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Sophie Joscelyne	Posted - 2009.05.06 10:21:00 - [1] Ive nearly hit my short term goals, and was woundering should i take time out of my goals to get all of learing skills to 5? The basic learnig skills are all 4 with learning V and the T2 learning skills are 4? should i get them to 5? Im an industrial charcter :D
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.05.06 10:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Lecherito on 06/05/2009 10:38:47 Some bitter veterans might try to persuade you to train even the advanced ones to 5. I wouldn't bother, considering the massive time required and the fact that it takes literally years to gain anything from them. As for the basics to level 5, I didn't at first, once again due to the long period of "nothing" time they would have required. I've now reached a point in my career (after 4 months) where I don't really have any imminent need of any certain skill, a plateau if you will. Thus, I'm now taking the time to train the basics to 5. Eventually, you'll want to at least train the basics to 5, but I would not do so at the expensive of fun and with the possible result of losing interest and quitting Eve. But in the end, it is most definitely your call. -L
Sophie Joscelyne	Posted - 2009.05.06 10:52:00 - [3] so you wouldnt say its a must? more of a preferance?
Cornelius Augustinus Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.05.06 11:11:00 - [4] you are fine with basics at 4 and advanced at 4. I wouldn't train the basic learning skills to 5 until after atleast 6 months when you would start to see a return on it.
DJTheBaron Caldari FinFleet KenZoku	Posted - 2009.05.06 11:16:00 - [5] Count yourself lucky, most of the older players had to train the basic skills to 5 before they could install the advanced skills. Train basic learning skills to 4, advanced learnings to 3-4, & use cheap +1/+2 implants. Theres no fun to be had in eve if you dont have the skills for that new ship you want, so train gameplay skills as a priority and find the time for learning 5's before you aim for tech 2 skills. If you have the option to hike your intel/mem skillset to max, insert learnings then core skills such as electronics, engineering etc before shooting up perception/willpower layout for ships. But i dont reccomend hardcore skill plans like that for new players who should just train fun things to experience the game before subscribing. __________ "The Views & Opinions Expressed In This Post Represent Your Own, So Dont Bother Arguing"
Sophie Joscelyne	Posted - 2009.05.06 11:24:00 - [6] I has +4's in and have mem and intel hicked maxxed out, (although i have one more remap) So even as a veteran you owould say dont bother until you can do what you reallly want to do in the game?
DJTheBaron Caldari FinFleet KenZoku	Posted - 2009.05.06 12:16:00 - [7] Edited by: DJTheBaron on 06/05/2009 12:23:30 Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne I has +4's in and have mem and intel hicked maxxed out, (although i have one more remap) So even as a veteran you owould say dont bother until you can do what you reallly want to do in the game? Whats the point of logging in otherwise? If i was to start eve as a new player, i would take the following path. (Ship combat & missions to learn the game) Train learning skills to 3 while running the tutorial agents who supply skills, fittings and a frigate. Take the free frigate and go for the epic mission arc for income/experience while training for a cruiser. Use the cruiser in the mission arc and missions while using teamwork with new found friends in the mission channel etc. Once your flying the cruiser pretty well your going to have to save money to buy a battlecruiser, thankfully they use cruiser modules/skills. During this time train your basic learning skills to 4, buy and install advanced learning skills to 3-4. Get that battlecruiser and start to make decent money. Aim for a battleship but dont jump into one too soon. Once you feel youve mastered your races tech 1 ships to a good level (lv4 for all related skills, 5 in core skills) sink some time into your learning before you aim for tech 2 Somewhere along the line its important to socialise with people ingame and find the right corp, the right corp is what makes the game playable for so many years. You may even find corps prepared to guide and sponser you, but try and learn things for yourself so you can adapt in eve. __________ "The Views & Opinions Expressed In This Post Represent Your Own, So Dont Bother Arguing"
Sophie Joscelyne	Posted - 2009.05.06 12:44:00 - [8] I can fly cruisers preety well already... And i just like to mine atm, ive not decided what path to take as a player yet! But I was woundering as im a perfectionist... is it worth getting my learning skills to V as it will increase all other training skilss(even if only a little bit) But as i understand from the reaction from most of you it is not worth it at all at the stage oif the game i am in :D Thanks anyways
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Lecherito Edited by: Lecherito on 06/05/2009 10:38:47 Some bitter veterans might try to persuade you to train even the advanced ones to 5. -L Most "bitter veterans" vehemently advise against doing this. 4+4 is fine for a newish character. In fact it's perfectly reasonable to just leave them at 4+4 forever. 5+5 is for the kind of person who just like the idea of "maxing out" their character, or at best for a 2nd-account alt who can be left in a station for 3 months. Mine are at 5+4, mainly because it used to be that you had to get the basics to 5 before you could train the advanced.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne so you wouldnt say its a must? more of a preferance? A good way to look at it is this: In EvE you need both character skills and player skills. Over-focusing on learning skills early on will boost your SP total at the expense of your experience. You'll have lots of SP but less idea of what to do with them. (And less fun)

Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:36:00 - [11] Learn level 5 of learning only when you don't know what to train. When I didn't know what to train, I kept putting it in learning 5, while my friend trained for Falcon. Now I have learning 5's all over, and Raven is my best ship. While my friend also has a Raven, he lacks level 5 learning, and hates his Falcon now. It's not needed, (Learning to 5's) but it's safe.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.05.06 14:08:00 - [12] From a purely mathematical standpoint, you can look at the value of learning skills like this: Every extra level gives you +1 in an attribute. This equates to 1 additional SP more earned per hour in other skills that have this attribute as their primary (half an SP if secondary). This means that it takes the SP value of that level number of minutes before you start earning back the time spend training the learning skill (although the Learning skill complicates matters slightly with its percentual bonus). Eg. #1 Analytical mind increases Int. Training from lvl III to lvl IV requires 37,255 SP (lvl IV is 45,255 - 8,000 you already have at lvl III). This means that it will take 37,255 minutes (~621h or roughly 26 days) of training skills with Int as their primary attribute before that level pays off. Eg. #2 Analytical mind V requires 210,745 SP (256,000-45,255), and thus requires 146 days (210,754 / 60 / 24) of Int-primary training to earn back. Eg. #3 Instead of analytical mind V, let's train Logic IV, which requires 135,765 SP. It also gives you +4 Int, rather than just +1, so it only takes 1/4 the normal time to earn back which comes out as 23 days of Int-primary training (135,765 / 60 / 24 / 4)… Or, actually, slightly less since the lower levels are being payed back through training the higher levels since these are also Int-based. But pah! Details! Eg. #4 …then again, if you have some cash left over and already have the prerequisites, you can always just train Cybernetics I and stuff a full set of +3 implants in there. This requires 750 SP and gives you +3 SP/minute from the primary attribute and +1.5SP/minute from the secondary attribute for all skills trained afterwards. This means you've earned that training time back in less than 3 hours no matter what you train… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.06 22:10:00 - [13] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/05/2009 22:12:26 <deleted as it appears to be redundant>
Ta'jek Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.08 12:45:00 - [14] do them to 4/4 as others more exp. then I am suggested.. if really want to get them to 5 then save the longer training times for when you know you won't be on for that length of time.... vacation, finals etc.... in my case for my job when things get going can be gone on assignment for 2 weeks to a month or longer.... one of the things I like about this game can actually be "gaining" in the game while out on the lines...
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.09 08:45:00 - [15] Ok, I don't usually get involved in thesse discussions, but I will this time. If you plan to play for MORE than one year (not in total, but from now on), training the basics to lvl5 pays off. But they only start to pay off after one yers from when they finish. If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so. I've trained all my learning skills to lvl5 (apart from the advanced charisma one), but I did it so that I can train what I want when I want to, and I'll have that slight edge. It doesn't make a big difference, and training all those learning skills is a real PAIN, so I don't recommend it for anyone. Hope this helps.
Lukriss	Posted - 2009.05.09 11:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Fille Balle Ok, I don't usually get involved in thesse discussions, but I will this time. If you plan to play for MORE than one year (not in total, but from now on), training the basics to lvl5 pays off. But they only start to pay off after one yers from when they finish. If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so. I've trained all my learning skills to lvl5 (apart from the advanced charisma one), but I did it so that I can train what I want when I want to, and I'll have that slight edge. It doesn't make a big difference, and training all those learning skills is a real PAIN, so I don't recommend it for anyone. Hope this helps. Remember, those are the MINIMUM times It'll take assuming a 100% even skill training over all attributes, i don't think there's even enough skills to "earn back" presence.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.09 13:30:00 - [17] Fille Balle said "If you plan to play for MORE than three years, training the advanced ones to lvl5 pays off, but again, they only start to pay off after three years. So I guess after about 4-5 years you have gained enough to justify doing so." As per normal in these threads I don't agree. By three years I gained months of skill I would not have with adv4. So it did not take 4-5 year to justify training those skills. Payoff by its self is a bad way to work out if learning skills are worth getting. There are lots of situations where you end up better off with adv5 yet payoff says your worse off. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.05.09 14:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Pottsey There are ~~lots of~~ a select few situations where you might ~~end up~~ temporarily be better off with adv5 yet payoff says you're ~~worse off~~ not yet better off. Fixed that for you. FREE! jumpclone service - over 200 locations!
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.09 14:39:00 - [19] Edited by: Pottsey on 09/05/2009 14:40:46 You didn't fix that correctly. As it's not always temporarily. I also don't agree with select few situations. In my experience most players who play longer than one year end up better with adv5, not all though. EDIT: The players who end up better with adv4 are the ones with static never changeing skill plans and those are the rare ones. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.05.09 14:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2009 14:40:12 What Pottsey is trying to say but has trouble conveying is that for a person that pretty much already maxed-out all skills he CARES to max-out and is only training things he probably wouldn't train if he had any alternatives, the moment any new useful skill appears, the maxed-out learnings "instantly" pay off from his viewpoint. Granted, the pool of people this viewpoint can possibly apply to is quite small, but nevertheless, it's a valid viewpoint EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK

Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.09 14:45:00 - [21] Edited by: Pottsey on 09/05/2009 14:46:18 Akita T that's only half the story. Those that change skill plans unexpectedly also benefit from adv5. For example your corp did an unplanned move to 0.0 and you move from PvE to PvP. Or CCP do a balance change so you change your skill plan. Or new skills come out, or many other situations that make you change skill plans. How many people changed their skill plans to get missiles and fly Stealth Bombers with the recent balance change? How many stoped the old plan to train Cruise missile skills and changed to torps due to the change? Its stuff like that which makes adv5 more than worthwhile. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.05.09 17:41:00 - [22] I trained them all to lvl5 and I say its not worth. I created a 2nd and 3rd accounts, now I realize how stupid was spending months training that ****. With these alts im heading to useful things (Hulk, Raven...) and its like... LOL, im almost overtaking my main, which is 4 months older, in some aspects. Seriously, enjoy the game and the useful skills, who cares about having 40M SP or 50M SP after some years, you are a pro anyways. There are not too much useful skills to train after some point, only ships and ships and ships... You can use alts for that.
Bladen Kerst Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.09 20:33:00 - [23] It is just another form of an age old argument: Initiative vs long term benefit If you spend lot of real time playing eve you will do great even with basic at 4 and advanced at 3. If you don't play a lot than long term benefit is more appealing. In this case your most important decision is not whether or not to train advanced to lvl 5, but how many extra accounts you should create. getting fourth account would increase skill points you are gaining by roughly 33%, while training advanced to lvl 5 by aproximately 5% or something like that
Andrymeda	Posted - 2009.05.10 14:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Sophie Joscelyne Ive nearly hit my short term goals, and was woundering should i take time out of my goals to get all of learing skills to 5? The basic learnig skills are all 4 with learning V and the T2 learning skills are 4? should i get them to 5? Im an industrial charcter :D Any time spent training other skills with learning skills to train is a waste (beyond the point of having your character do something useful). Some look at only the time to "reinvest", which is a major mistake. Once you start taking on implants (and you will), having all learning skills trained to 5 will really start paying off. ----------- Amused pilot
Bladen Kerst Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.10 18:34:00 - [25] wrong, implants decrease the usefulness of learning skills. If you have primary attribute at 29 and secondary at 23 training advanced to 5 gives you less than 4% in training speed increase. Without implants it would be around 5%.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.11 05:27:00 - [26] Quote: wrong, implants decrease the usefulness of learning skills. You'd have to try very very hard to be more wrong. Implants have no effect on the usefulness of learning skills. Implants go away when you get podded. Learning skills don't (presuming you keep your clone up to date). Learning skills don't take up valuable headspace...high end stat implants preclude the use of high performance faction implants (Slaves, Crystal, Halo, Snake). There are no diminishing returns on attributes. While it is true that each point of an attribute from ANY source gives less of a percentage increase than the one before...so what? It's more skill gain. Every across-the-board stat increase (with learning 5) gives an extra 1.65 skillpoints per minute. Period. The percentage increase would have great difficulty being less important.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.11 09:58:00 - [27] Bladen Kerst said ôWhile getting second account increases skill point gain by 100% without neccesity to spend 2 months training some ******ed learning skills to lvl 5 and then wait for 3 years waiting for them to pay off.ö You might get 100% skill point gain but you also need 100% more core skillpoints and some none core skill points with a 2nd account. Instead of spending 2 months getting learning skills you will spend over 2 months getting the core and support skills you already have on your other account. As I have proven in the past it does not always take 3 years to benefit from learning skills to lvl 5. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.05.11 10:08:00 - [28] Edited by: Ms Delerium on 11/05/2009 10:11:00 Originally by: Bladen Kerst It is just another form of an age old argument: Initiative vs long term benefit If you spend lot of real time playing eve you will do great even with basic at 4 and advanced at 3. If you don't play a lot than long term benefit is more appealing. In this case your most important decision is not whether or not to train advanced to lvl 5, but how many extra accounts you should create. getting fourth account would increase skill points you are gaining by roughly 33%, while training advanced to lvl 5 by aproximately 5% or something like that great point sir. alts are the way. they cost money though Originally by: Pottsey You might get 100% skill point gain but you also need 100% more core skillpoints and some none core skill points with a 2nd account. Instead of spending 2 months getting learning skills you will spend over 2 months getting the core and support skills you already have on your other account. As I have proven in the past it does not always take 3 years to benefit from learning skills to lvl 5. you kidding? first, a 2nd or 3rd accoutn are very useful. Then, we not talking about stay with no learn skills, but 4/3 maybe. That will take half the time (or even less) than 5/5 while only losing 3 attribute points. Seriously who cares if you have 27 or 30 points, in the end its a 10% benefit/loss. while the fun/useful factor says logically you want useful skills rather than learn skills which are boring to train.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.11 12:17:00 - [29] Ms Delerium said ôyou kidding? first, a 2nd or 3rd accoutn are very useful.ö No I am not kidding and a 2nd or 3rd account being very useful has very little to do with what I said. A second account does not give you 100% more useful new skill points. A fourth account does not give you 33% more useful new skill points. For example if I want to use large projectiles I train 3 skills. If I get a new second account I need to train something like 40+ skills all but 3 of which my first account has. Sure I get 100% more skillpoints with a 2nd account but I have to retrain a lot of core and support skills so I donÆt end up with 100% more new skills. Ms Delerium said ôwhile the fun/useful factor says logically you want useful skills rather than learn skills which are boring to train.ö The learning skills sometimes give you more fun/useful skills then if you didnÆt have learning skills. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Bladen Kerst Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.11 12:30:00 - [30] So what if you need to train several rank 1-3 skills on every account, at least they give real benefit. As far as I am concerned 3 remote repping dominixes with sentry drones would have absolutely the same skills, but focus fire from all the t2 sentries could scare off even a small roaming gang.

Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.11 16:13:00 - [31] Bladen Kerst said ôSo what if you need to train several rank 1-3 skills on every account, at least they give real benefit.ö The point is youÆre not getting twice as many new skillpoints or 33% more new skill points with a 4th account. YouÆre getting the same skillpoints again. I would rather gain a 4% in training speed increase over having to train lots of my skills a second time. Then again there is always the option of both together. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.11 18:20:00 - [32] yeah they're not exactly exclusive options.
Flametongue I'stari	Posted - 2009.05.11 20:14:00 - [33] Quote: As I have proven in the past it does not always take 3 years to benefit from learning skills to lvl 5. Please, enlighten us.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.11 20:55:00 - [34] Do a search for some of my old threads. I don't really want to derail this and get into another long argument. If you cannot find them either ask again here or better yet eve mail me and I will explain in more detail. In short I ended up with months of skills I wouldn't have had if I had adv4. One of my alts ended up with the skills to fly an Orca at lvl5 while the same skill plan would have not even got to Orca lvl 1 yet with adv4. Adv5 lets you adapt to unexpected skill plans faster or new skills. Things like the Stealth Bomber Torp change or new skills like T3 can be train faster with adv5 over adv4. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Flametongue I'stari	Posted - 2009.05.11 21:02:00 - [35] I get what you're saying, but if you trained for the Orca before training to Adv5 you'd be in the Orca first. This is why it takes a certain amount of time before training to Adv5 pays off.
Lagruna Zegata	Posted - 2009.05.11 21:39:00 - [36] Also, training adv lvl 5's are more valuable now in some ways because of the new attribute re-specs available. Even though you only can work with your base attributes with re-specs, you still seem to have more raw "points" and flexibility to play around with. Just my 2 ISK
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.12 09:37:00 - [37] Hey Pottsey, I said I had trained them, m'kay? I also said why. I was just saying that the RAW sp that you've invested in the learning skills will be regained after about 3 years (if you're an EVEMON warrior). I trained the learning skill to lvl5 knowing this (yup, I'm a number punching monkey), but I still trained them. Why? Well, because every skill I trained before I trained before the learning skills, I felt like I was loosing sp (yup, I'm also a perfectionist douchebag). And you're right, I'm feeling the benefits every time I change my skill plan, or finish a skill plan. I can train the BS skill to lvl5 in 24 days! I'm happy, and I don't regret it. I know some people who do regret it though, and are saying that it was a waste of time. In conclusion: if you feel like you should, DO IT! If you FEEL that it's a waste of time, DON'T DO IT!!11!!111ONE1!!1 And stop whining. Play the game, have fun. PEW PEW, or don't PEW PEW!
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.12 10:03:00 - [38] Edited by: Pottsey on 12/05/2009 10:04:39 Flametongue I'stari said ôI get what you're saying, but if you trained for the Orca before training to Adv5 you'd be in the Orca first. This is why it takes a certain amount of time before training to Adv5 pays off. But I couldnÆt train the skill for the Orca before it came out. I did not have a crystal ball telling me what skills would be needed for it so I couldnÆt plan to train those before I got adv5. So no adv4 gets into the Orca slower. This is estimated roughly on one of my next year plan. I spend 2 months on Gallante T3 skills as I want a T3 drone ship. Another 2 months on missile skills due to the Stealth Bombe rebalance. Another 2 months Caldari T3 for a shield gang booster ship. I want to peak out my damage in the T3 crusier and as I never fly small ships in the past I never trained T2 medium turrets to level 5. So I add that skill which means another month. ThatÆs 7 months. Now add a few more skills on that came out after I got adv5 most likely the drone specialisation skills to level 5 and in one year I have saved 17 ish days. Doing the skill plan 17 ish days faster due to adv5 in one year is a massive benefit as I spend the whole entire year ahead in that plan of where I would be with adv4. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Chakarr	Posted - 2009.05.12 12:20:00 - [39] Edited by: Chakarr on 12/05/2009 12:27:47 Originally by: Pottsey Bad Quoting n stuff As this is a thread where fussy perfectionists post I just like to say: Pottsey PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE - LEARN HOW TO QUOTE DAGNAMMIT!!!!!! Don't take this the wrong way it just makes your posts difficult to read, so I end up losing interest in what you are trying to say... Originally by: Lagruna Zegata Also, training adv lvl 5's are more valuable now in some ways because of the new attribute re-specs available. Even though you only can work with your base attributes with re-specs, you still seem to have more raw "points" and flexibility to play around with. Just my 2 ISK This IMO, I used the 100% bonus to get basics to 5 have specced high mem/int and trained the mem/int adv to level V, in a few weeks I will respec to high perc/will and train the adv perc/will to level V - so my training times for the adv learnings are shorter, therefore I will see a payback on these much faster then if I trained them with a avg spread of starting attributes. Also the adv of having +10 base to attributes comes into play when that attribute is respecced lower than when you trained the adv learning skill, so with a new character (with the 2 remaps) you can train a plan that reaps the benifits of adv learning V much sooner than an older character.
Chathe Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:08:00 - [40] The following are the recovery times for learning skills assuming you're got learning V already. days for level 1 skills to recoupe points if they're trained primary. ( ie perception for gunnery skills ) 0.16 0.89 5.05 28.57 161.62 days for level 3 skills to recoupe points if they're trained primary. ( ie perception for gunnery skills ) 0.32 1.79 10.10 57.14 323.23 this is per skill trained so ... it's up to you to decide weither or not you'll be playing the game in X months , or years if you will be then good on you, train them up if not then it's a waste of your time go train whatever you want, have fun playing. That being said 5's look pretty on E-mon / your character sheet, and there is perhaps something soothing knowing that you've done everything you can to get that training time down on your outpost building skill :P

Flametongue I'stari	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:35:00 - [41] Quote: I don't really care what you do with your character / but at least back up your claims with something that resembles math or logic. Thank you.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:46:00 - [42] If you put your plan into EVEmon, then use the implant tool to bump your stats by 1 at a time, you can see exactly how much time training learning will save you. For example, I can save 20 days with +1 intelligence and +1 memory. With tier 2 learning skills this would take me about 30 days to learn. So an increase of 10 days, not a savings. However that is for one year and year two might end up saving 10 days ore more.
Procopius	Posted - 2009.05.14 00:00:00 - [43] No matter how hard anyone tries to denigrate learning&attribute skills, I'm maxing mine out right now.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.14 15:18:00 - [44] Please don't try to have discussions with Pottsey on this subject. His argument is a congealed ball of false assumptions, unique circumstances, blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory, willful ignorance, and grand rationalizations. And as soon as you try to bring something concrete into the arguement like say...1st grade mathematics...he'll go into a long winded tale about how that doesn't matter. So, do yourself a favor. Don't start!
Lukriss	Posted - 2009.05.14 16:10:00 - [45] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Please don't try to have discussions with Pottsey on this subject. His argument is a congealed ball of false assumptions, unique circumstances, blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory, willful ignorance, and grand rationalizations. And as soon as you try to bring something concrete into the arguement like say...1st grade mathematics...he'll go into a long winded tale about how that doesn't matter. So, do yourself a favor. Don't start! Pottsey isn't wrong in his assumptions, he's not saying that they will have paid off in 2 days, what he's saying is that even if they haven't paid off, he's still glad he trained them because it gives you the "yay now i can do this"-feeling more often.
Vain Eldritch	Posted - 2009.05.15 15:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Lukriss Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Please don't try to have discussions with Pottsey on this subject. His argument is a congealed ball of false assumptions, unique circumstances, blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory, willful ignorance, and grand rationalizations. And as soon as you try to bring something concrete into the arguement like say...1st grade mathematics...he'll go into a long winded tale about how that doesn't matter. So, do yourself a favor. Don't start! Pottsey isn't wrong in his assumptions, he's not saying that they will have paid off in 2 days, what he's saying is that even if they haven't paid off, he's still glad he trained them because it gives you the "yay now i can do this"-feeling more often. I'm a completely new player - first serious attempt at a character was yesterday - and I intend to get the leaning skills to 5 ASAP. I intend to be here for many years to come and consider long term goals more important (EVEMon ftw).
Tremitry Darkstar Caldari Rule of Five The Junta	Posted - 2009.05.15 15:24:00 - [47] Pottsey actually makes really good points. Looking at skill point gain from a purely mathematical perspective in number of non-learning skill points gained, yes, it'd take several years in order to see a positive return from maxing out all of the learning skills. However, Pottsey's point is that maxing out all of the learning skills allows you more flexibility when it comes to skill planning. If a patch introduces new toys and skills, or modifies existing toys to rely on different skills (stealth bombers moving from cruise to siege missiles is an excellent example), then the benefit is more immediate. If you already spent the time to get all the learning skills to five (and I must admit, all of mine are 5), then you are shaving days off of your siege missile training time. The toons with learning skills to five were able to get into T3 ships faster then toons that did not max out learning. And when CCP releases a new Deathstar ship class (officially labeled as a "planetary mining ship") in a year or two, then the people with maxed out learning skills will be able to complete the proper skill training in a shorter amount of time. They might have less non-learning SP then other toons, but they'll be blowing up-err... "mining" planets much sooner. I will admit, that training all of the learning skills to five is very boring. In hindsight, I think it (the boredom) is a reason why I wound up not playing for a year or so. Now that I'm back into things, however, I appreciate how many days they're shaving off my skill plans. -Tremitry Darkstar
Lady Aja Caldari Eradication Project	Posted - 2009.05.16 01:54:00 - [48] I would happily say if you are ok with it... train youre basic learnign skills to lvl 5 and leave it there till youre ok to finish off adv learning skills to lvl 5. most of you will say nowai!!!! well... my character is 1 year 3 weeks old. has over 21m sp... and I am cool with that. mind youi do have +4 implants... but only in the two attributes i am skilling for. all my learning skills are 5/4 bar charisma... which is 4/3 ( gonna fix that soon so when i re-spec my attribs i can remidy the charisma problem.) in less than 10 days i will finish maxing out int/mem and followed by charisma 5 then adv 4...
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.16 08:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Please don't try to have discussions with Pottsey on this subject. His argument is a congealed ball of false assumptions, unique circumstances, blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory, willful ignorance, and grand rationalizations. You really are a sore loser aren't you? You only lost an argument on the web you don't need to get so worked up about it. We all make mistakes. What I have said in this thread has been true anyone with basic logic skills can see that and you're the one ignoring facts not me. I have clearly shown how and when in common situations adv5 is very worth it in far less than 3 or 2 years. In the past more than once I even showed you skill plans that ended up with days up to month's worth of skills that adv5 had and adv4 cannot get yet. But you ignored it even though it 100% proves what I said correct. There are no false assumptions you really can get skills due to adv5 that you would not have yet with adv4. Remember when I challenged you to look at all those skill plans with adv5 and it was impossible to get the same skillplan with adv4 without losing out on major skills. Proving that adv5 can make you end up better off. Yet you still ignore all that and then call me the one that has selective memory and wilful ignorance. Just look at my current skill plan I almost have 5 T3 skills maxed out yet the same plan with ad4 wouldn't even have started level 1 of the first T3 skill yet. Originally by: Gaius Sejanus And as soon as you try to bring something concrete into the arguement like say...1st grade mathematics...he'll go into a long winded tale about how that doesn't matter. I accept first grade math the problem is you do not. I even posted more then one skill plan that proved you wrong in the past and instead of using logic or math to prove me wrong, you just ignored it and called me names and fall back to your "blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory" argument. I am even going quote normally just for you this time as sometimes when I proved you wrong in the past and you liked to not count the post due to the way I quoted. The simple fact is I gave you skill plans that benefited massively due to adv5. You failed to use math to show adv4 could get the same skills. It wasn't me giving long winded tale about how math doesn't matter. You're the one that ignored the math and gives tales like "Please don't try to have discussions with Pottsey on this subject. His argument is a congealed ball of false assumptions, unique circumstances, blatant lies, hypothetical dream weaving, selective memory, willful ignorance, and grand rationalizations" the funny thing is everyone reading this thread can see who is right and wrong. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.05.16 10:26:00 - [50] Edited by: Estel Arador on 16/05/2009 10:26:44 No matter how often you post or how long you make your posts Pottsey, the facts remain: 1) Your way of calculating 'payoff' only applies to very specific cases and only gives a temporary advantage. It's not that with Adv IV you can't get those skills, just that it takes a tiny bit longer. 2) The commonly accepted and standard way of calculating payoff applies to everyone and gives a point after which Adv V has a permanent advantage over Adv IV. FREE! jumpclone service - over 200 locations!

Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.16 11:38:00 - [51] It's not always a temporary advantage as in my case it was a permanent advantage for years. Or the cap ship example I used to post. It was a temporary advantage for over 2 years at which point it pretty much turned into a permanent advantage as you hit the 3 year mark. With the amount of new skills that come out over time, games balances that change skills and just players changing plans due to game events like corps moving space the temporary advantage can easily last in the years timeframe. It is only specific cases that cause adv5 to be worth it but the specific cases happen a lot and are common. I agree adv5 is not worth it for everyone. But people like Gaius Sejanus seem to be in denial that adv5 has advantages and is worth it for lots of people. One of a few groups of people who are better off with adv4 are those with 100% static skill plans at least until 3 years pass but I don't believe the people with static skill plans outnumber those changing skill plans. Truth be told there is no easy way to measure how often adv4 ends up better and how often adv5 ends up better. Estel Arador said " 2) The commonly accepted and standard way of calculating payoff applies to everyone and gives a point after which Adv V has a permanent advantage over Adv IV." The problem is people give that advice and end up telling someone not to train adv5 when they could be better off with adv5. The accepted and standard way tells a lot of people they are better off with adv4 when the player's common situation means they would have been better off with adv5. Just because something is commonly accepted and standard it does not mean it's the best or correct way. A better way would be to give all the facts. If someone asks is adv5 worth it, tell them with a static skill plan payoff is x but under situations n, y, z you still benefit in less than 3 years with adv5. There is one thing we can both agree on. New players shouldn't jump right into adv5. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Deran Francks Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:40:00 - [52] Use EveMon, design a plan and use the ship/skill browser and the BattleClinic loadouts to kit out a ship. EveMon will then offer a bunch of suggestions to train some learning skills to bring your entire training time down. At least then, you're getting into the ships you want and are training your learning skills in the most efficient and unobtrusive way. It might not be ideal, but it avoids the three month "doing nowt" approach while you max out your learning skills.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.16 18:07:00 - [53] Quote: Just look at my current skill plan I almost have 5 T3 skills maxed out yet the same plan with ad4 wouldn't even have started level 1 of the first T3 skill yet. This is the poster-child for the kind of ridiculous nonsense Pottsey spouts in defense of his argument. Advanced 5s, granting an entire 1.65 skillpoints per minute over Adv4s has given you the ability to train 5 skills to level 5 faster than the other guy can even START training those skills? I mean, really now. Give up while you have some shred of intellectual credibility left.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.16 20:33:00 - [54] Edited by: Pottsey on 16/05/2009 20:34:02 It's not ridiculous nonsense is basic math and logic that I am still shocked you do not understand. I saved so many days on my skill plan due to adv5 that I had time to train up 5 of the T3 skills to level 5 before the same plan would have even started level 1 for the first T3 skill. Or in simple terms for you. If I never had adv5 and followed the same skill path with adv4 I would not have even got to the T3 skills yet. Very clearly adv5 gave me a massive advantage and has been more then worthwhile to train. But as per normal your skipping logic and math and just name calling. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.17 09:34:00 - [55] Quote: It's not ridiculous nonsense its basic math and logic No, it really is ridiculous nonsense, particularly as you didn't give the starting skill position for yourself and this hypothetical other person. Given that you didn't; the assumption is that your skills and the hypothetical other person are identical except for advanced 5s. For the other person to not even have STARTED training, while you're nearly maxed out, then you need to be making some kind of ludicrous assumption like you had cruiser 5 done when Apocrypha came out, and the hypothetical other person was at Cruiser 2 or something, and has spent the last 6 weeks playing catchup. Quote: I saved so many days on my skill plan due to adv5 that I had time to train up 5 of the T3 skills to level 5 before the same plan would have even started level 1 for the first T3 skill Ok. Prove it. Show these two skillplans. Two characters. Same attributes, same implants, same age, same skillplans, only difference being Adv4s vs Adv5s. You keep claiming that you've proved it. I've never seen this. So, I'm calling you out. Show a real full term skillplan for both sides that absolutely proves what you claim with real numbers. Quote: Just counting last year I saved and finished my skill plan about 17days faster due to adv5 over adv4. Quote: We all know what is coming next. You're going accuse me of not counting the time I took to train adv5 even though I did. Yes, that is the common argument, because it's true. You saved 17 days in a year. Well, that's great. Let's also assume that it's typical, and that you've had advanced 5s the whole time (impossible, since the skills didn't exist at the start, but we're going to pretend). Advanced 5s take about 11 weeks to train. That's 77 days. At 17 days per year, you need 4.5 years for that savings to overcome the time it took to get Adv5s in the first place. Quote: If I never had adv5 and followed the same skill path with adv4 I would not have even got to the T3 skills yet in fact I would be months behind in the same skill path. Prove it.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.17 10:51:00 - [56] Gaius Sejanus said " No, it really is ridiculous nonsense, particularly as you didn't give the starting skill position for yourself and this hypothetical other person." The starting point is the same both. Marauders and the Orca are two key points when they are bought out the old a plan is cancelled and a new plan started based on Marauders and Orcas both adv5 and adv4 start the new plans and cancel the old plans which are now obsolete. In the last year I only trained skills that came out after I got adv5 or skills that got changed due to game balances or new features so would have not been added instead of adv5. For example due to wormholes and the scanning changes I got the scan skills which I would never have got in the past. A one year skill plan made up of skills like that is roughly 17days faster per year with adv5. 17 days saved on the yearlong plan is almost enough time to train the 5 of the T3 skills to lvl 5 with adv5 while not even starting the T3 skills with adv4. Gaius Sejanus said " You saved 17 days in a year. Well, that's great. Let's also assume that it's typical, and that you've had advanced 5s the whole time (impossible, since the skills didn't exist at the start, but we're going to pretend). Advanced 5s take about 11 weeks to train. That's 77 days. At 17 days per year, you need 4.5 years for that savings to overcome the time it took to get Adv5s in the first place." This is the point where you are going wrong and do not understand the logic behind what I am saying. Just because it takes 4yaers to overcome to time spent on adv5 in the first place it does not mean the skill plan cannot be ahead due to adv5. I couldn't train cap ships skills instead of adv5. If cancel my old plan and spend a year on cap ships skills I finished the cap ship skill plan 17 days faster. If I spent 2 years on cap ships, Marauders and the Orca and T3 type skills I am well over 30days+ ahead in the skill plan with adv5 over adv4. Due to game balances, new situations and new skills I follow the above pattern. By the 3rd year I ended up 51ish days ahead. By the 4th year it will be 68 ish days. So at the point adv5 has hit what you call payback time I have become 2+ months ahead in my skill plan.In two year I have not hit payoff but I am over 1 month ahead in the main skill plan due to adv5. Any player that gets adv5 then changes to a new one year long skill plans for 1 year will save end the new plan about 17 days faster. Gaius Sejanus said "Ok. Prove it. Show these two skillplans. Two characters. Same attributes, same implants, same age, same skillplans, only difference being Adv4s vs Adv5s." I am not creating my year long skill plan that will take too long. I challenged you before to look at all the skills I have and come up with a plan to fit them in with adv4 faster than adv5 and it was impossible. Here is an example which you have ignored many times before. The player is in empire doing PvE he has zero interest in cap ships or PvP. He trains adv4 trains then some trade skills. The adv5 person is the same only instead of getting the trade skills they start with adv5 then plan to get the trade skills after. Wormholes come out getting the corp and player interested in PvP. The Player and corp moves to 0.0 for better wormholes and being in 0.0 they set up a POS and get intrested in cap ships and more PvP. Due to the in game situation changing the adv4 stops the old skill plan and make a new one based on cap ships. The adv5 of course is the same the stop the plan they had for after adv5 and reshift to cap ships. The new plan for both starts at about the same time as they both cancelled the old plan at the point the corp moved to 0.0and setup a POS. The plan goes something like ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.17 10:52:00 - [57] 1. Fuel Conservation V (7 days, 11 hours, 53 minutes, 35 seconds) 2. Fighters I (1 hour, 14 minutes, 43 seconds) 3. Fighters II (5 hours, 47 minutes, 58 seconds) 4. Fighters III (1 day, 8 hours, 48 minutes, 20 seconds) 5. Fighters IV (7 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes, 43 seconds) 6. Fighters V (43 days, 17 hours, 47 minutes, 19 seconds) 7. Capital Ships I (1 hour, 37 minutes, 54 seconds) 8. Capital Ships II (7 hours, 35 minutes, 54 seconds) 9. Capital Ships III (1 day, 18 hours, 59 minutes, 2 seconds) 10. Gallente Carrier I (1 hour, 37 minutes, 54 seconds) 11. Gallente Carrier II (7 hours, 35 minutes, 54 seconds) 12. Gallente Carrier III (1 day, 18 hours, 59 minutes, 2 seconds) 13. Gallente Carrier IV (10 days, 3 hours, 9 minutes, 18 seconds) 14. Gallente Carrier V (57 days, 7 hours, 29 minutes, 33 seconds) 15. Capital Ships IV (10 days, 3 hours, 9 minutes, 18 seconds) 16. Capital Ships V (57 days, 7 hours, 29 minutes, 33 seconds) 17. Jump Drive Operation V (18 days, 17 hours, 43 minutes, 59 seconds) 18. Jump Drive Calibration I (57 minutes, 37 seconds) 19. Jump Drive Calibration II (4 hours, 28 minutes, 19 seconds) 20. Jump Drive Calibration III (1 day, 1 hour, 17 minutes, 50 seconds) 21. Jump Drive Calibration IV (5 days, 23 hours, 6 minutes, 16 seconds) 22. Jump Drive Calibration V (33 days, 17 hours, 31 minutes, 12 seconds) 23. Jump Fuel Conservation I (51 minutes, 12 seconds) 24. Jump Fuel Conservation II (3 hours, 58 minutes, 30 seconds) 25. Jump Fuel Conservation III (22 hours, 29 minutes, 11 seconds) 26. Jump Fuel Conservation IV (5 days, 7 hours, 12 minutes, 14 seconds) 27. Jump Fuel Conservation V (29 days, 23 hours, 34 minutes, 25 seconds) 28. Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems I (1 hour, 2 minutes, 15 seconds) 29. Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems II (4 hours, 49 minutes, 59 seconds) 30. Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems III (1 day, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 16 seconds) 31. Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems IV (6 days, 10 hours, 38 minutes, 55 seconds) 32. Capital Remote Armor Repair Systems V (36 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes, 26 seconds) 37. Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration V (29 days, 3 hours, 51 minutes, 33 seconds) So after one year the adv5 person finishes the plan 17ish days before adv4. In actual fact the skill plan is longer than one year as above is just a snapshot. If the player then joins an alliance or his corp just gets bigger he might decide to go for Motherships, Dreads or other cap ships I pull even further ahead with adv5. So we end up adv4 has a few trade skills that adv5 does not have and no longer needs. adv5 has 17days of cap ships skills that adv4 does not have but needs and adv5 is still pulling ahead. As the player is spending his time in 0.0 in cap ships the cap ships skills are more of a benefit then trade skills. An alternative situation that is similar to the situation I am in although this is far less common then the cap ship example. The player is in empire doing PvE he has zero interest in cap ships for now. He trains adv4 then Cruise, Guided Missile Precision and Cruise Specialization for his Stealth bomber. The adv5 person is the same only instead starts with adv5. The devs rebalance the bomber. The 2+months on Cruise, Guided Missile Precision become useless as the player has no other cruise missiles ships. Adv4 now starts on the torp and torp Specialization skills. The adv5 skips the 3 Cruise skills and starts torp Specialization skills. After torps skills are done both adv5 and adv4 more to the cap ship plan due to the situations posted in example one. With both pilots swapping between the cap ships and Stealth bombers in game. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.17 11:00:00 - [58] Edited by: Pottsey on 17/05/2009 11:07:12 ""Prove it. And just for the sake of clarity, none of the following will be considered proof in any way, shape, or form:" The thing is I have already proved it many times before. I posted lots of math and you always ignore it then come up with the above rubbish. I have in the past posted lots of skill plans and game situations that show adv5 finishing the plan much faster than adv4. But you ignore it and either just calls me names or say I never post proof. Worse of all you do what you excuse me off. You never post facts or math yourself to prove me wrong you just say stuff like the above. Why dont you do what you tell me to do. Instead of calling me names post some facts to prove me wrong. EDIT:"Ok. Prove it. Show these two skillplans." I just noticed I had done that before you even asked me to. Post 38 "This is estimated roughly on one of my next year plan. I spend 2 months on Gallante T3 skills as I want a T3 drone ship. Another 2 months on missile skills due to the Stealth Bombe rebalance. Another 2 months Caldari T3 for a shield gang booster ship. I want to peak out my damage in the T3 crusier and as I never fly small ships in the past I never trained T2 medium turrets to level 5. So I add that skill which means another month. ThatÆs 7 months. Now add a few more skills that came out after I got adv5 or skills that I had no use for back then so would not have trained. In this case most likely the drone specialisation skills to level 5 will get added to the plan and in one year I have saved 17 ish days" The old plan stoped and new plan started with T3. The plan is one year long and ends 17 days faster with adv5. Do it your self. Look on http://ineve.net/skills/ for my attributes then do that one year plan with adv5 and adv4. There is no way what so ever adv4 is faster in 1 year. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.17 14:22:00 - [59] Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 17/05/2009 14:24:15 Yep, just like I thought. You can't do it. You grotesquely ignore crucial aspects of the situation to make your point. That's the selective memory I spoke of earlier. First flawed assumption: These two plans start at the same point. They don't. You're doing this random leap-off into a whole new set of skills, and ignoring everything that came before. Just like I've accused you of doing MANY TIMES. Nobody has ever denied that Adv5 trains faster than Adv4. Our point, which you go FAR out of your way to dismiss or ignore, is that you can't ignore the time spent maxxing out learning! Your new direction doesn't exist in a vacuum, much as you like to pretend that it does. So, second failed assumption: That I wouldn't notice what a strawman argument you've constructed, trying to pretend that everything before starting on capships is equal when that's just laughably false. Take this capital ship plan, and then stick Battleship 5 onto it for the Adv5 person. After all, the Adv4 guy had 11 weeks of training other stuff while Adv5 played catch up. Battleship 5 seems like a reasonable skill for the Adv4 to have, and the Adv 5 to not have. After all, the empire mission runner doesn't need Battleship 5 all that crucially, and it would be a prime cantidate skill to delay until later. Course, Mr. Adv4 has 11 weeks of training other stuff, so his later is already here. He got BS5. Now your 17 days ahead turns into 15 days behind. And that's not even factoring in the other skills that the Adv4 person trained in those extra 7 weeks. Without seeing the entire plan, maybe your Adv5 guy is stuck with repair systems 3, or hull upgrades 4, and our Adv4 person already had both of those topped out with all of his extra skill time. So, let's pack another 3 weeks that the Adv5 person is behind while he catches up to Adv4...and on and on and on. You lose. Twas ever so.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.17 15:46:00 - [60] Gaius Sejanu said "You lose. Twas ever so." No I haven't lost or been proven wrong you pointed out one situation where adv4 is better. But as I said sometimes adv4 is better that's not a problem. You pointed out that during the 11 weeks adv5 is training, adv4 could train the skill BS 5 skill which would help the cap ship plan go faster. But that's only one possible outcome. Just as likely perhaps more likely the adv4 spent those 11 weeks training skills that have nothing to do with the cap ship plan. Then the cap ship plan is faster with adv5. I never said adv5 is always better, the very opposite in fact I often say its not clear cut, sometimes adv4 works out better and sometimes adv5. So yes if the adv4 person spent time training BS5 then adv4 is better. If adv4 trained other skills instead not related to the cap skill plan which is perfectly possible then adv5 ends up better off for the cap ship plan. Proving one situation happens where adv4 is better does not mean the other situation when adv5 works out better never happens. Take the real skill plan I posted with T3. Show me how I could train is faster with adv4 with my character. It's impossible, that alone proves what I said is correct. The simple fact is the skill plan ends much faster with adv5 and I benefited from adv5 all in one year. Gaius Sejanu said "First flawed assumption: These two plans start at the same point. They don't." Yes they do start at the same time in my example. They do not always start at the same time. But sometimes they do and they do in my example. A game event caused the player to re-think and make a new skill plan. The new skill plans started due to this game event. It does not matter where you are in the old skill plan. Players do not always wait for old plans to finish before starting new plans. They stopped mid way though and start new plans very often. It's not flawed or selective memory. I made up a yearlong plan when T3 came out. The plan started due to T3 and wormholes. The plan started at the same time no matter if I had adv4 or adv5. Yes some players wouldn't start the new skill plan till the old plan has finished. Other players stop or cancel the old plan. Using my character with my T3 skill plan I am followed there is no way what so ever adv4 could finish the plan faster. That's not to adv4 can never work out better. Just in that situation adv5 was better. Gaius Sejanu said "You're doing this random leap-off into a whole new set of skills, and ignoring everything that came before." You mean just like the real situation in game of what I did and many other players do? Players do have unexpected random leap-off into a whole new set of skills. Players do drastically change skill plans. Players do ignore old skill plans and start new skill plans. Players have many times ignored what came before and moved into cap ships or other new skill sets. Not all players mind you but it happens a lot. Gaius Sejanu said " or something along those lines just so you can claim that the Adv5 not having BS5 is a bad example...it's not a bad example, it just makes your example look bad. Don't confuse the two.!" Changing an example to a different example where adv4 works out better does not mean the other example where adv5 is better cannot happen. Don't confuse the two. Yes in your changed example where bs5 is done instead of trade skills adv4 is better but that by its self does not mean the example I posted with trade skills cannot happen. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2

Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2009.05.17 17:53:00 - [61] I trained all my basics ones and Learning to V, the advanced ones to IV. Doubt I'll ever train the Advanced ones to V, would take too long to get any benefit out of it. I'd recommend getting the basics to V (especially those for your playstyle) and getting +3 or +4 implants after a while. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Ttochpej	Posted - 2009.05.18 07:54:00 - [62] I have all learning maxed out, partly because I want to try and beat my bother with skill points and he started a while before I started eve, I haven't spent the money to get +5 implants yet
Tremitry Darkstar Caldari Rule of Five The Junta	Posted - 2009.05.18 19:29:00 - [63] Edited by: Tremitry Darkstar on 18/05/2009 19:32:00 Edited by: Tremitry Darkstar on 18/05/2009 19:30:20 Gaius, Pottsey actually makes a decent point even if (s)he doesn't explain it very well. The point Pottsey is making is that training the advanced learning skills to 5 now allows your character to quickly adapt to new changes in the game faster. When looking at it from this perspective, it's not so much about how many SP's you need before it becomes beneficial, but has to do more with the changes that CCP makes to the game. If you're looking at the total benefit from a brand new character's perspective, then yes, it will take a few years before the benefits of training the advanced skills to 5 are seen. No one in this thread is disputing that. However, as CCP tweaks skills and ships, or even adds new skills and ships to the game, then the character that spent the time to train up their advanced learning skills to 5 will naturally train these new skills much more quickly. If your goal today is to create a new toon and fly battleships really well, then it would not be in your interest to train the advanced learning skills to 5. However, if your goals are continually changing (due to CCP tweaks/additions, new corp roles you have to fit, or just on a whim), then getting the advanced skills to 5 (along with Cybernetics 5) will be in your best interest. You'll no longer be looking at your skill training from character creation to 4+ years out. You'll be looking at your skill training at a more flexible viewpoint. If you want to be using T4, T5, or Tn ships, or any other new/changed ships as soon as they come out, then training your advanced learning skills to 5 is worth it since you don't know what the your skill plan is going to be yet. TLDR: Static goals: don't bother training advanced learning skills to max. Variable goals: maxing out your stats is a good idea as you will be able to train faster when your training goals change for whatever reasons (nerfs, buffs, or new skills/ships/modules). -Tremitry Darkstar
Bladen Kerst Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.18 21:02:00 - [64] The advantage you get in that case scenario is negligible These days every new feature CCP releases comes prenerfed and chances are you will have to wait another half a year after you have trained skills to benefit from it, like with Black Ops lol Anyway you don't cease to amaze me people.. you worry about 4% tactical advantage in skill training speed for new features, yet you don't care about disadvantage of spending 2 months out of your first half year for nothing.
Chathe Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.18 21:33:00 - [65] best case you save 21.47 day of training in a year , worst case you save 13.52 days of training in a year. you get a much larger quantity of skillpoints over the year by having a decent skill plan ~ 10 million skill point difference in a year. it takes 323 days to pay off a single advanced 5. 861 to pay off all but cha ( who does cha ? ) ( my opinion ) A new player should not do the advanced 5's until they're at a point with there character that they want to train a skill with more than a 3x multiplier. At that point they should take a serious look ( my opinion )
Lagruna Zegata	Posted - 2009.05.19 07:27:00 - [66] But the problem is if you wait too long to train the adv V's you will gain less potential benefit from it. The earlier they are trained, the better....but admittedly the boredom factor can be immense.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.05.19 08:39:00 - [67] Chathe said "it takes 323 days to pay off a single advanced 5. 861 to pay off all but cha ( who does cha ? )" I did and benefited a lot from it. adv5 cha saved me a lot of time on my skill plans. But new players most likely shouldn't get it unless they expect CCP to bring out a lot of cha skills which they might for WiS which looks to be highly based around Cha and trading. It's a bit of a gamble but there looks to be a lot of trade skills and skills to hire people who work for you in shops. I would guess the speaking to people, hiring people, new types of trading are all Cha based. So if people think they might get into WiS they might benfit from adv5 cha. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Eireen Harvenheit Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.19 09:01:00 - [68] Edited by: Eireen Harvenheit on 19/05/2009 09:02:26 I'm still fairly new character i'd say (only about 8 months). And yes i trained all learnings to lvl5. Eve is not like i missed something out. Yes my friends are dealing more dmg and are able to tank more. So yes, i knew payback is in terms of years. But learning is like the most important skill section imo. It allows you to train faster. That is most essential in eve. So to hint new characters whether to take adv learning to 5. My asnwer is : if you are ok with fact you will have to play very long to get payback and if you can bear 2 and half months for all of them to get them from lvl4 to lvl5, then go for it. I've been there and tried. Training them to lvl5 is suffering when you see everyone around flying new and new things and do better and better but you're training something with "no effect". It is discouraging. Brace yourself if you go down that road.
KiwiMatt	Posted - 2009.05.22 04:37:00 - [69] When all is said and done, there are 2 main times when you might like to train all adv learning to lvl5. 1. Where you KNOW you are in it for the long term and will be playing for at least 4-5 years 2. Where your RL limits the time you can play online, work trips, holidays etc - so setting adv's from 4-5 won't annoy you too much. MY situation is a mix of both - the day adv skills came out I trained nothing but them until they were done, then carried on with eve, knowing I had fallen behind a bit, but not really caring. I was only managing to get on for 20 mins or so at a time, so not needing to fly around in a new shiny spaceship as fast as possible at that point. Now so many years later, by ANY payoff time calculation imagineable, I am ahead and always will be, and have been for a while... about 2 years and yes, it is nice to know that with the +5's in my head I will always be accumulating sp's at a high rate. At those "measly" 1.6sp's a minute extra I am now passed the point of breaking even and surpassed it by about 1.5M sp's - and growing every minute... So regardless of weather you use Pottesys convoluted scenarios's which work for him, or purely mathmatical calc's of others - there IS a payoff point at some stage and if it floats your boat.. then go for it. my 2 isk worth
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.22 08:05:00 - [70] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 22/05/2009 08:07:41 <Deleted again. Dang this is an old Lazarus thread that I've already replied to twice.>



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