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Whats more fail? Black Ops or T3?

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Trader Jjenna	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Trader Jjenna on 21/05/2009 06:10:37 Black Ops - still generally overpriced with little to justify the additional cost. T3 - does not make any sense. They were supposed to be about the same price as a command ship but the added sting of losing one would come from skill loss. Heak even retraining a rank 1 skill at level IV probably takes 3-4 days depending on attributes. Forget level V. Yet the prices are totally whack. Two major content injections not being adequately used. You decide which is more fail.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:07:00 - [2] Marauders are fine. Well, two of them at least, the Golem and Paladin are absurdly effective at missioning, which is what they were meant to do. -----------
Trader Jjenna	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:10:00 - [3] Sorry I meant black ops BS. True Marauders are only half fail!
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:11:00 - [4] Marauders might actually be good in blobs where the enemy FC might be too distracted to notice your ship is T2 when calling primaries. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:43:00 - [5] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Marauders might actually be good in blobs where the enemy FC might be too distracted to notice your ship is T2 when calling primaries. That would be a huge fleet O_o surely someone would notice that you're flying a t2 BS as soon as they target you? Didn't black ops get a boost in the form of being able to covert cyno into cynojammed systems? Sure, they're still way overpriced and not very useful, but that alone could be...useful.
314159265	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:53:00 - [6] Failed. If they were to be the same price as commandships CPP would have made it easier to build them. And, as they're better then commandships, they should be more expensive. And blackops.. I'm not sure how to use them but I know that there's people that do and I believe them when they're saying black ops's are good. Oh, and why are marauders half broken?
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:55:00 - [7] Well its not T3 for a start the price are still coming down yes slow but they are coming down if you and others would stop whining and check the price you might see that in a month or two they will be fairly cheap. Black ops are usefull abit overpriced but there not that bad but not a fail more a lack of insight when they was made. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Warrio GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.21 06:55:00 - [8] Black Ops. The BOps are currently (though not as much as before) terrible for the reasons that have been mentioned time and time again. T3 while I agree that it's really really bad is at least doing what it's meant to be doing and the cost is fine. CCP has allowed plenty of avenues for making ISK, there's no excuse for being broke. sXe
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.21 07:48:00 - [9] Except a Dev stated that they want them at 300m isk or so. They are not now and they will never get there at current drop rates. Therefore, fail.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.21 07:53:00 - [10] Quote: Heak even retraining a rank 1 skill at level IV probably takes 3-4 days depending on attributes. Forget level V. You need 3-4 days to train a rank 1 skill from lvl 3 to lvl 4
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.21 08:13:00 - [11] Quote: Two major content injections not being adequately used. You decide which is more fail. Factional warfare would be your 3rd of 2 fail content injections. They seem more bent at crunching new content regardless if it works or not than fixing what's already in place.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:47:00 - [12] T3 are pretty much fail, even if they change the drop rate to bring the hulls down to 200-300mil, the reverse engineering mechanics for subsystems ensures they will remain 1.5-2bil for the ships (that is, hull + the non-fail subsystems) Black Ops effectiveness vs price is balanced at about 600-650mil for the hull. They were 500mil before CCP nerfed the ghost ferrogel, and T2 BS prices are hardest hit by the increase in T2 production costs. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Rajere T3 are pretty much fail, even if they change the drop rate to bring the hulls down to 200-300mil, the reverse engineering mechanics for subsystems ensures they will remain 1.5-2bil for the ships (that is, hull + the non-fail subsystems) Black Ops effectiveness vs price is balanced at about 600-650mil for the hull. They were 500mil before CCP nerfed the ghost ferrogel, and T2 BS prices are hardest hit by the increase in T2 production costs. creation of t3 and wormholes and such is probably the only aspect of eve i know too little about, could anyone explain why even if drop rates were increased they would stay that expensive due to the reverse engineering mechanics? (I have no clue about the entire production aspect of it, i know everything about t1 and t2 though if that matters for explaining it to me) and i personally think t3 rocks, only should cost less, and that black ops are not cost effective. -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Evee Amine Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:25:00 - [14] Originally by: adriaans Originally by: Rajere T3 are pretty much fail, even if they change the drop rate to bring the hulls down to 200-300mil, the reverse engineering mechanics for subsystems ensures they will remain 1.5-2bil for the ships (that is, hull + the non-fail subsystems) Black Ops effectiveness vs price is balanced at about 600-650mil for the hull. They were 500mil before CCP nerfed the ghost ferrogel, and T2 BS prices are hardest hit by the increase in T2 production costs. creation of t3 and wormholes and such is probably the only aspect of eve i know too little about, could anyone explain why even if drop rates were increased they would stay that expensive due to the reverse engineering mechanics? (I have no clue about the entire production aspect of it, i know everything about t1 and t2 though if that matters for explaining it to me) and i personally think t3 rocks, only should cost less, and that black ops are not cost effective. The problem with assuming increasing drop rates will decrease price is that you're assuming a drop increase will increase supply, which in this case isn't true. due to pain in the assness of running sleepers people expect to make loads of ISK. If you increase drop rates, the amount of ISK you can make in w-space will decrease due to increased supply of sleeper loot, and people will leave w-space as its no longer worth their time. people will keep leaving, and thus decreasing supply and increasing price, until you have pretty much the same volume on the market as we do now, selling for the same prices. Changing drop rates can't dictate how much sleeper loot is on the market since people can just not fight sleepers. The only thing it will change is how many people can be actively running wormholes and making a good amount of isk off it. Of course this is assuming the people running wormholes have a clue, and seeing how freaking hard the higher level wormholes where drops are actually worth it are, I think its a safe assumption to make.
Scientific Method	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Evee Amine The problem with assuming increasing drop rates will decrease price is that you're assuming a drop increase will increase supply, which in this case isn't true. If they drop twice as much, supply will increase if people hunt as much, and there will be twice as many items on the market. Assuming this causes the price per item to halve, ISK per run stays the same, and the price drops. The assumption of price halving depends on how people react to the increased supply and reduced price, and frankly, can't credibly be called at this point. Quote: due to pain in the assness of running sleepers people expect to make loads of ISK. If you increase drop rates, the amount of ISK you can make in w-space will decrease due to increased supply of sleeper loot Dependent on the price elasticity of sleeper loot, which is unknown. Assuming the increased drop rate doesn't bring in more sleeper hunters, the same people have all the sleeper loot, they just have twice as much as before, and the same control over price as they currently do. I'm mystified as to why you make the assumption that increasing supply will cause a price crash, rather than a proportionate decrease.
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:21:00 - [16] So, if you can't afford it, it's fail?
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:43:00 - [17] T3 ships do what they do better than any other ship in the game. Mainly because they have zero competition. Precisely none. They fit the Fun and Versatile Niche. Black Ops do nothing that warrants the cost and the drawbacks, great concept just like Titans were...horribly implemented just like Titans are. So I'd call them the bigger failure. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Trader Jjenna Heak even retraining a rank 1 skill at level IV probably takes 3-4 days depending on attributes. Forget level V. What are your attributes at, exactly? 4 willpower, 4 perception, 4 intelligence, 4 memory and 12 charisma with no learning skills trained? ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:26:00 - [19] I've been pretty disappointed by a lot of things CCP have implemented recently(relative term). heat LvL 5 missions Black Ops Tech 3 Factional Warfare Abaddon
Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Trader Jjenna Whats more fail? Black Ops or T3? Black Ops. Black Ops was introduced a year ago and is still unusable. T3 have at least another year to go before they're even in the same league.
Woulvesbaine	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor Originally by: Trader Jjenna Heak even retraining a rank 1 skill at level IV probably takes 3-4 days depending on attributes. Forget level V. What are your attributes at, exactly? 4 willpower, 4 perception, 4 intelligence, 4 memory and 12 charisma with no learning skills trained? Funny - at between 14 and 25 with my PvP pod for all characterisitics, training a defense subsystem from level 3 to level 4 takes 6 days. My hihgher characteristics are now percep/will but all my traning is skilled up etc. I think the original poster got it right . . . maybe even generous. At least according to evemon. Maybe a problem with evemon? Someone else check this.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:01:00 - [22] Edited by: Rajere on 21/05/2009 21:02:26 Quote: Funny - at between 14 and 25 with my PvP pod for all characterisitics, training a defense subsystem from level 3 to level 4 takes 6 days. My hihgher characteristics are now percep/will but all my traning is skilled up etc. about to finish training the first one now, but it's 3 days 9 hours for me to train any subsystem skill from 4 to 5. Originally by: adriaans creation of t3 and wormholes and such is probably the only aspect of eve i know too little about, could anyone explain why even if drop rates were increased they would stay that expensive due to the reverse engineering mechanics? (I have no clue about the entire production aspect of it, i know everything about t1 and t2 though if that matters for explaining it to me) T3 cruiser production requires a specific salvage that's an uncommon drop. It drops in WHs as low as C2's, which can be easily solo'd, the problem is the rarity combined with it's used for everything T3. Sub System reverse engineering works the same way T2 ship invention worked originally. ie you gather components for the attempt and if successful, your bpc is for a random type. For T2 ships, this meant if you were trying to invent a caldari recon, you could get a falcon or a rook bpc. For T3, you try and reverse engineer a Gallente offensive subsystem, and if successful you get Covert Reconfig, Dissonic Encoding, Drone Synthesis, or Hybrid Propulsion. The problem with this is the same as invention used to be. Nobody wanted Rook BPCs, everyone wanted Falcons. The majority of T3 Subsystems are terrible, there's only 1 sometimes 2 good subsystems per category, and the rest are fail. CCP tried to dissuade this by varying the slot layouts on the subsystems, but to maintain overall balance they could only vary slots so much, otherwise people would choose subsystems based solely on slots rather than the bonuses. As far as black ops being fail is concerned, it would be awesome if all you nubs would encourage CCP to reduce the production costs on Black Ops, so that their price drops to what you think they're worth. There market cost is basically their build cost, because there isn't any demand, and their current build costs is what makes them 700-800mil each. tia The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:01:00 - [23] I don't agree that T3 ships = fail. The actual ships are seriously awesome and while the price now is insane this may well change. CCP have said they want them to come down in price and if necessary will tweak things to bring this about. Lets wait and see how much T3 ships come down in price.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Rajere For T3, you try and reverse engineer a Gallente offensive subsystem, and if successful you get Covert Reconfig, Dissonic Encoding, Drone Synthesis, or Hybrid Propulsion. The problem with this is the same as invention used to be. Nobody wanted Rook BPCs, everyone wanted Falcons. The majority of T3 Subsystems are terrible, Thanks for explaining this. Lets hope CCP changes this.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Rajere For T3, you try and reverse engineer a Gallente offensive subsystem, and if successful you get Covert Reconfig, Dissonic Encoding, Drone Synthesis, or Hybrid Propulsion. The problem with this is the same as invention used to be. Nobody wanted Rook BPCs, everyone wanted Falcons. The majority of T3 Subsystems are terrible, thanks for that explanation, it makes a lot more sense now :) and yes, ccp reduce black op build costs with 50% already! -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Mr Reeth I've been pretty disappointed by a lot of things CCP have implemented recently(relative term). heat Heat is major win, one of the few things they've added recently that enhances the game, with no drawback. Boosters are another win. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Rajere CCP tried to dissuade this by varying the slot layouts on the subsystems, but to maintain overall balance they could only vary slots so much, otherwise people would choose subsystems based solely on slots rather than the bonuses. And what's wrong with that? T3 is supposed to be versatile. If I want to maximize slots while ignoring bonuses, why can't they balance that? What am I really going to do with 8 unbonused high and 8 unbonused lows, that is more overpowered than 6 bonused highs and 6 bonused lows? *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.21 22:10:00 - [28] Edited by: Rajere on 21/05/2009 22:13:21 The problem is you have to start with a baseline, which they did by controlling weapon hardpoints, which is controlled by your offensive subsystem (Engineering can add another, but ignoring that for now). So potential high slots (thus potential DPS) needed is controlled by the subsystem that gives you a bonus to your high slots. For all the other subsystems, for someone to choose one of the crappy subsystems instead of the good one, you'd need to offer extra slots, for it to overcome the one good subsystem bonus in that category. Which at that point it's not a question of unbonused highs vs bonused high's, it's 5 or 6 bonused highslots for weapons, and then 8 mids/4-6 lows or 8 lows/4-6 mids, etc. vs 5 or 6 bonused high slots, then a sub-optimal slot layout for your mids/lows like 3 mids, 6 lows, etc. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Lilith Velkor Minmatar OVERLOAD. Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2009.05.21 22:17:00 - [29] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 21/05/2009 22:17:27 Originally by: Woulvesbaine Funny - at between 14 and 25 with my PvP pod for all characterisitics, training a defense subsystem from level 3 to level 4 takes 6 days. My hihgher characteristics are now percep/will but all my traning is skilled up etc. You better petition that asap At my attributes, which are far from optimized and without learning implants it takes me a bit more than a day to get the subsystem skills from 3 to 4. (checked ingame, I happen to have it trained to lvl3 across the board in case I find an unmanned t3 ship by chance :P)
SpaceMagic Amarr Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2009.05.21 22:23:00 - [30] t3 Ships Are awsome and allow for customization unlike any other ship, the prices are fine you'll never see them as cheap as a command ship,

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