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[Issue] The new L4 Agents - Wrong Approach

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Ankhesentapemkah Gallente Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.05.29 09:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 29/05/2009 09:23:36 As we all know, CCP put some new agents in the game in Apocrypha 1.1, and the list has just come out. The totals: 2x Gallente Navy 1x Fed Intel 4x Caldari Navy 6x Corporate Police Force 2x Spacelane Patrol 1x Ishukone Watch 1x Sukuuvestaa 1x Hyasyoda 1x Lai Dai Protection Service 4x Brutor Tribe Thus the totals stand at: 3x Gallente 16x Caldari 4x Minmatar 0x Amarr Now, CCP's reasoning is "Most people run missions for Caldari, so let's add more Caldari agents to spread out the population". I say this is the wrong approach. Most people run missions for Caldari because they have the best and the most agents allowing selective missioning, turning down less-profitable missions and moving on to the next agent. Only Caldari can afford this very profitable selective missioning, because of the sheer amount of agents (they currently have almost as much L4 combat agents as the rest of the empires combined). Instead of making mission running more viable by adding more agents of the other races, they went the opposite way and just made the situation even more extreme. This is extremely bad game design, instead of encouraging players to truly spread out more and consider running missions for non-Caldari agents, they make running L4 missions for Caldari agents even more profitable. Let's look at the best agents that have been added: Gallente: L4 Q18 in 0.7 space, the cat(ch) being that this agent has the potential to send players to Old Man Star, which is lowsec factional warfare space. It also has 4 adjacent systems which makes the odds rather high to be sent out of system. Gallente: L4 Q16 in 0.7 space, one system next door....... And it's in solitude, good luck running your mission ship through 0.0 to get there. (okay this is a nice and welcome boost to the people that live in Solitude though, like me!) Minmatar: L4 Q15 in 0.8 space... No lowsec and only two adjacent systems though. Now the Caldari: Kia Isatoh L4 Q18 0.6, three adjacent systems of which one lowsec... Sucks right? WRONG! No stations in adjacent systems so this one won't send you out of solar system at all! If he does send you 2 jumps out to lowsec, then just go to Uuhulanen where you'll find your next L4 agent. Konuoma Ichodan L4 Q17 0.5, one adjacent system Urpiluola Samiwa L4 Q16 0.6, one adjacent system Sotrentaira Isara L4 Q15 0.5, two adjacent systems with stations, can send into lowsec (2 jumps away) Oduma Onnajus L4 Q18 0.7, three adjacent systems Hunen Arekila L4 Q16 0.7, four adjacent systems So instead of adding L4 agents to the factions that need them (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar and how about Sisters of EVE which have a grand total of 2 L4 agents in highsec?), CCP decides to boost Caldari even more. Yeah that makes it really hard to choose who to run missions for, and really makes me wonder why so many players run missions for Caldari and hardly anyone for Amarr... Another thing that indicates this wrong approach is CCP adding agents for the corps that already have plenty of them, instead of making other corporations more viable by adding some more combat-agents to them. This issue demands 23 new highsec L4 agents added... For each non-Caldari faction. ---
Dragon Greg Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.29 09:28:00 - [2] I'll agree it is a bit on the edge, especially given then debate on level 4's and low sec, but this new agent seed strikes me as a stopgap solution they are trying to see if they can further a trend with it. The idea is to tempt people away from their normal current high sec overpopulated mission hubs, quite possibly with a hindthought of hoping the people running the industry in such overpopulated hubs will follow the mission runs to alternate locations. Probably that is why there's an overweight of Caldari involved. If it works it may indeed lessen the stress on some places, and smarty indy folks may very well discover new geographical niche markets.
Muad' Dib Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.05.29 10:04:00 - [3] Never thought i'd agree with someone who campaigned to be elected on a 'i got boobs and a mini' campaign and who is what some ppl call a 'glorified pure carebear'. :( --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
ITTigerClawIK Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers	Posted - 2009.05.29 10:17:00 - [4] i do agree with most things but another reason for alot of people mission running for caldari is that there are alot more Caldari pilots out there who fly mainly Caldari ships, and in doing so would prefer Caldari items from the LP store and thus run but on the main part i do agree that agents for other races are indeed lacking for the amount of LvL 4's in high sec but mainly for higher quality agents missions for the Caldari corporations and the fact that caldari are getting alot more new agents where as Amarr get nothing.... zilch all ... Nada.... witch over all does not encourage people to do missions for the other races at all Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected])
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2009.05.29 10:23:00 - [5] This move will entice players using Amarr agents to switch to Caldari as they already have high standings with the faction and would have a easy time getting to the best agents. Adding several high quality Amarr agents would have got the opposite effect.
Karentaki Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.29 10:40:00 - [6] Agreed. CCP really need to stop making Caldari best at all the PVE activities (see W-Space, missions, ratting, caldari POS, etc. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Jin Labarre	Posted - 2009.05.29 10:53:00 - [7] I think all factions should be on equal terms. If a majority decides to roam Caldari space and faces problems doing so, these problems are the result of their own decisions. They should not get a bonus for that. Adding more agents is fine with me, but it should affect all factions equally. If there are more attractive mission hubs for other factions, more players will eventually grind their standing up, to run missions elsewhere.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.05.29 11:53:00 - [8] YARLY.
Kronsur Boon	Posted - 2009.05.29 12:01:00 - [9] Signed The existing mission system does not scale. There is no real intensive to move to the lower quality, or more dangerous missions agents.
Raukho Evoke. Ev0ke	Posted - 2009.05.29 12:48:00 - [10] agreed
Dex Nederland Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:24:00 - [11] Redistributing current agents would have likely been a better choice to solve the issue they were attempting to solve. As for adding agents, these agents offer nothing different from the agents they are counterparts to. They did not add combat or additional high level agents to R&D corporations as an example. In general CCP needs to sit down and figure out what they want their mission system to be and what "end-game" they want the PvE dedicated player to have. It isn't a gateway to factional warfare or 0.0 missioning; players are simply not taken along that path. In-Game Browser : http://ldis.caldari-made.net
Ankhesentapemkah Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.05.29 13:43:00 - [12] Updating OP with a list of agents I think should be added to make the other factions somewhat more competitive without being unbalanced. ---
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:03:00 - [13] Agreed said the same thing on vent last night ^^ ---
Bunyip Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:50:00 - [14] Agreed. While having more high-security level 4 agents in space is nice, the distribution really needs work in focusing on the other 3 races for PvE. Just because Crapdari are the masters of PvE (apparently) does not mean that nobody does missions in any other race of ship, nor with any other faction. Supported. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:52:00 - [15] A half support from me. Neglecting one faction over another should not happen. However, you dismissal that agents should be added to Lowsec instead of Highsec is a mistake. Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting. Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
Al'kanree	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:54:00 - [16] I agree also
Joshamee Gibbs Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.05.29 14:56:00 - [17] ------------- http://podlogs.com/enteringspace/
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.05.29 15:13:00 - [18] CCP was looking for a stopgap solution to lag, which this proposal isn't. That said, if they're looking for a long-term solution, this is the way to go. Make the other factions half as good at highsec missioning as the Caldari, and you won't have nearly the same problems with everyone living in Caldspace that you do at present. Also, in a similar vein, can we get a batch of Caldari lowsec agents like the other factions get? Put L4Q20 agents in systems like Ienakkamon and Saranen, and see if you can't move some of those Caldari missioners to lowsec. Won't be many who go, of course, but there should at least be the option, like the other factions get.
Donder Wolkje	Posted - 2009.05.29 15:37:00 - [19]
Solo Player	Posted - 2009.05.29 17:33:00 - [20] CCP asks the community's opinion on other things in advance. Why not with this idiocy?
Distorted Perception	Posted - 2009.05.29 20:26:00 - [21] More agents for the depopulated races will not suddenly cause a massive change in mission runner distribution. More agents for Caldari will reduce the load on the busiest mission systems. This is a good change although they could have added the same numbers all around.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.05.29 21:34:00 - [22] Signed. Highest quality lvl 4 Amarr Navy agent is a personel, everyone loves having to turn down all those damn courier missions.... --- Its like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Xymor X.M.I.	Posted - 2009.05.30 05:04:00 - [23] "Roy. Kh. NavyDanera (0.6)Q8SurveillanceKhanid" I would love you forever if you somehow got just this one agent in.
Leandro Salazar Quam Singulari	Posted - 2009.05.30 05:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 30/05/2009 05:51:41 Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 30/05/2009 05:46:50 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Now, CCP's reasoning is "Most people run missions for Caldari, so let's add more Caldari agents to spread out the population". I say this is the wrong approach. Most people run missions for Caldari because they have the best and the most agents allowing selective missioning, turning down less-profitable missions and moving on to the next agent. Only Caldari can afford this very profitable selective missioning, because of the sheer amount of agents (they currently have almost as much L4 combat agents as the rest of the empires combined). You are quite wrong on this. You are prolly too politically correct to write or even realize this, but the (sad?) truth is that most people run for Caldari rather than other factions because most people are lazy, unimaginative, plain stupid, or any combination of these most basic human virtues. You can already make much more isk from Amarr and Minmatar agents than you can make off Caldari ones, yet everyone and their dog sticks to Caldari for mission running. Heck, many cattle don't even realize that there are other corps than Caldari Navy that you can run missions for. Adding more agents for the other faction will not change that at all. There are more than enough rarely used agents out there already. Especially Amarr has some very good agent running locations as well, but they are not nearly as heavily congested as the Caldari ones. And to cherry-pick missions you don't really need a multi-agent system (though that makes it easier), you just need some 7.5 faction standing. I will agree though that definitely Gallente and maybe also Minmatar could use a little help when it comes to good highsec agents. Seems every fool running Gallente missions goes to Dodixie, so those numpties need an obvious alternative. But far more of these people in Caldari space, so adding more Caldari agents than other faction ones is definitely the correct approach. You cannot educate people that do not want to be educated. But you can ease the load these people place on each other and the rest of the universe. Which is exactly what CCP is doing by adding tons of Caldari agents. Not that I would mind a few more agents for other factions in general. Decent L4 Khanid in highsec for example would be very welcome. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Damien Du'Pont	Posted - 2009.05.30 06:00:00 - [25] I can certainly agree. If there are too many people in Caldari space, emphasize agents in other space (Gallente, Amarr, etc) to encourage people to spread out.
Erik Finnegan	Posted - 2009.05.30 08:23:00 - [26] Edited by: Erik Finnegan on 30/05/2009 08:25:41 edited for grammar :-} The basis for PvE must be right. Empires should be kind of leveled. Then again, I am wondering if it is the neutral undisputable static DB which makes pilots (and I mean the big massive majority of mission runners, who Leandro disrespectfully calls "cattle") move or stay in a certain area, let alone choose their race to begin with. Or would you not deem possible there are other, more subtle yet more powerful forces at work: like "my friends suggested that I do missions here". While I agree with Ankhe's suggestion, should we not also think about a more dynamic approach to agents? - Why do agents have to stay in one station? Don't they have a private life?! - Why do agents have a fixed quality? Don't they participate in personnel progress programmes of their companies?! - Why do agents have a fixed quality when it comes to your standing? Don't you have favoured suppliers in your company?! And one final thought: You want to spread out pilots? How about more mission rewards of the kind: "You did a great job. Here is the corporate card of a colleague of mine, who is in need of a talented pilot just like you!" Using personal standing towards that agent now in order to making him available to the pilot in question.
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.05.30 08:37:00 - [27] (CROSS POST FROM DEV BLOG : As per OP request) I'm sure others can validate the stats below, however here are a few stats for people to look at, with a break down of all agents by faction, for Basic Agents (R&D, Event, story line, FW, tutorial, etc excluded). factionName agentcount ------------------------------ ----------- Caldari State 133 Minmatar Republic 114 Gallente Federation 113 Amarr Empire 89 Ammatar Mandate 48 Over all this shows that Amarr is in some serious need of love over all agent levels, although you could argue that ammatar mandate is a sub set of ammar, but thats a moot point. Now, lets look at the number of level 4 agents, by faction regardless of division factionName agentcount ------------------------------ ----------- Caldari State 25 Minmatar Republic 19 Ammatar Mandate 17 Amarr Empire 15 Gallente Federation 15 This isnt too bad ammar actually has the best ratio of level 4's to the other main factions, with amattar mandate best over all, with a staggering 35% of agents being level 4, caldari has 18% of its agents at level 4, and Gallante is the worst with 13%. Now filtering for the following divisions divisionName -------------------- Command Intelligence Internal Security Security Surveillance we get the following stats factionName agentcount ------------------------------ ----------- Caldari State 18 Minmatar Republic 16 Ammatar Mandate 14 Amarr Empire 12 Gallente Federation 11 The same trend continues, with Ammatar having the best ratio and gallante having the worst. However with the new agent counts this moves a little and and increases the overall number of caldari level 4's to over 30. What im trying to show is that if CCP want people to move around eve and populate more of eves systems and factions, then its about time they stopped focusing on Caldari and make other factions as attractive to the PvE community.
Totally Hopeless	Posted - 2009.05.30 10:01:00 - [28] Bug thumbs up for this CCP facepalm... They really stepped in it deep this time. Caldari L4 agents need to be moved more homogenously in their systems, and the other factions need to have an equity of agents similarly spread throughout their space. While I may not be a fan of pushing L4 into lowsec, they should all have at least the potential of lowsec missions. Likewise, warring factions should have their corps moved to allied territory (Minmatar corps in Amarr space should be relocated to Gallente or Minmatar space, likewise with Amarr corps in Minmatar space). Many of these are, inexplicably, science corps (Core complexion, CreoDron, et al).
Leandro Salazar Quam Singulari	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Avalon Champion What im trying to show is that if CCP want people to move around eve and populate more of eves systems and factions, then its about time they stopped focusing on Caldari and make other factions as attractive to the PvE community. The thing is, if people do their homework, at least Minmatar and Amarr agents already ARE more attractive. Quite a bit more in fact. But people are ignorant about that because as I said above, people in general are lazy and other not very favorable things. And of course after they are told by their buddies with the same mindset that Caldari is good, they never bother to do their own research, run Caldari missions too and tell their own buddies about it, and so it spreads. And the people smart enough to run missions where the grass is greener are also smart enough to NOT try to encourage everyone to do the same, so the cattle herd doesn't get a whiff of that green grass and tramples it. And that actually serves both sides, the cattle don't know what they are missing, and the more professional mission runners can continue to get richer undisturbed. So serving Caldari a lot more agents while adding a few to the other factions seems to be prudent. The only thing I can think of to really move the lazy mission runner blob somewhere else would be to move Jita and the Caldari starter systems there :P Also if you count Ammatar as Amarr (which you damn well should imho) you need to do the same for Khanid. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Vuk Lau	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:56:00 - [30] Supporting this Also Thukker needs one station with couple of lvl4 agents in Lonetrek region

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