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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 14:20:00 -
[1]
Now just to clarify I'm not here to beg for people to tell me how to trade or give me uber tips on trading. I'm just here to report my progress and thoughts after a week of "attempted" trading. As always criticism, both constructive and otherwise, is always welcome.
So this character is many years old and still hadn't started trading. Well now I'm interested in learning and here are my thoughts and lessons.
First of all the trade hubs scare me. I have 6,400 in trade skills and think with those skills Jita would eat me alive. Am I wrong?
So I have started at a mission hub. I did some research and found a few meta 4's that were being bought for less than half what they sell for. In addition there are few orders in total. I had about 600 mil sitting around doing nothing so I decided to jump in with 100 mil, nothing I'd miss. I outbid the current orders by 10%. In addition I wanted to test the waters so I only put buy orders for 5 units each. This turned out to be smart I think. Only 3 orders of the 11 I put up have completed. And that is only because I knew it would only take a few hours due to high volume in the mission hub.
Here is what happened to the other orders. Within a day the buy orders exploded on the other items. What was once 2 buy orders exploded into 6-12 buy orders. At first look I was daunted. Why all of a sudden did lots of people home in on what I had found? So I let my orders sit there and decided I'd come back the next day. In that time I realised something. Maybe I was still dealing with 2 buyers? I took a look back at the amount of units being bought in each order and they were between 1-5. So. . . Someone must be trying to scare me out of the market. . . At least that is what I think.
I am not sure but I have the fear that the other buyer or buyers might raise the prices to the fact that no one can make any money. This hasn't happened but I think it might.
What can I do in this situation? I'm not giving up, that is for sure.
On a positive note the orders that did complete before anyone could react I doubled or tripled my money. However in such small quantities I only made like 10 mil ISK an hour for my time invested. As a veteran mission runner it isn't that much.
I know I am going to figure it out eventually, because I'm not giving up, but I am just sharing my experience with the MD community.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.04.28 14:29:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Fzhal
What can I do in this situation? I'm not giving up, that is for sure.
TL:DR  (1st time I've ever said that). But sounds like you are doing well for first time flyer. Don't sweat the isk per hour right now. Learn your techniques and expand as your expertise grows. Kind of like Tai Chi. Speed & Power comes after repetitious, and slow, practice. (PS: Try hanging out in SCC Lounge channel, endless kibitzing possibilities there if needed.)
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Shadow Reapers
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2009.04.28 14:44:00 -
[3]
Skillpoints really aren't much of a limiting factor. What they are good for is reducing the costs of buying -> selling which start at about 3% of the cost (transaction tax + broker fee of both transactions). If you're starting to trade with 100m you can work with items that have margins of 20% so 3% isn't much of an issue.
It's only Jita where competition is really cutthroat, however, it's also the only pace with huge volumes trading of pretty much every item. In other hubs you'll just have a little more trouble finding high-volume items. Don't be intimated by the hubs, try it out for a week or so and compare your experiences at trading in different places. I traded in both Amarr and Rens, and in a couple of mission hubs, before I decided to park myself in Jita anyway.
There's a good chance that someone was already working the market in the items you discovered. Raising the order by 10% will have annoyed those traders as you're eating into their margin significantly, so one or more of them may well have decided they don't want you there and are killing the market temporarily so that everyone will leave it and they can restore it to its previous level later as they're the one's keeping orders at un-profitable levels.
Another possibility is that some people saw those orders going up by a lot and thought 'someone sees a profit there, I can probably profit off it too!' and went lemming. When you have the option, just increase orders by 0.01 isk, the only time you want to increase it more than that is if you think people would be more inclined to sell at a higher price if you believe they're currently reprocessing the item or moving it to a hub for better sales. Otherwise there really is little reason to besides manipulating the market.
The amount you make from trades will begin low, especially as you haven't discovered many items to trade in yet, it does take a while to really get into the market you work, before you learn its normal behaviour etc.
Also, the absolute amount you make is limited by the money you're using to make money. There's an analogy to mission running: if you started that with 100m you'd have a rigless tier-1 bs or a well fit drake, not much more than 10-15m/h you can make with that either. If you're working with 1b isk you can have a rigged marauder or t2 rigged faction ship with faction mods, bringing you up closer to 40m/h. It's a lower relative amount, starting with 100 and turning it into 110 in an hour is a 10% gain, 1b to 1040m only 4% increase... it's the same with the market. At lower isk levels your % increase is high, but the absolute amount you make won't buy you a titan any time soon. When you're working with billions you'll be very happy to have a 10% gain in a day.
Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature. |
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.28 14:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Fzhal
Now just to clarify I'm not here to beg for people to tell me how to trade or give me uber tips on trading. I'm just here to report my progress and thoughts after a week of "attempted" trading. As always criticism, both constructive and otherwise, is always welcome.
So this character is many years old and still hadn't started trading. Well now I'm interested in learning and here are my thoughts and lessons.
First of all the trade hubs scare me. I have 6,400 in trade skills and think with those skills Jita would eat me alive. Am I wrong?
So I have started at a mission hub. I did some research and found a few meta 4's that were being bought for less than half what they sell for. In addition there are few orders in total. I had about 600 mil sitting around doing nothing so I decided to jump in with 100 mil, nothing I'd miss. I outbid the current orders by 10%. In addition I wanted to test the waters so I only put buy orders for 5 units each. This turned out to be smart I think. Only 3 orders of the 11 I put up have completed. And that is only because I knew it would only take a few hours due to high volume in the mission hub.
Here is what happened to the other orders. Within a day the buy orders exploded on the other items. What was once 2 buy orders exploded into 6-12 buy orders. At first look I was daunted. Why all of a sudden did lots of people home in on what I had found? So I let my orders sit there and decided I'd come back the next day. In that time I realised something. Maybe I was still dealing with 2 buyers? I took a look back at the amount of units being bought in each order and they were between 1-5. So. . . Someone must be trying to scare me out of the market. . . At least that is what I think.
I am not sure but I have the fear that the other buyer or buyers might raise the prices to the fact that no one can make any money. This hasn't happened but I think it might.
What can I do in this situation? I'm not giving up, that is for sure.
On a positive note the orders that did complete before anyone could react I doubled or tripled my money. However in such small quantities I only made like 10 mil ISK an hour for my time invested. As a veteran mission runner it isn't that much.
I know I am going to figure it out eventually, because I'm not giving up, but I am just sharing my experience with the MD community.
you should look for niches.. what could be sold at a hub but arent, or is currently not under heavy competetion.
moreover you should get out of the meta 4 market, its a hard market to compete in... imo.
you are doing well, research your hubs, what are they used for? miners, missioners? traders etc.
and try to look for good deals in the trading channels in eve.!
Quote:
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.04.28 15:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: flakeys on 28/04/2009 15:05:34
Edited by: flakeys on 28/04/2009 15:04:03
Looks like your doing well for your first week.
You are right in thinking the prices will go up a lot because indeed you have a high chance people will try to scare you off.What i suggest:
-I don't know if you are only doing station-orders but expand this to say a 2 jump-range.Once you have that arranged after a few weeks expand more jumps if you feel like it.The bigger the range usually the more chance you get on getting those items in bigger units but most importantly if the other station buyers go above you in that particular system you are talking about they still are not putting you out of business.In other words their profit per unit goes down while you are still running fine.
Also in regards to jita:it's not about skillpoints but the time you have to update your orders.There are enough good items in jita to make profit on but the downside from jita and other big hubs is that the orders get updated FAST.When i am playing in jita i have to update my orders about every 6 minutes and at times even have to set 2 buy orders for the same item because i can't update my order yet due to the time-frame in wich you can re-update an order.
-Diversify your hubs.Don't just use one big mission system but use 2 or more to base your orders from.A trade-alt is easily made and from start can help you out a lot.This is for the same reason as above.Once one mission-system is going slow because of hard competition the chances are the other system-orders still are running smoothly so again no one is putting you out of business.
Btw jita doesn't need a certain amount of skillpoints , just a hell of a lot of time to update your orders every 6 minutes or so.So yes hubs are good to earn a good amount of isk but you will need to put some time and effort into it.
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Business Ethics
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Posted - 2009.04.28 15:10:00 -
[6]
With Trade, Retail, Wholesale, and Tycoon all at level 5 you can manage 305 open orders. Margin Trading reduces the amount you need in escrow. You have 3 character slots on your account. More on your alt accounts. There are at least 10 profitable empire regions that can be traded in. Sit on the border of 2 regions and learn the definition of Arbitrage. Train up Broker Relations and Accounting (in that order) and reduce your expenses (though they aren't prohibitive to begin with).
Devise a few profitability standards for your trading and go to town!
For hard core 0.01ing what you need to do is find a few items that trade sufficient volume in the amount of time you've got in the lead position in the market. Or you have to be confident that the daily volume will fill the orders beneath yours and reach your higher price
Learn to use region orders to control the supply and cut costs. Sure getting the stuff to market is a pain but you're making >100% markup right? That is money out of thin air!
Keep records! When you updated your orders on who where! How much you paid for that there then and what it cost to move it to here.
Once you can afford it get EMMA, she's invaluable to the experienced trader. If you already know trading is for you, get the license and start collecting your API data now rather than after things start to drop off the back of the logs.
In your specific case here, maybe the other guy doesn't care that he's cutting the margin so long as he scares you out of the market. Maybe he isn't even buying for resale but just trying to get a bargain for use with invention. Do you really need the money back today? Personally I wait it out. I don't have time to get sad about 1 item in one market.
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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.28 16:57:00 -
[7]
Yeah I have decided to let them sit there for a while. I think eventually the orders will be filled but in the mean time that doesn't make me any money. Not that I mind because I'm just getting my feet wet.
I don't have the time to spend adjusting market orders. I'd rather spend an hour or less every few days or week and make some extra ISK. That is at least until I get the feel for the market.
Thanks for the responses too.
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Market Lemming
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Posted - 2009.04.28 18:58:00 -
[8]
You dont want to crash the markets, cause any market lemming (like me) will follow anyways.
So you are ruining your own bizniz
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.28 19:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Market Lemming
You dont want to crash the markets, cause any market lemming (like me) will follow anyways.
So you are ruining your own bizniz
my alt sry!
Quote:
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.28 19:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Fzhal
Yeah I have decided to let them sit there for a while. I think eventually the orders will be filled but in the mean time that doesn't make me any money. Not that I mind because I'm just getting my feet wet.
I don't have the time to spend adjusting market orders. I'd rather spend an hour or less every few days or week and make some extra ISK. That is at least until I get the feel for the market.
Thanks for the responses too.
good idea patience is a virtue imo..
also consider moving your stuff to another hub if it dont sell.
it takes time but over time you will get a feeling for the market!
learn from your mistakes.
dont keep all your isk at your main account, transfer them to an alt, so you dont use them by mistake etc.!
Quote:
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Garramon
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.04.28 20:24:00 -
[11]
Just like any aspect of the game, the more time you can devote to it, the more money you can make off it. Trading scales on another parameter that most other aspects of the game are limited in scaling: capital. Sure, you can upgrade to a faction fit marauder for a bit more isk/hour missioning, but with trading the more you invest the more you can make. Turiel Demon's thoughts are dead on from my view.
If you want to make some "bonus" passive isk ... you'll need to find an area with much less competition.
I must admit though, I've dealt much more with the selling end than the purchasing ... Maybe something to look into :)
For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
http://www.codesavior.com/sghq/caresig.jpg
signature removed (max size 24000 bytes) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]) |
Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.29 13:57:00 -
[12]
Well I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to make money as a part time trader. It seems that I get .01 ISK'd very frequently. The only time my orders actually work is between my updates and when the others 1-Up me. And I'm not even in Jita.
Although I have had some ideas of how to diversify so I'll be trying that starting tonight or so.
Upon reflection I don't see how investing a billion would make a difference with these Meta 4 items. Even if you stand to make 4% there will always be someone who is willing to make 3% so you don't make any money. In trade hubs I don't see how a casual trader can make good ISK. Although I know what most are about to say. I've yet to find my niche. Which I'd agree. I still at this point think that it'd be pretty tough to make much ISK being a part time trader.
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Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fzhal
Well I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to make money as a part time trader. It seems that I get .01 ISK'd very frequently. The only time my orders actually work is between my updates and when the others 1-Up me. And I'm not even in Jita.
Although I have had some ideas of how to diversify so I'll be trying that starting tonight or so.
Upon reflection I don't see how investing a billion would make a difference with these Meta 4 items. Even if you stand to make 4% there will always be someone who is willing to make 3% so you don't make any money. In trade hubs I don't see how a casual trader can make good ISK. Although I know what most are about to say. I've yet to find my niche. Which I'd agree. I still at this point think that it'd be pretty tough to make much ISK being a part time trader.
There are many ways to make money as a casual trader, just dont expect to keep up with the all day 0.01iskers.
Alot of items in eve follow pretty regimented trends. Let the 0.01iskers fight for the daily volue at low profit. Pick up your stock at the bottom end of curve and sell off at the top end of the curve. this way you can buy low set you items at a mark up and wait for them to sell.
Find areas with lvl 3 agents, most traders aim for lvl 4 mission hub and so I found many good trading opertunities in lvl 3 agent stations less competition and yet people still need ship/mods/rigs/implants.
Also look for out of the way lvl 4 mission stations, there are a few out there with a good ~50 people in system at a time alot with few traders and so many areas are available to exploit.
Selling in hubs with avid 0.01iskers is good if you aim to make low margin but make up for it turning your inventry over quickly. If you havent got the time to trade that way look for oppertunities that make you 50-100% profit but takes longer from purchase to sale.
ie you can sell 10MN afterburner II's in Jita. buy 3mil/sell ~3.3mil. which is profitable and if you can stay top in buy and sell and flip 50 in a day you'll be making about 8-9 million per day. but you will need to be at the PC for most of it to keep your orders moving.
Alternatively you can buy 50 in Jita move them to a lvl 3 mission station and sell at 5-6mil an item and usually sell a few items a day. so you can make just as much without the need to babysit as much.
Find 20 other items that lvl 3 mission runners need find 4 other lvl 3 stations. Set a few buy orders in jita on a sunday wait. set contracts or get a freighter to move to your sales location and you can soon have as much volume as you could manage in Jita 0.01isking with only needing to log in once a week
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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.30 13:15:00 -
[14]
Well, another day another update. I just did the math and it seems that I have made 100 million since I started on the 23rd. So in one week I made 100 mil off of 90 million. So I am happy with this. I honestly thought it was a lot less but it adds up in such small amounts it is hard to notice. However I am a golem wielding mission runner so that isn't much to me. But trading is definately worth it for anyone who doesn't mission. Still I will continue on and try to find my niche.
I am seriously considering leaving small ticket items alone. With the amount of effort it requires to update the .01 iskers it really isn't worth my time for 2 mil every 3 days. I am starting to identify the high ticket items and get into those that can make me 2-4 million per unit.
Last night I took my alt around the empires to look at the non mission/trade hubs. I found that these were the 3'rd level mission hubs. And to be honest it didn't seem worth my time. Sure there were a few items that I could buy and markup by a lot, but they were being sold in such LOW quantity that it really didn't seem worth it. 2-3 items a day being sold AND there was 2-3 people competing on the prices already. I think I might have identified a secondary LvL 4 mission hub and will check that out tonight. I am hopeful.
I have identified a few things worth hauling that will give a 10% profit and a decent turnover. My qualms about it are that I would have to cart 1 Billion in merchandise to make 100mil. This would take about an hour a night of hauling but it could be done safely with constant warp to zero. Still debating on whether I want to do this.
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TraderTheHut
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Posted - 2009.04.30 16:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fzhal
Well, another day another update. I just did the math and it seems that I have made 100 million since I started on the 23rd. So in one week I made 100 mil off of 90 million. So I am happy with this. I honestly thought it was a lot less but it adds up in such small amounts it is hard to notice. However I am a golem wielding mission runner so that isn't much to me. But trading is definately worth it for anyone who doesn't mission. Still I will continue on and try to find my niche.
I am seriously considering leaving small ticket items alone. With the amount of effort it requires to update the .01 iskers it really isn't worth my time for 2 mil every 3 days. I am starting to identify the high ticket items and get into those that can make me 2-4 million per unit.
Last night I took my alt around the empires to look at the non mission/trade hubs. I found that these were the 3'rd level mission hubs. And to be honest it didn't seem worth my time. Sure there were a few items that I could buy and markup by a lot, but they were being sold in such LOW quantity that it really didn't seem worth it. 2-3 items a day being sold AND there was 2-3 people competing on the prices already. I think I might have identified a secondary LvL 4 mission hub and will check that out tonight. I am hopeful.
I have identified a few things worth hauling that will give a 10% profit and a decent turnover. My qualms about it are that I would have to cart 1 Billion in merchandise to make 100mil. This would take about an hour a night of hauling but it could be done safely with constant warp to zero. Still debating on whether I want to do this.
If you do... DO not auto pilot it... :)
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Potsnack
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Posted - 2009.04.30 20:27:00 -
[16]
Fzhal,
"Still I will continue on and try to find my niche."
That's the winning statement in my opinion. Try not to be blinkered as there are many ways to trade in Eve and you just need to find a type of trading that also suits your playstyle. You'll only find this out with hard work and testing the water.
I've never played the 0.1 isk game, I just don't have the patience or time to sit there babysitting the market screen 20 hours a day, but there are ways to exploit the 0.1-iskers and even make them become an unwilling partner in your trading strategy. They sometimes benefit from this, but you benefit a whole lot more :-)
Look again at the message from Midas - he's given you some golden information there. There are many many more ways to be a trader in Eve - you just have to try and think outside of the norm. It's not easy, nothing in Eve is, but if you keep looking you will eventually stumble upon opportunities that suits your playstyle that others have missed.
It doesn't happen overnight unless you are very lucky. Keep looking, keep testing, keep "learning" and you'll eventually find what works for you. Then you can sit back and relax, but you won't of course, because by then you'll be hooked and looking for the next "opportunity".
Good luck and have fun - if it's not fun, what's the point eh?
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.05.01 00:01:00 -
[17]
if you are a mission runner, one small tip:
train the daytrading skill, which allows you to modify your orders (buy & sell) remotely (level 4 is 20 jumps, limited to the region of course).
If you run missions in the same region, you can easily browse the market and adjust your orders at the same time ;-)
(and once you got used to it, there is a ton of other trading skills for remote trading)
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Grozen
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.05.01 11:09:00 -
[18]
Until you've started manipulation you've not seen the full beaty of the eve market, also if you wanna be profitable be ready for 0.01 war with dozens of market orders.If an item yields you 5m per 10min you'd want to make 2-3 market orders to fight for it.
knowledge is power |
Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grozen
Until you've started manipulation you've not seen the full beaty of the eve market, also if you wanna be profitable be ready for 0.01 war with dozens of market orders.If an item yields you 5m per 10min you'd want to make 2-3 market orders to fight for it.
Please forgive my ignorance but what is the benefit of having more than one market order for the same item?
I have a new tip for all the new traders out there. You don't have to be the top dog in the trading windows. There is always going to be some mission runner who puts a few items up at a low price, just to get rid of them fast for a few extra ISK. Look at the average turnover rate in the graph. If you think the number is high enough then just set your preferred price. Those few modules will sell quickly and then you'll be the next one on the list to be bought from. This little tidbit has saved me tens of millions in just a week.
Yeah last night I started on a few trade skills and am working towards being able to modify orders while missioning.
It is amazing that people in the mission hub I'm at are putting out buy orders that are higher than the selling price in Jita a few jumps away. I guess because they are thinking they will sell them for the mission hub's elevated prices. But still it is odd because not many units are sold at those prices.
So how do you do the long term thing without .01 isking? Just set a large buy order where you will make 5%-10% and let it sit there? Then you just just make a lot of them all over and wait?
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fzhal
Please forgive my ignorance but what is the benefit of having more than one market order for the same item?
Was elaborated on in the sticky thread, so instead of repeating here I'll leave you with a quote by Sun Tzu
"The control of a large force is the same principle as the control of a few men. But in either case, using both direct fighting and indirect methods are needed to secure victory. Deceiving the enemy is part of using your energy with indirect methods. Proper use of energy results in increased momentum toward victory."
obviously underlining the parts for you to muse on. |
Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.19 15:22:00 -
[21]
UPDATE:
So it has been about 3 weeks since I began my journey into the underbelly of the Meta 4 market. Overall it has been just OK. I have an alt at a different location because I was beginning to run out of meta 4 modules to invest in. I think I may send my other alt to do the same thing.
At the moment I'm investing about 300-450 million per character and making about 20-30 million each day per character. So I guess that would be a little less than 10%. To get this I am required to update all my orders at least 3 times per day. Before I leave for work in the morning, when I get home, and before I go to bed at night.
My thoughts currently are that this isn't the market for me. I'm making money, but not enough. I need to find a market that allows me to invest 1 billion, update 3 times daily, and still make 4% proffit or more. At this point I am thinking of just selling everything off and just going down the market list, excluding meta 4's and likely ship modules. I tried buying and selling ships but that turned out to be a dead market. Maybe I'll try going down the market groups one week at a time. I might even try minerals and implants. I'm not affraid to lose money learning, but I don't think that will happen as I am the careful type.
Despite this I am unsatisfied because I have about 650 million sitting around doing nothing at the moment. I'm wary of getting into the mineral market because I don't know much about it. I'm also wary of carting around large amounts of ISK so I'm not sure about Implants either.
So apparrently I haven't found my niche yet, but I have no doubt I will.
Overall I have learned a bit from my 3 weeks so far. But I am ready to move on to greener pastures.
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skeljita
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Posted - 2009.05.19 16:07:00 -
[22]
Edited by: skeljita on 19/05/2009 16:08:13
mineral market is easy to make money on, however the profit margin is not very good if you are just trading in station. The profit lies in buying cheap and transporting it somewhere else. Of course the risk increases greatly if you have to travel through .4 or lower and not worth it IMO. Station trading is easy and you cant be podded but as i stated above its less earnings. You need to be able to diversify yourself from just minerals so you can be profiting on other items besides just one market. Its hard to say what that may be because it will change from day to day or hour to hour. You just need to get comfortable trading and you will learn from there very quickly especially when you lose your first few hundred million from an oversight or not enough research.
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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:19:00 -
[23]
Hmm, I just thought about my market problems with the people that undercut my sell orders.
I realize I can't control the amount of modules that mission runners sell. But I can control the number of modules available for purchase by the mission runners. Now I'm just brainstorming here but it isn't a new idea. Dangerous indeed though.
Sellers can only undercut my sell orders if they have the stock to sell. If I were to buy all of thier modules then I could relist them much higher to make up the cost. Now this would work well if I could sell the marked up items before someone lists new modules at a lower price.
Then if I wanted to deter the .01 iskers I could set a "bait" sell order a good bit lower. They undercut me by .01 isk and I buy off the modules that they have sold at my lowball "bait" price.
Now to me this only seems viable in the short term in a very specific situation. A situation where the demand is greater than the supply. Otherwise the undercutters will overwhelm your orders because there is too much stock incoming. I think this strategy could especially work out in 0.0. . . Hmmm.
Please let me know if I'm talking crazy.
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skeljita
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:25:00 -
[24]
Its possible to control the market with enough money however i doubt you would have enough money to control the market of jita or a major trade hub.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Fzhal
Well I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to make money as a part time trader. It seems that I get .01 ISK'd very frequently. The only time my orders actually work is between my updates and when the others 1-Up me. And I'm not even in Jita.
This is fairly normal. Don't let it discourage you. A lot of people have an incredible aversion to being '.01'ed' and take it as a personal insult. .01 is the default order increment size.
It's not. Don't take it that way. .01'ing is a way for multiple traders to share the same market without significantly affecting the profit each of them is making.
You can be .01'ed every 5 minutes on the dot in jita and still rake in hundreds of millions a day. Getting .01'd is not bad in and of itself.
Basically your orders will be trumped at some point. Don't let it upset you. I'm usually shocked when I check back in the next day and see that my orders haven't been superseded. Typically I expect them to be superseded at some point in the day and then I bring them back on top later on. Learn how to do the math to figure out how long after your order was updated/placed that the other guys .01 came long.
If it was something like 9 hours later, you're fine. You had a big window during which your order was on top. If it was about 11 minutes later, the vast majority of the time his order was on top so you'll be getting a miniscule amount of the volume. Presuming you don't have the time to babysit your orders and .01 isk him back, you can either try to drive them out of the market, or just take your isk, and go elsewhere. The second solution typically seems more profitable to me. Certain items just attract lots and lots of people who constantly update their orders. Other items, not so much. If your skills aren't hot, you probably won't be able to oust someone in a margin war where you drive the profits down to a level they aren't willing to accept.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.19 22:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Fzhal
Hmm, I just thought about my market problems with the people that undercut my sell orders.
I realize I can't control the amount of modules that mission runners sell. But I can control the number of modules available for purchase by the mission runners. Now I'm just brainstorming here but it isn't a new idea. Dangerous indeed though.
Sellers can only undercut my sell orders if they have the stock to sell. If I were to buy all of thier modules then I could relist them much higher to make up the cost. Now this would work well if I could sell the marked up items before someone lists new modules at a lower price.
Then if I wanted to deter the .01 iskers I could set a "bait" sell order a good bit lower. They undercut me by .01 isk and I buy off the modules that they have sold at my lowball "bait" price.
Now to me this only seems viable in the short term in a very specific situation. A situation where the demand is greater than the supply. Otherwise the undercutters will overwhelm your orders because there is too much stock incoming. I think this strategy could especially work out in 0.0. . . Hmmm.
Please let me know if I'm talking crazy.
It's not crazy talk at all. Just remember to work the averages in your favor, and that you can be both a buyer and a seller.
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Rudy Gnarl
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Posted - 2009.05.20 20:31:00 -
[27]
Sounds like you are doing really good. In the few weeks you have been trading you have made some really good observations. Here is a post I wrote last week Slow-Sell System I don't know if this post will help but there might be some things in there that could help you flush out your niche. Sounds like you are pretty set on Meta 4, though. I tend to stick with Meta 3 and 2, as there is a lot less competition and I can leave orders up without adjusting them much. I do some trading in Tech II when I have time to bust my ass and hawk my orders.
The best of luck to you - eventually I plan to get involved in some higher level trading so I will stay posted as to your success and methods.
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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Rudy Gnarl
Sounds like you are doing really good. In the few weeks you have been trading you have made some really good observations. Here is a post I wrote last week Slow-Sell System I don't know if this post will help but there might be some things in there that could help you flush out your niche. Sounds like you are pretty set on Meta 4, though. I tend to stick with Meta 3 and 2, as there is a lot less competition and I can leave orders up without adjusting them much. I do some trading in Tech II when I have time to bust my ass and hawk my orders.
The best of luck to you - eventually I plan to get involved in some higher level trading so I will stay posted as to your success and methods.
That was a good read. I've been thinking about doing the slow sell too. This is a great resource and gives me the confidence to give it a try.
I worry about meta 2-3 items because I have no idea of how many consumers purchase these as opposed to just sell them to be recycled. My recycling is nonexistent so I don't want to lose my shirt on that venture.
Is there anywhere that I can find recycle equivalents in a remotely easy to use format?
Also as an aside I can now say that I am not a lemming and have likely ****ed off another trader. The item normally was bought for 900k and sold for 1.8m. Apparently someone wanted me out of the market and set a buy order for 100 units at 1.5 million. As soon as I saw this I left my 900k buy order alone. It served as a reminder to check and see if the guy had dropped his high buy order. After 5 days, including a weekend, he still hadn't dropped it. Not only that, but he was also cornering the market and raising sell prices up to 2.3m.
Then I decided to do something about it. Went to a couple other regions and set buy orders at 700k to get some stock. In two days I had enough. Gathering from all the stations took longer than I liked, but luckily I had the spare time that day. Back in the hub I set my sell orders for 2m, then 1.8 and finally 1.4 the next day. My stock was enough to last a week. The trader soon after dropped his 1.5m buy order down to 900k and we started the .01 isk game again. He didn't lose much money but at least he was put in his place.
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Rudy Gnarl
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Posted - 2009.05.21 17:10:00 -
[29]
Glad it was helpful. For the Meta 3 and 2 items I think about what people will most likely use, I find that weapon systems are a good place to give it a go since anyone doing any kind of killing is going to need weapons and a lot of folks don't want to dish out the millions of isk for the primo systems.
Now I do have large stocks of some of these items simply lying around, many of it scattered over different regions as I have lately been too lazy and too busy (in rl) to go scoop them up . . . BUT, and this is a big but, I buy many of these items for about 1000% less than what I sell them for, yes a mark up of about 1000%. This means I really don't care if a few hundred thousand of my isk is floundering out in the form of a few hundred modules when I have all ready made my isk back 1000% fold on the ones I did round up.
When I first thought about getting into the market is when I saw Compulsive Multi-spectrum ECM buy orders in Lonetrek for 70k and sell orders in Amarr for 700k. I did a double take and knew right away that I was in for being a trader if there was opportunities like that. Now the sell orders in Amarr didn't stay at 700k, but I made some good loot my first few weeks as a trader and I haven't looked back since.
I have bought up a few modules that in hind sight I should have never gotten near and I am still selling off lots of them slowly now. But again I bought them for dirt cheap and I am making isk slowly but surely. This kind of trading has very little to no risk at all. I mean if I really wanted too I could buy up some of these modules in outlying regions and dump them in Jita for much smaller profits - or I could simply dump my extra supply in Jita if I wanted to purge myself of these modules.
Some of the perks of the system though is the willingness of people to pay for the convenience of not having to leave their station or their system. Truthfully I am surprised at the prices people will accept in off-hub systems for goods that only 2-4 jumps away sell for half to three times cheaper - yes three times cheaper. Find your niche and play it well.
Good luck! 
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Fzhal
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.28 14:05:00 -
[30]
Well it has been a month since I began my market journey. Let me tell you how I've done.
I've Done Great!
My main character started on the 27th of last month with 600mil invested. 10 days later I had made 350mil profit. This profit was given to an alt to operate in a trade hub on the 8th, not jita. In 20 days my alt made 348mil off of that. On the 24th my main had made another 350mil and gave it to the other alt, another non-jita hub. Today, four days later, that alt has profitted 64 million.
Now for my profit after a month. 1.3 Billion
Remember that I didn't have alts reselling the whole month. If I were to extrapolate what I'll make next month doing the same thing. 1.85-2.0 Billion
Now lets put that into play hours. I spent about 4 hours online updating orders for the month. If that were put into Level 4 mission terms. At 20mil an hour it would take 100 hours of gameplay to equal 2 Billion ISK.
Now I'm not going to tell you my secrets because. . . well you've already read them in this forum. Just take an hour or more and pour through the market tabs. Take notes in a spreadsheet of the more profitable modules. Look mostly at the graph tab and not the current sales tab. Make sure to include these easy things: average daily low price, avg high price, avg movement per day. THEN add the average sell price in Jita, which is your base comparison.
The reason I add the Jita prices is because I am a cautious investor. I like to have a fallback plan. Prices can be inflated by other players and you need to know when to stop buying. Plus if you accumulate a stockpile you can easily take it to jita and make some money off of it.
Sometimes others will try to scare you out of the market for an item by making prices so low they make barely any profit. The best thing to do here is LAUGH. Be patient. Leave an order there so you know to check on that item. The price will go back to normal within 1-2 weeks.
During that time you have 2 choices.
A) If you can find a large quantity for that item elsewhere at a slightly lower price, get them. Then sell some to the buyer and put a large quantity on the market for lower. You can figure out what this means for the other guy.
B) Just wait. Come back later.
Just a few days ago I noticed I had too much money sitting in my bank so I decided to give the "Slow Sell" thing a chance. I found some meta 3-4 items and set large quantity buy prices region wide for 10% of the sell price in a remote region. I did this 5 days ago and so far only about 1-2% of the orders have been filled. I think I might update them every week or so and see what happens. Correct me if I'm wrong, but once I've bought only 10-15% of those orders, the rest will be profit?
Well, that has bee another long rambling. I am prone to them. Hopefully there are some gems in there for new people. That is what I was going for.
Thanks for reading.
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