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Gay O'rly	Posted - 2009.05.03 12:50:00 - [31] Edited by: Gay O''rly on 03/05/2009 12:51:04 Originally by: Fon Revedhort Originally by: Gay O'rly Edited by: Gay O''rly on 03/05/2009 12:34:24 You can easily run a large booster with a single cap recharger II in the mids and a PDU in a low for as long as it's ever needed, unless you go aggro crazy. and the point in using cap recharger and PDU with the Large booster when you can run Cap Booster and XL SB instead is?.. Preference and less micromanagement/carrying of charges/isk spent on charges, unless you disagree that a LSB, especially pith variety, is plenty enough tank for this ship? You, after all, are the one insinuating that a fit without a cap booster is automatically subpar Originally by: Fon Revedhort Any decent Nightmare pilot actually. Not really a match to even a semi-decent cap-injected one.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.03 16:44:00 - [32] Edited by: Kzintee on 03/05/2009 16:45:35 Originally by: Gay O'rly Edited by: Gay O''rly on 03/05/2009 12:51:04 Originally by: Fon Revedhort Originally by: Gay O'rly Edited by: Gay O''rly on 03/05/2009 12:34:24 You can easily run a large booster with a single cap recharger II in the mids and a PDU in a low for as long as it's ever needed, unless you go aggro crazy. and the point in using cap recharger and PDU with the Large booster when you can run Cap Booster and XL SB instead is?.. Preference and less micromanagement/carrying of charges/isk spent on charges, unless you disagree that a LSB, especially pith variety, is plenty enough tank for this ship? You, after all, are the one insinuating that a fit without a cap booster is automatically subpar Originally by: Fon Revedhort Any decent Nightmare pilot actually. Not really a match to even a semi-decent cap-injected one. Ahem, the point here is that you are wasting valuable slots that could be dedicated to gank by setting up a perma-ish tank. Considering that in majority of missions you don't even need to run XLSB. Why have a PDS in the low when you could put a TE instead, increasing your optimal and tracking? Seriously...a single TE gives you 5km more optimal which gives you more DPS at any range above 33km which is your optimal with Tachs right now. You understand why that is, right? Edit: Re: 800 charges. Missioning in Amarr space you should be self-supplied anyway. I bring in a load full every once in a while from Damsel or EA.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.03 16:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Kzintee on 03/05/2009 16:56:22 Originally by: Ranvaldy This is the Nightmare im using atm without any problems vs sanshas/bloods ofc [Nightmare, Tachs] Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Amarr Navy Large EMP Smartbomb Amarr Navy Large EMP Smartbomb Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I AE bonus room will eat you alive. You have no way to tank longterm damage without turning off your guns. Not to mention the fact that you can't omnitank with just 3 hardener slots. Your sustained DPS and tank is 2 minutes at which point you are cap-dry and dead in the water. Your guns eat cap (nothing you can really do about that unless you spend 300mil on AN ones) faster. Smarts are just asking you to get Concorded. Since you have no AB just put a tractor beam there to save yourself time you slowboat to that can 20km away. Let drones take care of frigs.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.03 19:57:00 - [34] Originally by: Kzintee Ahem, the point here is that you are wasting valuable slots that could be dedicated to gank by setting up a perma-ish tank. Considering that in majority of missions you don't even need to run XLSB. There is a very good reason you want an xl booster on your nightmare and I do believe I already touched on it. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Splinter 07	Posted - 2009.05.04 06:02:00 - [35] Guys dose the shield recharge faster when it reaches a certain lvl ? for example it will charger faster at 50% than it would at 80%
Splinter 07	Posted - 2009.05.04 06:08:00 - [36] Sorr yfor the second post forgot to put this in, L: 3x amarr navy HS 2x Domination tracking enhancer M: DG X-L shield booster 4x Gist A type mission spec hardeners 1x caldari navy invul field 1x caldari navy shield boost amp. H: 4x amarr navy tachs. 1x salvager 1x TB what do you guys think? pls be constructive.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.04 06:33:00 - [37] Shields get peak recharge at around 1/3 left but on a bs the recharge is terribly low even on a full passive fit. As far as your nightmare setup it looks just dandy so pulse the booster when shields get low and kill em all with the tachs and drones. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Mystafyre Caldari Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.05.04 06:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega 4x rat specific hardeners gives better tank than 2x + 1 invuln + 1 boost amp. Also a tracking enhancer gives a better real dps increase than fourth heat sink. Other than that good standard nightmare fit. This.
Splinter 07	Posted - 2009.05.04 08:27:00 - [39] so when do i turn on my shield booster? and do i boost it to 100%? Soz for all these shield questions im an armor tanker...
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.05.04 09:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Splinter 07 Sorr yfor the second post forgot to put this in, L: 3x amarr navy HS 2x Domination tracking enhancer M: DG X-L shield booster 4x Gist A type mission spec hardeners 1x caldari navy invul field 1x caldari navy shield boost amp. H: 4x amarr navy tachs. 1x salvager 1x TB what do you guys think? pls be constructive. You are going to have a logistics ship transfering cap to you? Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.04 10:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Washell Olivaw You are going to have a logistics ship transfering cap to you? It should be cap stable up until he starts the xl booster then he will have about 1~2 minutes of cap. Now that might not sound like much but as all he will need to do is run the booster for 10~20 seconds to get back to full shields its more than plenty. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Ranvaldy Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.04 10:35:00 - [42] Edited by: Ranvaldy on 04/05/2009 10:41:16 Edited by: Ranvaldy on 04/05/2009 10:37:04 Edited by: Ranvaldy on 04/05/2009 10:35:50 Originally by: Kzintee Edited by: Kzintee on 03/05/2009 16:56:22 Originally by: Ranvaldy This is the Nightmare im using atm without any problems vs sanshas/bloods ofc [Nightmare, Tachs] Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Amarr Navy Large EMP Smartbomb Amarr Navy Large EMP Smartbomb Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I AE bonus room will eat you alive. You have no way to tank longterm damage without turning off your guns. Not to mention the fact that you can't omnitank with just 3 hardener slots. Your sustained DPS and tank is 2 minutes at which point you are cap-dry and dead in the water. Your guns eat cap (nothing you can really do about that unless you spend 300mil on AN ones) faster. Smarts are just asking you to get Concorded. Since you have no AB just put a tractor beam there to save yourself time you slowboat to that can 20km away. Let drones take care of frigs. Roflmao im in lowsec for a long time so no i wont get concorded :D Well i forgot to mention also that i dont do AE because its freaking NOT time effecient mission.U can do like 2 blockades in the time of 1 AE and u see 2 blockades>1 AE My average blockade runs are 15-18 mins recons are around 10-14 mins damsel is als around 15 mins. Just do Blockade/Recon 1of3/Damsel/Attack of the Drones/Pirate Invasion cuz these are the missions worthwhile doing. I have 3 quality 20 agents tho. Ye btw i was thinking swapping one smart for a tractor beam for Damsel Carebearing+being a pirate is fun actually.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.04 15:36:00 - [43] Originally by: Splinter 07 so when do i turn on my shield booster? and do i boost it to 100%? Soz for all these shield questions im an armor tanker... Peak shield recharge is somewhere like 27% shield. You can turn on your SB whenever the hell you'd like. Try to plan ahead. You know what enemies you have left, so boost accordingly. The point is NOT to finish the mission with 100% shields, the point is to finish the mission without armor damage (sorta...or to finish the mission alive). The way I do things: Fly in, start shooting. Keep the hardeners running. When shields get down to 20%, look at what's left. If I know I'll lose shields, boost a couple cycles. Keep shooting. If not done yet and shields falling still, turn on cap injector and boost. Eventually everything dies.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.04 15:39:00 - [44] Originally by: Ranvaldy Roflmao im in lowsec for a long time so no i wont get concorded :D Well i forgot to mention also that i dont do AE because its freaking NOT time effecient mission.U can do like 2 blockades in the time of 1 AE and u see 2 blockades>1 AE My average blockade runs are 15-18 mins recons are around 10-14 mins damsel is als around 15 mins. Just do Blockade/Recon 1of3/Damsel/Attack of the Drones/Pirate Invasion cuz these are the missions worthwhile doing. I have 3 quality 20 agents tho. Ye btw i was thinking swapping one smart for a tractor beam for Damsel Carebearing+being a pirate is fun actually. In that case you found a setup that works for you. Are you running for Ministry of war? They got that 0.1/0.05 station (forgot the name) with 3 4x20 agents out near Delve.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.05.04 16:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Kzintee Ahem, the point here is that you are wasting valuable slots that could be dedicated to gank by setting up a perma-ish tank. Considering that in majority of missions you don't even need to run XLSB. There is a very good reason you want an xl booster on your nightmare and I do believe I already touched on it. x-type xl boosters are really the best defense, especially without damage controls and cap boosters
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.05.04 16:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Kzintee Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton because cap boosters take up a lot of cargo space. and it gets annoying to micro manage it. and they cost like 3k each and yes the damage rig only adds like 10 damage, as it is stacking nerfed with the Heat sinks. ah, well I like the undersized complex boosters for simplicity. I'm not salvaging so I dont care about cargo space. Truth of the matter is...NM is such a powerhouse that most of the time XLSB isn't needed, cap booster is needed even less. But it's there as a precaution. Not like I can fit much else in its place. yea, I really don't care about my cargo space anyways, I'm just lazy/forgetful. will either end up running the cap injector all 5 shots when not needed, and forget to refill on boosters. although to cut down on cap recharge mods the injector can be lovely.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.05.04 19:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Kzintee Ahem, the point here is that you are wasting valuable slots that could be dedicated to gank by setting up a perma-ish tank. Considering that in majority of missions you don't even need to run XLSB. There is a very good reason you want an xl booster on your nightmare and I do believe I already touched on it. x-type xl boosters are really the best defense, especially without damage controls and cap boosters Let me add that without a cap booster that xl setup is going to be horribly vulnerable to a nos gank so that is why I recommend both an xl and a heavy cap booster. I don't use one on my setup because when its time to break out the nightmare I have at least one scout if not moar to clear the path ahead. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.04 22:38:00 - [48] Here's an alternative setup I've been trying to make work in EFT. What you all think? Low: 3x AN HS 2x TE Mid: 1x Photon 1x Thermal 1x Invuln 1x XLSB 1x SBA 1x HCB w/800s 1x <<<<< Utility slot. Web/TC/TP/AB Hi: 4x AN Tach Rigs: 1x Anti-EM 2x CCC2 In Kin/Therm variant this setup is 80% kin, 73.4% therm resists. In EM/T variant it's 72.4% EM, 73% Therm resists. Resists are a little low for my liking but this allows a utility slot. Also...4th HS or 2nd TE? Would a TC work in the util slot? I get a 45km optimal and 0.03 tracking with TEx2 and TC (unscripted). This's becoming an exercise in "Can we squeeze one last drop of DPS out of this guy?" although I do believe that having AN multifreq with a 45km optimal is pretty awesome.
Jennz	Posted - 2009.05.04 23:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Kzintee Here's an alternative setup I've been trying to make work in EFT. What you all think? Low: 3x AN HS 2x TE Mid: 1x Photon 1x Thermal 1x Invuln 1x XLSB 1x SBA 1x HCB w/800s 1x <<<<< Utility slot. Web/TC/TP/AB Hi: 4x AN Tach Rigs: 1x Anti-EM 2x CCC2 In Kin/Therm variant this setup is 80% kin, 73.4% therm resists. In EM/T variant it's 72.4% EM, 73% Therm resists. Resists are a little low for my liking but this allows a utility slot. Also...4th HS or 2nd TE? Would a TC work in the util slot? I get a 45km optimal and 0.03 tracking with TEx2 and TC (unscripted). This's becoming an exercise in "Can we squeeze one last drop of DPS out of this guy?" although I do believe that having AN multifreq with a 45km optimal is pretty awesome. Looks like a good setup. I'm a bit puzzled as to why you'd spend 500m on 2 T2 CCC rigs and use (presumably) a T2 tank, you should spring for faction stuff for resists imo, especially as you have a HCB as a fallback option. As for utility, I'd choose an AB. Web/TP is pointless imo (anything close enough for you not to be able to shoot with 2xTEs will have to be dispatched by drones), another TC will be stacking nerfed with the TEs. An AB on the other hand will get you through missions quicker, the Nightmare 117.5m/s speed is painful.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.04 23:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Jennz Looks like a good setup. I'm a bit puzzled as to why you'd spend 500m on 2 T2 CCC rigs and use (presumably) a T2 tank, you should spring for faction stuff for resists imo, especially as you have a HCB as a fallback option. As for utility, I'd choose an AB. Web/TP is pointless imo (anything close enough for you not to be able to shoot with 2xTEs will have to be dispatched by drones), another TC will be stacking nerfed with the TEs. An AB on the other hand will get you through missions quicker, the Nightmare 117.5m/s speed is painful. I'm shooting for a t2 tank first then move it to faction/complex. This way people with ISK excess and without one can use it. This isn't a frigate that requires complex gear to fit because you're 0.5PG short. TBQH, all these discussions also forget the other component of the tank, being the full crystal set. Slap those on and you don't need XLSB anymore. But...I like my +5 implants.
Jennz	Posted - 2009.05.05 01:02:00 - [51] A HG Crystal set will make a massive difference though. Personally it's significant enough that I don't mind having to jump around different clones to use either my +5 set, or the Crystal (+3) set.
Splinter 07	Posted - 2009.05.05 06:41:00 - [52] Is it worth getting a setup that requires one fit for all? so you dont have to change hardeners all the time? If so can anyone pls post a good ALL mission setup... Just so i can compare how much DPS and VOLLEY dmg are you guys getting?
Giannamichaels	Posted - 2009.05.05 08:43:00 - [53] Edited by: Giannamichaels on 05/05/2009 08:43:14 Changing hardeners only takes a few seconds, its the best way and makes you tank better. There's being lazy but surely nobody is THAT lazy?
Splinter 07	Posted - 2009.05.05 10:15:00 - [54] Just makes things easyer... and it could save isk...
Sanzorz Amarr Mark Of Chaos	Posted - 2009.05.05 10:41:00 - [55] It's a matter of taste on how you wanna fit a Nightmare. Personally I went for permatank and gank. High: Amarr Navy Tachs, 2 tractors Med: 1 Gist B XL booster, 3 hardeners, 2 cap rechargers and 1 SS TC with tracking script. Low: 3 Navy HS, 1 t2 PDU and 1 t2 Cap Flux. 3x CCC rigs. Perma tank allows for some easy slacking, mass aggro in most stages to round up mobs for salvage ship and guns one shot more or less anything below battleship size. Afterburner is not required if you're doing missions in Amarr space. I only recall 2 missions where it would be handy and that's about it. Cap boosters are a poor mans option, as Gist boosters are insanely expensive these days. I'm sure they work well, but I hate being dependant on a mod with charges for cap. Along with that this ship turns out pretty badass with the usual +% damage, rof and tracking implants.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:05:00 - [56] Originally by: Splinter 07 Is it worth getting a setup that requires one fit for all? so you dont have to change hardeners all the time? If so can anyone pls post a good ALL mission setup... Just so i can compare how much DPS and VOLLEY dmg are you guys getting? Of the top of my head since I dont have EFT at work :) The setup I run now is 4x HS, 1 TE 2x hardener, 2x hardener, 1 XLSB, 1 SBA, 1 HCB Where 4 hardeners are mission specific. This setup gives me high-70 to mid-80 resists (EM/T vs K/T) For EA5 I switch the tank to 1x Photon, 3x Invuln. This gives me 74-75ish EM, 68-69 T (lowest damage in EA5) and high 70s for K/Exp. As you can see, switching the tank does not affect my weapons at all. In fact, with this setup I have time to nuke the gate before the last 2 waves arrive...EA5 really needs to be sped up for NM pilots. 2-3 minute breaks between waves are boring Without drones, 993 DPS with 4x AN HS and AN Tachs at 38km optimal with AN Multi, with surg strike at 4 and 2 5% damage implants. Volley is something like 6800... What I really want to do is try to extend the optimal further and see the DPS curve. Experimental setup I posted extends the optimal to 45km while doing 931DPS with better tracking vs 993 DPS at 38km optimal (with worse tracking).
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:08:00 - [57] Originally by: Splinter 07 Just makes things easyer... and it could save isk... You either have to go complex/faction or reduce the gank just so you can have omnitank. Not exactly sure you'll save ISK either way.
Jennz	Posted - 2009.05.05 19:29:00 - [58] Edited by: Jennz on 05/05/2009 19:30:11 I'd argue that if you're not using at least faction for most stuff on a Nightmare then you're just wasting it and should get an Navy Apoc instead. It's a billion ISK ship, it deserves better than throwaway T2 equipment. You're just as likely to get ganked in it irrespective of what you've fitted as people will assume you're deadspace fitted anyway (since anyone with sense would), so you might as well make it worthwhile. Nightmare doesn't (shouldn't) need to tank much, and definitely not perma-tank (clue: it's not a CNR). Gank is your tank. If you're not killing everything sub-BS before they get close enough to seriously hurt you you're doing it wrong.
Traderboz	Posted - 2009.05.05 19:44:00 - [59] Originally by: Jennz Edited by: Jennz on 05/05/2009 19:30:11 I'd argue that if you're not using at least faction for most stuff on a Nightmare then you're just wasting it and should get an Navy Apoc instead. It's a billion ISK ship, it deserves better than throwaway T2 equipment. You're just as likely to get ganked in it irrespective of what you've fitted as people will assume you're deadspace fitted anyway (since anyone with sense would), so you might as well make it worthwhile. Nightmare doesn't (shouldn't) need to tank much, and definitely not perma-tank (clue: it's not a CNR). Gank is your tank. If you're not killing everything sub-BS before they get close enough to seriously hurt you you're doing it wrong. I'd argue that's nonsense. The Nightmare is quite different from the NavyPoc. The Nightmare primarily uses Tachs, Navypoc uses pulses. The Nightmare shield tanks (more lows for damage mods), the Navypoc armor tanks. The Nightmare has both a damage bonus and a tracking bonus, the NavyPoc only has a range bonus. The Nightmare has 3 utility highs, the NavyPoc has 0. The two have very little in common other than they both use lasers, and there's no rule that says you have to drop a few billion ISK on a Nightmare. Now yes, the Nightmare is one of the best ships to "pimp out", but beyond some faction heat sinks, nothing is really required. T2 Tachyons suck a good bit of cap, but they also punch harder than faction Tachyons. Other than faction HS, nothing is going to be affecting your damage unless you're using faction TC's and the like. So while you CAN pimp your tank out and go crazy with Gist X-types (btw you all definitely should, and this has nothing to do with the fact I'm selling some atm ;p), it's not really going to speed up your mission running. In short, faction heatsinks are FTW, and there's a strong argument for using faction Tach's, but beyond that you're basically only investing cash in it to achieve a stronger and/or perma tank. T2 Tachyons are all you ever need and actually punch harder, so it's not essential to go with faction. You really don't need to throw tons of ISK at a Nightmare in order to get exceptional performance from it.
Kzintee Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.05 20:06:00 - [60] Originally by: Jennz Edited by: Jennz on 05/05/2009 19:30:11 I'd argue that if you're not using at least faction for most stuff on a Nightmare then you're just wasting it and should get an Navy Apoc instead. It's a billion ISK ship, it deserves better than throwaway T2 equipment. You're just as likely to get ganked in it irrespective of what you've fitted as people will assume you're deadspace fitted anyway (since anyone with sense would), so you might as well make it worthwhile. Nightmare doesn't (shouldn't) need to tank much, and definitely not perma-tank (clue: it's not a CNR). Gank is your tank. If you're not killing everything sub-BS before they get close enough to seriously hurt you you're doing it wrong. Why, are you a pirate looking to gank targets with expensive gear or do you earn ISK by selling complex gear? Fitting a ship shouldn't be about "keeping up with the Joneses"...if it aint broke, don't fix it. I'll use faction/complex gear IFF it provides suitable benefit beyond ease of fitting. For example, using CN Photon field is pointless to me right now over t2 field because I don't have fitting problems AND because the cap benefit isn't that great. No extra resists = fail in this case. Btw...using your logic I can make a similar statement that if you aren't gonna faction pimp your Navy Mega you should just get a Rokh instead. (Ok, fine, I know that they have diff skill requirements but the rest of analogy is sound: 3x price difference, same weapon system but different tank).

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