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Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.05.07 08:18:00 - [31] As counter intuitive as it seems piracy has little to do with artists, it's the content distribution industry that's suffering. For decades artists needed them to get their art to the masses, but that's not the case anymore. Nowadays it's much, much cheaper to set up your own recording studio, worldwide distribution is easy and free and word of mouth advertising through YouTube videos or message boards is easier than it's ever been. Musicians don't need record labels anymore, and the labels know it. This push to regulate the internet is really just an attempt by record labels and other distributors to control a new distribution medium, to keep themselves from becoming obsolete. Of course they do it in the name of artists, the same artists who get less than $1 from every $20 CD their label sells. Story's the same with other forms of media. Some companies are trying to adapt to the internet with successes like Steam and Hulu, the rest are just flailing wildly at the courts and politicians because they're unwilling to accept that times have changed.
Smalum Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.07 09:33:00 - [32] As a musician i am upset about how the record industry lobbyists try to take away the best tool for promotion ever created. As already been stated, they are becomming obsolete and are just trying to fight for their survival, but to make it sound like it's in the name of the artists is simply pathetic. Roger Wallis (he's a professor who have done a load of studies about how technological advancements influences the media industries) explained during the PB trial: the ammount of money going directly to the artists has increased significantly because eventho the labels make less money by record sales, the income of concerts have drasticly increased. Less than 10% of the record sales income goes to the artists, but about half of the concert incomes goes to the artists. As an artist i am more interested in traveling around and play/meet ppl rather than them owning a cd of me (which in that case i rather sell to them in person anyway), and i honestly think most artists would agree. As a consumer/private person i am upset about how they want to transform the greatest source of information and cultural share (and no not just illegal) into some kind of pay-per-view cabel-tv-like network.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:02:00 - [33] Ok lets break it down... on why Adobe is priced correctly... ( Figures below are not factually correct, but just a glimmer in the cost at producing said product ) Adobe CS 4 Master Collection ( Time frame from concept to live product 18 months ) 60 Programmers @ 75k $ USD a year - 6,750,000 Million $ USD 30 Artists @ 75k $ USD a year - 3,375,000 Million $ USD 15 Managers @ 100k $ USD a year - 2,250,000 Million $ USD 20 Tech Support@ 50k $ USD a year - 1,500,000 Million $ USD Health Ins. @ 750k $ USD a year - 1,125,000 Million $ USD Computer Fee's @ 100k $ USD a year - 150,000 Thousand $ USD Hosting Fee's @ 100k $ USD a year - 150,000 Thousand $ USD Advert Fee's @ 500k $ USD a year - 750,000 Thousand $ USD Distro Fee's @ 1 M $ USD a Year - 1,250,000 Million $ USD Total Cost - 16,175,000 Million Dollars $ USD Product Cost - 600$ ( Single User License ) Product Retail - 750-850$ ( Single User License ) Profit - 150-250$ ( For all Intensive purposes we will use 200$ ) 16,175,000/200= 80,875 Copies. While this doesnt seem like alot of product, you have to think at the Complete Volume of sales, and maybe Adobe's Volume sales isnt that High as they serve only very small community of user's.
Akutarou Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Taedrin OR, if you don't want to pay adobe hundreds of USD, you can go to www.gimp.org. Their student/academic deals are pretty good, though. Ç200 for the four usual suspects is not bad. Of course, some academic deals are better than others and Adobe's academic pricing is probably a direct answer to software piracy. Originally by: Taedrin I am personally of the opinion that if you want to rebel against profit mongering corporations, then instead of pirating their software, you should get open source alternatives. Depends on what kind of applications we're talking about, in my case. I don't know any good open source alternative to Reason so I emptied my wallet. When it comes to academic writing, however, I haven't found a better alternative - free or premium - than Latex (funky capital usage be damned) or Xetex, rather. The fontspec package is better than sliced bread - I ended up typesetting the complete EVE Black Mountain story because of it, just for kicks . It is as flexible as you want it to be and user powered. Also, free.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Xelios intitle:index.of mp3 filetype:torrent Looks like Google is guilty of copyright infringement too As a Former DB Admin for Google I can attest to you that Google takes its fare part in removing Pirate Torrents from its DB.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon droll I don't think this word means what you think it means. Actually, after looking it up, it seems you are right. It definitely doesn't mean what I thought it did. Odd. Well, thanks for the heads up, hahahah ... Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
Kappas. Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:34:00 - [37] Originally by: EliteSlave While this doesnt seem like alot of product, you have to think at the Complete Volume of sales, and maybe Adobe's Volume sales isnt that High as they serve only very small community of user's You can't argue the fact that their sales of new products would go up vastly if they offered it for significantly less. There are thousands and thousands of students that can't afford to pay $600 for a computer program (let's face it; every university as part of some media studies or programming use flash), so they are left with either the choice to get an old, out dated version or pirate it. Conspiracy theorists say adobe make it easy to pirate it so more students will use it, go to their employer saying it's the only program they can use and they'll (the employer) have to buy multiple copies of it. __________________
Akutarou Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Kappas. You can't argue the fact that their sales of new products would go up vastly if they offered it for significantly less. There are thousands and thousands of students that can't afford to pay $600 for a computer program (let's face it; every university as part of some media studies or programming use flash), so they are left with either the choice to get an old, out dated version or pirate it. Try reading my previous post. Photoshop + Illustrator + InDesign + Acrobat for Ç200 (academic pricing) isn't $600. Stand alone Photoshop seems to start at Ç170. Admittedly, this is for Europe it seems and I didn't check what other regions are eligible for the discount. Linky On the other hand I don't know for how long their academic pricing has been available. Maybe I didn't look hard enough before.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.07 15:38:00 - [39] Edited by: EliteSlave on 07/05/2009 15:40:40 Originally by: Kappas. Originally by: EliteSlave While this doesnt seem like alot of product, you have to think at the Complete Volume of sales, and maybe Adobe's Volume sales isnt that High as they serve only very small community of user's You can't argue the fact that their sales of new products would go up vastly if they offered it for significantly less. There are thousands and thousands of students that can't afford to pay $600 for a computer program (let's face it; every university as part of some media studies or programming use flash), so they are left with either the choice to get an old, out dated version or pirate it. Conspiracy theorists say adobe make it easy to pirate it so more students will use it, go to their employer saying it's the only program they can use and they'll (the employer) have to buy multiple copies of it. Really depends on what their investors set for their pricing. And if they need to cover any other budget downfalls with said money. Also, Academia students can get Academic pricing which is usually in the very cheap area, Like in my area, the local community college, sells the student photoshop which is ( CSM4 ) For 75$ USD. But you get a silly ( Adobe Watermark ) in the lower right hand corner, ie: if you see my Signature's original file, before i used MS Paint to crop it out, you would see the water mark. But to most people that are not students, would not be happy with a watermark in their work, and thus would goto the internets to find a pirate copy, hence " The Pirate Bay ". But what they dont understand is if you want full functionality with out watermarks is well, you gotta pay the retail price just like every other joe schmoe.
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.05.07 17:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Mr Reeth Ahhh... nothing like the "they're rich so I have a RIGHT to steal from them" argument. Spoken like a true middle class bigot. Well done sir. As a poet and musician who makes **** all money from it i have no problem with file sharing. It really has no negative impact on me. I have no problem with people downloading our music or reading my work without paying for it. If they care and like it they will buy it or support us by going to a gig. Personally i never download anything i could afford to buy. If ever download an album its purely to see if i like it. If i listen to it more than once i will always buy it, becasue i love music i want to support the artist. The same with games, i never use pirate video games becasue i want to support the devs i want them to be able to make more great games. I will try to by it from a direct download service so 100% of my money goes to the devs and not the money grabbing distributors. I believe 100% that file sharing helps the media industry. The on the short term it is easy say it may harm it,and it does do short term damage and limits immediate financial return, but in the end it will help the industry grown and the art to spread. Give more rewards to the artists and less to the distributors, who right now have a stranglehold on the distribution and leech off artist's hard work. Kazang

EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.07 18:08:00 - [41] No you are stealing, Did you ask the Artist for permission to "Preview" his entire album? Did you ask the Devs to preview their software? If the answer is No, then you have stolen. Its Clear cut and simple.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.07 19:46:00 - [42] Originally by: EliteSlave Ok lets break it down... on why Adobe is priced correctly... ( Figures below are not factually correct, but just a glimmer in the cost at producing said product ) Adobe CS 4 Master Collection ( Time frame from concept to live product 18 months ) 60 Programmers @ 75k $ USD a year - 6,750,000 Million $ USD 30 Artists @ 75k $ USD a year - 3,375,000 Million $ USD 15 Managers @ 100k $ USD a year - 2,250,000 Million $ USD 20 Tech Support@ 50k $ USD a year - 1,500,000 Million $ USD Health Ins. @ 750k $ USD a year - 1,125,000 Million $ USD Computer Fee's @ 100k $ USD a year - 150,000 Thousand $ USD Hosting Fee's @ 100k $ USD a year - 150,000 Thousand $ USD Advert Fee's @ 500k $ USD a year - 750,000 Thousand $ USD Distro Fee's @ 1 M $ USD a Year - 1,250,000 Million $ USD Total Cost - 16,175,000 Million Dollars $ USD Product Cost - 600$ ( Single User License ) Product Retail - 750-850$ ( Single User License ) Profit - 150-250$ ( For all Intensive purposes we will use 200$ ) 16,175,000/200= 80,875 Copies. While this doesnt seem like alot of product, you have to think at the Complete Volume of sales, and maybe Adobe's Volume sales isnt that High as they serve only very small community of user's. Now let me point something out. Bolded is what ADOBE Sells it for. THATS THE PROFIT THEY MAKE. The 150-200-250 is what the RETAILER MAKES. 16,175,000 / 600 = 2696 (Rounding Up) copies. Suddenly not so much is it?. And that doesn't include how much they get paid by companies for company wide Licenses. The only accurate thing in your post was Originally by: EliteSlave ( Figures below are not factually correct, but just a glimmer in the cost at producing said product ) ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Adam C Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.05.07 20:05:00 - [43] yarr well put op
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.05.07 21:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Blane Xero Now let me point something out. Bolded is what ADOBE Sells it for. THATS THE PROFIT THEY MAKE. The 150-200-250 is what the RETAILER MAKES. 16,175,000 / 600 = 2696 (Rounding Up) copies. Suddenly not so much is it?. And that doesn't include how much they get paid by companies for company wide Licenses. The only accurate thing in your post was Originally by: EliteSlave ( Figures below are not factually correct, but just a glimmer in the cost at producing said product ) lol he thought it cost $600 to burn a disc and get a machine to produce a box. Adobe are rolling in money, hence they bought macromedia a while ago.
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.05.07 22:12:00 - [45] Edited by: Xelios on 07/05/2009 22:14:21 Don't buy CD's from artists signed with the RIAA, go to their concerts instead, buy t-shirts or other merch from them. The RIAA doesn't deserve a penny, much less 95% of the cost of a CD. The world will be a much better place without them. This is how music will be treated in the information age. Also, Originally by: Blane Xero 16,175,000 / 600 = 2696 (Rounding Up) copies. It's actually ~27,000 copies, still not much when you consider it's being sold world wide.
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2009.05.07 22:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Xelios It's actually ~27,000 copies, still not much when you consider it's being sold world wide. It's even less if you consider that a lot of the modules/code will be and was reused from other projects. But nobody said prices have to be "fair".
Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.05.07 22:58:00 - [47] Originally by: Cpt Placeholder It's even less if you consider that a lot of the modules/code will be and was reused from other projects. But nobody said prices have to be "fair". Except for the consumers. We are telling companies to make their prices fair or we will get it another way, usually for free. _________________
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.07 23:24:00 - [48] Originally by: Xelios Edited by: Xelios on 07/05/2009 22:14:21 Don't buy CD's from artists signed with the RIAA, go to their concerts instead, buy t-shirts or other merch from them. The RIAA doesn't deserve a penny, much less 95% of the cost of a CD. The world will be a much better place without them. This is how music will be treated in the information age. Also, Originally by: Blane Xero 16,175,000 / 600 = 2696 (Rounding Up) copies. It's actually ~27,000 copies, still not much when you consider it's being sold world wide. My bad. Must have missed a Zero somewhere. But like you said, compared to his, thats **** in the wind. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
FOl2TY8 Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.05.08 00:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Kulmid Originally by: Cpt Placeholder It's even less if you consider that a lot of the modules/code will be and was reused from other projects. But nobody said prices have to be "fair". Except for the consumers. We are telling companies to make their prices fair or we will get it another way, usually for free. So people that are willing to steal are allowed to dictate what is fair? ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Onus Mian Amarr Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.05.08 01:26:00 - [50] More flimsy excuses to detract from that fact thaat whatever slant you put on its still stealing to download something without paying that that requires purchase to legally own a copy without. ---- Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams

Kulmid Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.05.08 03:17:00 - [51] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Originally by: Kulmid Originally by: Cpt Placeholder It's even less if you consider that a lot of the modules/code will be and was reused from other projects. But nobody said prices have to be "fair". Except for the consumers. We are telling companies to make their prices fair or we will get it another way, usually for free. So people that are willing to steal are allowed to dictate what is fair? If stealing bread was a problem throughout the world, I would theorize that the risk of punishment/the punishment for stealing it is worth it over just paying for the cost of bread. Since bread theft is not a problem throughout the world, I would say that the price of bread is fair/worth it. I'm not saying that thieves should decide what is fair/what isn't fair. Just simply saying that if theft of a product is a problem, its a sign that the product is not worth the cost. _________________
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.08 04:01:00 - [52] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Originally by: Kulmid Except for the consumers. We are telling companies to make their prices fair or we will get it another way, usually for free. So people that are willing to steal are allowed to dictate what is fair? If the risk and costs associated with being caught stealing are acceptable in comparison to the costs associated with purchasing all of your music from FYE/BestBuy/whatever... absolutely. It's a damn smart business decision. Why do you think everyone steals their music and movies? For the rush and thrill? lol Those of us that have no qualms saying 'yes, we steal' seems like such a TERRIBLEPANICOMG to everyone, but remember, if flat out criminal activity was in the best interest of the recording label, they would make the same decision. Smart but criminal decisions: Just as popular with consumers as it is with large corporations. Welcome to unbridled capitalism. Law doesn't matter, only $$$ matters. ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf***er.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.08 04:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Onus Mian More flimsy excuses to detract from that fact thaat whatever slant you put on its still stealing to download something without paying that that requires purchase to legally own a copy without. Hi, i steal **. Me <--- I do Flimsy excuses are for the flimsy minded. Some of us know exactly what we are doing and why we are doing it. Illegal? Look very closely at me and tell me where you see that i give a . The global market has spoken and the people have told the RIAA/MPAA/whomever what we think of their profits and price gouging. They can cry and kick and scream but at the end of the day the bottom line is, what are THEY going to do about it? -Try to stop the flood by sticking their fingers in the dike? OR -take a smart approach and restructure their business model before they go the way of the dodo. ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf*er.
Atomos Darksun Damage Incorporated.	Posted - 2009.05.08 04:26:00 - [54] I'm curious as to how many times the people who are screaming "IT'S STEALING!" have broken the law themselves. Speeding, drugs, cutting off that b@stard from the flea market, it's all the same. All you're stealing is the value assigned to some electricity. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... CONVERT TO LINKIFICATION! http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.08 04:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Atomos Darksun I'm curious as to how many times the people who are screaming "IT'S STEALING!" have broken the law themselves. Speeding, drugs, cutting off that b@stard from the flea market, it's all the same. All you're stealing is the value assigned to some electricity. Or one much closer to home in many cases; Lending a friend a music CD, and him burning it to his computer. By everyone elses logic you broke the law lending him it ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Akutarou Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.08 07:29:00 - [56] Well if you want to get in numbers I'd be very interested to know how much of the shelf price of a CD goes into PR nowadays. Since the songs aren't meant to have a shelf-life (make that 'radio life') longer than a month or so (that's why 99% of many radio stations is easy listening crap that doesn't hold a candle to earlier music) there's a small timeframe during which you will have to sell a lot, hence all the PR. Lose the PR budget and how much is left? [The irony being, of course, that some of those 'classics' we listen to today were somewhat of the easy listening kind during their days. On the other hand listen to dynamics of the sound, harmonies etc and todays radio songs come off as baby pop in most cases. In my opinion, the only area where have actually gained ground is within the electronic music field. Note: Some of this is subjective...] Everyone I know has a computer new enough to run most audio software needed to record/compose/[add preferred method of making music]. For around $1000 (can be done for much less) you will be able to purchase both the software and the hardware needed and today the standard is high even on lower end applications. If I was serious about making and selling music, rather than try to get a contract I'd do it all myself and only sell via download. Audio engineers are (or should be) crying blood because most of the time they have to push the "make it go LOUD"-button squashing any dynamics in the original recording. And this I have to pay for? I wouldn't even download that for free. Luckily there are those who have a passion for music, both artists and record companies/distributors. Only those aren't the ones you hear/see in most cases.
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.08 08:29:00 - [57] Edited by: Sleepkevert on 08/05/2009 08:29:50 Originally by: Akutarou Audio engineers are (or should be) crying blood because most of the time they have to push the "make it go LOUD"-button squashing any dynamics in the original recording. And this I have to pay for? I wouldn't even download that for free. This. It still isn't a (valid) reason to start pirating though but it is definately a reason for me as well to steer around a lot of the music these days. There are some good albums / artists out there with decent masters though. _ Add your own line!
Ranik Sandaris Caldari The Centurions Eternus Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.08 09:24:00 - [58] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Mr Reeth Ahhh... nothing like the "they're rich so I have a RIGHT to steal from them" argument. points at my resently made post. If you ****ers paid for your games maybe we artists wouldn't be losing our jobs How about you start making some decent games, instead of things with a higher number on the end? Zoom Zoom
Calvin Firenze Minmatar Titan Space Corporation Parallax.	Posted - 2009.05.08 13:56:00 - [59] I think I've paid for maybe 10% of the music in my library. This might sound like a poor excuse, but if artists would stop putting out **ty music I might be a little more encouraged to buy the whole cd as opposed to downloading the couple of songs I want. I recently had a DMCA violation that my ISP caught. Apparently, if you have DVD's, its illegal to rip them to your computer as an avi file to watch them on your computer because you're changing the original format. In the same breath I was informed that its not illegal to make an iso of your pc games to burn them later. ing ****ed.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.08 14:06:00 - [60] Originally by: Calvin Firenze I think I've paid for maybe 10% of the music in my library. This might sound like a poor excuse, but if artists would stop putting out **ty music I might be a little more encouraged to buy the whole cd as opposed to downloading the couple of songs I want. I recently had a DMCA violation that my ISP caught. Apparently, if you have DVD's, its illegal to rip them to your computer as an avi file to watch them on your computer because you're changing the original format. In the same breath I was informed that its not illegal to make an iso of your pc games to burn them later. ing ****ed. You got a DMCA violation because you were transfering the DVD's to friends... not because you ripped the DVD to store on your PC. your entire arguement is the usual " A friend gave me 10 billion ISK now CCP made me negative 10 billion isk in the wallet !!!, when in fact you bought the isk"



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