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Lucas Edge
Caldari Infraction
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Posted - 2009.05.04 12:08:00 -
[1]
I'm a little confused about the roles of Caldari medium missiles...
For ALL guns and even smaller and larger missile types, the higher damage lower range weapons require less grid than lower damage higher range weapons. To me, this is because lower range weapons require the ship to get in the middle of the fight and within range of most other weapons so it needs more of a tank as well (hence the lower grid to leave room for a tank). High range weapons usually lack the need for a tank unless of course they are attacked by another high range weapon.
Arties require more grid than Autocannons Rails require more grid than Blasters Beams require more grid than Pulse lasers
The above are examples of the higher RANGE weapon requiring more grid than the higher damage weapon. The above is not only true for medium weapons but is also true for small and large.
Now consider the Caldari medium weapon for cruisers or battlecruisers û The Heavy Assault Missile Launcher and Heavy Missile Launcher. The HAM is short range high damage while the HML is long range lower damage. HOWEVER, for some reason the HAM is harder to fit than the HML. When compared to ALL other races including Caldari small and large missiles (rockets, standards, torps, cruises) the HAM and HML have a reverse fitting requirement.
In order for Caldari missile boats to fit a full rack of HAMs they need to practically sacrifice their entire tank if they fit Ballistic Control Systems in the lows. Of course we can fill the lows with 2 or 3 reactor control units but no other race needs to use fitting mods in order to fit their low range higher damage weapons. The HAM is the close range high damage weapon but canÆt really be used as such unless you know you wonÆt be shot at or are being remote repped.
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this? IÆm not trying to add yet another whine or balance thread but IÆm trying to understanding this a bit more.
Thanks
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Elisabeth Dakar
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Posted - 2009.05.04 12:48:00 -
[2]
Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 12:49:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lucas Edge I'm a little confused about the roles of Caldari medium missiles...
This is probably the root of your confusion: medium missiles aren't "caldari" — they're just medium missiles.
As for your question, it's not just medium missiles that work this way — all missile systems have the same higher-damage/higher-fitting reqs setup.
An obvious reson could be that missiles — unlike those other weapon systems you mention — have consistent (high) damage across their entire effective range. Other short-range weapons have very narrow range bands in which they are effective due to optimal/falloff and tracking combinations — missiles do not. This means that you can effectively use your high-damage missiles in a far wider range of scenarios and this benefit must come at a cost. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.05.04 12:50:00 -
[4]
Well, I tend to say poor balancing.
Others tend to say l2p.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.04 12:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
Hi,
Projectile weapons like to have a word with you.
kthxbye ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.04 13:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
I guess you only are used to fail fits then I take it? While missiles could need a few % more, they are by far a bad weapon system. HAM is great on a Drake or Sac for solo work, HM is good in small gangs for cmaping or roaming gangs.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.05.04 13:12:00 -
[7]
Not ALL missile systems are so. Rockets are considerably easier to fit than standards, despite being intended as the short-range high damage small launcher. I say 'intended' because as anyone who'd used rockets will testify, they are total gash.
In some ways I can see the reasoning. I'd absolutely love HAM's to be easier to fit than HML's. The Cerberus would be incredible, the Nighthawk would become a viable pvp ship and HAM-Drake's would be made of more win than they currently are.
That last one is probably the problem - the Drake really doesn't need the boost. If they altered the grid requirements they'd have to swipe some PG from the Drake and then, by extension, the Nighthawk. Thereby not really fixing anything, since Khanid ships already have assloads of grid and therefore have no real problem fitting HAM's.
Which is another reason why I suppose, Khanid ships have bonuses to HAM's, not HML's. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.04 13:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
Hi,
Projectile weapons like to have a word with you.
kthxbye
Standard missile launchers - the lowest dps of all weapon systems in game _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Emerhyz
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Posted - 2009.05.04 13:30:00 -
[9]
The missiles are considered to be the worst weapons in pvp.
Before many patches ago, missiles were godly because of Range & Dps (Torps).
Before many patches ago, Caldari had the best attributes to start with (Apoch evened the playing field).
Before many patches ago, everyone cried that Caldari had too many good stuff (They still cry, but point at Caldari's weakpoints now for justice).
now you have; missiles are considered to be the worst weapons in pvp (Many will argue otherwise - Even I do).
All and all, since caldari is Missile Boats - It's considered Caldari Missiles usually.
I do love the Caracal NPC's that shoot me with Thermal Lasers
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Lucas Edge
Caldari Infraction
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Posted - 2009.05.04 13:47:00 -
[10]
Yeah I didn't mean to say that missiles are only for Caldari. I just meant that most caldari mid-level boats use missiles as the primary weapon. I understand that all races can use missiles in one way or another.
And I was incorrect when comparing HAMs and HMLs with cruise and torps. Torps which are the close'er' range high damage dealer are considerable harder to fit than cruise missiles. Also with standard missiles, there are the normal standards and the assault launchers which require more grid than normal standard launchers.
So HAMs requiring more grid than HMLs falls in line with the rest of the missiles which are Caldari's weapon of choice on most of their ships (besides ECM and hybrids).
I definitely DO NOT favor all races to be the same. I donÆt mind some races to be æseeminglyÆ overpowered and others underpowered. I like the diversity and I hate how everything is being æbalancedÆ right now. I agree that certain systems need tweaking but all thatÆs happening is NERF NERF NERF. With that said, I would like Caldari to remain different than the rest of the races but I would also like to see Caldari doing some nice damage while still having somewhat of a tank at close range. I guess I wouldnÆt even mind HAMs only having a 7-10km range on un-range-bonused ships if it means reducing the grid.
Whatever happens my question has been been answered so thanks.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lucas Edge Yeah I didn't mean to say that missiles are only for Caldari. I just meant that most caldari mid-level boats use missiles as the primary weapon.
Not really.
Turret-centric ships Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Blackbird — Turrets + Launchers. Moa — Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones. Osprey — Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Falcon — Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile-centric ships Drake — Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal — Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones. Basilisk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook — Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus. Onyx.
Exactly half of them use hybrids (including bonuses). The whole "Caldari = missiles" is a PvE misconception essentially based on the commonness of the Drake, the Nighthawk and the Raven. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:23:00 -
[12]
Quote: Also with standard missiles, there are the normal standards and the assault launchers which require more grid than normal standard launchers.
This is noobish. Assault launchers are medium weapons, and standard missile launchers are small. Assault launchers aren't the close range variant of small missiles - rockets are. Rockets are easier to fit than SML's, but rockets completely suck, so it rarely matters. :P
Also, as to the list of turret vs. missile boats, while there are lots of turret ships around, I think it's fair to say that most of the good/worth flying Caldari ships use missiles. You're free to rock your Osprey all day long, but personally I'd stick with a cerb, HAM drake or one of the other good ships. The Eagle/Rokh can be good if you need the range, and I suppose these days the Falcon is a turret ship, but I'd hardly consider that a gunboat, heh, and at most, it might tickle someone with a turret while jamming. Overall, their good ships = missile ships.
I tend to consider it just a bassackwards implementation by CCP, but perhaps they had balance considerations in mind when doing it.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tippia
Turret-centric ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers.
Blackbird and Falcon are ECM platforms... not real combat ships Osprey is a miner And there is a reason why the Moa and Ferox suck ///my vote is for sale, he who sends the most iskies gets it\\\ |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Elisabeth Dakar Missiles not only suck because of Fitting, but they also have the lowest dps of all weapon types.
Hi,
Projectile weapons like to have a word with you.
kthxbye
Standard missile launchers - the lowest dps of all weapon systems in game
But they have good range.
However dps wise they are low yes. Too bad this topic was about how poor caldari are with their low dps ham and hms, while med projectile turrets do less dps ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Lucas Edge Yeah I didn't mean to say that missiles are only for Caldari. I just meant that most caldari mid-level boats use missiles as the primary weapon.
Not really.
Turret-centric ships Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones. Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones. Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus. Onyx.
Exactly half of them use hybrids (including bonuses). The whole "Caldari = missiles" is a PvE misconception essentially based on the commonness of the Drake, the Nighthawk and the Raven.
That's cute. The only "gunships" you listed that anyone actually uses and puts guns on in pvp are ferox and eagle, and they are both outclassed by other races. A brutix or thorax (or a diemost god forbid) are much better blaster boats. A zealot or muninn makes a better sniper. The rokh is really the only caldari gunship that truly stands out.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Blackbird and Falcon are ECM platforms... not real combat ships Osprey is a miner And there is a reason why the Moa and Ferox suck
Ok, let's clear the list up a bit then…
Turret-centric ships Vulture — Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Eagle — Hybrids + Launchers. Ferox — Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Moa — Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones.
Osprey — Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Blackbird — Turrets + Launchers. Falcon — Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones.
Missile-centric ships Drake — Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal — Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones.
Basilisk — Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook — Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Onyx.
Rook is an ECM boat, Onyx is just there to tackle, Basilisk is a logistics ship. Still 4 vs. 4, so still half, and now all the remaining turret ships have hybrid bonuses. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:39:00 -
[17]
So make that list from useable ships where dmg dealing is their job to some extend:
Missile ships: crow cerb caracal raven nighthawk drake rook kestrel onyx phoenix golem
turret ships: rokh eagle (sux at dps) harpy ferox (sux at dps)
it is 11 vs 4 ?
it is like saying gallente is not the drone race...
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Incantare
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Incantare on 04/05/2009 14:42:47 The Eagle is a brilliant ship for km whoring .
Serously though if the Ferox got an extra turret (as much as the Brutix) and the Moa got a high moved to a mid you'd see more of them. Until then Rokh it is for me.
HAM fittings don't make much sense for Caldari short range weapons, but if I remember correctly they were originally designed for Minmatar who have an easier time with grid.
There really isn't any consistency in fittings for missiles of different sizes.
Rockets take less grid/cpu than standards. HAMs take more grid / less cpu than heavies. Cruise takes less of both and that's about the only thing they have going for them in PvP.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Blackbird and Falcon are ECM platforms... not real combat ships Osprey is a miner And there is a reason why the Moa and Ferox suck
Ok, let's clear the list up a bit thenà
Turret-centric ships Vulture ù Hybrids + Launchers + 5+ Drones. Eagle ù Hybrids + Launchers. Ferox ù Hybrids + Launcher + 5+ Drones. Moa ù Hybrids + Launchers + 3+ Drones.
Osprey ù Turrets + Launchers + 4+ Drones. Blackbird ù Turrets + Launchers. Falcon ù Hybrids + Launchers + 2+ Drones.
Missile-centric ships Drake ù Missiles + 5+ Drones. Nighthawk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Caracal ù Missiles (+ turrets) + 2+ Drones.
Basilisk ù Missiles (+ turret) + 5+ Drones. Rook ù Missiles + 5+ Drones.
Missile-only ships Cerberus.
Onyx.
Rook is an ECM boat, Onyx is just there to tackle, Basilisk is a logistics ship. Still 4 vs. 4, so still half, and now all the remaining turret ships have hybrid bonuses.
Rook does the same damage as a cerb when not using kinetics... I think that qualifies it as a missile boat, no?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 14:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tippia on 04/05/2009 14:50:43
Originally by: Naomi Knight it is like saying gallente is not the drone race...
No it is like saying that gallente is only a drone race, conveniently forgetting ships like the Thorax, Brutix, Deimos, Hype, Megathron, Phobos, Astarte, Kronos… basically their entire lineup of "OMGZDPS!" ships. Ignoring the other Caldari weapon system means ignoring half the ships.
Caldari is not a missile race. They're a missile/hybrid race just like the Gallente are a hybrid/drone race, just like Minmatar are a projectiles/missile/occasionaly-drone race, just like Amarr are… well, lazors.
Also, your list is incomplete and imposes irrelevant opinions.
Originally by: Malcanis Rook does the same damage as a cerb when not using kinetics... I think that qualifies it as a missile boat, no?
He said that ECM boats are not "real combat ships" — the fact that he's so wrong it hurts is a completely different matter and only means that the Falcon counts as a turret boat as well… but sure. 5 vs. 5. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Lucas Edge
Caldari Infraction
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Posted - 2009.05.04 15:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia [aldari is not a missile race. They're a missile/hybrid race just like the Gallente are a hybrid/drone race, just like Minmatar are a projectiles/missile/occasionaly-drone race, just like Amarr areà well, lazors.
So Tippia... What exactly is your point in all of this? You've pointed out the known Caldari missile and hybrid boats? So now what? Are you trying to say that because Caldari might have an equal or lesser number of missile boats that missiles should not be discussed and/or HAMs vs HML are fine? Or are you saying that missiles suck so bad when compared to hybrids or other turrets that they aren't worth discussing?
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Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.05.04 15:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
That's cute. The only "gunships" you listed that anyone actually uses and puts guns on in pvp are ferox and eagle, and they are both outclassed by other races. A brutix or thorax (or a diemost god forbid) are much better blaster boats. A zealot or muninn makes a better sniper. The rokh is really the only caldari gunship that truly stands out.
you make the genereal mistake, to have caldari ship - long range - compared to gallente ships - short range. OFC we could now argue about the use of blaster on a ferox or rails on the Brutix. Which is ofc possible, but with the trend of caldari being shield, the gallente armor tankers you are running into serious trouble with a decent blaster fitting for caldari, Iam not saying it doenst work, it does very well sometimes. But dont forget the moment of suprise when you run into a beagle or berox, cause most ppl will think you are long range. On the ohter hand you run into problems when you fit Gallente for range, cause the relativly shorter locking range, in some cases the lack of mids and the lack of any range bonus.
Nutshell, Caldari have great gunboats, eagle, Ferox, Rokh are king of the hill when it comes to range with a decent fitting. So you may end up with your rail deimos being top of the mail but when you wanna be as far away as possible you maybe wanna be in an eagle far far away.
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McEivalley
Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 15:36:00 -
[23]
I don't like this post because it suggests that all weapons should be alike, while they shouldn't. HAMs are much more flexible weapons than most short range guns (you can fit and mix any damage type you like on a relatively short notice), they inflict very high DPS (though relatively to heavy missiles, low alpha) and are perfect to pulverize big targets.
It is true that caldari ships have more hi slots for missile launchers, but HAMs are actually more of an Amarr weapon than Caldari, if you want to relate weapons to races... a very sad and narrow-minded view of the fitting game, imho.
A Cerb or Sac with HAMs will make short work of any BC or bigger target. Because their of high damage potential, going with all available slots using just these is over-powered if shield tank is included (hence the high grid requirement) a Cerb pilot will either fit one less or pay the fitting price. The Sac has a great tank - granted - but is also very slow compared to Cerbs due to the tank, making it a kill-or-get-killed boat.
A drake with HAMs is viable too, if you stick with only 6 launchers rather than the 7 available. Yeah, even if the number in the fitting window says you can it doesn't mean you have to use them for missiles. The best curse pilots I know have 0 missile launchers on their hi slots. I know of a lot of domi pilots without a single hybrid on their hi-s. The list goes on...
Insert clever remark where?? |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.04 15:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: McEivalley Edited by: McEivalley on 04/05/2009 15:37:51 I don't like this post because it suggests that all weapons should be alike, while they shouldn't. HAMs are much more flexible weapons than most short range guns (you can fit and mix any damage type you like on a relatively short notice), they inflict very high DPS (though relatively to heavy missiles, low alpha) and are perfect to pulverize big targets.
It is true that caldari ships have more hi slots for missile launchers, but HAMs are actually more of an Amarr weapon than Caldari, if you want to relate weapons to races... a very sad and narrow-minded view of the fitting game, imho.
A Cerb or Sac with HAMs will make short work of any BC or bigger target. Because of their high damage potential, going with all available slots using just these is over-powered, considering a shield tank is included (hence the high grid requirement) a Cerb pilot will either fit one less or pay the fitting price. The Sac has a great tank - granted - but is also very slow compared to Cerbs due to the tank, making it a kill-or-get-killed boat.
A drake with HAMs is viable too, if you stick with only 6 launchers rather than the 7 available. Yeah, even if the number in the fitting window says you can it doesn't mean you have to use them for missiles. The best curse pilots I know have 0 missile launchers on their hi slots. I know of a lot of domi pilots without a single hybrid on their hi-s. The list goes on...
You're right on about hams. Better range and more flexibility is win. Level AWU5 though. Ham drakes are awesome and can fit a tank fine with 7 launchers.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.05.04 15:58:00 -
[25]
If you're gonna go fail-drake and only fit 6 hams, you might as well go real-drake and fit 7 HMls, which will do about the same dps with 5 times the range
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Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.05.04 16:03:00 -
[26]
Didn't read thread. However, HAMs use less CPU, and shield tankers are more CPU-dependent for their tank and tackler, and thus it's more inline for HAMs to have lower CPU reqs than lower grid.
That's not to say that the current fitting req's are balanced - of that I have no opinion.
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McEivalley
Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 16:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu If you're gonna go fail-drake and only fit 6 hams, you might as well go real-drake and fit 7 HMls, which will do about the same dps with 5 times the range
I don't fly drakes with HAMs, period. I know some that do and some choose the option of 6 HAMLs over 7 in order to deal better dps and conserve soem ofthe aawesome passive tank of the drake, without paying the tribute of fitting grid mods in their stead. Then the damage they deal is terrifying compared to a heavies drake.
You assume too much sir, ...
Insert clever remark where?? |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:03:00 -
[28]
Whoah, hold on there sonny. Passive tank in pvp is doing it wrong.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: McEivalley
I don't fly drakes with HAMs, period. I know some that do and some choose the option of 6 HAMLs over 7 in order to deal better dps and conserve soem ofthe aawesome passive tank of the drake, without paying the tribute of fitting grid mods in their stead. Then the damage they deal is terrifying compared to a heavies drake.
You assume too much sir, ...
6 HAMs deal about 520 dps with drones. 7 HMs deal about 510 dps with drones. 7 HAMs deal about 610 dps with drones.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lucas Edge So Tippia... What exactly is your point in all of this?
Read the line of arguments — it should be pretty clear.
OP: I wonder about caldari missiles. Me: Missiles aren't "caldari". OP: I guess, but they're the weapon caldari use. Me: No, caldari use hybrids as well (and actually, quite a lot of drones).
Any other interpretations are your own projection and incorrect interpretations. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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