in local too I like idea of scout a system withoung being in local any maybe you add a 60 seconds timer until you're in local if you don't recloak so you can launch probes.
Feilamya	Posted - 2009.04.27 21:21:00 - [24] Edited by: Feilamya on 27/04/2009 21:21:10 Maybe introduce delayed local gradually. start by with 0.0 only, or cloakers only...
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2009.04.28 07:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Pian Shu Here is the risk. "Carebears" have cloaked protective fleet of recons or other nasties; Ha ha, yeah. The protectors are doing it for free, I assume? Or are the "carebears" going to work for free, so they can pay for their protection? I'm sure there's lots of people willing to sit around for hours, waiting until someone jumps them.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.04.28 11:00:00 - [26] tup
Cipher7	Posted - 2009.04.28 11:49:00 - [27] If you want to nerf local, give all ships built in probe launcher, built-in probes. Otherwise no.
Pian Shu SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cult of War	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Pian Shu on 28/04/2009 19:07:16 Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Ha ha, yeah. The protectors are doing it for free, I assume? Or are the "carebears" going to work for free, so they can pay for their protection? No, the point is now you can see immediately if the miner is a bait ship (because he'll have friends which show up in local). If you remove local as an infallible intelligence tool, you won't know if the miner is bait until his friends show up. The definition of risk is: Originally by: Wiktionary A possible, usually negative, outcome, e.g., a danger. With infallible knowledge of who is in the system, there is no risk. Without that knowledge, risk is achieved. Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind I'm sure there's lots of people willing to sit around for hours, waiting until someone jumps them. They do this now, it's called a gate camp.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:08:00 - [29] You want me to support Local changes? Change how we gather intel then. Therein lies the problem, cloaked ships would become the next overpowered ship. Then you'll all demand that they be nerfed. Thus nerfing them into pointlessness. So until you come up with a better way for supplying intel, I won't support any changes to local. (Directional scanner doesn't count in its current form). --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
Efrim Black Gallente Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker You want me to support Local changes? Change how we gather intel then. Therein lies the problem, cloaked ships would become the next overpowered ship. Then you'll all demand that they be nerfed. Thus nerfing them into pointlessness. So until you come up with a better way for supplying intel, I won't support any changes to local. (Directional scanner doesn't count in its current form). --Isaac 1. Cloaked Signature. Impossible to pin down, but shows up faintly on the combat probes. It won't give away a cloaked ships actual location, but it will give anyone with the nerve to bring a scout the knowledge someone could be peeking in on them. 2. Thus far, the complaint has been intel tools, but I firmly believe that the current intel tools are fine, if actually put into practice. Add 1 signature for cloaked ships, and I'm sold. Otherwise, no support. (And thats hard for me since I really really want to see this)



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