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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:26:00 -
[1]
If it wasn't already clear enough from ST:TOS ("Amok Time" being the prime candidate), it's not that Vulcans don't have any emotions at all (quite the contrary), it's that the CONTROL of those emotions is one of the core concepts that's being taught from early childhood, with rational thought being considered something of a virtue, if not downright a second nature.
Now, the latest Star Trek movie makes this particular aspect abundantly clear, even if it's mostly presented via the half-Vulcan, half-Human Spock... we also get one scene where Spock's father admits to marying his wife because he loved her, not because "it was the logical choice" as he kept claiming most of his life.
Now... I wonder... just how well would that translate in real-life ?
Personally, I think I was strongly influenced by this idea in my adolescence, and I actually apply it in real-life from time to time... well, at least partially, and to the bst of my limited "emotional control" abilities - and no, my "forum personality" is not representative of my real-life "public persona". I am much more coleric over here and let my emotions run wild a lot more often than I let them in real-life.
The results are not always that great though, I have been more than once been characterized by people as "excessively calm" or "emotionally numb", even sometimes by people who I thought might know me better than that (not my close friends, just some relatively close aquaintances).
So... do you think a HUMAN society could benefit from this, or are we just too far away for that to have any effect whatsoever ? Or, if it could work, do we want it to work at all ? Would it be beneficial, or damaging ?
I;m just looking for personal opinions, not science treaties about the negative side-effects of repression of emotion or anything like that 
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:30:00 -
[2]
Hahaha DORK!!!!
Pomp FTW!!! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:33:00 -
[3]
Well, I said "influenced"  My first encounter with ST:TOS was at about the age of 16, and I already had similar ideas since at least 3 years earlier (but for the life of me can't remember where from, what other sci-fi could have had similar concepts). The character of "Spock" just cemented my ideas faster and stronger.
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Xtreem
Gallente
Knockaround Guys Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:42:00 -
[4]
To the extent that the vulcans do, no i think it would ruin "living" Whats life without things like love? laughter?
However limiting them more would be good, people thinking things though more, talking more, higher restraint.
I get really fed up reading the paper or watching the news, filled with war, murder, ****, seniors being beaten for loose change makes me sick.
So i guess it comes down to, I'd prefer no emotions if it got rid of that all together however i would prefer if the more negative parts of our persona were calmed rather than than it being none or all.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2009.05.18 02:48:00 -
[5]
If people all acted perfectly logically, we could accomplish so much more, but emotions are what give our accomplishments meaning. Logically, I see no reason why our species needs to continue itself. I do wish people would get a hold of themselves a bit, though. Never again would I have to listen to a friend ***** about how his girl treats him like crap, but he "loves her" anyway.
In before Ralara. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:04:00 -
[6]
To give you a practical example (and most of those arguments are with my GF, which is the epitome of emotionality and complete opposite of logical thought)... some sample conversations... slightly adapted...
SAMPLE 1
GF : Why don't you like to travel ? I love to travel !
Me : Because going there is pretty much the same as watching a movie filmed there or watching some pictures.
GF : But it's not the same, you have to feel the scenery, you have to see the sights, you have to <blah blah blah>
Me : The only things remaining will be memories. The memories will be very similar to those I get by watching the movies or seeing the pictures.
GF : You're hopeless !
SAMPLE 2
GF : Do you like this <particular piece of jewlery> ?
Me : It's not unpleasant. Looks decent enough, I guess.
GF : But do you like it ?
Me : Not really. It has nothing special. I have seen much better handiwork.
GF : But it's a designer label, it's expensive, it's <blah blah>
Me : So what ?
GF : You're hopeless !
SAMPLE 3
GF : Have I gained weight ?
Me : <looks up and down> not noticeably, no.
GF: You're hopeless !
SAMPLE 4
GF : How much do you love me ?
Me : That again ? Ungh. Do I really have to say it on a regular basis ? I'll let you know when I feel differently.
[...]
half an hour later
[...]
GF : You're hopeless !
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Toldos Leafkicker
Tenichigo Kaigun
Spectrum Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Toldos Leafkicker on 18/05/2009 03:26:33
I don't know how you'd come to believe that memories obtained from traveling are similar to those from television. How illogical. Now holodecks, on the other hand!
Anyway, if we ignore the Vulcans in Star Trek: Enterprise, then yes, society would probably be better off.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:39:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Toldos Leafkicker
I don't know how you'd come to believe that memories obtained from traveling are similar to those from television.
Well, similar, not identical.
I mean, I don't have to go visit the Niagara Falls to know how they would look nor feel like, I can picture them in my head in a satisfactory manner from movies and pictures... probably, the mental image of the Niagara Falls I have in my head already is superior in quality to the actual memories I would aquire by actually visiting them in real life, since there would be no annoying water-splashing and "omfg, so cold" feelings associated with it in the first place.
The same logic can be expanded to just about anything... like, say, fireworks. I never understood the fascination people have with fireworks, it's just arranged explosion causing light in the sky. Whenever somebody says to me "come see the fireworks" I have to control myself to not snap at them, and simply say "thanks, but no, thanks, not interested". I mean, seriously, you've seen a couple of fireworks, you've seen it all already. There's no fireworks show that can even compete with the fireworks shows I can imagine in my head...
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Toldos Leafkicker
Tenichigo Kaigun
Spectrum Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:49:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Toldos Leafkicker on 18/05/2009 03:51:09
Originally by: Akita T
I mean, I don't have to go visit the Niagara Falls to know how they would look nor feel like, I can picture them in my head in a satisfactory manner from movies and pictures... probably, the mental image of the Niagara Falls I have in my head already is superior in quality to the actual memories I would aquire by actually visiting them in real life, since there would be no annoying water-splashing and "omfg, so cold" feelings associated with it in the first place.
The same logic can be expanded to just about anything... like, say, fireworks. I never understood the fascination people have with fireworks, it's just arranged explosion causing light in the sky. Whenever somebody says to me "come see the fireworks" I have to control myself to not snap at them, and simply say "thanks, but no, thanks, not interested". I mean, seriously, you've seen a couple of fireworks, you've seen it all already. There's no fireworks show that can even compete with the fireworks shows I can imagine in my head...
You're hopeless!
I do understand what you're saying, though I think I'd argue with ya too.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Toldos Leafkicker
You're hopeless!
That's what she said
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Florio
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:34:00 -
[11]
If those example conversations are approximately truthful, then it is only a matter of time before your GF leaves you.
How's that for logic. You sociopath. ;)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:39:00 -
[12]
Oh, she's waaaay worse than me I should know, I educated her that way 
Considering we've been together for nearly 8 years now, that's probabaly not the case anymore.
I thought her to be assertive, independent and confident... if that doesn't ruin her chances with most available men on the planet, I failed in my task
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WhiteSavage
Gallente
Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.05.18 05:58:00 -
[13]
naw
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F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards
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Posted - 2009.05.18 06:05:00 -
[14]
Isn't that what Buddhist monks basically do?
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba
Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero!  /me bows
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.18 06:47:00 -
[15]
Akita T - About fireworks displays I sort of agree. Most of my imagined ones, if experienced in RL, would only be experienced once.
----------------------------------------------
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.18 06:51:00 -
[16]
When im around most people I try to take an attitude rather similar to spock... being slightly younger than yourself, it could be said he played a role in my growing up (some could say too major a role).
i cant say I am quite there yet, but it works fairly well most of the time 
Originally by: Akita T
Seriously ?
...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !
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DasDizzy
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.05.18 07:43:00 -
[17]
It would be rather logical
[SIG START]
Everything i say is the view of the rest of the eve cluster, IM THE PRESSDUDE FFS
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BlackDragonShadow
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.18 08:02:00 -
[18]
No. As we've seen time and time again and as Star Trek has pointed out. Human feelings are what makes us human. True we do things that are illogical like murder people for no good god damn reason but we also do amazing things. Like have compassion for others etc. The best would be to have feelings but let them be judged logically by the harm they would do others vs the benefits. I think that would be a pretty good way to go.
This sig was awesome but needs more EvE related content. - Mitnal
Fine. EVE Online |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.18 09:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: BlackDragonShadow
Human feelings are what makes us human.
Yes, but there are such things as "bad" feelings and "good" feelings.
Rationally speaking, we could just as well "fake" the exact response of the "good" ones, and ignore the "bad" ones, couldn't we?
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Cpt Placeholder
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Posted - 2009.05.18 11:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
Me : The only things remaining will be memories. The memories will be very similar to those I get by watching the movies or seeing the pictures.
Your whole identity is just memories.
Admittedly, the cost of traveling is much higher than the benefits (for your average income), but saying it's the same or similar to watching it in a movie is foolish, a movie can't offer more than pictures and sounds.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.05.18 12:19:00 -
[21]
IMHO, it shouldn't be about suppressing your feelings but about controlling you decisions and actions.
It is an ability of our sentience and advanced consciousness that allows us to observe our own thinking and feeling and reflect on the functionality. Once one's own behavior is understood in its causal functionality, it can be intentionally altered and controlled. It allows us to change the priority and authority of emotional and instinctual motivators and give them a more reasonable, logical perspective.
This monitoring of one's own self is important to balance out the creative abilities of our mind, cross checking if what we make up is actually in line with reality. Checking if what we belief to be true is actually true or just made up and/or conjecture. Self awareness is essential to balance out a malleable mind that can create its own reality.
Those two attributes, imho, are what set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Alas, they are rarely used to the fullest potential.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Corwain
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Posted - 2009.05.18 12:29:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Corwain on 18/05/2009 12:31:02
I think I'll one up you on the nerd meter here and quote Mr. Whedon:
"Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unwanted, unbidden, it will stir. Open it's jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us. Passion rules us all, and we obey. What other choice do we have?
Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love, the clarity of hatred, and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we can live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead."
--
Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.05.18 13:30:00 -
[23]
I find that watching someone climb up a waterfall on TV to be not as exciting as doing it for yourself
As to the topic, I'm British so I cant go 10 min without finding something funny in any situation.
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Mercurye
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.18 13:53:00 -
[24]
I like your GF, but I can understand you to a degree aswell
For me it wouldnt be the Vulcan way, but the Betazoid ( from Star Trek ^^ )
--~--~--~--~
~NOTE: Freak~ |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.05.18 14:18:00 -
[25]
Which type of vulcan do you want to become?
There's the prelogic primitives that damn near destroyed the planet because of their passions.
There's the Enterprise era machiavellian vulcans... cold, evil bastards.
And there's the more modern version that has logic and ethics.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.05.18 14:24:00 -
[26]
I was under the impression everyone got the samurai overtones of the vulcans, I was wrong.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Auron Truthseeker
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Posted - 2009.05.18 15:09:00 -
[27]
Hello
I've never been much of a star trek fan, so I can't really tell what exactly you're talking about.
But from your description of this way of life I pretty much already follow those virtues.
I find actions based in passion and emotion very fallible, because emotions are designed so to fit the situation that brings them up, and they have, as I see it, been designed so in a proces of trial and error that characterices evolution.
Not only are emotions likely inefficient in the situation they are called upon, but more so they are completely unfit for more unknown situations. Emotions are a primitive thing.
Instead logic gives an exact and infallible answer to every situation. Logic is infallible by definition. Every problem can be solved by perfect mathematical precision.
So yes I base most of my decisions on logic, but wether the entire humankind is ready to accept the right way of thinking to the way of thinking that seems right based on the primitive emotions we as an intelligent living being are given through our genetic code and external influence from others is another thing.
I think our society could definatly benefit from such a way of thinking because of the optimal thinking effeciency, but I don't think most would be willing to take some distance from the emotions they trust so.
Sorry if I made to much of a wall of text, got a little bit carried away
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Corwain
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Posted - 2009.05.18 16:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Auron Truthseeker
Logic is infallible by definition.
You're an idiot. Ever heard of flawed logic? Logic is infallible IN THEORY...in reality it is an unattainable ideal. To be completely logical you would also have to know everything, to have all the facts. Nobody knows everything and so in reality logic fails just as often as passion.
--
Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Auron Truthseeker
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Posted - 2009.05.18 17:11:00 -
[29]
If the data you apply logic on is lacking or outright false you may indeed come to a false conclusion, however the logic you use in the proces is not necesarely false.
The conclusions you would make using said information would, based on the data, would still be logically correct since you make those conclusions for the specific case that the data is correct, but it is not necesarely so.
Just because the information you use is not correct does not mean that the logic isn't correct.
Also I think we're reasonable enough to refrain from using name calling as arguments no?
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.05.18 17:19:00 -
[30]
I would rather die than live without love or laughter. I think most people would too. And I am in the demographic of more boring/self controlled people.
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