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Can a new pilot compete with vets? The BeliEvE Project.

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Armon Deacon Amarr Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:38:00 - [1] I'd love to start eve, unfortunately its to late for new players. I tried eve, but there is no way for me to compete. No matter what you do, you will never be able to compete with veterans. You simply cant catch up. These are just a few of the comments I saw over at MMORPG.com in reference to eve, and Im sure like myself most of you have friends or family that have said similar comments. I always said to my friends that it wasnt true but it was always a argument, something that couldnt exactly be proven... till now. Project BeliEvE is the direct response to my brother saying "Prove it" when I told him a new toon could have a chance in EvE. The project will track my progress on a completely new character with no outside funding through pvp. So far, its off to an interesting start. Check it out ---------------------sig------------------ EvE BeliEvE project. Can a new player compete in EvE?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:43:00 - [2] Life happens quicker than you'd believe... Tell your brother he's envying the seniors at the retirement home.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:45:00 - [3] if it's so hopeless for new pilots it does seem odd so many people are starting them. remember you can only get so good at anything in the game and it doesn't take forever to get that good. you'll not match the breadth of skills an older player has but you can certainly match the depth in the areas you care about.
Aidan King Caldari Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:45:00 - [4] I look at it this way. You have to Specialize from the start. Interceptors for example. There are only so many points/skills you can allocate towards flying an interceptor. You may only have 10m skill points .. but if they are all focused on one task ... then your the same as the guy with 60m skill points ( In that particular ship ). Sure its going to take a few months to get there. But that is the same in all MMORPG. You still have to level up or grind the gear before you can compete.
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:47:00 - [5] See: Goonswarm ______________________________________________
Darkerz Reloaded Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:52:00 - [6] BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Zzzyxas	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Darkerz Reloaded BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH try Training Reading Lvl 1 Plz, he is saying new Pilots CAN compete.
Darkerz Reloaded Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Zzzyxas Originally by: Darkerz Reloaded BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH try Training Reading Lvl 1 Plz, he is saying new Pilots CAN compete. It takes a while ok, im a new player and i cant catch up with the vets who have reading lvl 5
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:59:00 - [9] Hey I am a vet and apparently I only got reading up to about lvl 3 since it took me reading it twice before I got it I will be interested to see what you find, also @ OP for guys like me maybe you should put quotes around those first few comments to help us out... i feel so dumb
Full Impact Universal-Corp Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Armon Deacon I'd love to start eve, unfortunately its to late for new players. I tried eve, but there is no way for me to compete. No matter what you do, you will never be able to compete with veterans. You simply cant catch up. These are just a few of the comments I saw over at MMORPG.com in reference to eve, and Im sure like myself most of you have friends or family that have said similar comments. I always said to my friends that it wasnt true but it was always a argument, something that couldnt exactly be proven... till now. Project BeliEvE is the direct response to my brother saying "Prove it" when I told him a new toon could have a chance in EvE. The project will track my progress on a completely new character with no outside funding through pvp. So far, its off to an interesting start. Check it out Interesting project, but unless you can wipe all the knowledge you have about game mechanics, ingame politics, etc, then you already have a huge advantage over a new player. A fairer way to do the project would be to fund your brothers game time through plex and then process the results.
skeljita	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:02:00 - [11] If you are that concerned with being behind in skill points, take your character, make a couple billion, buy a character with more skill points.
Armon Deacon Amarr Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:03:00 - [12] Edited by: Armon Deacon on 20/05/2009 18:06:39 Edited by: Armon Deacon on 20/05/2009 18:05:44 Originally by: skeljita If you are that concerned with being behind in skill points, take your character, make a couple billion, buy a character with more skill points. Read the post please Originally by: Full Impact Interesting project, but unless you can wipe all the knowledge you have about game mechanics, ingame politics, etc, then you already have a huge advantage over a new player. A fairer way to do the project would be to fund your brothers game time through plex and then process the results. I have very little pvp exp at all, and in the 5 years I have had a eve account, I have 10 months game time, and none of that was consecutive. So, while I have a slight edge, its not huge. I also started a new race, which I never played and have little knowledge off, lasers are rather new to me. But, this experiment is to prove a new character can do it, I am more than willing to give my info to friends and family who are struggling due to lack of knowledge, this is about possibilities with them Edited original post for those who only read the first 4 lines before becoming enraged =) ---------------------sig------------------ EvE BeliEvE project. Can a new player compete in EvE?
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Armon Deacon Edited original post for those who only read the first 4 lines before becoming enraged =)
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:14:00 - [14] The correct answer is: Yes and No. When I started some four years ago I read the exact same statement, "the skill gap can never be closed!" And it is true in a way, the older player will always have more skill points than the newer, but the number of skills affecting any one occupation is finite so it is perfectly plausible to match anyone in any given field. What this means is that a new player can be just as good as an old geezer in a specific field (frigate/cruiser combat for instance). This actually works out well since the general consensus is to start small (frigates), to learn the ropes as it were, while skills increase enough to make cruisers and later battlecruisers/BS viable. This game of ours really gets good when two equally skilled pilots duke it out. Fights like that are often decided by the players (as opposed to the characters) understanding of the game and tactics used. One might say that the new players got a leg up with Quantum Rise. Frigates are now far more capable of killing cruisers and larger by orbiting under the guns of a victim/client, making the "Time to Pwn!" shorter.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Full Impact Interesting project, but unless you can wipe all the knowledge you have about game mechanics, ingame politics, etc, then you already have a huge advantage over a new player. Isn't that really the point? It shows that your ability in EVE is largely bounded by your own learning and not the skill-training mechanic. That blows the entire "you can never catch up" argument out of the water by saying you can catch up and your rate of learning will be the biggest factor in how fast. I did something similar last year where myself and a few friends started new characters and went head-first into PvP. We were successful in both making isk from the market to fund losses and scoring kills without exceeding a million skillpoints. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:32:00 - [16] I will save you a lot of time: you can. This isn't Skills Online or ISK Online or Capitals Online ... there so many paths to travel; anyone can be successful depending on how they gauge their success. Tell your brother that he's a f*cking moron and be done with it. This game is obviously not meant for everyone. Cute blog, though. Hopefully it helps inspire others who are daunted at first.
randomname4me	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Euriti See: Goonswarm See Goonswarm pod. Pod Goonswarm pod... I dont now it just hit me EVE Online: Rated RRR- For Explicit Breakfast Piercing Bullets.
Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:50:00 - [18] Edited by: Emerhyz on 20/05/2009 21:51:11 @ OP, You are comparing too many variables at once. Try a fleet of new pilots vs a fleet of vet pilots. I'm just saying, if you want to test out the sp differences, keep all variables the same. Looking at your kills, most were do to your tech 2 pilots. When it comes to pvp, you can have anyone be a point. Imagine 20 new pilots with velators. That's 20 Points and 40 drones. Again, try it again, but keep your variables the same, except the one your comparing, skill points. EDIT: @ OP's brother; Ask him to list all games where new characters CAN compete with VET's. MMORPGS ^_^ in pvp.
Tractormech Caldari Fortune's Fools	Posted - 2009.05.20 22:48:00 - [19] My level 35 dwarf paladin dies to every level 80 epic geared rogue I fight. New players just cant catch up.
Eri Chell Caldari Bellum Corpus DEEP SPACE CONSORTIUM.	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:15:00 - [20] A. You will NEVER catch up to the older players, that just a fact. B. You dont have to to enjoy eve, there a bunch of other newbs around you. C. CRY SOME MORE!!
Ticarus Hellbrandt	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:22:00 - [21] once you play for a year you get most of the basic skills and other skills to fly better ships, you become average. it is possible to catch older players, it just takes time and brainpower
Lady Karma	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Eri Chell A. You will NEVER catch up to the older players, that just a fact. B. You dont have to to enjoy eve, there a bunch of other newbs around you. C. CRY SOME MORE!! A. This is bad example. You can only be frigate 5, with small gun spec 5, so a noob in couple of months can be as good as 5 year vet in one ship class. B. It's very easy to kill older players. C. You is idiot
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:31:00 - [23] "You only reach 10mill sp once" Its all relative. A Veteran will be able to do more but that doesn't mean he can do it more effectively. Once a vet has maxed the relative skills for something, there is no other way he can become more effective without spending excess amounts of isk. And luckily, most dont bother with that anyway (though there are the few who do so regularly). More often than not, they move onto a new ship, which trains different skills that do not effect the previous one in area's other than core skills. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 ^Third Times a Charm^
k'nah Manaan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:49:00 - [24] I like it, and your blog was well written. I will be following your adventures with intrest. Good Luck
dankness420	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:54:00 - [25] ruining your plan by sending you isk
Armon Deacon Amarr Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:59:00 - [26] appreciate the isk donation, forwarding it to another toon. Ill definitely take money, just wont use it for this toon =) ---------------------sig------------------ EvE BeliEvE project. Can a new player compete in EvE?
DrSeuss Gallente Phoenix Propulsion Labs	Posted - 2009.05.21 01:44:00 - [27] No, a new player cannot (and should never) be able to compete with a player who has been in game for 5 years. However that is the problem, people need to stop playing this game with the "What I can do" mindset. This is a game for teamwork, if you cannot work with others as a group you loose. . Everyone knows the only true wisdom is on T-Shirts
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience	Posted - 2009.05.21 03:12:00 - [28] I haven't read even the OP, I just wanted to let you all know that the title made me want to listen to Bruce ****enson (from Iron Maiden) Believil track from his solo album. Thank you. I tried to type what I heard from the lyrics but it would have been ridiculous. EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.05.21 03:20:00 - [29] A new player who has half a brain will realize that they can catch up to a veteran player in very little time. Consider: Skill progression from one level to the next is exponential. For the most basic skills, you can train level I in 15 minutes to 45 minutes. Level II is seldom more than a few hours to half a day. Level III a couple days to a week, level IV just over a week maybe a month at the highest levels. In the time it takes to train a skill from level III to level IV, another new player can train three to five skills to level III. When you consider the time from level IV to level V, it gets even more impressive. Level V skills can take anywhere from a couple weeks to several MONTHS, even nearly a year to train. One skill, so demanding of time, that for just that extra few percentage points of performance, that a new player could go from day one rookie to fully competent tech II 0.0 PVP raider. Diminishing returns, children, diminishing returns. Veteran skillpoint totals may look impressive on the surface, but just beneath, its a VERY different picture. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2009.05.21 03:47:00 - [30] New player here. Obviously there is no question as to whether or not a new player can eventually compete in terms of any one narrow career path. Some have mentioned frigates as an example, saying correctly that a five year vet and a few month old noob might well be relatively equal in terms of their frigate skill. This is nice but completely misses the point. The noob in his tech 1 frigate fitted with tech 1 mods is not facing vets in tech 1 frigates and mods. He is facing off against vets in tech 2 heavy assault ships and battlecruisers and battleships, and while he knows intellectually that he might EVENTUALLY match that vets skills in those ships as well, by the time he does (perhaps a year or two or three down the line) those same vets might well be flying tech 4 ships. And until he does match them he doesn't have a hope in hell of killing them. The game is coded this way. New players like myself apparently have only a few choices. We can: 1. Hide in high sec and not actually play the game. 2. Go to low sec and spend those "training" months or years playing rabbit -- running the second you see anyone, and knowing that the only people you can possibly hurt are people even newer than you who happened to accidently wander your way. 3. Join a PvP corp if they will let you. Instead of running and hiding you get the "honor" of playing corp mascot, towelboy, and fluffer. You can "tackle" the enemy and perhaps hold him long enough for your buddies to get the kill. You'll die of course, but as a noob that's your right and proper place -- dying so that your betters might score a victory. So yes, technically a new player can compete in some mythical once in a blue moon way, and perhaps relatively quickly, but in practical terms the entrance curve for this game isn't a curve at all, it's a straight up vertical climb. The question is: does this sound FUN. And the answer, apparently for a lot of folks, is no.
Flamewave Crimson Moon Society	Posted - 2009.05.21 04:08:00 - [31] Knowledge of the game is more valuable than skillpoints. Older pilots can fly more ships, but there's a cap to how well each ship can be improved through skillpoints. Additionally, a lot can be said for tactics and ship selection in your gang. The fault of a lot of new players is to not think about what ships they can train to make a difference in combat; a five month old e-war pilot can make all the difference in a small skirmish. Eve isn't about "catching up." You may start at a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't cobble together every advantage you can find. They all add up. __________
Armon Deacon Amarr Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.21 04:22:00 - [32] Originally by: OT Smithers 3. Join a PvP corp if they will let you. Instead of running and hiding you get the "honor" of playing corp mascot, towelboy, and fluffer. You can "tackle" the enemy and perhaps hold him long enough for your buddies to get the kill. You'll die of course, but as a noob that's your right and proper place -- dying so that your betters might score a victory. So yes, technically a new player can compete in some mythical once in a blue moon way, and perhaps relatively quickly, but in practical terms the entrance curve for this game isn't a curve at all, it's a straight up vertical climb. The question is: does this sound FUN. And the answer, apparently for a lot of folks, is no. I have to disagree with #3, yes you have a higher chance of death, but I have done fairly well as a "Fluffer" as you call it, had a lot of fun, and only died once. ---------------------sig------------------ EvE BeliEvE project. Can a new player compete in EvE?
OT Smithers	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Armon Deacon Originally by: OT Smithers 3. Join a PvP corp if they will let you. Instead of running and hiding you get the "honor" of playing corp mascot, towelboy, and fluffer. You can "tackle" the enemy and perhaps hold him long enough for your buddies to get the kill. You'll die of course, but as a noob that's your right and proper place -- dying so that your betters might score a victory. So yes, technically a new player can compete in some mythical once in a blue moon way, and perhaps relatively quickly, but in practical terms the entrance curve for this game isn't a curve at all, it's a straight up vertical climb. The question is: does this sound FUN. And the answer, apparently for a lot of folks, is no. I have to disagree with #3, yes you have a higher chance of death, but I have done fairly well as a "Fluffer" as you call it, had a lot of fun, and only died once. I'm having fun too but I'm not sure how relevant that is to this topic. :)
OT Smithers	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Flamewave Knowledge of the game is more valuable than skillpoints. Older pilots can fly more ships, but there's a cap to how well each ship can be improved through skillpoints. Additionally, a lot can be said for tactics and ship selection in your gang. The fault of a lot of new players is to not think about what ships they can train to make a difference in combat; a five month old e-war pilot can make all the difference in a small skirmish. Eve isn't about "catching up." You may start at a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't cobble together every advantage you can find. They all add up. As an example of how competetive new players can be you are citing a five-month old character's ability to contribute during a small skirmish...
Epegi Givo Amarr Moral Equivalent Of War	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:18:00 - [35] there was a player twice my age in a sacri and me in a zealot, I force him to run away (would have caught him except he had more speed mods than me so I couldn't keep up.) So, newer players can still compete. Also, to my embarrassment, I have had my harby beaten by a drake half my age. ------------------------------------- My other alt is a Ferrari
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:43:00 - [36] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 21/05/2009 05:44:58 I don't see why people think like this, new players have it so good these days. When I started this char in early 2007, I picked my char according to attributes, and got a load of crappy skills I didn't even want. I start with 800,000 sp's, but out of that around 500,000 have never been one bit of use to me and still worthlessly clutter my skill sheet. Even then, people still needed like 40 million sp's to join alliances like BOB but the game was interesting stuff to do and to keep out of the way of people who would **** you easil.y New players these days get to fully customise their characters at double skill training time to 1.6 million skillpoints and get one free attribute remap straight off if I'm not mistaken, how awesome is that? I've recently only just gone back to polishing off some of my learning skills, that's how bored I got of training them. I've seen people around 4 months old in fully tech 2 Abaddons so someone who really knows what they want can probably get there real fast.
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:54:00 - [37] Its perfectly understandable when total newbs think skillpoints are somehow important, because in other games they are. But anyone playing for more than a week should know better. What continues to amaze me is those that don't, and continue to spout complete drivel. Cause the real issue causing these people much butt hurting isn't about being competitive. They simply define endgame/victory as "having the most _____" and place whatever trivial measurement they can find. Some people think having a ton of isk is important, some think its skillpoints, and others think its kills. The game, on the other hand, is about as open to new competition as it could possibly be. You know this because two mediocre characters using standard equipment can absolutely decimate a maxed out character with top officer gear in equivalent ship classes. Ultimately, fittings and tactics are several magnitudes more important than skills.
Aldee Federated Holdings	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:14:00 - [38] Yes it is true you will never catch up... so if everyone that has joined eve in the last 4 yrs can leave maybe we can get the server down to a level where it never lags...... I mean why stay around and suffer with the lag when you will never be able to compete with vets anyway?
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Ehranavaar if it's so hopeless for new pilots it does seem odd so many people are starting them. remember you can only get so good at anything in the game and it doesn't take forever to get that good. you'll not match the breadth of skills an older player has but you can certainly match the depth in the areas you care about. This, tbvh. _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.05.21 09:10:00 - [40] This is a good idea and your blog was a decent read. It is shame that the persistent skill training mechanic has what looks like a major fault to newer players. Anyone with any experience can tell you that sp doesn't matter once you get the basics up and that even a the lowest sp player can have a role. Kazang
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:37:00 - [41] new player can't compete with vets. all things equal, new player is at disadvantage. and the older game gets, this will only get more pronounced. shrug it's EVE. nobody said it has to be fair.
Pokefan Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:39:00 - [42] Meh if you specialize you can become pretty good by 10 mil SP which does not take that long.
Vain Eldritch	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:40:00 - [43] Edited by: Vain Eldritch on 21/05/2009 10:45:00 Originally by: DrSeuss No, a new player cannot (and should never) be able to compete with a player who has been in game for 5 years. However that is the problem, people need to stop playing this game with the "What I can do" mindset. This is a game for teamwork, if you cannot work with others as a group you loose. I respectfully disagree with everything in your post. 1. Taking ship combat as an example, in the case that a certain ship has a limited number of skills that provide bonuses for flying that ship type, then when two characters have all of those skills then (assuming equal ability) we have an even playing field - regardless of their respective time in game. Therefore, a newer player can indeed "compete" with a 2003 vet. 2. The notion that a new player "should never" be able to compete with a veteran is not sustainable. Not only is such a terrible idea from a gameplay standpoint, but would be commercially nonesensical for CCP. 3. The game is only a game of "team work" if that is what you want it to be. Eve is wonderful because it's an open-ended sandbox and people can play as they want to play. Teaming up with players, joining corporations and fleets are just play options - do or do not, as you like. There is no need for people to eschew the "what I can do", as such a mind set leads to a playstyle in itself that is no less valid than any other. You see, it's really a question of what you want out of the game. I am very new to Eve, but even I can see that it is possible for new players to compete. The advantage a 2003 day 1 vet has over a new player is that they probably have every skill in the game and a good number of them to level 5. Does this alone make them better pilots than a player with only one year? It depends - it depends on which aspect of the game you choose to consider. A new character can never have as many skill points as an older character, will never have the same diverse range of skills, but can go just as deep in a given area in a reasonable time and can certainly "compete". All the above doesn't even consider player ability, tactical talent, goals, aims, desires, etc.
Draeca Tharri and Co.	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:43:00 - [44] New players can't catch up but why should they? 2+ years and still happily flying t1 frigs and cruisers, because t2 is terribly overpriced and overrated.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Jagga Spikes new player can't compete with vets. all things equal, new player is at disadvantage. and the older game gets, this will only get more pronounced. shrug it's EVE. nobody said it has to be fair. Vet trains for an Assault frigate, maxes all skills, moves on. All SP gained afterwords is split into other things and has no effectiveness to his AF. Noob trains AF skills, gets them to level 4/5, noob is competitive with said vet in fighting with AF's. Its simplified, but thats how it works. I know damn straight that my 47mill SP does not make me better in a HAC than a 10mill SP specialised noob. And thats only 7-8 months of training for one of the most popular combat ships around. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 ^Third Times a Charm^
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Can't Decide Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:50:00 - [46] im sorry op, but something very similar has already been done :)
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 12:39:00 - [47] Originally by: OT Smithers stuff Quote: Im going to have to disagree with just about everything you wrote here. As a way of an example Im going to tell you a story. It involves the first major fleet-battle that we had down South involving the majority of the NC and Goonswarm and PL Vs BOB and pets. I was newly arrived in the South and found myself in a joint fleet with Goonswarm. We were commenting on TS about the fleet composition and generally making jokes about having never seen so many rifters in a 0.0 fleet op and stuff. Anyway we eventually engaged the enemy with slightly less in fleet than they had (although we shipped in reinforcements faster than they did). A massive fleet battle occured that turned into one of the defining battles of the Delve campaign. Details here in case you are interested: http://www.northern-coalition.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=355528 During this battle I ended up target calling for a large portion of the fight, as it lasted a few hours and our FC got tired :) We were primarying BS after BS in the enemy fleet and they were doing the same to us. The difference between us was that we had superior support. That was it. Whenever I called a target I could be assured that a mass of T1 frigs were swarming that battleship and making sure it didnt get a chance to warp out. Likewise if the enemy sent a dictor our way, chances are it wasnt getting out alive, with all the friendly small support darting around near our main BS blob. So we ended up winning the support battle. Due to this, our BS could warp off when primaried while the enemy BS could not. Which is probably the main reason we also went on to win the battleship fight. It certainly opened my eyes to the usefulness of a noob in a T1 tackle frig. They can be useful in even the biggest fleet-fights in 0.0. I certainly wont be turning away any Goons in rifters :) Anyway sorry for the history lesson but it does illustrate the point. I was continually thankful in that fight that there were noobs in rifters listening to TS and engaging primary targets. While I do not suggest you try and join Goonswarm (you will be scammed to within an inch of your life) there are certainly oppertunities for noobs to shine in even the highest levels of 0.0 Eve fleet action. It just takes research, commitment, and application of knowledge. The biggest asset that any Eve player has will always be his own brain. For example, I have recently considered the fact that it is probably better to have a noob in a cov-ops or ceptor that really understands game mechanics and is committed to the alliance, and always x's up for gangs, rather than a mothership pilot who doesnt know what he is doing.
Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Zackalwe Originally by: OT Smithers stuff Quote: Im going to have to disagree with just about everything you wrote here. As a way of an example Im going to tell you a story. It involves the first major fleet-battle that we had down South involving the majority of the NC and Goonswarm and PL Vs BOB and pets. I was newly arrived in the South and found myself in a joint fleet with Goonswarm. We were commenting on TS about the fleet composition and generally making jokes about having never seen so many rifters in a 0.0 fleet op and stuff. Anyway we eventually engaged the enemy with slightly less in fleet than they had (although we shipped in reinforcements faster than they did). A massive fleet battle occured that turned into one of the defining battles of the Delve campaign. Details here in case you are interested: http://www.northern-coalition.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=355528 During this battle I ended up target calling for a large portion of the fight, as it lasted a few hours and our FC got tired :) We were primarying BS after BS in the enemy fleet and they were doing the same to us. The difference between us was that we had superior support. That was it. Whenever I called a target I could be assured that a mass of T1 frigs were swarming that battleship and making sure it didnt get a chance to warp out. Likewise if the enemy sent a dictor our way, chances are it wasnt getting out alive, with all the friendly small support darting around near our main BS blob. So we ended up winning the support battle. Due to this, our BS could warp off when primaried while the enemy BS could not. Which is probably the main reason we also went on to win the battleship fight. It certainly opened my eyes to the usefulness of a noob in a T1 tackle frig. They can be useful in even the biggest fleet-fights in 0.0. I certainly wont be turning away any Goons in rifters :) Anyway sorry for the history lesson but it does illustrate the point. I was continually thankful in that fight that there were noobs in rifters listening to TS and engaging primary targets. While I do not suggest you try and join Goonswarm (you will be scammed to within an inch of your life) there are certainly oppertunities for noobs to shine in even the highest levels of 0.0 Eve fleet action. It just takes research, commitment, and application of knowledge. The biggest asset that any Eve player has will always be his own brain. For example, I have recently considered the fact that it is probably better to have a noob in a cov-ops or ceptor that really understands game mechanics and is committed to the alliance, and always x's up for gangs, rather than a mothership pilot who doesnt know what he is doing. Again, you are getting the wrong idea. You're now comparing noob frigate pilots with a lack of pilots on the other team. Imagine if you would, the same story, but with VET frig pilots on your team. Would you have done better? Would the new VET pilots deal more damage? Do they have more survival abilities due to level V in everything to boost buffer tank, e.i. Shield Operation. YES. If your noob frigates were Vet frigates, you'd see a difference, sometimes not as much - people consider a specialized pilot starting eve as a noob, which doesn't make sense because since he's specialized, he's not a noob (My thoughts at least). Again people, when you compare something with another, keep all variables the same.
Reiisha Evolution KenZoku	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:36:00 - [49] I didn't realize that battleship skills affected how well you can fly an interceptor or hac. If you get what i mean here, you get how new players will always have a chance. If you don't get what i mean here, you don't get eve, and should move to an easier game for your limited intellect to understand, like pacman. "If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
BIZZAROSTORMY	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:37:00 - [50] SO it goes - pacman, then eve in terms of the complexity gradient? no inbetween?
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:45:00 - [51] Edited by: Zackalwe on 21/05/2009 13:46:50 Originally by: Emerhyz Again, you are getting the wrong idea. You're now comparing noob frigate pilots with a lack of pilots on the other team. Imagine if you would, the same story, but with VET frig pilots on your team. Would you have done better? Would the new VET pilots deal more damage? Do they have more survival abilities due to level V in everything to boost buffer tank, e.i. Shield Operation. YES. If your noob frigates were Vet frigates, you'd see a difference, sometimes not as much - people consider a specialized pilot starting eve as a noob, which doesn't make sense because since he's specialized, he's not a noob (My thoughts at least). Again people, when you compare something with another, keep all variables the same. With respect I think it is you who has the wrong idea. Of course one on one a complete noob in a tech1-fit frig Vs a 60mill skillpoint in a tech2-fit frig there is no contest. BUT in the situation in that battle, they would both be tackling enemy battleships with roughly the same effectiveness. What I am saying is there is a place for noobs in 0.0 warfare. If they work for it. A lot of people say there is not. That is the difference. As another example: In what other MMO can a person who has been playing for two weeks actually be useful in the same group as ten 5-year vets, in whatever passes for that MMOs endgame? Seriously I cant think of any. In Eve it is possible to be helpful in a T1 rifter while in a fleet of 200 T2-fit battleships. What is even more amazing about Eve is it could be possible for that T1 rifter to turn the battle and have a bigger impact than a lot of the vets.
Th0rG0d Pilots From Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:59:00 - [52] Skillpoints aside, the biggest difference between a vet and new player is understanding how the game works. Period, end of discussion. Once you understand "how to" specialize, aggro mechanics, setting your skill plan to be effective, ect. you are no longer a noob, just a younger player in skill points. For the people who jump into PvP right away, they learn (generally) those mechanics. And that applies to all mechanics of different professions. After that, it is up to the player, not the game.... Originally by: Clementina I regard recommending WoW to be a grave matter. That game somehow causes brain damage, and therefore should only be recommended to those who have brain damage already.[/qu
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:02:00 - [53] Originally by: DrSeuss No, a new player cannot (and should never) be able to compete with a player who has been in game for 5 years. However that is the problem, people need to stop playing this game with the "What I can do" mindset. This is a game for teamwork, if you cannot work with others as a group you loose. I very much agree! I mean what does the new player want? 10mil start off in skill point? you have 100% skill training and you can revamp your toon twice. I am sorry but this is not WOW too get up to level 70 fast as possible. The system that works Very well in EVE and as this guy said it's Team work. Even a gang of Frigates can be deadly to a BS pilot. Just knowing how to fit it out. My Wife has started EVE not long ago and she doesn't have a problem. Only thing you need to do is improve the training to play the game. Though my wife playing so I think it's about there anyhow. If you don't like it leave! it's simple EVE not made for everyone. Trinity Corporate Services
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:06:00 - [54] As far as SP are concerned, my alt is slowly catching up with my main because my alt sits in hi-sec with learning implants while my main is in 0.0 without learning implants. *Let My People Go*
Cpt Gobla	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:16:00 - [55] In a fair fight a new player can never stand up to a veteran. However if you go into a fair fight you're a flippin idiot. Eve is not about SP, it's not about ISK. It's about connections. The diffirence between all skills at lvl 5 versus all skills at lvl 3 is what? 1.5x damage max? 2x damage if he's flying an expensive ship? Get 2 buddies in the fight and you're dealing 3x damage. Even if they've got crappy SPs as well. Sure the vet may take 2 of you out and the last into hull before he goes down but in the meantime you lost 2 cruisers of wich you got most of the money back from insurance. He lost a HAC of wich he hardly got anything back at all. As long as the player has got decent intelligence and knows how to coordinate it's just a matter of making friends. With enough friends you can do anything in EVE from day 1. Without them you can have all the SPs you want and you still won't be able to achieve squat.
Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Reiisha I didn't realize that battleship skills affected how well you can fly an interceptor or hac. If you get what i mean here, you get how new players will always have a chance. If you don't get what i mean here, you don't get eve, and should move to an easier game for your limited intellect to understand, like pacman. You lack the ability to understand other skills. Did you know noob pilots don't get Hull Upgrades V at the start? More Armor hitpoints for a vet. Did you know noob pilots don't get Mechanic V at the start? More structure hitpoints which could let them live that last second needed to pop his target. Did you know noob pilots don't get shield Operation V at start? Regen in shields add tiny hitpoints - again, which could save him from being popped before killing the target. Then there's shield Management, more shields...and Advance spaceship Command <--- Vets love this skill, +5% to agility...which for frigates MAKES A HUGE difference. If you think BS skills help u in frigates, ur a noob. Most Vets have these skills at V.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:06:00 - [57] Originally by: Emerhyz ..Advance spaceship Command ... frigates ... uhm, i must be missing something.
Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:13:00 - [58] Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 21/05/2009 13:46:50 With respect I think it is you who has the wrong idea. Of course one on one a complete noob in a tech1-fit frig Vs a 60mill skillpoint in a tech2-fit frig there is no contest. BUT in the situation in that battle, they would both be tackling enemy battleships with roughly the same effectiveness. What I am saying is there is a place for noobs in 0.0 warfare. If they work for it. A lot of people say there is not. That is the difference. As another example: In what other MMO can a person who has been playing for two weeks actually be useful in the same group as ten 5-year vets, in whatever passes for that MMOs endgame? Seriously I cant think of any. In Eve it is possible to be helpful in a T1 rifter while in a fleet of 200 T2-fit battleships. What is even more amazing about Eve is it could be possible for that T1 rifter to turn the battle and have a bigger impact than a lot of the vets. The argument here is that noobs can COMPETE with vets, not help out vets in battle. People keep arguing that noobs can be up to par with vets, when there only supporting evidence is; I pointed a target, and let my vet friend kill'm. IF you're arguing that noobs can be helpful, I agree with you totally, but this isn't what it's about. It's a statement that the more ppl you have, the more helpful it is. Do you recall goonswarm going out in 234987238907 velators and killing battle ships? Just like you said, a T1 noob pilot will NEVER compete with a T2 Vet pilot.
Ferdio Ricotez Gallente Killer Carebears United Interstellar Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:28:00 - [59] Being a fairly new players myself, I can only say the real time training of skills has never bothered me. Even better, this is probably the best time for new players to join the game, due to the 1.6 mil SP training bonus and the skill queue, which allows you to use every single precious second of training time without having to log into the game in the middle of the night. I have nearly constantly trained since I started two months ago (with a few exceptions, the results of bad planning), and I can fly a Retriever, the second mining barge, and Battlecruisers. The whole point is the exponential nature of skill training time over levels. Training most skills up to level 5 can be considered a waste of time, since they usually don't give you a very big bonus, and other than using them as a stepping stone to get the ability to train another skill, I consider it pretty useless. I'd rather spend that month I need for a level five to train many other skills to level three. That being said, I recommend the following tactic: train many different skills so you can fend yourself in many different areas; however, only train those skills past level 3 that are in areas you want to specialize in, or you need to train other skills. ----- Gallente flying Minmatar - A Podlog
Ms Badjuju	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:04:00 - [60] Originally by: OT Smithers New player here. Obviously there is no question as to whether or not a new player can eventually compete in terms of any one narrow career path. Some have mentioned frigates as an example, saying correctly that a five year vet and a few month old noob might well be relatively equal in terms of their frigate skill. This is nice but completely misses the point. The noob in his tech 1 frigate fitted with tech 1 mods is not facing vets in tech 1 frigates and mods. He is facing off against vets in tech 2 heavy assault ships and battlecruisers and battleships, and while he knows intellectually that he might EVENTUALLY match that vets skills in those ships as well, by the time he does (perhaps a year or two or three down the line) those same vets might well be flying tech 4 ships. And until he does match them he doesn't have a hope in hell of killing them. The game is coded this way. New players like myself apparently have only a few choices. We can: 1. Hide in high sec and not actually play the game. 2. Go to low sec and spend those "training" months or years playing rabbit -- running the second you see anyone, and knowing that the only people you can possibly hurt are people even newer than you who happened to accidently wander your way. 3. Join a PvP corp if they will let you. Instead of running and hiding you get the "honor" of playing corp mascot, towelboy, and fluffer. You can "tackle" the enemy and perhaps hold him long enough for your buddies to get the kill. You'll die of course, but as a noob that's your right and proper place -- dying so that your betters might score a victory. So yes, technically a new player can compete in some mythical once in a blue moon way, and perhaps relatively quickly, but in practical terms the entrance curve for this game isn't a curve at all, it's a straight up vertical climb. The question is: does this sound FUN. And the answer, apparently for a lot of folks, is no. No offense but .....you sound like you're missing a backbone. Your post was all problem and no solution. I have played for 2 weeks. I'm broke, weak, under skilled, under strained, and under equipped. PvP beats the crap out of me, I'm out matched in every possible aspect. I'm also determined, intelligent, and inspired by cerebral challenges. I'll be carving a suitable place for me in this game in short order. Maybe I'll hire you to run some errands for me later . My husband says he intimidated by this game, and I said that's exactly why I want to play it. Communities are a liquid thing, just as new players join, old players leave. I'm willing to bet the world isn't as top heavy as you think, nor is the model as linear as you make it sound. I can't be sure from what angle you're looking at things, but from my mine I see multiple roads leading to the top.
De PewPew	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:16:00 - [61] see: Goonswarm Brand new noobs can take on the universe with enough friends :)
Southern Empire	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:35:00 - [62] Edited by: Southern Empire on 21/05/2009 17:36:59 Edited by: Southern Empire on 21/05/2009 17:35:57 Edited by: Southern Empire on 21/05/2009 17:35:29 Noob players can be awesome. My corporation specialises in taking brand new players ad giving them a taste of PvP. We literally spend billions every month supplying 100s of new players with free ships and then leading them with both veteran and training FCs into 0.0 space for pew pew. The results of some of these gangs are very surprising. With the right FC and good protocol in fleet these gangs of noobs (who arn't afraid to lose their ship cos it's not theirs) regularly hold the field when engaging much older more experienced gangs. We have had 1 week old noobs on capital killmails (including MS). SP in eve is a factor without doubt. In many instances however this can be compensated for with co-ordination and attitude. Many new people come to us from other corps with stories about veteran players telling them that they can't do certain things and thus they don't try. If you tell noobs that they can do things... the outcome is often very awesome. Attitude > SP
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Euriti See: Goonswarm Confirming. Also: Specialize. It works. Also: Water is wet. Also: Fire burns. Etc. etc. etc. /me tries to shake off sense of deja vu ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:05:00 - [64] Originally by: T*G0d Skillpoints aside, the biggest difference between a vet and new player is understanding how the game works. Period, end of discussion. Once you understand "how to" specialize, aggro mechanics, setting your skill plan to be effective, ect. you are no longer a noob, just a younger player in skill points. For the people who jump into PvP right away, they learn (generally) those mechanics. And that applies to all mechanics of different professions. After that, it is up to the player, not the game.... Exactly. I think people like creating idealized situations in their heads and then concluding that a younger player cannot take on an older one. Yes, if you take two incursus with the same fittings using the same tactics and with their characters skills distributed in the same way, staring at 0 m from each other. The character with more skill points will win. Take a similar situation put the vet in a blaster incursus mwd fit. Put your noob in a t1 fit rail incusus with an ab/scram/web combo, have then start at 10km. If the noob in the incursus knows how to handle the situation it doesn't matter if he has terrible skills and all t1 gear, he will win. Crap-fit t1 stuff kills t2 stuff all the time example. I just pulled that example because it is handy, there are better ones. Now one could look at that loss and assume that since I have more SP than the raptor pilot that I was able to make my frig so much more potent that it could down an inty. This would be seeing the wrong thing, the only reason I got that kill was because I got the raptor to chase me and drop out of warp in a position where I could scram him before he could mwd out to his orbital range. Last example I will use is when solo roaming, in the same t1 fit frig from before, I ran into two rifters. The pilots were about a month old each. Again I had then split up, not long enough as it would have it, killed one of them and they killed me. Had I not split them up I am sure they would have taken me without much problem. Link
OT Smithers	Posted - 2009.05.22 06:17:00 - [65] Originally by: Zackalwe As another example: In what other MMO can a person who has been playing for two weeks actually be useful in the same group as ten 5-year vets, in whatever passes for that MMOs endgame? Seriously I cant think of any. The difference is this: In any other MMO that I am aware of -- and that's quite a few -- a new player can look at the game system and KNOW at what point his character will be competetive. If it's a level based game he knows that when he gets to the highest level he will be, at worst, competetive with anyone else. And he knows that getting to that highest level will probably take him a few months give or take. In this very thread there are people talking about five-month old characters as if this were new.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2009.05.22 06:30:00 - [66] Edited by: OT Smithers on 22/05/2009 06:35:09 Originally by: Ms Badjuju Originally by: OT Smithers New player here. Obviously there is no question as to whether or not a new player can eventually compete in terms of any one narrow career path. Some have mentioned frigates as an example, saying correctly that a five year vet and a few month old noob might well be relatively equal in terms of their frigate skill. This is nice but completely misses the point. The noob in his tech 1 frigate fitted with tech 1 mods is not facing vets in tech 1 frigates and mods. He is facing off against vets in tech 2 heavy assault ships and battlecruisers and battleships, and while he knows intellectually that he might EVENTUALLY match that vets skills in those ships as well, by the time he does (perhaps a year or two or three down the line) those same vets might well be flying tech 4 ships. And until he does match them he doesn't have a hope in hell of killing them. The game is coded this way. New players like myself apparently have only a few choices. We can: 1. Hide in high sec and not actually play the game. 2. Go to low sec and spend those "training" months or years playing rabbit -- running the second you see anyone, and knowing that the only people you can possibly hurt are people even newer than you who happened to accidently wander your way. 3. Join a PvP corp if they will let you. Instead of running and hiding you get the "honor" of playing corp mascot, towelboy, and fluffer. You can "tackle" the enemy and perhaps hold him long enough for your buddies to get the kill. You'll die of course, but as a noob that's your right and proper place -- dying so that your betters might score a victory. So yes, technically a new player can compete in some mythical once in a blue moon way, and perhaps relatively quickly, but in practical terms the entrance curve for this game isn't a curve at all, it's a straight up vertical climb. The question is: does this sound FUN. And the answer, apparently for a lot of folks, is no. No offense but .....you sound like you're missing a backbone. Your post was all problem and no solution. I have played for 2 weeks. I'm broke, weak, under skilled, under strained, and under equipped. PvP beats the crap out of me, I'm out matched in every possible aspect. I'm also determined, intelligent, and inspired by cerebral challenges. I'll be carving a suitable place for me in this game in short order. Maybe I'll hire you to run some errands for me later . My husband says he intimidated by this game, and I said that's exactly why I want to play it. Communities are a liquid thing, just as new players join, old players leave. I'm willing to bet the world isn't as top heavy as you think, nor is the model as linear as you make it sound. I can't be sure from what angle you're looking at things, but from my mine I see multiple roads leading to the top. So did I at two weeks. That was before I started playing in low sec. Here's the critical thing you are missing: maxing your frigate skills (which would take months by the way,. not weeks) will not make you competetive with a vet unless he deliberately elects to gimp himself by also flying a T1 frigate. He won't though. In any case I didn't attempt to suggest a solution because I don't think that there is one. The game is what it is.
Nooma K'Larr Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.22 06:45:00 - [67] No, a new pilot can not compete with vets for the simple reason that you do not have the sufficient skills to use superior weapons and ships. EVE is time based. So the longer you are at it, the better you will be because of the skills. But no manner of grinding can improve your chances with vets.....just skill studying. EVE is an investment in Time. Nothing more.
Armon Deacon Amarr Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.05.24 08:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Nooma K'Larr No, a new pilot can not compete with vets for the simple reason that you do not have the sufficient skills to use superior weapons and ships. A brand new toon vs a 5 year toon, yes I agree. A six month toon and a 5 year toon, I disagree. As has been stated previously, its about specialization and non linear growth. In most games you grow from Point A to point Z, eventually reaching the pinnacle of strength. Eve is about horizontal growth, with diminishing linear growth. More or less as you age, you expand outwards while reaching a glass ceiling. So yes, a 5 year vet will have more points than I, but if I specialize I can compete in an area. Also, folks are saying that running in a group of other players isnt competing... well sure in a 1 on 1 ratio its not competing, however, I think most people here who pvp will agree that eve is not about 1 on 1, and that just getting a bloody 1 on 1 is a rare thing, hell just getting equal numbers is rare. If Im in a gang, and I am actively pvping other people looking to pvp and not just fragging miners and day old newbs pveing then I think Im on the field fighting and being competitive with others. This is of course my opinion, and others will disagree... but hell thats kind of the beauty of the game. Bob thinks pvp and competition is only real when 500 of his alliance mates go and blow up Teds alliances PoS. Andrew thinks pvp is only when 2 folks fly the same class of ship and fight to the death. No matter what people are going to have their own definitions of pvp and of competing, Im just tossing out my version. ---------------------sig------------------ EvE BeliEvE project. Can a new player compete in EvE?
Maxwell Terallis	Posted - 2009.05.25 01:49:00 - [69] Really, the topic of this thread should be: "Can a new pilot compete with vets in combat PvP?" Most everyone here is comparing new pilots fighting vet pilots. I have seen posts where people say the only thing for a new pilot to do is get swallowed by a big PvP corporation, go die in lowsec, or cower in fear in high sec. There is more to EVE than just combat PvP. A new player with about 2 weeks of training can scan down and salvage mission runner wrecks and make lots of isk. A new player with about 2 weeks of training can learn the market system and start trading their way to a fortune. Once this starts happening, the new player has isk to buy other skills which will also let them get into PvP if they wish, or go in yet more other directions. If someone looks at EVE and all they see is combat PvP, they're not seeing the entire game.

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