Issler

I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest.

When the truth lube is applied in large quantities folks show you who they really are.

Issler

I believe that and I think we've seen some recent events to make my case.

Thats worrying to me.

However, that is an elected candidate and as such holds a seat. You cannot change that now, despite the behavior of that candidate no matter how ugly it truly is.

Internet greetings,

It is odd that you mention this ...


With irony,

~Ala

Yes, we've seen this thread hundreds of times but dunno how many ppl know this came from an elected CSM



No offense... well a little.. but you also said the rather insane quote of how what you do in game show what you are IRL.
I think ppl should listen to you when you get less crazy. Or help.



I pointed this out, a few posts later, got this reply:



So not only IS there insanity, its still there and we voted this insanity in?

Yeah the CSM system TOTALLY works guys. We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life (IE One of those "EVE is full of sociopaths" ppl) and put them at the same table as CCP.

Thats worrying to me.

She is making a point. It seems you have a personal grudge against this CSM member - otherwise you would not have created a thread to try and discredit them as you seem to be doing. Something like this is best handled in private channels ratehr than a public forum I would think.

We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life (IE One of those "EVE is full of sociopaths" ppl) and put them at the same table as CCP.

Something for you to ponder.

Give someone power and/or money and they will become who they really are.

More to the point. Take away consequences for a persons actions and they will become who they really are.

I have seen enough in game, on internet forums, and in real life to know just how true the above things are. Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not. Yet you can watch news anywhere in the world and see all of the nasty stuff people do to one another daily and how sociopathic behavior is the norm in real life.

Is it really a stretch to think more than a few sociopaths in real life play Eve? No, and to deny this is to deny logic, common sense, and what is happening in real life daily.

People are nasty creatures.

Something for you to ponder.

Give someone power and/or money and they will become who they really are.

More to the point. Take away consequences for a persons actions and they will become who they really are.

I have seen enough in game, on internet forums, and in real life to know just how true the above things are. Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not. Yet you can watch news anywhere in the world and see all of the nasty stuff people do to one another daily and how sociopathic behavior is the norm in real life.

Is it really a stretch to think more than a few sociopaths in real life play Eve? No, and to deny this is to deny logic, common sense, and what is happening in real life daily.

People are nasty creatures.

Something for you to ponder.

Give someone power and/or money and they will become who they really are.

More to the point. Take away consequences for a persons actions and they will become who they really are.

I have seen enough in game, on internet forums, and in real life to know just how true the above things are. Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not. Yet you can watch news anywhere in the world and see all of the nasty stuff people do to one another daily and how sociopathic behavior is the norm in real life.

Is it really a stretch to think more than a few sociopaths in real life play Eve? No, and to deny this is to deny logic, common sense, and what is happening in real life daily.

People are nasty creatures.

So are you also the type of person who believes that sandbox games like Grand Theft Auto turn people in murderous psychopaths?

So are you also the type of person who believes that sandbox games like Grand Theft Auto turn people in murderous psychopaths?

No, I said sociopaths are in real life doing nasty things to other people and sociopaths play eve.

Murderous psychopaths turn Grand Theft Auto into people sand.

Greetings capsuleer Malkavian,

I have greater things that worry me. For example, an elected member of the CSM ignoring their compatriots and the cohesive, player representative platform the CSM is. Or, as another example, a member of the CSM focussing on politics, grandstanding and so forth and self promotion rather than on the actual working of the CSM and delivering more to New Eden.

...

You should probably be more worried that people actually elected such a transparent, self promotional candidate. I guess people will buy anything if it is on sale.

Regards,

Shian Yang

No, I said sociopaths are in real life doing nasty things to other people and sociopaths play eve.

I think you are having some trouble separating fantasy from reality here, mang. Maybe you should lay off the Veld for a few weeks.

I think you are having some trouble separating fantasy from reality here, mang. Maybe you should lay off the Veld for a few weeks.

I think you are having some trouble separating fantasy from reality here, mang. Maybe you should lay off the Veld for a few weeks.

Are you saying Veld combines fantasy and reality and the barrier between the two disappears unless one lays off the Veld.

No, I said sociopaths are in real life doing nasty things to other people and sociopaths play eve.

I'm sorry the mean PVPers PVPed you against your will in a game about non-consentual PVP.

LoL. You need to check my battleclinic record before spouting off even more nonsense. Wait, nevermind. Your entertaining.

By your reckoning, a record like that just screams "sociopath!" Look at all those assets you destroyed...

Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not.

Quoting part of my earlier post in this thread.

What exactly do sociopaths do?

Boy we've proven tons here haven't we?

Something like this is best handled in private channels ratehr than a public forum I would think.

Greetings capsuleer Malkavian,

I have greater things that worry me. For example, an elected member of the CSM ignoring their compatriots and the cohesive, player representative platform the CSM is. Or, as another example, a member of the CSM focussing on politics, grandstanding and so forth and self promotion rather than on the actual working of the CSM and delivering more to New Eden.

Regards,

Shian Yang

In our previous CSM we had a group who did the hard yards; who did the work.

Malkavian,eh?

You should probably be more worried that people actually elected such a transparent, self promotional candidate. I guess people will buy anything if it is on sale.

She is making a point. It seems you have a personal grudge against this CSM member - otherwise you would not have created a thread to try and discredit them as you seem to be doing. Something like this is best handled in private channels ratehr than a public forum I would think.

What have you proven.

Perhaps trolling trollers troll trolls while trolling? Shrug.

I'm sorry the mean PVPers PVPed you against your will in a game about non-consentual PVP.

This game is BASED on destroying things.
Its FUELED by destruction. Killing people and things and the fact you CAN DIE, ANYWHERE at ANY TIME is one of the great things about this game. If you think that makes the people doing the destroying crazy, maybe you shouldnt be playing it. It sounds like it may be damaging to your psyche.

Any chance there are sociopathic carebears acting out their feelings of sympathy and affection?

The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[5]

It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
1.Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
2.Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3.Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
4.Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5.Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6.Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
There may be persistent irritability as an associated feature.

The diagnosis includes what may be referred to as amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personality (disorder).

The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[6] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[7]

It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

I'm one of the people who believes people act in-game the way they really are or wish they were. Same goes for the Internet or anywhere else where you can be yourself with a high degree of anonymity and virtually zero consequences to your behaviour.

A d*** is a d***. Online or in real life, he's still a d***. The difference is, when at work and talking to his boss, a d*** will try to hide that he's a d***. Because there are obvious and immediate consequences to acting like a d*** in such a situation. But at home, or better yet on the internet, with relative anonymity and no consequences? You just buckle up and feel the Gs. That's an example of a person acting online the way they really are.

Now take the oh-so-common "Internet tough guy". Would they act this way in real life? For a vast majority of them, the answer is no. This is an example of person acting online the way they wish they were able to in real life. Reality is simple - mouthing off at the wrong person and/or at the wrong place and/or at the wrong time can have negative consequences on your health. Action and reaction. Choice and consequence. There are of course actual tough guys, but in real life even they remember the simple truth - no matter how big or scary you are, there's always someone bigger and scarier than you. Or just someone with more friends. But even the real tough guys are way more mouthy online.

Not surprisingly, the same holds in EVE. I mean, let's be honest for a second here. The game mechanics attract a certain type of personality - someone who likes a little edge to their games. As a consequence, EVE has more than a standard compliment of really disturbed people. It goes with the territory and it's nothing to be surprised about.

So I really don't know what the big deal is. This kind of stuff is not only common, it is expected.

Malkavians are my second favourite race... I agree they are pretty awesome... But sometime I feel like ripping stuff to shreds and I love Gangrels for it.

Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

I'm going to take this out of its intended context for a second. Where I think most people see sociopathic behaviour is in how and where and why this PvP happens.

What I mean is, if you are in 0.0, flying an expensive ship with valuable cargo, it is only sensible for someone to try and kill you and take your stuff. So when a gang jumps on top of you and blows you up, again this is not surprising, it is expected in a game such as this.

However, there's also nonsensical violence for absolutely no reason. Like a group of suicide gankers taking out a miner or indy ship. What do they gain from it, really? It's not a good fight, it's not really entertaining. Any value you get back from salvage/loot is questionable. The only certainty is that the miner/indy ship cost more than the destroyers you used to blow it up. In other words, it cost the other guy more than it cost you.

Similarly, there's a guy I see all the time who like to pop capsules coming through on autopilot in high sec. What does he benefit from it? Nothing. In fact, each kill is a net loss for him. But he does it anyway, apparently for the lols. This kind of mentality is what many find deeply disturbing. I know I do. Too many similarities with a guy that goes on a rampage and tries to get as many people down as he can before he is finally taken down himself. It's...just not healthy.

And while I completely recognize that in real life he's probably not chasing schoolchildren around with a chainsaw, the mere fact that in game he finds this kind of thing entertaining bothers me a little. Just like people who voluntarily watch movies like Salo, Human Centipede, Dark Seed, etc., for fun and enjoyment bother me. Don't tell me it's normal or healthy. They are not necessarily sociopaths or dangerous, but from the standpoint of mental health, you know they have a screw loose someplace.

I think that's a distinction you have to be aware of, in other peoples' perception of the events. PvP where the victim is good and ready for it, even if the battle is one-sided, I don't think many would complain about. Nobody would complain about a good fight there combatants were evenly matched. But when you see people shooting pods, at a net loss, for pleasure, during their free time on their entertainment dollar, you have to wonder what kind of person is on the other end of that character and wish you don't run into them. Like, ever.



The above goes as a response to this argument of yours as well. It's not about sheer destruction. It's about who, where, how and why. It's all about context. Some people behave in such a way as to suggest they're a few cans short of a six-pack.

I qualify for numbers 2, 3, 4 to an extent, and the guilt part of 5. By definition, that makes me a prime candidate for sociopathy. The most glaring obvious ones I see on Eve are numbers 1 and 6 (Hulkageddon, Burn Jita). You'd have to be Stevie Wonder blind and Jessica Simpson oblivious to argue that point.

I popped an APing pod once, and I'll probably roll an alt and do it some more because it's hilarious to cull the stupid. I can't wait for the new Crimewatch so I can repair sec status on alts even easier than now.

Do you fear for my child because I play a game?

You'd think this thing would kind of blow over by now. Mitt is back, enjoying the game the way he wants to after a little break. He's playing the metagame he likes by declaring war on Issler's alliance. What took place out of game is being used as motivation for in game activities, is it that farfetched to think it might go the other way?

Either way, Mitt said himself he was out of line with what he did. I'd guess even he wishes people would stop talking about it, because nothing about the situation was good for him or the game in general.

You'd think this thing would kind of blow over by now. Mitt is back, enjoying the game the way he wants to after a little break. He's playing the metagame he likes by declaring war on Issler's alliance. What took place out of game is being used as motivation for in game activities, is it that farfetched to think it might go the other way?

Either way, Mitt said himself he was out of line with what he did. I'd guess even he wishes people would stop talking about it, because nothing about the situation was good for him or the game in general.

EVE makes sociopaths exactly as much as Doom did. Or D&D does. Or Friday the 13th (all scary movies for that matter) did. Or heavy metal does. Or whatever else outside, external reason you want to lay the blame for nutty ppl existing, instead of laying the blame at the feet of the person doing it. That **** has pissed me off for years

Eve doesn't make sociopaths, no. No more than any other game. However, that fact doesn't change the perceptions of certain individuals. It's more the fundamental attribution error than anything else, really.

People love blame figures, and being podded by some guy in a Thrasher doesn't make you as much of a victim as being ruthlessly hunted down by some sociopathic lunatic in high sec space, even though both describe the same event.

People love blame figures, and being podded by some guy in a Thrasher doesn't make you as much of a victim as being ruthlessly hunted down by some sociopathic lunatic in high sec space, even though both describe the same event.

I think the ppl who think ingame ebil actions = out of game psychopathy are mistaking phychological diagnosis for assholish behavior. And theyre forgetting that they are not in fact, psychiatrists.

your friends shouldnt alienate you if you betray a corporation online.

and if they do they obviously werent real friends anyways lol

We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life...

Sure some humans try to be loving and caring and peaceful but in general the human race is NOT a peaceful race, not even close.

Wow.

The only idea crazier than that would be that your "real life" personality isn't reflected at all in how you play the game.

I never meant to imply that. But it's all shades of scarlet, isn't it? Sociopaths express certain attributes stronger than 'normal' individuals, and all.


It is, to an extent. Not to the extent many people believe, though.

I popped an APing pod once, and I'll probably roll an alt and do it some more because it's hilarious to cull the stupid. I can't wait for the new Crimewatch so I can repair sec status on alts even easier than now.

Do you fear for my child because I play a game?

E: Discussions like this on EVE-O Forums are generally p stupid.

Did they have implants? Because autopiloting with expensive implants is just asking for trouble.

Other than the burn jita pod, the only pod I ever shot at was like my 2nd day in game, I saw a guy in a pod with a like 5 billion bounty (that was a lot back then). I, in my Kestrel, locked and fired ONE (>.<) light missile at it, thinking that should be good enough. Many lols were had in local.

I build my gank Thrashers and all the fittings from mission poo, a bit of mining, and some researched BPOs. It amuses me to no end.

The mission poo and Soundwave's comment how they never wanted you to mine with a gun is worrying lol

It's probably 100% true.

This game was not originally the IP of CCP, for what that's worth.

Whose was it O.o and when did they take it over?

An itd be funny if they removed all the drops from missions/rats and just upped the bounties. Miners would be way more important there lol

An itd be funny if they removed all the drops from missions/rats and just upped the bounties. Miners would be way more important there lol

Also make the meta 1-4 items bpc's craftable via invention as lesser degrees of success than tech ii.

Edit: Let me find that original IP holder.

Right now a lot of the meta+ items are pretty useless and don't sell for much. So I salvage four or five L4s and get a GSC full of crap: salvage goods and any drops worth more than 100K lowest sell I take to a hub for resale, anything else + all the ammo gets reprocessed. Even after the recent nerf it's crazy how much mission poo is generated. Ammo is the big culprit from what I've seen.

Edit: Let me find that original IP holder.

Second Edit: According to this, Simon & Schuster Inc.

Anyone who pivots their attack on another human being on the premise of "truth" and "honesty" being a pivotal point is clearly a liar.


ALL HUMANS ARE DECEITFUL.

Period. The ones who accept that all people are in some form deceitful move along just fine and interact with each other just fine. An ad hominem attack on someone saying they aren't "honest" enough or "sincere" or "lying" is deluded.

Being a liar or dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

Our most famous actors are liars. They pretend to be murderers, assaultants, rapists, psychopaths, and perverts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whfHxiYtyy0


Does this make them bad people?


A persons honesty is our responsiblity to keep them in line. Any person given enough lead will take it to the extreme.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts. I don't care WHO you are.


The pretense of any discussion on a persons honesty is broken.

However. Issler, stil pretty crazy lol

(had to keep it a bit on topic so they didnt lock it lol)

This thread started with nothing more than character assassination of Issler. I may not agree with what Issler proposes for Eve, but that doesnt blind me or others in this thread that someone is trying to discredit the person instead of the policies Issler endorses. Watch any political add campaign in real life and you can see the similarities to what is going on with this thread.

Saying that sociopaths dont play eve is ridiculous. Sociopaths exist in real life and obviously some are going to be in Eve. Claiming anything else is irrational. Does playing a pirate in game mean everyone who shoots little pixels is a sociopath? Of course not. That would be just as irrational.

What this all is beginning to look like is that Issler wouldnt stay quiet like a good little CSM and it aggravated someone(s). They are now trying to discredit Issler the way a politician discredits people.

Saying that sociopaths dont play eve is ridiculous. Sociopaths exist in real life and obviously some are going to be in Eve. Claiming anything else is irrational. Does playing a pirate in game mean everyone who shoots little pixels is a sociopath? Of course not. That would be just as irrational.

Nobody is saying that sociopaths don't play eve, but there are quote a few people insinuating exactly what you say here, that everyone who shoots another player is a sociopath.

Thats good we can agree on this. Now just one little step further.

Does anonymity and zero consequences allow people to become who they really are?

Others in this thread and myself believe this. Does this mean that all people become sociopaths because that is who they really are? No, of course not. Just like all people who shoot pixels are not sociopaths. Its the way of people and what I beleive Issler was trying to point out.

...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

The whole concept of a video game is to allow a person to be something they are not.

Are the friendships you make in game just as fake? If not, then perhaps a bit of a persons real self is showing through afterall.

Dont make the assumption that everyone who plays a video game is trying to be something they really are not.

[quote=Olleybear]
There is nothing psychopathic about that in the least. THEY are doing what they need to do to accomplish their goals in a game.

"Someone else is going to do it so I may as well do it first." or "They would do it to me so I may as well do it to them."



Funny how many times I have heard that exact same reasoning in real life to justify why a person does something bad to someone else. People can find any number of logical reasons to justify hurting others. Its even funnier when its done to them and they get angry over it.

Man, those AoE doomsdays ...

I usually eat 1 or 2 cans of baked beans to prime my AoE doomsday....

This thread started with nothing more than character assassination of Issler.

Claiming anything else is irrational

Thats good we can agree on this. Now just one little step further.

Funny how many times I have heard that exact same reasoning in real life to justify why a person does something bad to someone else. People can find any number of logical reasons to justify hurting others. Its even funnier when its done to them and they get angry over it.

Greetings capsuleer,

Why draw the line at other capsuleers? If you shoot at an Ammarian cruiser piloted by a non capsuleer (Or one under Ammarr control) and kill potentially thousands of crew; are you not doing the fundamental, same thing?

This is why I find this reasoning so spurious. Shoot a capsuleer and you are a sociopath. Destroy a cruiser filled with thousands of people and you're a well adjusted, normal carebear.

Regards,

Shian Yang

Something for you to ponder.

Give someone power and/or money and they will become who they really are.

More to the point. Take away consequences for a persons actions and they will become who they really are.

I have seen enough in game, on internet forums, and in real life to know just how true the above things are. Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not. Yet you can watch news anywhere in the world and see all of the nasty stuff people do to one another daily and how sociopathic behavior is the norm in real life.

Is it really a stretch to think more than a few sociopaths in real life play Eve? No, and to deny this is to deny logic, common sense, and what is happening in real life daily.

People are nasty creatures.

Very easily understood and that means more people who play eve will get it

Precisely why I had an objection to Issler's raving about in game = IRL. Its crap

Precisely why I had an objection to Issler's raving about in game = IRL. Its crap

Looks cut and dry to me.

It would be foolish to say a capsuleer acts like a sociopath in New Eden and therefore they are a sociopath outside of it.

Thats good we can agree on this. Now just one little step further.

there are quite a few people insinuating exactly what you say here, that everyone who shoots another player is a sociopath.

Which is exactly what I said previously. Glad we agree.

If this is what you were saying all along, then you might want to take some lessons on how to better get your point across through text.

Does this mean that everyone who pirates in game waits at the exit of a grocery store to beat up old ladies and take their groceries? Of course not.

That is from my very first post in this thread which was even copied by another pilot and reposted again in its entirety. Perhaps its not the text I am typing but your reading comprehension.

Take away consequences for a persons actions and they will become who they really are.

You also said this though, which to me at least, means that while a person may not actually kill people in real life, if they do it in game, they must at least *want* to do it IRL.

Ill go for a Caitiff :) I played one who had Vicissutide, Potence, Celerity I think she was. I just remember the first one. I had FUN with that.

Issler is pointing out specifically what happened out of game. Now, if both what happens in game and out of game appear to be the same, it looks like solid proof of what Issler is claiming to me. Looks cut and dry to me.

I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well.

Greetings capsuleer,

What happened to the red bars?

Regards,

Shian Yang

Which is exactly what I said previously. Glad we agree.

Assamite all the way for me

Yes, we've seen this thread hundreds of times but dunno how many ppl know this came from an elected CSM



No offense... well a little.. but you also said the rather insane quote of how what you do in game show what you are IRL.
I think ppl should listen to you when you get less crazy. Or help.



I pointed this out, a few posts later, got this reply:



So not only IS there insanity, its still there and we voted this insanity in?

Yeah the CSM system TOTALLY works guys. We just put a person that believes the stuff you do in game reflects who you are in real life (IE One of those "EVE is full of sociopaths" ppl) and put them at the same table as CCP.

Thats worrying to me.

Please keep your personal grudges with individual CSM member/s private.

Or, if you absolutely must, then post on your main, so you can get the trolling you deserve.

("Ppl" is not a word, by the way.)

So are you also the type of person who believes that sandbox games like Grand Theft Auto turn people in murderous psychopaths?

Please keep your personal grudges with individual CSM member/s private.

Or, if you absolutely must, then post on your main, so you can get the trolling you deserve.

("Ppl" is not a word, by the way.)

Actually, Issler is right. A lot of social psychology literature points towards people extending their real-world personalities into the virtual world. Some exploration occurs online that doesn't in real life, but it is within the boundaries of an individual's real-world conscious thoughts. Look up Sherry Turkle for more

Does anonymity and zero consequences allow people to become who they really are?

To know how good you are you must know your dark side, by role-playing evil you can understand the thinking of the dark side. We all have it, you can not deny it. As a warrior of light in real life I like to exercise my mind by being as evil as I can in social game like EVE. Its fun and it doesn't hurt anyone, just remember its a game.

There's a vast yawning chasm between Gǣallow to becomeGǥ and GǣtellGǥ. The problem is that a lot of nutters are adamant that the latter must be the caseGǪ

There is also an equally yawning chasm between GÇ£allow to becomeGÇ¥ and simply GÇ£becomeGÇ¥, and the inability to distinguish between the two is in and of itself a pathology of some sort.