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Brax Gavin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:13:00 -
[1]
Just wondering since Calari have no "good" PVP ships. Are there any survivable PVP ships? (non cap and non t2)
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:16:00 -
[2]
Kestrel, Drake, Blackbird, Scorp, Raven, Rohk. All T1, all good.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:17:00 -
[3]
No. No Caldari ship has any survivability in PVP, because they are so useless that they are always primaried and killed first.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 02:14:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Gypsio III
No. No Caldari ship has any survivability in PVP, because they are so useless that they are always primaried and killed first.
Definitely this. Definitely.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.05.08 02:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gypsio III
No. No Caldari ship has any survivability in PVP, because they are so useless that they are always primaried and killed first.
Definitely this. Definitely.
It's the only humane thing to do, put them out of their misery before they cause anyone else further embarrassment.
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Bloody Rabbit
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:17:00 -
[6]
Fit a blackbird with t1 mods as you will be the first to be attacked.
Or use a HAM Drake and you will just be left along as they kill your friends
Or Torp Raven; you will be popped but you will most likely kill a few of them with you.
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Smirna Auff
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:27:00 -
[7]
BlackBird is made of win.
Caracal is ok.
HAM Drakes are made of 100% win.
BS performance depends on your fleet tbh. For solo/duo stuff or big huge blobs that instapop ppl Cald BS are cool. Its in the middle where everyone uses RR BS and guardians that Cald BS mostly suck.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:58:00 -
[8]
There are no good Caldari ships
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 04:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
There are no good Caldari ships
Agreed, none at all. (Shhh! Don't tell him)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Eardianm
Official Godzilla Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:05:00 -
[10]
Caldari
Pvp
Success
Pick 2
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/05/2009 05:29:54
Drake, Raven, Blackbird, Rokh. So what if it's a short list, it's no worse than any of the other races:
Amarr: Harbinger, Apoc, Armageddon, Abaddon
Gallente: Dominix
Minmatar: Rifter, Stabber, Hurricane
So as you can see, the lack of "good Caldari PvP ships" has more to do with refusing to consider T2 ships than any problem with Caldari. Like it or not, T2 ships are the standard for PvP, you won't get an accurate picture of the useful ships if you don't include them.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:43:00 -
[12]
I started to fill in the holes in your list Merin but there are just too many. Suffice to say, you're leaving out a lot of good (and commonly used) T1 ships.
And how the hell do you list the Stabber but forget the Rupture? :P You must not fly Minmatar.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/05/2009 05:48:09
Originally by: Traderboz
I started to fill in the holes in your list Merin but there are just too many. Suffice to say, you're leaving out a lot of good (and commonly used) T1 ships.
No, I'm leaving out a lot of stuff that is completely obsolete compared to either stuff already on the list, or T2 ships. Also note that I include ships that are obsolete even if the superior ship is of a different race, for example, the Brutix is completely outclassed by the Harbinger, so it does not appear on the list.
Quote:
And how the hell do you list the Stabber but forget the Rupture? :P You must not fly Minmatar.
Simple: Stabber = useful fast tackler. Rupture = get a Hurricane.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:05:00 -
[14]
It shouldn't be surprising the Hurricane puts up better numbers, since it's a tier2 BC and the Rupture is a T1 cruiser. Just because you can run to a larger, more expensive ship doesn't mean that a smaller ship isn't a good ship. The rupture's one of the best, if not the best, T1 cruisers in the game. The fact that larger, more expensive ships can put up higher numbers does not change this.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Simple: Stabber = useful fast tackler. Rupture = get a Hurricane.
Heh, you don't fly Minmatar.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:13:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/05/2009 06:15:30
Originally by: Traderboz
It shouldn't be surprising the Hurricane puts up better numbers, since it's a tier2 BC and the Rupture is a T1 cruiser. Just because you can run to a larger, more expensive ship doesn't mean that a smaller ship isn't a good ship. The rupture's one of the best, if not the best, T1 cruisers in the game. The fact that larger, more expensive ships can put up higher numbers does not change this.
Sure it does, at least in this case. The normal advantage of a cruiser is superior speed, but the Hurricane (fitted properly) is actually faster than a Rupture, and almost as agile (less than 0.5s difference in EFT align time). And of course the Hurricane is going to have more tank and vastly more dps.
The only reason to ever fly a Rupture is if you're a newbie who can't afford a Hurricane, and that's hardly enough to call it a good ship. Remember, the subject here is good ships, not second-tier ships that you're willing to settle for if you can't have one of the good ships.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Simple: Stabber = useful fast tackler. Rupture = get a Hurricane.
Heh, you don't fly Minmatar.
-Liang
Nope, but I have corp-mates who do, and the verdict is clear: Hurricane is awesome, Rupture is newbie trash.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Nope, but I have corp-mates who do, and the verdict is clear: Hurricane is awesome, Rupture is newbie trash.
The Hurry is awesome, but the Rupture is not "newbie trash". :)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:32:00 -
[18]
If you ignore ship classes/cost/SP, of course smaller T1 ships are going to get left out.
But then again, if you're going to make arbitrary exclusions from a list of "good" ships, you might as well consider T2 ships as well, in which case most of the T1 ships other than BS and a few BC's will get left out. You could go even further and just consider officer fit T3 ships, in which case even more ships will get omitted from the list. I tend to consider ships based on their class as well as their overall performance, and just because they don't compare to a ship in a higher class doesn't mean they're bad ships. As far as T1 cruisers go, the Rup is king.
Honestly though, I don't really feel like arguing about a ship you don't even fly and how it compares to a ship that's obviously in a different class. You can have your list with the Stabber on it, I'll have mine, and we'll leave it at that. 
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:42:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/05/2009 06:42:32
Originally by: Traderboz
But then again, if you're going to make arbitrary exclusions from a list of "good" ships, you might as well consider T2 ships as well, in which case most of the T1 ships other than BS and a few BC's will get left out.
Funny, but that's exactly what I did: I listed the few T1 ships that survive. If the OP hadn't limited it to T1-only, I would've posted the few T2 ships that are actually useful as well. It's a fairly short list, but Caldari still do better than average.
Quote:
You could go even further and just consider officer fit T3 ships, in which case even more ships will get omitted from the list. I tend to consider ships based on their class as well as their overall performance, and just because they don't compare to a ship in a higher class doesn't mean they're bad ships. As far as T1 cruisers go, the Rup is king.
The difference is the officer-fit T3 ship isn't even remotely cost effective. The Hurricane, on the other hand, is extremely cost effective, once fittings and insurance are counted, it really isn't that much more expensive than a Rupture, but provides a massive increase in effectiveness.
BTW: once T3 ships come down to the promised 300 mil price range, I suspect some T2 ships are going to be losing their place on the "worth flying" list.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Funny, but that's exactly what I did: I listed the few T1 ships that survive. If the OP hadn't limited it to T1-only, I would've posted the few T2 ships that are actually useful as well. It's a fairly short list, but Caldari still do better than average.
Nah, you didn't. Stabber = Get a Vaga.
Quote:
The difference is the officer-fit T3 ship isn't even remotely cost effective. The Hurricane, on the other hand, is extremely cost effective, once fittings and insurance are counted, it really isn't that much more expensive than a Rupture, but provides a massive increase in effectiveness.
BTW: once T3 ships come down to the promised 300 mil price range, I suspect some T2 ships are going to be losing their place on the "worth flying" list.
And you'll be as wrong then as you are now. :)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:53:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 08/05/2009 06:53:43
Please keep demand for Caldari T2 ships low.
They are horrible.
Kidding aside - here are non-T2 surviveable..
Buffer Merlin tackler. (medium shield extender)
Assault Missile Caracal (2x large shield extender II and slaughters frigs).
Scram tackle blaster Moa (invl II large shield extender II).
Scram tackle Ferox.
Drake (pretty obvious and dont use shield power relays in a pvp setup).
Buffer Raven (similar idea to buffer tanked drake).
Rokh (I mix buffer and active for small gangs or I remote rep fit it with buffer).
Buffer scorpion.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Hurricane is awesome, Rupture is newbie trash.
You know, I'm pretty sure Garmon agrees with you on this one... 
Originally by: Omarvelous
Scram tackle blaster Moa
Yeah, the blaster Moa can be surprisingly good and is often massively underestimated (just like the blaster Ferox in both regards, in fact).
It depends what kind of PvP you're doing, but often getting your enemies to think they can win, and thus engage, when they in fact are fighting an uphill battle is one of the most important and most difficult things to pull off. And Sun Tzu would agree with that.
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me bored
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:39:00 -
[23]
Caldari are just as good as any other race for pvp. I'm convinced that most of the whining comes from carebears who are shocked to discover that they have to drop one of their 20 shield hardeners to fit a point. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:07:00 -
[24]
Caldari pvp ships are mainly good when they dont have to fit a point, because friendlies tackle. The problem is people filling their lows of their pvp drake with SPRs.
Sniper ferox is also nice. While filling a niche role, it is the only BC which can snipe with/against sniper hacs.
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fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Caldari pvp ships are mainly good when they dont have to fit a point, because friendlies tackle. The problem is people filling their lows of their pvp drake with SPRs.
Sniper ferox is also nice. While filling a niche role, it is the only BC which can snipe with/against sniper hacs.
In wich case would you consider a sniper Ferox as "good"?
Sniping and Ferox dont fit together.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:26:00 -
[26]
Sniping and ferox doesnt fit together? You mean besides using the turret type with highest optimal range + optimal range bonus?
Unless things changed alot since i left 0.0 a while ago, everyone and their mother is flying arround in sniping hac gangs. To deal with them, you at least need to be able to reach their range (you can tackle a few when they jump through a gate, but that isnt really effective). What can reach their range:
Ferox
Other sniping hacs
Sniping BS
Now sniping BS are nice against sniping hacs, far stronger, higher damage, at hac ranges they can just use faction ammo so they have sufficient tracking, etc. However they are very slow and cant keep up with hacs.
Other hacs work obviously only if you have more than they have (assuming everything else equal).
Now a ferox is slower in alligning than hacs, but far faster than battleships. It has less dps than hacs, but more EHP. It requires far less skills than hacs and battleships, and it is roughly 4 times cheaper.
It isnt the best at sniping, but looking at cost + skills required + performance for use against hacs, no other ship can do what a ferox does.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Eardianm
Caldari
Pvp
Success
Pick 2
No, it's supposed to be
Caldari
PVP
Solo
Sucess
Pick 3
Caldari are great at Gang PVP. And great at Solo PVE.
///my vote is for sale, he who sends the most iskies gets it\\\ |
Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:20:00 -
[28]
What exactly makes caldari great at gang pvp?:O
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Sangost
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:25:00 -
[29]
Am noticing a complete lack of interest in Rokh, as one of the best snipers in the game. Not the best in any one area, but does good damage at good range and has a good tank. While this is definetly argueable, in PVP fleet battles, this is one of the best snipers.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:27:00 -
[30]
I agree on Rupture being made redundant outclassed by the Cane. The Cane do waht it do a lot better. I.e. I can kill Ruptures far far to easy, but canes is more of a cahllenege.
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