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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:31:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: McEivalley
I don't fly drakes with HAMs, period. I know some that do and some choose the option of 6 HAMLs over 7 in order to deal better dps and conserve soem ofthe aawesome passive tank of the drake, without paying the tribute of fitting grid mods in their stead. Then the damage they deal is terrifying compared to a heavies drake.
You assume too much sir, ...
6 HAMs deal about 520 dps with drones. 7 HMs deal about 510 dps with drones. 7 HAMs deal about 610 dps with drones.
Damn, I gotta say... that 10 DPS is terrifying.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:36:00 -
[32]
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE... proper HAMDrake fit. It fits 7 HAMs.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Lucas Edge
Caldari Infraction
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Lucas Edge So Tippia... What exactly is your point in all of this?
Read the line of arguments ù it should be pretty clear.
OP: I wonder about caldari missiles. Me: Missiles aren't "caldari". OP: I guess, but they're the weapon caldari use. Me: No, caldari use hybrids as well (and actually, quite a lot of drones).
Any other interpretations are your own projection and incorrect interpretations.
You still fail at bringing any real relevance to the original post but succeed at bringing the discussion to a point of utter uselessness.
Caldari use missiles more than any other race û so what? Yes they still use hybrids and even dronesà again, so what? What does that have to do with HAMs vs HML? What is the point in making this topic move towards the fact that caldari like every other race, has a second or even third usable weapon type? Does that somehow aid in the comparison of HAMs and HML? I think it is you that is mis-interpreting the original post. Should I just randomly tell someone who might be discussing downfalls of Arties to talk about ACs or missiles instead?
Get past that I said missiles are a Caldari weapon. First of all itÆs not all that untrue and secondly, they do use missiles more than other races especially in cruisers or battlecruisers so stop getting your panties in a bunch.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.05.04 18:26:00 -
[34]
Originally by: McEivalley A drake with HAMs is viable too, if you stick with only 6 launchers rather than the 7 available. Yeah, even if the number in the fitting window says you can it doesn't mean you have to use them for missiles. The best curse pilots I know have 0 missile launchers on their hi slots. I know of a lot of domi pilots without a single hybrid on their hi-s. The list goes on...
Sorry, but this is ****ing stupid. Not only is a Drake with only 6x launchers a comedy lossmail, but your analogy is completely wrong. The Curse and Dominix are DRONE ships, the fact that they have weapon hardpoints is meaningless. The correct analogy would be flying a Curse/Dominix with only 4x medium drones, which, like the 6x launcher Drake, would be a comedy lossmail.
As for the OP, yes, it's a problem, all of the Caldari cruiser/BC hulls have serious grid problems. They were apparently balanced around HML mission fits with no MWD, so even proper HML PvP fits have issues. Try fitting HAMs (which didn't even exist last time Caldari grid/CPU were balanced), and you're lucky if you can still fit any BCUs with all of your lows used up for RCU IIs. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.05.04 19:25:00 -
[35]
Not only are HAM more grid, they are about 20 more grid EACH. A nighthawk first off, don't barely have the grid to fully fit HM without having all max fitting skills. They already can't fit a war link making it's "command ship" title meaningless. Nighthawks bonuses don't fully effect HAM. A side note HAM are not effected by the skill "Missle Prescision" (same for torps and rockets).
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Zackaryel
Caldari Echolalia. Shangri-La.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 20:06:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Zackaryel on 04/05/2009 20:07:19 Torps are all but laughable tbh.
Before missile changes : "Oh lol a Raven !" After missile changes : Oh sh*t a Raven !"
I miss the cavalry raven though... 24-30 torps hitting within a second on your dual painted (tackled :D) target = priceless
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Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Judas Lonestar
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.05.04 20:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Lucas Edge Yeah I didn't mean to say that missiles are only for Caldari. I just meant that most caldari mid-level boats use missiles as the primary weapon.
Not really.
Turret-centric ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones. Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus. Onyx.
Exactly half of them use hybrids (including bonuses). The whole "Caldari = missiles" is a PvE misconception essentially based on the commonness of the Drake, the Nighthawk and the Raven.
That's cute. The only "gunships" you listed that anyone actually uses and puts guns on in pvp are ferox and eagle, and they are both outclassed by other races. A brutix or thorax (or a diemost god forbid) are much better blaster boats. A zealot or muninn makes a better sniper. The rokh is really the only caldari gunship that truly stands out.
Blaster Moa says RAWR and blasters you!
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:09:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Lucas Edge Yeah I didn't mean to say that missiles are only for Caldari. I just meant that most caldari mid-level boats use missiles as the primary weapon.
Not really.
Turret-centric ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones. Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus. Onyx.
Exactly half of them use hybrids (including bonuses). The whole "Caldari = missiles" is a PvE misconception essentially based on the commonness of the Drake, the Nighthawk and the Raven.
LOLz you listed you didnt put some of the Missle ships on your list. And you called the Blackbird "gun centric" which it isnt in practice - its ewar centric.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:11:00 -
[39]
He also missed some turret based ships.
If you want to use turrets, caldari got ships for that. Missiles are also fine for short range pvp, only for sniping they arent great. And that is just the area where caldari turret ships are best for. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:22:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ghoest LOLz you listed you didnt put some of the Missle ships on your list.
Such as? See if you can spot the common theme about the ones listed there and figure out why your proposed additions have no place…
Quote: And you called the Blackbird "gun centric" which it isnt in practice - its ewar centric.
True enough. It's actually cut from an old list to disprove some idiotic claim about Caldari not having any drone ships. The Blackbird has neither turret nor launcher bonuses and can fit just as many of both. That said, I see them far more often with turrets than with missiles (albeit small turrets to keep the drones away).
Originally by: Furb Killer He also missed some turret based ships.
Again, such as (with the same hint as above)? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:32:00 -
[41]
Edited by: KISOGOKU on 04/05/2009 21:35:01 Can you handle truth ? Reason is HAMs added to game later (nov or december 2006) with drake .CCP balanced HAMs around drake and show the middle finger to old caldari missile ships .They did not want to adjust PG/CPU for old ships .But iirc siege launchers have harder PG and cpu requirements than cruise lauchers
Originally by: Lucas Edge
HOWEVER, for some reason the HAM is harder to fit than the HML. When compared to ALL other races including Caldari small and large missiles (rockets, standards, torps, cruises) the HAM and HML have a reverse fitting requirement.
Thanks
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:34:00 -
[42]
Quote: Again, such as (with the same hint as above)?
My fault, i didnt read the post you quoted correctly. Those should indeed be all the ships for mid-level. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Lucas Edge So Tippia... What exactly is your point in all of this?
Read the line of arguments ù it should be pretty clear.
OP: I wonder about caldari missiles. Me: Missiles aren't "caldari". OP: I guess, but they're the weapon caldari use. Me: No, caldari use hybrids as well (and actually, quite a lot of drones).
Any other interpretations are your own projection and incorrect interpretations.
Arguing just to argue huh?
Caldari use missiles more often than any other race. When most people think of missiles they think of Caldari. The end.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.05.04 23:33:00 -
[44]
So a caldari ship can fi more easily for mid/semi-long range than other races. Nothing really wrong with this variation.
The problem is that pushing missiles out to extreme long range is difficult. There aren't many ways to increase range. That and the delayed dps makes them crappy for fleet sniping.
And being able to hit out to 90km in a very small gang isn't too useful because things taking damage at that range which aren't tackled will warp away. Since somebody has to go in and tackle anyway, if you're hiding behind a range tank doing kinda piddly dps you're being a ****.
If you could stop someone from warping at long range. missile boats would make sense. See how the caracal navy issues were flown in the alliance tournament. To bad there are no gms sitting around waiting to explode anydody who runs away from a caracal fleet all spaced 30-60km off each other.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.05 04:12:00 -
[45]
Ever seen a sniper hac gang? Or a sniper bs fleet? The problem isn't pushing missiles out to range. That's easy since they already have a high base range, and ships like ravens and cerbs have range bonuses. Hell a raven at bs5 with good support skills has 250km base range. It's just the travel time.
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Crossbowman
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Posted - 2009.05.05 09:49:00 -
[46]
Fitting a NH with HAM.
T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 T2 HAM cpu 37.5 PG 113.4 Warfare Link cpu 50 PG 200 T2 10MN MWD 50 CPU PG 165 other slots are unfitted
NH CPU total 325/693.75 NH PG total 1045.4/887.5
Same fit with HML NH CPU total 347.5/693.75 NH PG total 932/887.5
To fit a NH with HAM you need at least 2RCU and you still don't have any tank fitted on the ship for that you need minimum 3RCU or rigs.
HAM CPU 50 PG 126 HML CPU 55 PG 105
HAM should be something like this CPU 50 PG 115 or maybe 60 cpu and 110 PG.
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McEivalley
Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.05.05 10:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin
Sorry, but this is ****ing stupid. Not only is a Drake with only 6x launchers a comedy lossmail, but your analogy is completely wrong. The Curse and Dominix are DRONE ships, the fact that they have weapon hardpoints is meaningless. The correct analogy would be flying a Curse/Dominix with only 4x medium drones, which, like the 6x launcher Drake, would be a comedy lossmail.
That's your opinion. I didn't say anything about what the other two hi slots might include, nor do I mean to. I haven't said what the numbers are, but dps wise someone already showed that 6 HAMs > 7 HMLs when it comes to dps.
BTW, you should be sorry. You definitely made the wrong impression of someone who knows what he's talking about when you added demagogic prefixes like "XXXXing stupid" and "Comedy lossmail" while barging into an open door.
I reckon you have seen a lot of fits in your time, and you aspire to the best all-around fit. That's fine - I usually do the same. Still, a 6 HAMs drake is a viable fit if you want to maintain its uber tank and do as much dps (but on a very close range to very big targets ) as a HML drake.You know, some people don't have AWU 5... some fail reaching even 4.
And it is a good analogy for the domi as it has a bonus to hybrid damage, albeit being used heavily with drones. I can agree with you about the curse, though I still see people use missile launchers on two of the 5 hi-s in curses (and I urge them not to).
Insert clever remark where?? |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.05 10:43:00 -
[48]
No, a 6x HAM Drake is f***ing stupid.
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.05 10:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Blackbird and Falcon are ECM platforms... not real combat ships Osprey is a miner And there is a reason why the Moa and Ferox suck
Ok, let's clear the list up a bit thenà
Turret-centric ships Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones.
Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones.
Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Onyx.
Rook is an ECM boat, Onyx is just there to tackle, Basilisk is a logistics ship. Still 4 vs. 4, so still half, and now all the remaining turret ships have hybrid bonuses.
Rook does the same damage as a cerb when not using kinetics... I think that qualifies it as a missile boat, no?
My pod does the same damage as a cerb when not using anything.
What's the point of a gimped comparison? __________________________________________________________
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.05 10:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly My pod does the same damage as a cerb when not using anything.
What's the point of a gimped comparison?
Seeing as how there are numerous occasions when using kinetic missiles is a bad idea, how is that comparison gimped? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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McEivalley
Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.05.05 10:51:00 -
[51]
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Blackbird and Falcon are ECM platforms... not real combat ships Osprey is a miner And there is a reason why the Moa and Ferox suck
Ok, let's clear the list up a bit thenà
Turret-centric ships Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones.
Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones.
Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Onyx.
Rook is an ECM boat, Onyx is just there to tackle, Basilisk is a logistics ship. Still 4 vs. 4, so still half, and now all the remaining turret ships have hybrid bonuses.
Rook does the same damage as a cerb when not using kinetics... I think that qualifies it as a missile boat, no?
My pod does the same damage as a cerb when not using anything.
What's the point of a gimped comparison?
Go shoot kinetics, bonused and everything, on an Ishtar or a NH. We'll see who's laughing.
Insert clever remark where?? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.05 11:24:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gypsio III No, a 6x HAM Drake is f***ing stupid.
Agreed. More so since it very easy to maintain a good tank with all 7 launcher as well. My regualar Drake fit got the same ehp as a BS with 7 HAMS and 3 Damage mods.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Mystafyre
Caldari Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.05 11:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lucas Edge I'm a little confused about the roles of Caldari medium missiles...
For ALL guns and even smaller and larger missile types, the higher damage lower range weapons require less grid than lower damage higher range weapons. To me, this is because lower range weapons require the ship to get in the middle of the fight and within range of most other weapons so it needs more of a tank as well (hence the lower grid to leave room for a tank). High range weapons usually lack the need for a tank unless of course they are attacked by another high range weapon.
Arties require more grid than Autocannons Rails require more grid than Blasters Beams require more grid than Pulse lasers
The above are examples of the higher RANGE weapon requiring more grid than the higher damage weapon. The above is not only true for medium weapons but is also true for small and large.
Now consider the Caldari medium weapon for cruisers or battlecruisers û The Heavy Assault Missile Launcher and Heavy Missile Launcher. The HAM is short range high damage while the HML is long range lower damage. HOWEVER, for some reason the HAM is harder to fit than the HML. When compared to ALL other races including Caldari small and large missiles (rockets, standards, torps, cruises) the HAM and HML have a reverse fitting requirement.
In order for Caldari missile boats to fit a full rack of HAMs they need to practically sacrifice their entire tank if they fit Ballistic Control Systems in the lows. Of course we can fill the lows with 2 or 3 reactor control units but no other race needs to use fitting mods in order to fit their low range higher damage weapons. The HAM is the close range high damage weapon but canÆt really be used as such unless you know you wonÆt be shot at or are being remote repped.
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this? IÆm not trying to add yet another whine or balance thread but IÆm trying to understanding this a bit more.
Thanks
I choose heavies always, not as much DPS but much faster missiles and much longer range and easier to fit.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.05 11:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Zackaryel
Torps are all but laughable tbh.
Before missile changes : "Oh lol a Raven !" After missile changes : Oh sh*t a Raven !"
The QR missile changes had almost no effect on torps in practice. Torp damage against webbed BS, BCs and most cruisers didn't change.
I've read a bit more of this thread now. A 6-HAM Drake isn't f***ing stupid if you specifically need two utility slots free, although that sounds like a rather uncommon situation. But it is f***ing stupid if you're doing just because of PG issues.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.05.05 11:58:00 -
[55]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
Hi,
Projectile weapons like to have a word with you.
kthxbye
Standard missile launchers - the lowest dps of all weapon systems in game
You have to trade something for having the ability to always hit.
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Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lucas Edge I'm a little confused about the roles of Caldari medium missiles...
For ALL guns and even smaller and larger missile types, the higher damage lower range weapons require less grid than lower damage higher range weapons. To me, this is because lower range weapons require the ship to get in the middle of the fight and within range of most other weapons so it needs more of a tank as well (hence the lower grid to leave room for a tank). High range weapons usually lack the need for a tank unless of course they are attacked by another high range weapon.
Arties require more grid than Autocannons Rails require more grid than Blasters Beams require more grid than Pulse lasers
The above are examples of the higher RANGE weapon requiring more grid than the higher damage weapon. The above is not only true for medium weapons but is also true for small and large.
Now consider the Caldari medium weapon for cruisers or battlecruisers û The Heavy Assault Missile Launcher and Heavy Missile Launcher. The HAM is short range high damage while the HML is long range lower damage. HOWEVER, for some reason the HAM is harder to fit than the HML. When compared to ALL other races including Caldari small and large missiles (rockets, standards, torps, cruises) the HAM and HML have a reverse fitting requirement.
In order for Caldari missile boats to fit a full rack of HAMs they need to practically sacrifice their entire tank if they fit Ballistic Control Systems in the lows. Of course we can fill the lows with 2 or 3 reactor control units but no other race needs to use fitting mods in order to fit their low range higher damage weapons. The HAM is the close range high damage weapon but canÆt really be used as such unless you know you wonÆt be shot at or are being remote repped.
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this? IÆm not trying to add yet another whine or balance thread but IÆm trying to understanding this a bit more.
Thanks
I don¦t see the problem really. I have no problems fitting a Drake with 7 HAM¦s (T2), equal or more buffer than other BC¦s and still maintain around 500 dps, while still having point, web and MWD.
Post your setups, then we can see what you are doing wrong..
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AnKahn
Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:14:00 -
[57]
What's amazing is for such a "weak" ship from a "weak" PvP race the Drake sure takes up a lot of forum space.
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