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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
stinger7
eve tutors inc
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Posted - 2009.05.26 15:48:00 -
[211]
 Originally by: NightmareX
I have no point only troll...
Yup i thought so.
/Waits for a player with a idea worth hearing to join thread.
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NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 15:51:00 -
[212]
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
I have no point only troll...
Yup i thought so.
/Waits for a player with a idea worth hearing to join thread.
Are you an alt of Murina huh?.
Yeah i guess so, and i think i know why .
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
stinger7
eve tutors inc
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 15:57:00 -
[213]
Originally by: NightmareX
Troll.
So are you going to answer the question or just keep trolling.
As BS rails are used in close range BS pvp what makes you think reducing the tracking of pulse will help BS blasters at all, or make BS pulse poor at close range?.
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NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:00:00 -
[214]
Edited by: NightmareX on 26/05/2009 16:00:21
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
Troll.
So are you going to answer the question or just keep trolling.
As BS rails are used in close range BS pvp what makes you think reducing the tracking of pulse will help BS blasters at all, or make BS pulse poor at close range?.
I have explained multiple times over why nerfing the Lasers (Pulses) tracking will help Blasters and other things to.
I don't want to explain the same thing one more time because you can't read and because you don't understand how Blasters and Lasers are meant to work.
It's pointless no matter what to explain it to you one more time when you don't want to get it into your head.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
Grez
Minmatar
Core Contingency
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:06:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Grez on 26/05/2009 16:07:10
FYI lasers got a tracking boost because they couldn't hit anything orbiting them at 10km or under. Even inties with dual lights with tracking boosts couldn't hit other ships well whilst they were orbiting without the MWD on.
Hell, no ship really hits anything orbiting them real close at decent speeds. Same goes for all races. What on earth makes Gal so special as to negate the effect all other races are forced to live with?
Perhaps the answer is to lower the tracking penalty on T2 blaster ammo by a small amount.
---
Grez: I shot the sheriff
Kalazar: But I could not lock the Deputy BECAUSE OF FALCON |
stinger7
eve tutors inc
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 16:09:00 -
[216]
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
Troll.
So are you going to answer the question or just keep trolling.
As BS rails are used in close range BS pvp what makes you think reducing the tracking of pulse will help BS blasters at all, or make BS pulse poor at close range?.
I have explained multiple times over why nerfing the Lasers will help Blasters and other things to.
I don't want to explain the same thing one more time because you can't read and because you don't understand how Blasters and Lasers are meant to work.
It's pointless no matter what to explain it to you one more time when you don't want to get it into your head.
You explained nothing.
You gave a pointless and worthless history lesson and then claimed that nerfing pulse tracking will be a big solution to all problems.
Your understanding of the problem and your soloution is too limited because you ignore the fact that:
BS are gang ships and as such in gang combat a target will be well and truly webbed making tracking and transversal irrelavant. So even if you gave lasers the same tracking as 425mm rails they would still be effective for the sort of close range combat available to BS.
Its your lack of understanding and narrow blinkered veiw of the problem that is the problem.
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stinger7
eve tutors inc
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:18:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Grez
FYI lasers got a tracking boost because they couldn't hit anything orbiting them at 10km or under. Even inties with dual lights with tracking boosts couldn't hit other ships well whilst they were orbiting without the MWD on.
Hell, no ship really hits anything orbiting them real close at decent speeds. Same goes for all races. What on earth makes Gal so special as to negate the effect all other races are forced to live with?
Lasers do not live with it though.
Lasers do low or 0 dps against smaller ships orbiting close, but hit smaller ships at med range because they are aparantly med range weapons.
Blasters being close range weapons do low or 0 dps against small ships at med range, but in close range should hit as well as pulse do at med range.
So sensable pilots if blasters are fixed should orbit laser ships close and blaster ships at range, for ppl who preach about weapons being "diffferant" this should not be a hard concept to understand.
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NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:19:00 -
[218]
Edited by: NightmareX on 26/05/2009 16:26:25
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
Troll.
So are you going to answer the question or just keep trolling.
As BS rails are used in close range BS pvp what makes you think reducing the tracking of pulse will help BS blasters at all, or make BS pulse poor at close range?.
I have explained multiple times over why nerfing the Lasers will help Blasters and other things to.
I don't want to explain the same thing one more time because you can't read and because you don't understand how Blasters and Lasers are meant to work.
It's pointless no matter what to explain it to you one more time when you don't want to get it into your head.
You explained nothing.
You gave a pointless and worthless history lesson and then claimed that nerfing pulse tracking will be a big solution to all problems.
Your understanding of the problem and your soloution is too limited because you ignore the fact that:
BS are gang ships and as such in gang combat a target will be well and truly webbed making tracking and transversal irrelavant. So even if you gave lasers the same tracking as 425mm rails they would still be effective for the sort of close range combat available to BS.
Its your lack of understanding and narrow blinkered veiw of the problem that is the problem.
Yeah i gave no explanation to a lazy PVPer that only want his ultimate close range instakillmachine back because you simply don't want to adapt to the new changes in PVP after the web and speed got nerfed.
WOW, no suprise here .
And if the explanations over was no explanation to you, then nothing is explanation to you anyways, so you can just leave this topic instead of trolling here.
It's in fact you that have totally wrong understanding here on how Lasers (Pulses) and Blasters are SUPPOSED to work.
They are not supposed to work after how you want them to work because your a damn lazy PVPer who don't want to adapt to the new changes.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:49:00 -
[219]
Edited by: NightmareX on 26/05/2009 17:00:34
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
more insults and troll.
Its a simple concept realy although i know your limitations may make it difficult for you to understand so il explain slowly.
If you want to kite a laser BS in a cruiser you get in close.
If you want to kite a blaster BS in a cruiser you stay at range.
You can hardly say that blaster ships will be "instakill" machines just because a pilot is stupid enough to fight them at close range and gets melted, any more than laser ships are "instakill" machines if the same pilot chooses to fight them at med range and also gets melted.
This way cruisers still have the ability to easily kite the dmg of both systems but at the systems weakest areas/ranges....IE: lasers at close range and blasters at med/long range.
Murina, stop trolling here.
Your not getting anything that have with PVP to do no matter what someone tell you. So you can just say whatever you like. We don't care about your crap understanding on how things works in EVE when it's about PVP and weapons and ships.
I could have told this things with Blasters and lasers to a monkey and even he would understand what i'm saying.
Anyways, a question to you.
Would you agree with Darknesss if he got in this topic and told you how Blasters works and would you agree to DHB WildCat if he had got in this topic and told you how Lasers works?.
I'm sure you wouldn't even agree then. But to let you know, there isn't ANY points to get them here, because they would say the same as me. They would waste their times here with a player that is you Murina that don't have a single clue about how some weapons works.
Remember, i'm in the same corp as both of them. I know what they are saying about both Blasters and Lasers.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
stinger7
eve tutors inc
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Posted - 2009.05.26 17:00:00 -
[220]
Originally by: NightmareX
0 content + insults.
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
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NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 17:02:00 -
[221]
Originally by: stinger7
Originally by: NightmareX
0 content + insults.
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
Wow awesome reply to what i have written.
Nice job on the reply. You made a really hard work with that reply.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.26 17:04:00 -
[222]
Originally by: stinger7
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
While I don't disagree with your analysis of NightmareX, I will point out that on the top of the second page of this thread, I showed how an Abaddon can pretty much completely eliminate the need of a blasterthron - ever. Nerfing laser tracking would greatly mitigate by lowering the amount of damage that they can realistically do at close range. Thus, lasers stop impinging upon blaster territory.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
NightmareX
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 17:07:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: stinger7
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
While I don't disagree with your analysis of NightmareX, I will point out that on the top of the second page of this thread, I showed how an Abaddon can pretty much completely eliminate the need of a blasterthron - ever. Nerfing laser tracking would greatly mitigate by lowering the amount of damage that they can realistically do at close range. Thus, lasers stop impinging upon blaster territory.
-Liang
This is not a reply to you Liang, because you smart enough to see the whole picture here. So this reply are to stinger7 / Murina.
See what i mean now stinger7?.
If you don't see this, your not a PVPer.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.26 17:14:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Grez
Hell, no ship really hits anything orbiting them real close at decent speeds. Same goes for all races. What on earth makes Gal so special as to negate the effect all other races are forced to live with?
Because they don't (and can't) live anywhere else. All the damage they do is at close range. Also, you might remember this little thing called a "Nano Nerf" and a more recent "Agility Nerf" that slowed things down again and again? Why should lasers have tracking geared towards killing things going 5km/s at 24km when nothing actually goes that fast anymore? Why should lasers be able to overtake blasters in raw DPS well inside web range?
Simple answer: they shouldn't. It's a different game from when lasers got the tracking boost, and it's one where that boost is not necessary anymore.
Quote:
Perhaps the answer is to lower the tracking penalty on T2 blaster ammo by a small amount.
So with regards to T2 blaster ammo:
- Void is utterly trash and nobody really uses it. The problems at close range evince themselves with CN AM - which doesn't have a tracking penalty.
- Null is interesting because if you find yourself using null with any regularity at all, you would be much, much, much better off in a laser ship.
There's no good reason for lasers to so completely dominate all ranges of combat (and make no mistake - they do).
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
bubbly bird
|
Posted - 2009.05.26 17:49:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: stinger7
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
While I don't disagree with your analysis of NightmareX, I will point out that on the top of the second page of this thread, I showed how an Abaddon can pretty much completely eliminate the need of a blasterthron - ever. Nerfing laser tracking would greatly mitigate by lowering the amount of damage that they can realistically do at close range. Thus, lasers stop impinging upon blaster territory.
-Liang
While this may seem like a reasonable idea on paper the fact is that it is rather pointless due to the available pvp for BS.
Nerfing laser tracking would do nothing to lower the DPS from lasers anywhere apart from on a EFT graph because the only pvp available for BS is gang pvp and gang PVP = multiple webs and that makes making tracking irrelavant.
After all if the tracking on rails is good enough for close range RR BS gang combat just how bad do you intend to nerf the tracking of lasers to make them bad at close range?.
Do not get me wrong, if solo and 1 v 1 BS pvp was as prevalant on TQ as gang pvp is right now then your idea would work but the fact is that solo and 1 v 1 pvp does not exist on TQ because of tracking, lock speed, ship speed and agility ect ect of BS.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.26 18:26:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Matrix Skye
Yes indeed. Missiles are the loln00b weapon system. And at the same time they need a nerf because, because, well, because... they're overpowered. Yeah. That's it. They're overpowered.
Quit moaning, I didn't say they were overpowered. I only said they were newb weapons. Quantum Rise might've brought balance back in line but it didn't change the underlying mechanics.
Making changes to missiles should be for the sake of adding complexity and tactics to a weapon that has absolutely none.
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.05.26 19:28:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 26/05/2009 19:28:24
Originally by: bubbly bird
Edited by: bubbly bird on 26/05/2009 18:18:48
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: stinger7
You give no answers and all you do is insult anybody who tells you the truth by calling them lazy pvpers and claiming that they have not adapted.
Either add facts, figures and examples of how nerfing laser tracking will help blasters in the sort of combat available to BS on TQ or please go and troll somewhere else.
While I don't disagree with your analysis of NightmareX, I will point out that on the top of the second page of this thread, I showed how an Abaddon can pretty much completely eliminate the need of a blasterthron - ever. Nerfing laser tracking would greatly mitigate by lowering the amount of damage that they can realistically do at close range. Thus, lasers stop impinging upon blaster territory.
-Liang
While this may seem like a reasonable idea on paper the fact is that it is rather pointless due to the available pvp for BS.
Nerfing laser tracking would do nothing to lower the DPS from lasers anywhere apart from on a EFT graph because the only pvp available for BS is gang pvp and gang PVP = multiple webs and that makes tracking virtually irrelavant.
After all if the tracking on rails is good enough for close range RR BS gang combat just how bad do you intend to nerf the tracking of lasers to make them bad at close range?.
Do not get me wrong, if solo and 1 v 1 BS pvp was as prevalant on TQ as gang pvp is right now then your idea would work but the fact is that solo and 1 v 1 pvp does not exist on TQ because of the tracking, lock speed, ship speed and agility ect ect ect of BS.
Wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. This is so wrong that it's shouldn't be allowed to be so wrong as you are now. Anyone knows what Liang said there is the truth.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.05.26 20:34:00 -
[228]
Edited by: bubbly bird on 26/05/2009 20:37:16
To liang..
I just did a little test with a ABADDON with 6 x pilgrim boosted tracking disruptors with tracking scripts in them hitting it giving it a tracking of 0.00258. with scorch.......a ion siege blaster cannon on a moros IN SIEGE gets 0.00203 tracking btw, just to give you a perspective.
Even with such a massive butchering of the abaddons tracking (to virtually in siege blaster dread levels) the abaddon still hits the gang webbed mega for 500-700 dps at 2km-5km out of the available 730 turret dps it gets with scorch fitted.
Now LIANG i know that you are a reasonably minded and fair person so i must ask how you reconcile the FACTS that i have shown here and in my post above with your thoughts and ideas that nerfing laser tracking is some how going to make laser BS worse at the kinds of close range pvp that is available to BS on TQ.
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Poisson Distribution
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Posted - 2009.05.27 02:53:00 -
[229]
The game is getting closer and closer to real balance, as each correcting swing of the pendulum brings everyone closer and closer to the mean. I think it's reasonable that Amarr have a clear gunnery advantage over other gunboats. Where I have an issue is that Amarr ships are both the most effective gunnery AND the most durability.
Reintroducing Amarr's cap vulnerability would go a long way towards redressing this balance. If Amarr boats had active tanks, rather than the current 'racial' passive resist bonus, we'd have ships that dealt high dps over a broad engagement envelope, but did so over a shorter period of time. The ubiquitous cap booster would lengthen an Amarr ship's fighting time, but its pilot would quickly have to start making decisions about when and how to divert energy to reps.
In an ideal world, Amarr ships would be glass cannons whose high and effective damage would have its greatest effect early on in an engagement, while Gallente ships would be durable little beetles who could endure a slugfest and gain an advantage over time. Minmatar ships would have either high alpha or good damage over time, while missile and drone boats would offer a consistent dps closer to their theoretical max but with low top-end damage or countermeasure vulnerability as drawbacks.
The goal of relative balance is within reach, but conceptual changes to ship types need to be made rather than just tweaks to one or two weapon classes.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.27 04:45:00 -
[230]
Originally by: bubbly bird
To liang..
I just did a little test with a ABADDON with 6 x pilgrim boosted tracking disruptors with tracking scripts in them hitting it as well as reducing my skill level in "motion prediction" to 0. This gave its pulse a tracking of 0.00207 with scorch.......a ion siege blaster cannon on a moros IN SIEGE gets 0.00203 tracking btw, just to give you a perspective.
Even with such a massive butchering of the abaddons tracking (to in siege blaster dread levels) the abaddon still hits the gang webbed mega for 500-700+ dps from around 2km-10km out of the available 730 turret dps it gets with scorch fitted.
Now LIANG i know that you are a reasonably minded and fair person so i must ask how you reconcile the FACTS that i have shown here and in my post above with your thoughts and ideas that nerfing laser tracking is some how going to make laser BS worse at the kinds of close range pvp that is available to BS on TQ.
Honestly, what you're saying is undoubtedly true - I don't doubt it in the least. However, as I've said, my beef with lasers is not that they perform too well in gang settings where range, damage, and EHP reign supreme. My beef with lasers is that they perform too well in close range combat.
Now, I know, you're saying that you just showed the Abaddon is still putting out really quite spectacular damage against a mega while being six-times bonus tracking disrupted. This obviously means that a tracking nerf wouldn't make any difference, right?
Well, not really. You (generally) shouldn't engage in close range combat in larger gang settings, and the only time blasters make any sense at all is when you don't have the advantage of a large gang. Thus, my beef with lasers performing too well in that setting makes perfect sense (heh, to me).
That said, you have a perfectly legitimate observation: lasers put out alot of raw (and frequently unresisted given the "recent" influx of shield tanking) damage. Maybe the right answer is simply to lower tracking (a bit) to help with smaller craft, and to outright lower laser damage.
However, I don't think there's any really easy answers that won't make the Amarrians (old and new) stand up and proclaim how being underpowered for years should mean they have the right to be overpowered for years. I don't think this is something that can really be addressed by CCP without making lasers suck in small gangs. I'm training lasers.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Chi Quan
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.05.27 10:59:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: bubbly bird
...
...
and this brings us back to the thought that, while tracking adjustments might patch the problem, ultimately only a thorough rework of the sig-resolution/tracking/falloff mechanics will really fix the problem.
DrEyoG i believe this mathematic curve-fitting-problem falls into your jurisdiction? (and besides, what happened to the quarterly reports?)
----
Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.05.27 11:49:00 -
[232]
Edited by: bubbly bird on 27/05/2009 11:53:53
Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: bubbly bird
...
...
and this brings us back to the thought that, while tracking adjustments might patch the problem, ultimately only a thorough rework of the sig-resolution/tracking/falloff mechanics will really fix the problem.
I agree that the entire tracking mechanic/code needs to be reworked, and im still sceptical about nerfing tracking making a differance as in the example i used the mega in question i used as a target ship had only between 2-4 of webs on it and in my experiance on TQ i have never been in a BS gang that had so few ships that it had less than 3 or so webs (since the nano domi/phoon ect age anyway) and normally a BS gang is way into double figures of ships and webs nowadays.
Also as you know EFT gives the target ship perfect and totally steady transversal speed and thats a thing unachieveable in reality on TQ.
I feel this issue is way to complicated to be fixed by a simple tracking nerf because of the availability of pvp that BS have been limited to over the last few years.
This is not a slight against liang or her idea as at least she and some others recognise the problem and clearly admit its more complicated than it seems, but i also feel that adding an attempted "tracking nerf patch" in the vague hopes it will make a slight differance may (and probably will knowing CCP) considerably delay a true fix from being implemented within a reasonable time frame.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:03:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
However, I don't think there's any really easy answers that won't make the Amarrians (old and new) stand up and proclaim how being underpowered for years should mean they have the right to be overpowered for years. I don't think this is something that can really be addressed by CCP without making lasers suck in small gangs. I'm training lasers.
-Liang
Me too, and ultimately, this is what will bring balance.
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species2143
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Posted - 2009.07.27 19:56:00 -
[234]
For the love of god everybody aggree with NightmareX or else you'll soon discover how a thread can get trolled to death with dillusional ranting and alt posting....
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species2143
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Posted - 2009.07.27 20:01:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Electric Universe
Wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. This is so wrong that it's shouldn't be allowed to be so wrong as you are now. Anyone knows what Liang said there is the truth.
Oh hi electric, still posting with your alts to back-up your arguments? BTW what ever happened to Tyrkisk Peber? Did you send her back to WOW?
and no I'm not going to bother reading your posts again, been there done it b4.
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Blonda Mea
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.07.28 17:17:00 -
[236]
For the love of god!!!! give it up.
ALL of eve knows the list of broke goes like this
1 Missiles
2 Projectiles and Minmatar ships
3 Regions and Sov warfare
4 Ewar
5 Bounty system
6 Amarr tracking nerf
7 Your damn high damage Blasters.
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Beardponderer
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2009.07.29 09:37:00 -
[237]
To be honest, they should just bring back Blaze and Desolate making the resistance arguement useless. Then again that would **** the advantage minmatar and caldari get of choosing damage types.
Also, hai nmx! You should really stop trying to get them to see your point of view. Mindless arguements ftl 
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Bob Mc
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.07.29 14:03:00 -
[238]
Give amarr bs more mids and you can have your blaster dmg buff. Just sayin'.
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Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.08.01 04:01:00 -
[239]
fire in the hole!
sorry, couldn't resist.
----
Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.08.01 06:18:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Bob Mc
Give amarr bs more mids and you can have your blaster dmg buff. Just sayin'.
If the Geddon had 4x mids and the Abaddon 5, I'd never get out of them. I'd never fly an Astarte again if the Abso had 4x mids. I'd fly a Zealot religiously (lol, pun) if it had 4 mids.
I'd fly a Legion all the time if it had enough mids... oh wait, it does! And I do! How about that?
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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