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aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.07 23:59:00 -
[1]
I don't think that the current missile mechanics are balanced. Lets look at an example:
Raven (not moving) vs. Mega (not moving) at 5km.
Lets ignore resistances, as I don't think that they are particularly relevant in this scenario.
Mega fires blasters (Void L), Raven launches torps (Rage).
Here's the fun part: Mega's average dps is what you'd expect from skills, module info, and ammo specs. You'll get your wrecking shots, and your "you somehow managed to miss/graze the barn you were shooting at." (Caldari BS's are redonculously ginormous, but not the point here).
Because the explosion radius on torps (especially Rage) is ridiculous, the Raven is only doing 62% (400m radius of Mega / 650m radius of torp explosion) of it's ideal dps.
This is reasonable, the mega would fit web to make sure that he can hit me. It's only fair that the Raven should have to fit something as well. So, I add a painter (at expense to my buffer / tank). With _perfect_ skills, the Raven can paint him to 650m (with best named or T2 paint). Training a level 5 skill to 5 seems a bit much just to fit a ship of the same class, but lets continue.
Suddenly, the Mega decides to orbit the Raven at his/her optimal. It's double platted and Trimark'd, so it cruises at a commanding 116 m/s. Unfortunately that's 24.5 m/s faster than the explosion velocity of the Raven's torps. The Raven's dps suddenly drops by 26.8% ( (116 m/s - 91.5 m/s) / 91.5 m/s).
Then, the Mega turns on its afterburner (I suppose you *could* fit one). It can now cruise at 306 m/s and orbit at ~207 - 250 m/s. Now the Raven's dps from torps has dropped to nearly 0. The Raven puts a T2 webifer on the Mega to drop its velocity to somewhere close to the magic 91.5 m/s (explosion velocity).
At this point, we get to find out how noobish the Raven pilot is. If the Raven's fit for tank, it's now a smoldering wreck. You can't hope to tank another pvp fit BS in a Raven less two of those precious mid slots. If he fit for buffer, has no point, and no speed mod, he has lost ~25k effective HP off of his ship by swapping extenders / resists for web & paint. The result, he still goes boom.
True, the Raven can fit 4 damage mods in its lows. However, it needs a DC II for an increased buffer (otherwise it'd go boom much faster). Also, to fit the last two high slots, it'll need a fitting mod of some sort (usually a co-proc or PDS II). And a Mega w/ 2 MFS IIs = a Raven w/ 3 BCS IIs dps wise (including drone dps, of course). So there really isn't a clear advantage.
My point is, missiles got nerfed a bit too much with the nano nerf. Having to fit paint to hit things is reasonable. So is fitting web. However, it gimps fittings too much to fit both. And that's just torps. IMO, all of the missiles (and most of the boats designed for them) are in poor shape atm.
Personally, I like that fact that paint has a use in the game now. But, it'd be more reasonable if you only needed to train Signature Focusing to 4 in order to hit appropriately sized ships (e.g. torps vs. Mega). I'd like to see flight time decrease (and compensated with higher velocity), and a fair increase in explosion velocity. The Mega (platted and Trimark'd mind you) from the example could outrun Rage HAMs with an _afterburner_. That's simply ridiculous.
As a closing remark, I do fly both of these ships. And just as importantly, I've got the skills to fit all of the usual T2 modules / weapons / drones. Flame on if you must. To be fair, I feel a bit whinish re-reading what I wrote. There's a freebie for you.
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Flame on. |
Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:59:00 -
[2]
Yes T2 ammo isn't very good, thats nothing new. However T1/faction Torps work fine against BS. What is needed is a revision of T2 Ammmo (Turrets and Missiles) and not a rebalancing of the Missile system.
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
(Douglas Adams) |
Great Artista
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:17:00 -
[3]
OP, you think torpedoes are bad?
Rockets don't even in theory out damage their gun counterparts. Or even tie them. When fighting against frigates, most of the damage is lost to the explosion speed. One can easily outrun rockets too whenever needed. 30 rockets per launcher means you'll reload at every fight, same problem as the AC's had, remember? Cuts down the pitifull damage even more.
Rocket specialized ships (true rocket specs; maledicion, vengeance) are armor tankers, they simply can't fit 5 BCU, like missileships in general can, in order to deal same damage as the gun counterparts.
Fix is needed ASAP, rockets have been useless for a long, long time.
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:18:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Rahjadan Shardur
Yes T2 ammo isn't very good, thats nothing new. However T1/faction Torps work fine against BS. What is needed is a revision of T2 Ammmo (Turrets and Missiles) and not a rebalancing of the Missile system.
I'll agree with you that most T2 ammo is garbage (I happen to like Void). But, even with faction ammo, the example Mega can mitigate nearly 100% of the missle damage with its AB. Even against Faction HAMs. That's garbage. The explosion velocity is too low across the board. Supercapitals can "speed tank" Citadel torps.
You do have a point, with T1 / faction torps you _only_ lose 12.2% of your dps firing at a stationary Mega. So, it at least doesn't require a painter.
I can't bring myself to fit Rage missiles. The only thing they can reliably damage are POSs. I'd rather not fork out the isk to spew them continuously for a couple hours.
The great thing about the Javelins used to be their reduced explosion radius. You could actually hit all stationary BS for full damage. I really miss those.
I would like to see T2 ammo get some love across the board. But as I don't shoot anything but hybrids & missiles, I can't really argue what type of love that should be.
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Flame on. |
aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Great Artista
OP, you think torpedoes are bad?
Rockets don't even in theory out damage their gun counterparts. Or even tie them. When fighting against frigates, most of the damage is lost to the explosion speed. One can easily outrun rockets too whenever needed. 30 rockets per launcher means you'll reload at every fight, same problem as the AC's had, remember? Cuts down the pitifull damage even more.
Rocket specialized ships (true rocket specs; maledicion, vengeance) are armor tankers, they simply can't fit 5 BCU, like missileships in general can, in order to deal same damage as the gun counterparts.
Fix is needed ASAP, rockets have been useless for a long, long time.
I agree. Rockets suck too. I've yet to find a use for them, and not for lack of trying. I ended up opting for the raptor over the crow, harpy over the hawk. It's not exactly fun being chased by Warrior IIs and not being about to pop them.
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Flame on. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:23:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 08/05/2009 01:23:41
Nobody fits an AB on a BS.
Don't use Rage if you don't know why you're using Rage.
There is no problem with torps. Torp damage is unchanged in practice since QR against BS, BCs and most cruisers - because solo Raven is silly, the gangs that Raven flies in have web support and torps need painter support as much as they did pre-QR.
Rockets, however, are rubbish.
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:35:00 -
[7]
I like having AB on BS now and then. It helps get from one side of the fight in a decent amount of time without taking grid away from your weapons. But, that's only when I know I'm going to be able to warp in at range. At any rate, typhoon can speed tank torps without a speed mod at all (78% damage reduction from velocity, and additional 29% from being very small even vs faction torps, nets 84% reduction). That's more than a little silly.
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Flame on. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 02:05:00 -
[8]
Actually the only issue i have with missiles in general is that some ship types can mitigate most of their "missile counter" damage moving with their own (non-ab) speed.
For example vaga can mitigate quite a bit of missile damage just by moving around. Ofc vaga in this case is ok (was just an example) as its "special ability" is higher speed. But problems arise when rockets cant deal full damage to non-ab ceptors or torps cant deal full damage to non-ab BS (full damage after sig reduction that is).
IMO:
missile should deal full damage to non-ABing ship of its own class (so small missiles vs frigs, med missiles vs cruisers, large vs BS) EXCLUDING sig damage reduction (so yeah sig should reduce damage dependant on ship vs missile)
With above in mind domi (iirc its radius doesnt give protection from torps) should be always hit for full damage from normal torps even when moving at its max speed. If it uses AB, velocity implants, snakes etc - damage should be ofc reduced.
Phoon on the other hand will get base damage reduced (sig) but should still get hit for (almost) full damage when it moves with its base speed (almost full due to higher speeds of minnie BS).
Same for all other missile types, ESPECIALLY rockets (which just fail horribly at their job).
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Actually the only issue i have with missiles in general is that some ship types can mitigate most of their "missile counter" damage moving with their own (non-ab) speed.
For example vaga can mitigate quite a bit of missile damage just by moving around. Ofc vaga in this case is ok (was just an example) as its "special ability" is higher speed. But problems arise when rockets cant deal full damage to non-ab ceptors or torps cant deal full damage to non-ab BS (full damage after sig reduction that is).
IMO:
missile should deal full damage to non-ABing ship of its own class (so small missiles vs frigs, med missiles vs cruisers, large vs BS) EXCLUDING sig damage reduction (so yeah sig should reduce damage dependant on ship vs missile)
With above in mind domi (iirc its radius doesnt give protection from torps) should be always hit for full damage from normal torps even when moving at its max speed. If it uses AB, velocity implants, snakes etc - damage should be ofc reduced.
Phoon on the other hand will get base damage reduced (sig) but should still get hit for (almost) full damage when it moves with its base speed (almost full due to higher speeds of minnie BS).
Same for all other missile types, ESPECIALLY rockets (which just fail horribly at their job).
I think we're saying the same thing here. I don't have a problem with ABs reducing missile damage, I have a problem with them negating it entirely. I tried AB-ing away from a fight a few years back and remember getting shredded quite clearly. And I think it should be hard for a BS to MWD, let alone AB, in order to negate cruiser sized missile damage, Rage or otherwise.
However, I think the Rage's explosion radius should be reduced so you can fit full damage (radius wise) against a ship WITH paint but WITHOUT the need for perfect painting skills.
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Flame on. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:56:00 -
[10]
Your problem is you are using high-damage T2 ammo against the wrong target (it's meant for either heavily tackled and/or painted targets, or ships a size class larger). Fit one painter and swap to faction ammo and the Raven still does over 1100 dps to the Megathron, no matter how fast the Megathron is moving (MWD on vs. MWD off is less than 50 dps difference), while a Megathron with T2 ions and CNAM is only doing 1096 in return, even assuming 100% hit chance.
PS: your damage numbers are wrong. Assuming a non-comedy Megathron, IOW, one that fits a MWD not an AB, the lowest the Megathron can possibly reduce the incoming dps from rage torps + drones + one painter is 819 dps.
TL,DR: torps are still the best battleship weapon.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: aldarrin
Suddenly, the Mega decides to orbit the Raven at his/her optimal. It's double platted and Trimark'd, so it cruises at a commanding 116 m/s. Unfortunately that's 24.5 m/s faster than the explosion velocity of the Raven's torps. The Raven's dps suddenly drops by 26.8% ( (116 m/s - 91.5 m/s) / 91.5 m/s).
The Raven's DPS is reduced... The Megathron's DPS is all but eliminated.
Tracking, even with the 'thron's tracking bonus, from an orbit at that range and speed, goes entirely to pot with T1 ammo, let alone with Void.
So now the Raven wins, the fully buffered 'thron can only lose unless he wises up... because the torp raven is (theoretically) capable of so much more raw damage than it, at such a greater range, while mitigating the damage it's taking by moving.
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Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Depili
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:26:00 -
[12]
One thing that should also be taken into account when balancing missiles is that they take time to reach their targets and also the missiles can be destroyed by smarts (and defenders, if they would be worth fitting...)
So missiles have numerous disadvantages compared to instant damage from turrets.
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:42:00 -
[13]
Torps was awesome before nerf, make them so again. xD
Heavy Assault Missiles and Rockets should be mini-Torps, not fast shooting projectile mini-gun.
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Grez
Minmatar
Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:45:00 -
[14]
You do realise that most BS's with guns in that situation would have to swap out their short range DPS ammo for their long range or something else due to the fact that we'd miss 50% of the time. I know I'd rather take a 23% dps reduction than a straight up 50% (possibly more due to the fact that when you do hit, it'll be "barely misses").
Short range ammo has **** tracking - that goes for missiles too.
---
Grez: I shot the sheriff
Kalazar: But I could not lock the Deputy BECAUSE OF FALCON |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: aldarrin
I think we're saying the same thing here. I don't have a problem with ABs reducing missile damage, I have a problem with them negating it entirely. I tried AB-ing away from a fight a few years back and remember getting shredded quite clearly. And I think it should be hard for a BS to MWD, let alone AB, in order to negate cruiser sized missile damage, Rage or otherwise.
However, I think the Rage's explosion radius should be reduced so you can fit full damage (radius wise) against a ship WITH paint but WITHOUT the need for perfect painting skills.
No, we are not thinking the same. First i was talking about normal t1 (faction) ammo, not rages. If you want to get full damage from rages use proper target (1 class higher - in this case capitals) or use TPs.
AB can negate even whole damage for all i care - thats why there is web module (webbed ABing ship gets more-less back to starting speed values so should be getting damaged normal way again).
And all stuff should be calculated at max skill (lv5) levels.
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:03:00 -
[16]
After QR torps are dead. That's the reason for CCP to give torps to SB imo. (atm torps from SB looks like old Cruise with a new damage bonus and without old sig bonus. so Why swapping weapon system? just to revamp Torps I guess)
SB can use Torps due to its unique 100% explo velocity bonus (no rig/implant/module to do that).
I believe that using a BS with torp is not very efficient compared to other BS offensive systems. But even if it's in pair, why CCP gave a 100% explosion velocity to SBs? their intended target was already a BS.
Vigaz
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 08/05/2009 12:14:13
I don't care how useful they make target painters when it's a mid slot item.
A Raven needs at least 4 mids for tank or it'll die horribly to another battleship.
For me that's either sensor booster + mwd if buffer tanked.
Or heavy cap injector + sensor booster if active tanked.
I've melted in seconds before against something even like an armageddon and even using every slot to tank, ravens tank get's up to about 800 absolute peak.
Despite being talked up as the damage race you'll tank better in a gallente dominix. If torpedoes didn't do so much damage in the first place the Raven as a ship for pvp would be compeltely useless.
I'll always fit the explosion velocity or signature radius rigs over a stupid 30km target painter. I might use it in pve but apart from that, eww.
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Vigaz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 08/05/2009 12:14:13
I'll always fit the explosion velocity or signature radius rigs over a stupid 30km target painter. I might use it in pve but apart from that, eww.
Do not use it with torps. Rigs for sig radius reduction (aka Warhead Rigor Catalyst) effect only guided missiles (rockets/HAMs/Torps are unguided)
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.05.09 12:40:00 -
[19]
Yeah I knew one of them doesn't work with torps but there's one that does so doesn't matter to me. 
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Lacolo Basema
Caldari
Kotar Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.10 13:52:00 -
[20]
Missiles as a whole are broken in EVE. It makes no sense that a big explosion next to a small object does less damage than a small explosion. It should wipe it out completly if it was allowed to hit a stationary small target.
Keyword: Stationary. Maybe big missiles should have much less velocity, so smaller ships could avoid them if they were moving at decent speeds. But that would almost require small ships to fit speed mods, to not be murdered by missiles.
I think that in general, the bigger the missile, the slower it is. But all missiles should get a boost in explosion velocity. As it is, it's rediculous that something like a huge mini nuke like a citadel torpedo can be partially outrun by another capital ship just by moving at 100 m/s.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.10 21:30:00 -
[21]
My fix to missiles is instead of using sig radius. Add something similar to transversal to it. It doesn't matter how big or small you are, it matters what direction you're travelling in at the time of detonation. If you're stationary or heading directly toward the nucleus of the explosion, you take full damage. The larger the difference in heading compared to the explosion's blast wave, the less you take, with heading directly away from the explosion causing the largest drop in damage taken. Speed of course is also factored in. Small nimble fast ships can change their heading repeatedly to mitigate damage taken, while large lumbering ships will not be able to change between headings to mitigate damage.
The problem with it though, is it adds a lot of processor overhead to damage calculations. And in a fleet fight would probably royally hose small ships who are are already fighting against server lag. It would also require a rebalance of missile damage and volley times, so small ships would have a chance to change heading multiple times between each wave of missiles, yet still make forward momentum in trying to engage with missile ships within their optimal. Which btw, doesn't really even matter because a smart person when fighting against a smaller ship would not use weapon grouping, but instead F1, wait till a suitable amount of time has passed, F2... so on and so forth, to stagger the launches to keep heading changes from being possible.
All and all, what I'm saying is.. the current mechanic isn't perfect. But any mechanic you use for missiles wouldn't be perfect. They are so different in basic nature from all other forms of highslot warfare that its hard to balance them against anything else. Which oddly enough, is the same problem with Ewar.
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Pvt Public7
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.12 03:28:00 -
[22]
lol 1v1
Caldari ships are fleet boats. Always have been, always will be.
Throw support ships in the mix and see what happens. Even a pair of tackle interceptors will even it out.
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SWA was here
IAC is a loser |
El Mauru
Amarr
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.12 03:49:00 -
[23]
you gotta love 1vs1 comparisons 
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Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari
Light Brigade
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Posted - 2009.05.12 11:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Your problem is you are using high-damage T2 ammo against the wrong target (it's meant for either heavily tackled and/or painted targets, or ships a size class larger). Fit one painter and swap to faction ammo and the Raven still does over 1100 dps to the Megathron, no matter how fast the Megathron is moving (MWD on vs. MWD off is less than 50 dps difference), while a Megathron with T2 ions and CNAM is only doing 1096 in return, even assuming 100% hit chance.
PS: your damage numbers are wrong. Assuming a non-comedy Megathron, IOW, one that fits a MWD not an AB, the lowest the Megathron can possibly reduce the incoming dps from rage torps + drones + one painter is 819 dps.
TL,DR: torps are still the best battleship weapon.
Pulse.
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2009.05.12 11:27:00 -
[25]
Torps are awesome.
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Mistmare
Heavy Influence
Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:43:00 -
[26]
torps are or used to be awesome, they got nerfed way to much. It's my opinion and I'm not caldari.
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Relyen
Foundation
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:57:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Relyen on 12/05/2009 14:00:46
Torps are awesome. The main problem is they need 2-3 BCU's to be awesome.
For the raven this is a problem (which is the only real torp boat, although typhoon to some extent, but mixed weapon designs suck).
So, with Siege Launchers and the required BCU's fitted you can't fit an RR armor tank. Which means you can't really fly with a RR gang. Which is one of the only real close range BS gangs that fly around currently. Which means you are stuck to niche situations.
Other then that, they rock.
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I am own. |
Solid Prefekt
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:07:00 -
[28]
You are using an unrealistic scenario.
1. Nobody uses rage in PVP. They fit Faction Torps so use that as the example.
2. No BS fits an AB in PVP. They fit an MWD
Now if the Mega has its MWD on, how much will you hit? And if you have an MWD (which you should) and you are at 5km (like you say) then the Mega could have tracking problems. You could also pull away and now the Mega has to use weaker ammo (or be forced to turn on MWD to get close).
The point is the Torps are not as horrible as you are trying to make out. And I have a Caldari pilot that uses T2 Torps. I don't have a Gallente Pilot though.
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Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Intergalactic Trade and Transport Corporation
The Fifth Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.05.12 14:19:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 12/05/2009 14:23:09
It's an unrealistic comparison. In reality a mega would be trying very hard to get within at LEAST 10km to even hit the Raven, while the Caldari pilot can sit pretty at 20km and still do just as much damage as 5km.
If anything I think torpedos and cruise missiles fly way too far for the damage they inflict. You need antimatter rounds to keep up with the DPS of cruise missiles, though even with a 425mm T2 rail, its optimal is brought down to something like 56km. Meanwhile the Cruise missiles are well on their way past 120km.
Edit: Reading on you ask for a trade off of flight time for more explosion velocity. This is reasonable.
~/~ Sultan of Buruni |
aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.12 18:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pvt Public7
lol 1v1
Caldari ships are fleet boats. Always have been, always will be.
Throw support ships in the mix and see what happens. Even a pair of tackle interceptors will even it out.
I don't particularly care if it's a silly scenario. Here's the point: I do a side by side comparison when I look at the Raven sitting next to a Mega in my hangar. And I decide which I want to take out of station. Because it doesn't perform well, the Raven stays docked. Occasionally it gets to shoot a POS. Those are big enough, and slow enough for a Raven.
As an extra bonus, the mega can run in a fleet. I've heard the Caldari are fleet ships argument for years and don't buy it. "Bring more people along, that will balance things out." If you have to have 2 - 3 times the number of players to be effective, you've got serious issues. And I've played with many different fleets, and scenarios. There is no uber Caldari fleet configuration to make up for the individual suckiness of most of the ships. The Raven is NOT a fleet ship. The Rokh however, is fantastic.
Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 12/05/2009 14:23:09
You need antimatter rounds to keep up with the DPS of cruise missiles, though even with a 425mm T2 rail, its optimal is brought down to something like 56km. Meanwhile the Cruise missiles are well on their way past 120km.
Nobody snipes with cruise missiles (or shouldn't at least). You're just wasting ammo. If you do it right, you can pop most things before your cruise missiles would even hit.
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Flame on. |
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