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has eve surpassed the edge of possible mmo technology?

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Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:00:00 - [1] with so many things going wrong in the latest patch(es), with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; massive sound issues; massive unintended effects; etc. etc. (the list is long) i wonder if they have exceeded the possibilities that are realistic with the current available technology for mmos? or are they able to push it even further? ..... walking in stations anyone? maybe they had to delay it for that long because they just cant make it work due to exceeding the possible technologies, same with atmospheric flight?
Falgoria Amarr Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:02:00 - [2] Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it.
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Falgoria Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it. i know, but the recent bugs were pretty massive
Arcelian Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:03:00 - [4] I play Eve on a think pad. Didn't have any issues whatsoever. Doesn't star wars galaxies have ambulation and space travel? I don't know, never played it, but I think I've heard of it. In my opinion, the Eve we have today is just the tip of the iceberg.
Aelius Caldari Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Tamahra with so many things going wrong in the latest patch(es), with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; massive sound issues; massive unintended effects; etc. etc. (the list is long) i wonder if they have exceeded the possibilities that are realistic with the current available technology for mmos? or are they able to push it even further? ..... walking in stations anyone? maybe they had to delay it for that long because they just cant make it work due to exceeding the possible technologies, same with atmospheric flight? I think CCP's Devs are already in WH space trying to find T3 MMO stuff to feed their hamsters.
Telschak Gallente Picea Abies	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Tamahra with so many things going wrong in the latest patch(es), with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; massive sound issues; massive unintended effects; etc. etc. (the list is long) i wonder if they have exceeded the possibilities that are realistic with the current available technology for mmos? or are they able to push it even further? ..... walking in stations anyone? maybe they had to delay it for that long because they just cant make it work due to exceeding the possible technologies, same with atmospheric flight? Dude I seem to remeber a few years back that the eve client deleted the Boot.ini file in Windows...thus corruppting the operating system. So No i dont think the last patch was nearly the worst. Besides sofar CCP has come trough @ each misshapp
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:12:00 - [7] Edited by: Maria Kalista on 18/05/2009 11:15:21 Sound issues are the result of the integration of a brand new sound engine. Give them some time and it will be fixed. And there is this "little annoying thing (see quote)" that keeps happening over and over again. Quote: Originally by: Nekopyat Originally by: Sopha Serpentia Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 03/11/2008 16:59:14 You have too many staff working on too much stuff that has too little net reward for the player. CCP = more staff = less content. While it is true that there is a diminishing return on increasing the number of developers, what CCP seems to be suffering from is 'technical debt'.. i.e. the increasing cost of adding new features relative to the actual complexity of the new feature on it's own. EvE has become a spider web of 'feature A requires broken behavior of feature B which is needed to make C work', so adding or balancing any feature causes an avalanche of things that need to be adjusted at the same time. Quote: This is so spot on it's not even funny and with every expansion and patch we've been putting in more and more effort addressing technical debt. Agile development is also a way to address that in the long term with more best practices, refactoring etc. Executive Producer EVE Online Originally by: Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:14:00 - [8] well eve needs to have a total rewrite from the ground up it seems now. They're breaking things they didnt know couldnt break, breaking things that shouldnt break, and eve online is being quite picky lately and hardheaded about the new code it gets. IMO time for eve 5.0 Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 19Apr09
N'tek alar	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:14:00 - [9] You know, I'm fairly sure we'd see a lot more whining if "most" people were unable to install the newest patch >_>
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:26:00 - [10] WTH does technology limits have to do with a few gameplay bugs introduced in a patch? ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Cymru2000 Immortalis Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Tamahra with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; Wha? ------- GetThePod.com, streaming the best Eve videos straight to your eyeballs for over 17 minutes
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Falgoria Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it. i know, but the recent bugs were pretty massive Nah, we've just been spoiled by the last couple of patches. Revelations broke a ton of stuff, for instance. But really apart from the module activation delay after uncloaking - which was fixed within a couple of days, none of the bugs affected me. Actually, I'm surprised that more things don't go wrong after patches.
Doomed Predator The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.18 11:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Falgoria Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it. i know, but the recent bugs were pretty massive I take it you were not there when they deployed the dragon patch. Cause if you were you'd realise that the bugs and problems we have now are insignificant to what we had then. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Malcanis Nah, we've just been spoiled by the last couple of patches. Revelations broke a ton of stuff, for instance. This. Instead of patch day, we used to have patch days. Not to mention the week of generally avoiding eve for doing anything else then skillchanging after the patch because of bugs. _ Add your own line!
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Tamahra with so many things going wrong in the latest patch(es), with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; massive sound issues; massive unintended effects; etc. etc. (the list is long) i wonder if they have exceeded the possibilities that are realistic with the current available technology for mmos? or are they able to push it even further? ..... walking in stations anyone? maybe they had to delay it for that long because they just cant make it work due to exceeding the possible technologies, same with atmospheric flight? You know, I came in to this thread expecting an intelligent discussion about the issues regarding server load, and how Eve could handle the future population load that it will face. What do I see? A thinly veiled whine thread by someone who clearly understands NOTHING about game development and whose only reason to post is because he likes to point out everything wrong in the world. You're the type of person who goes around making "I quit Eve" posts and always comes back 2 weeks later. Click for gallery!
Kulat Minmatar Black Omega Security	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:05:00 - [16] Its ALOT better than it used to be , the game used to be basicly unplayable ( pvp wise anyway ) for weeks after a big patch with lag and server tweeking , you could write off the 2 weeks after a patch for any meaningful play . I like the unsharded one world of eve a cluster this size is bound to produce some " interesting " problems but so long as it does not gain self awareness i agree we are at the beginning of an new world of gaming .
Lonzo Kincaid Duty.	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:07:00 - [17] everything you've described are just problems with compatibility. actual problems with reaching the edge of technologies problems will just be network related, and problems processing everything that's happening in a system. ---------------------- Quote: The rule of thumb is you have to outnumber them 2:1 before you even think about engaging them
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:08:00 - [18] They pushed the boundaries of agile development...
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:15:00 - [19] I wonder if they use defensive programming mechanism
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Arcelian Doesn't star wars galaxies have ambulation and space travel? I don't know, never played it, but I think I've heard of it. more like the other way around its based on land and spacestations and has added space combat. However the game is terrible since it was changed and hardly worth mentioning next to a successful game such as eve.
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Sader Rykane What do I see? A thinly veiled whine thread by someone who clearly understands NOTHING about game development and whose only reason to post is because he likes to point out everything wrong in the world. You're the type of person who goes around making "I quit Eve" posts and always comes back 2 weeks later. i never made a "i quit eve" post so much for my w(-h)in(-e) thread.
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Kulat I like the unsharded one world of eve a cluster this size is bound to produce some " interesting " problems but so long as it does not gain self awareness i agree we are at the beginning of an new world of gaming . Thats why you always give programs a penalty for becoming skynet so it won't happen so soon. _ Add your own line!
rodensteiner	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:00:00 - [23] Originally by: N'tek alar You know, I'm fairly sure we'd see a lot more whining if "most" people were unable to install the newest patch >_> This. I have NEVER had a problem with patches. Ever. Not once. Which is a good thing, because I'm not very good with computers
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:05:00 - [24] Edited by: Tamahra on 18/05/2009 14:05:50 Originally by: rodensteiner because I'm not very good with computers me neither well at least i was able to find out how to activate the UI sounds again (by switching from "surround sound" to "desktop stereo speaker" in the system/audio menue in windows-xp) gonna have to see how this works out for the rest of the sounds in eve when i get back home, just bought a new sound card, maybe ill get rid of the apocrypha 1.2 sound issues.
Professor Perplex	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:15:00 - [25] Edited by: Professor Perplex on 18/05/2009 14:15:56 quite the opposite i think. the problems we are seeing with the recent patches is probably more due to the quicker development cycle that they are using now. before we had few patches and long periods between them so bugs were probably not as common as they were caught internally. i like what they are doing right now with the fast changes but they need to pay extra attention these days to the people reporting the problems they encounter on sisi. almost all problems have been found on sisi and reported but somehow that didnt ring the alarm bells. it seems to be a new dev system combined with an old quality control mechanism led to the problems. I m sure they ll learn from it though. edit: also ... wut???!!! eve has sound???!!!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:18:00 - [26] Nah this is just a small oopsie. I lived through the NGE so I know what a bad patch looks like.
Chaos Breeze Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Falgoria Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it. i know, but the recent bugs were pretty massive Guess you were not around for the boot.ini incident
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Professor Perplex i like what they are doing right now with the fast changes but they need to pay extra attention these days to the people reporting the problems they encounter on sisi. i like the fast updates and expansions too, thats for sure. the more content the better
SpaceSquirrels Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.18 14:57:00 - [29] LOL @ this post. Programming isn't like genetic engineering. They just didn't run it on the test server long enough. Bugs happen in every game. Also seeing as how hardware, speed doubles every what now? 2-4 years? Software trails behind hardware for obvious reasons. I'd say the next step for MMO's would be a "super computer" to run as a main server for games. However those cost millions of dollars, and likewise cost a ton of money to maintain. Further more each MMO is different because the game engines are all different from one another. So no we have not ****ed off god and gone to far... _________________________ I disagree...
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.18 15:15:00 - [30] So long as we don't repeat the Market/Escrow incident a few years back, were all good. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 ^Third Times a Charm^
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.05.18 15:23:00 - [31] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 18/05/2009 15:27:55 No they haven't, they're still bound by all the laws all MMO's adhere too, it's just that some MMO's are better executed or fill a different niche by doing a different style of universe. Quite frankly any technology that does break through the MMO mould would probably be so useful as to get put into all other MMO's ASAP anyway. There is a point in the OP though, it's sad that even now they're still updating premium models (Hyperion underbelly) months after when they first came out. There's always such a huge ambition to take everything further and add more that I don't think we'll ever see any real level of polish. Even when we get ambulation they'll start looking at planets etc... and there's always going to be some kind of gamebreaking patch around the corner.
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 15:39:00 - [32] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Quite frankly any technology that does break through the MMO mould would probably be so useful as to get put into all other MMO's ASAP anyway. if that was true we wouldnt see 1.000 wow clones being released almost every month (its a bit exaggerated but its almost true)
xTERRAx	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:00:00 - [33] Originally by: SpaceSquirrels LOL @ this post. Programming isn't like genetic engineering. They just didn't run it on the test server long enough. Bugs happen in every game. Too true.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:11:00 - [34] still... comparing a 1.2 patch to the dragon patch, revelation or any other "real" expansion....? you're argumenting it wrong -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
Alcoholic Bird	Posted - 2009.05.18 16:36:00 - [35] Edited by: Alcoholic Bird on 18/05/2009 16:36:24 Originally by: SpaceSquirrels LOL @ this post. Programming isn't like genetic engineering. They just didn't run it on the test server long enough. Bugs happen in every game. Also seeing as how hardware, speed doubles every what now? 2-4 years? Software trails behind hardware for obvious reasons. I'd say the next step for MMO's would be a "super computer" to run as a main server for games. However those cost millions of dollars, and likewise cost a ton of money to maintain. Further more each MMO is different because the game engines are all different from one another. So no we have not ****ed off god and gone to far... Kinda of correct except for the not hitting limits thing. Processing speed is suppose to double every few years but the problem is that everything these days are getting faster in the multithreading/multicore area. As far as I know the combat engine in EVE for instance is single threaded which already causes a technology problem. CCP have mentioned about using Nehalem Blades and turning off all cores but one to overclock them but even Intel have admitted that it will not produce huge results. The overclocking margin is quite small, at least in Intels eyes. If you are a hardcore overclocker you push it to the limits but remember CCP have to look at things such as power consumption, heat output, etc. If CCP wants to keep the combat engine single threaded they will either need to optimize it till their brains explode (limits will hit first) or design it on a system which has high clock speed processors such as the IBM Power chips that run around 5GHz. So to clarify in my opinion CCP are getting very close to hardware limits in certain aspects of EVE already unless they redesign certain areas. Currently, and I could be wrong here, CCP adding more server/cores will only allow them to move different tasks onto different servers. So market on one core Combat on another but each job will still be single threaded thus only putting off what might be the limit a few more months/years depending on how fast EVE grows. To answer the OPS question, this patch has broken a minimal amount compared to others but to be fair to CCP they do try and get it fixed ASAP.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Tamahra Originally by: Falgoria Pretty much every MMORPG creates a bunch of bug on patch days, You'll need to get use to it. i know, but the recent bugs were pretty massive actually no they are not massive. Massive would be the game being unplayable. Besides a few things they need to desrewup, and a few graphical issues the game still functions fine.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:24:00 - [37] They switched to "agile programming" since a while. It's a programming paradygm that allows for a tangible increase in "stuff" made "decently well", vs other alternatives delivering higher quality but very very little stuff added per expansion.
Nooma K'Larr Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.18 18:36:00 - [38] A game is only as good as its programmers. This isn't a shot at CCP...it's just stating a fact. We are not limited by technology, we are limited in how well we implement it.
Drunk Driver Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.05.18 19:53:00 - [39] Yes, Eve has passed the edge of current technology. They drove past it with the windows rolled down, blazing away with machine guns and hurling profanities.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.05.19 07:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Blane Xero So long as we don't repeat the Market/Escrow incident a few years back, were all good. Which one is that? It's been a while and I can't remember which one you mean. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Mr Crepsley Gallente SkillzKillz United For 0rder	Posted - 2009.05.19 10:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Telschak Originally by: Tamahra with so many things going wrong in the latest patch(es), with most people not even being able to install the newest patch; massive sound issues; massive unintended effects; etc. etc. (the list is long) i wonder if they have exceeded the possibilities that are realistic with the current available technology for mmos? or are they able to push it even further? ..... walking in stations anyone? maybe they had to delay it for that long because they just cant make it work due to exceeding the possible technologies, same with atmospheric flight? Dude I seem to remeber a few years back that the eve client deleted the Boot.ini file in Windows...thus corruppting the operating system. So No i dont think the last patch was nearly the worst. Besides sofar CCP has come trough @ each misshapp boot .ini was the day vista didn't fail in all seriousness these bugs are nothing compared to what has happened before to both eve and some other games ---- Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.05.19 10:52:00 - [42] I am not sure really what OP mean, or what he is fishing after, are you trying to stick bugs in program code to general technology?
Bestofworst Gallente Double Eagle Enterprises	Posted - 2009.05.19 10:54:00 - [43] It takes awhile for drastic changes to occur. Your family doesn't adjust to a newly discovered insane uncle the first day. ---- <Insert Wit>

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