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Grim Vandal
   |
Posted - 2004.09.06 23:14:00 -
[31]
I tested the DOT of long range guns. Target was a Giant secure container each time. Each time 2 km within the optimal range of each gun!
The ships were not moving at all. (Transversal velocity 0 m/s)
The following test shows HOW BAD the 1400mm howitzer's DOT is EVEN WITHOUT the need of tracking!
First test 425mm Railgun I
Skills:
Large hybrid turret lv 4
Gallente BS lv 4
surgical strike lv 4
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway lol)
Ship: Megathron
Results:
194 shots fired
27,02 dmg/sec
Second test Tachyon Laser I
Skills:
Large energy turret lv 3
surgical strike lv 4
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway)
Ship: Megathron
Results:
194 shots fired
26,86 dmg/sec
Third test 1400mm howitzer I
Skills:
Large projectile turret lv 5
Minmatar BS lv 5
surgical strike lv 5
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway)
Ship: Tempest
Results:
77 shots fired
23,77 dmg/sec
Each test was done on chaos! Since I cant fly minmatar ships myself I found a willing person to help me testing the 1400mm. His name is EA NightShade and he HAS MAXED OUT SKILLS ON CHAOS!!!
The fact that you will have a chance of 1 % to do wrecking hits hurts the long range projectile users the most! Due to their really bad ROF. Even more will a 1400mm suffer WAY MORE FROM misses than any other gun due to its HIGH ROF again. On top of that it has the WORST TRACKING of all guns and on top of that it has the WORST AMMO eg. large emp = 44 dmg whereas the antimatter ammo has 48 as well as the multi frequency. ON TOP OF THAT the projectile gun needs 2 BONUSES FOR THEIR DOT TO GET at least a bit usefull (eg. meathron has a better dot with rails PLUS it gets a tracking bonus!!) AND ON TOP OF THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE MAXED OUT SKILLS IN GUNNERY AND LV 5 MINMATAR BS TO GET THE DOT OF A TACHYON WITH LV 2 IN LARGE ENERGY TURRET AND LV 4 SURGICAL STRIKE !!!! ON TOP OF THAT THE TEMPEST GETS THIS BONUS FOR "ONLY" 6 OF ITS HIGH SLOTS (while it cant even fit them easily, most of the times only 5x 1400mm!!!) ON TOP OF THAT IT HAS TO RELOAD WAY MORE THAN ANY OTHER GUN!!!!
Only "advantage" it uses nearly no cap but the tempest has also the worst cap!!!! And it can switch its dmg BUT most tanks are equally tanked in all 4 resistance types. And even more you cant switch to ONE SPECIFIC dmg type so its a really a moot point to see it as an advantage and moreover you will never figure out which is the lowest resistance of a target like with missile SINCE YOU CANT SWITCH TO ONE SPECIFIC DMG TYPE and besides that you will do LESS DOT most of the times since you have to reload all the times ...
So you see the 1400mm howitzer has some SERIOUS DRAWBACKS
I think ONE 1400mm howitzer I on a tempest SHOULD DO THE SAME DOT AS ONE Tachyon Laser I on an ARMAGEDDON
If that happens we will have the following:
Armageddon and tempest will be the 2 ships with the highest possible long range guns (although its unlikly that an arma will use tachs) The Megathron or Dominix with one 425mm rail will still be quite powerfull and will do slightly more dot as an apoc with one tach. The Typhoon with 1400mm will do nearly the same dmg as an apoc with tachs BUT it can fit only a maximum of 4 1400mm while the apoc could fit 8 tachs!!!
So in this case a tempest pilot will actually be a dmg dealer like the armageddon. Currently the tempest (with maxed skills) gives the 1400mm just enuf "bonus" to keep up with a bad skilled large long range laser user ...
On a side note: Pulse lasers are overpowered, Blasters work as intended and Autocannons do their job.
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.09.06 23:14:00 -
[32]
I tested the DOT of long range guns. Target was a Giant secure container each time. Each time 2 km within the optimal range of each gun!
The ships were not moving at all. (Transversal velocity 0 m/s)
The following test shows HOW BAD the 1400mm howitzer's DOT is EVEN WITHOUT the need of tracking!
First test 425mm Railgun I
Skills:
Large hybrid turret lv 4
Gallente BS lv 4
surgical strike lv 4
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway lol)
Ship: Megathron
Results:
194 shots fired
27,02 dmg/sec
Second test Tachyon Laser I
Skills:
Large energy turret lv 3
surgical strike lv 4
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway)
Ship: Megathron
Results:
194 shots fired
26,86 dmg/sec
Third test 1400mm howitzer I
Skills:
Large projectile turret lv 5
Minmatar BS lv 5
surgical strike lv 5
Gunnery lv 5 (needed anyway)
Ship: Tempest
Results:
77 shots fired
23,77 dmg/sec
Each test was done on chaos! Since I cant fly minmatar ships myself I found a willing person to help me testing the 1400mm. His name is EA NightShade and he HAS MAXED OUT SKILLS ON CHAOS!!!
The fact that you will have a chance of 1 % to do wrecking hits hurts the long range projectile users the most! Due to their really bad ROF. Even more will a 1400mm suffer WAY MORE FROM misses than any other gun due to its HIGH ROF again. On top of that it has the WORST TRACKING of all guns and on top of that it has the WORST AMMO eg. large emp = 44 dmg whereas the antimatter ammo has 48 as well as the multi frequency. ON TOP OF THAT the projectile gun needs 2 BONUSES FOR THEIR DOT TO GET at least a bit usefull (eg. meathron has a better dot with rails PLUS it gets a tracking bonus!!) AND ON TOP OF THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE MAXED OUT SKILLS IN GUNNERY AND LV 5 MINMATAR BS TO GET THE DOT OF A TACHYON WITH LV 2 IN LARGE ENERGY TURRET AND LV 4 SURGICAL STRIKE !!!! ON TOP OF THAT THE TEMPEST GETS THIS BONUS FOR "ONLY" 6 OF ITS HIGH SLOTS (while it cant even fit them easily, most of the times only 5x 1400mm!!!) ON TOP OF THAT IT HAS TO RELOAD WAY MORE THAN ANY OTHER GUN!!!!
Only "advantage" it uses nearly no cap but the tempest has also the worst cap!!!! And it can switch its dmg BUT most tanks are equally tanked in all 4 resistance types. And even more you cant switch to ONE SPECIFIC dmg type so its a really a moot point to see it as an advantage and moreover you will never figure out which is the lowest resistance of a target like with missile SINCE YOU CANT SWITCH TO ONE SPECIFIC DMG TYPE and besides that you will do LESS DOT most of the times since you have to reload all the times ...
So you see the 1400mm howitzer has some SERIOUS DRAWBACKS
I think ONE 1400mm howitzer I on a tempest SHOULD DO THE SAME DOT AS ONE Tachyon Laser I on an ARMAGEDDON
If that happens we will have the following:
Armageddon and tempest will be the 2 ships with the highest possible long range guns (although its unlikly that an arma will use tachs) The Megathron or Dominix with one 425mm rail will still be quite powerfull and will do slightly more dot as an apoc with one tach. The Typhoon with 1400mm will do nearly the same dmg as an apoc with tachs BUT it can fit only a maximum of 4 1400mm while the apoc could fit 8 tachs!!!
So in this case a tempest pilot will actually be a dmg dealer like the armageddon. Currently the tempest (with maxed skills) gives the 1400mm just enuf "bonus" to keep up with a bad skilled large long range laser user ...
On a side note: Pulse lasers are overpowered, Blasters work as intended and Autocannons do their job.
Greetings Grim |
Selim
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 00:40:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Selim on 07/09/2004 00:42:31
Totally agree with ya Grim.
Thats not even to mention that Railguns can get higher range than projectiles with the long range ammo!  Thats even including falloff.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:40:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Selim on 07/09/2004 00:42:31
Totally agree with ya Grim.
Thats not even to mention that Railguns can get higher range than projectiles with the long range ammo! Thats even including falloff.
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Davey Stomper
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:36:00 -
[35]
Always people whine about the tempest being so useless, wah this, boo hoo that....You ppl sadly fail to see the big picture about the tempest and just immediately without even thinking it through you jump on the "tempest isn't good" bandwagon and start screaming with caps on forums. |
Davey Stomper
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 01:36:00 -
[36]
Always people whine about the tempest being so useless, wah this, boo hoo that....You ppl sadly fail to see the big picture about the tempest and just immediately without even thinking it through you jump on the "tempest isn't good" bandwagon and start screaming with caps on forums. |
Hakera
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 01:39:00 -
[37]
 Originally by: Davey Stomper
Always people whine about the tempest being so useless, wah this, boo hoo that....You ppl sadly fail to see the big picture about the tempest and just immediately without even thinking it through you jump on the "tempest isn't good" bandwagon and start screaming with caps on forums.
please enlighten me as my nigh on a year of flying the tempest seemingly as taught me nothing on its abilities and how to equip it other than in recent months my phoon is a better ship than it and almost every other bs is better than it. Its at the bottom of the tier 2 bs, its below half of the teir 1's tbh.
The tempest itself is fine, projectile crapiness and cap relay nerf make it crud. Aside form the possibility of perhaps 20 more cpu i sometimes feel.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 01:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Davey Stomper
Always people whine about the tempest being so useless, wah this, boo hoo that....You ppl sadly fail to see the big picture about the tempest and just immediately without even thinking it through you jump on the "tempest isn't good" bandwagon and start screaming with caps on forums.
please enlighten me as my nigh on a year of flying the tempest seemingly as taught me nothing on its abilities and how to equip it other than in recent months my phoon is a better ship than it and almost every other bs is better than it. Its at the bottom of the tier 2 bs, its below half of the teir 1's tbh.
The tempest itself is fine, projectile crapiness and cap relay nerf make it crud. Aside form the possibility of perhaps 20 more cpu i sometimes feel.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
ArcticWolf
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 02:44:00 -
[39]
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km, the further out you go, the less tracking you need. if your stationary and a ceptor is orbiting you at 4km/s at 150km range, you WILL hit it. dont beleive me, test it. doesnt take very long to kill a frig even if 1 of your hits every volly hits him. so long range tracking doest matter. now with tachyons, they are cap heavy and due to amarr ships, like the apoc, 4 med slots, limits is guns to a smaller range than the tempest with 5. Now the megathron, sure 425mms are good, but recently, intented or not, everyone has been saying their optimal range has been decreased, if this is true, then good, that makes the 1400s usefull, youll be able to get longer ranges with the 1400s then. if u go in with a few closer range friends, with your long range supuriority over 425mms (if they indeed have a lower opt) and tachyons, then youll be very safe from damage from these turrets, and at such a long range, missiles or anything wont come near you. the reeeally long range setup works great with little risk to you. toss in 2 close range megathrons as friends and ull be good off. now ccp just needs to add maybe just 5km optimal and a 100km warp in...
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ArcticWolf
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 02:44:00 -
[40]
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km, the further out you go, the less tracking you need. if your stationary and a ceptor is orbiting you at 4km/s at 150km range, you WILL hit it. dont beleive me, test it. doesnt take very long to kill a frig even if 1 of your hits every volly hits him. so long range tracking doest matter. now with tachyons, they are cap heavy and due to amarr ships, like the apoc, 4 med slots, limits is guns to a smaller range than the tempest with 5. Now the megathron, sure 425mms are good, but recently, intented or not, everyone has been saying their optimal range has been decreased, if this is true, then good, that makes the 1400s usefull, youll be able to get longer ranges with the 1400s then. if u go in with a few closer range friends, with your long range supuriority over 425mms (if they indeed have a lower opt) and tachyons, then youll be very safe from damage from these turrets, and at such a long range, missiles or anything wont come near you. the reeeally long range setup works great with little risk to you. toss in 2 close range megathrons as friends and ull be good off. now ccp just needs to add maybe just 5km optimal and a 100km warp in...
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ErrorS
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Posted - 2004.09.07 02:55:00 -
[41]
Yea.. the whole world is wrong and the Tempest is the best ship in the game.
BLAME THE USERS!
rediculous.. just shows there is a problem
________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
ErrorS
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 02:55:00 -
[42]
Yea.. the whole world is wrong and the Tempest is the best ship in the game.
BLAME THE USERS!
rediculous.. just shows there is a problem
________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
ActiveX
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 03:00:00 -
[43]
When the hell will a ceptor orbit at 150 km...
Theories are fine, but practical application is what is important.
____________
Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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ActiveX
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 03:00:00 -
[44]
When the hell will a ceptor orbit at 150 km...
Theories are fine, but practical application is what is important.
____________
Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
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Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 05:35:00 -
[45]
Originally by: ActiveX
When the hell will a ceptor orbit at 150 km...
Theories are fine, but practical application is what is important.
Yes and the practical application of a 1400mm is? 1400mms get into their own at 40km+ And the further out the better, for the 1400 that is. If you intend to fight closer then that, go with 1200, and drop grid enhancers for damage mods. Afraid the original point stands, it's the pilots. Ofcourse you know something about a tempest, but things changed, and a Tempest is still the best at what most people say on here it should be the best at, long range. Straight up damage comparisons are fine and all. But a 1400 with EMP has it's sweetspot far further out then a rail with anti for isntance. Just have to stop looking at that stat window for a while, and at that log and forget what you think. Pretend to be a n00b and figure out the tempest again, you might be suprised. Just stop hitting cans at 30km and going omfg I do less damage then that other guy.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 05:35:00 -
[46]
Originally by: ActiveX
When the hell will a ceptor orbit at 150 km...
Theories are fine, but practical application is what is important.
Yes and the practical application of a 1400mm is? 1400mms get into their own at 40km+ And the further out the better, for the 1400 that is. If you intend to fight closer then that, go with 1200, and drop grid enhancers for damage mods. Afraid the original point stands, it's the pilots. Ofcourse you know something about a tempest, but things changed, and a Tempest is still the best at what most people say on here it should be the best at, long range. Straight up damage comparisons are fine and all. But a 1400 with EMP has it's sweetspot far further out then a rail with anti for isntance. Just have to stop looking at that stat window for a while, and at that log and forget what you think. Pretend to be a n00b and figure out the tempest again, you might be suprised. Just stop hitting cans at 30km and going omfg I do less damage then that other guy.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arleonenis
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 06:56:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Arleonenis on 07/09/2004 06:58:44
I have almost all tempest/projectile related skills at lvl5 and tempest isnt ok, its far away from ok, and yes i use scaner and transversal velocity.
And noobie noobie, try to fight 2, 3 npc long range battleships with escort without any tank... you will eat dust in no time, and 5 gyros and 2 tracking comps to do damage that could be overcome by most other bss with almost no skills and mods? RIIIGHT tempest is good, but for recycling IMHO
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:56:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Arleonenis on 07/09/2004 06:58:44
I have almost all tempest/projectile related skills at lvl5 and tempest isnt ok, its far away from ok, and yes i use scaner and transversal velocity.
And noobie noobie, try to fight 2, 3 npc long range battleships with escort without any tank... you will eat dust in no time, and 5 gyros and 2 tracking comps to do damage that could be overcome by most other bss with almost no skills and mods? RIIIGHT tempest is good, but for recycling IMHO
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Acheman
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:03:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Acheman on 07/09/2004 07:41:23
It is nice to see actual numbers to support the argument the Tempest is the worst tier 2 Battleship. I believe it from the overwhelming evidence and 100's of posts.
I also doubt those blaming the pilots actually fly Tempests, when given the choice. They also have no data to support their argument, just rhetoric. They are afraid their own battleship of choice will no longer be the uber BS of Eve. The original post should be titled "Minority Report on Tempest" because it states the opinions of a very small minority of players.
Perfect balancing will never happen, but the Tempest needs coding help to become competitive. The Tempest pilots and the more numerous ex-pilots have already proven the point.
Acheman
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Acheman
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 07:03:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Acheman on 07/09/2004 07:41:23
It is nice to see actual numbers to support the argument the Tempest is the worst tier 2 Battleship. I believe it from the overwhelming evidence and 100's of posts.
I also doubt those blaming the pilots actually fly Tempests, when given the choice. They also have no data to support their argument, just rhetoric. They are afraid their own battleship of choice will no longer be the uber BS of Eve. The original post should be titled "Minority Report on Tempest" because it states the opinions of a very small minority of players.
Perfect balancing will never happen, but the Tempest needs coding help to become competitive. The Tempest pilots and the more numerous ex-pilots have already proven the point.
Acheman
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:41:00 -
[51]
ok this is numbers:
For example of how minmatar bss "works":
weapon: 1400mm
target: npc bs
transversal velocity: <20
range: 35km
ammo: emp
optimal range: 34km
misses: 1/3 shots missed
average damage per shot: 100
same with 80km optimal range ammo and bs at 75km
Skills:
minmatar bs lvl5
projectile lvl4
motion prediction lvl5
surgical strike lvl4
Mods:
tracking comp 2
trackin enhancer 2
2 gyrostabilizers 2
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:41:00 -
[52]
ok this is numbers:
For example of how minmatar bss "works":
weapon: 1400mm
target: npc bs
transversal velocity: <20
range: 35km
ammo: emp
optimal range: 34km
misses: 1/3 shots missed
average damage per shot: 100
same with 80km optimal range ammo and bs at 75km
Skills:
minmatar bs lvl5
projectile lvl4
motion prediction lvl5
surgical strike lvl4
Mods:
tracking comp 2
trackin enhancer 2
2 gyrostabilizers 2
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:47:00 -
[53]
what makes me laugh is the people that dont fly minmater ships saying there isnt a problem.
This is an evolving game, one that has had many 'tweaks' recently...should the players that spend a year + specialising in a certain ship type just roll over and move to another ship type just to remain competitive?
An mmo by its nature relies on its customers for feedback, what the majority of people are doing by bringing their comments to these forums is trying to enlighten the devs that somethings were overcooked/not balanced/bugged and to share their experiences with others.
With new tier2 turrets in game and the additional months of training time dont you think its fair that people who are unhappy with the performance of projectile speak now before they have large turret specialisation5 trained.
It took us months and dozens of posts (hundreds of players)just to get a dev comment on this.....and they currently agree with the main bulk of people.
So lets see, the majority of minmater bs pilots, and the devs are wrong and articwolf is right? rofl...go back under your bridge.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:47:00 -
[54]
what makes me laugh is the people that dont fly minmater ships saying there isnt a problem.
This is an evolving game, one that has had many 'tweaks' recently...should the players that spend a year + specialising in a certain ship type just roll over and move to another ship type just to remain competitive?
An mmo by its nature relies on its customers for feedback, what the majority of people are doing by bringing their comments to these forums is trying to enlighten the devs that somethings were overcooked/not balanced/bugged and to share their experiences with others.
With new tier2 turrets in game and the additional months of training time dont you think its fair that people who are unhappy with the performance of projectile speak now before they have large turret specialisation5 trained.
It took us months and dozens of posts (hundreds of players)just to get a dev comment on this.....and they currently agree with the main bulk of people.
So lets see, the majority of minmater bs pilots, and the devs are wrong and articwolf is right? rofl...go back under your bridge.
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Fedaykin Naib
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:19:00 -
[55]
FIX MY TEMPEST!
"Long Live the Fighters!"
"The weak come and go with time. The strong have remained" - v ger
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Fedaykin Naib
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:19:00 -
[56]
FIX MY TEMPEST!
"Long Live the Fighters!"
"The weak come and go with time. The strong have remained" - v ger
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FZappa
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 08:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ArcticWolf
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km,
they nerfed trackers , its very hard to snipe now .
imho the trackers nerf was the last nail in the 1400's coffin.
might work on a phoon , but then your damage will be much lower
then the tempest can deal atm (which isnt much)
-------------------------
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FZappa
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: ArcticWolf
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km,
they nerfed trackers , its very hard to snipe now .
imho the trackers nerf was the last nail in the 1400's coffin.
might work on a phoon , but then your damage will be much lower
then the tempest can deal atm (which isnt much)
-------------------------
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Artegg
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Posted - 2004.09.07 09:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: ArcticWolf
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km,
Arctic this is all very well when you can warp in at 100kms but atm you cant.
This is all very well when you are not jumping in to a system and landing smack in the middle of a camp.
Saying things like i can hit a ceptor at 140kms when it orbits me is just a bit dumb if you ask me how many time on TQ have you seen this happen?
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Artegg
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Posted - 2004.09.07 09:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: ArcticWolf
The 1400mms have bad tracking, blah blah blah, poor DoT, but the ship is still usefull. at over 100km,
Arctic this is all very well when you can warp in at 100kms but atm you cant.
This is all very well when you are not jumping in to a system and landing smack in the middle of a camp.
Saying things like i can hit a ceptor at 140kms when it orbits me is just a bit dumb if you ask me how many time on TQ have you seen this happen?
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