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Ancyker
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm splitting this up into a few parts to explain what, why, how as well as a counter. If you don't like the wall of text skip to the bottom for a rough explanation. (tldr at the bottom)
What? Currently local in null sec is like every where else in k-space. When someone enters system local updates to show them. This is partly a social aspect in most areas of k-space but in null sec and low sec it is an intelligence aspect.
To explain this to some of you that have never been to null: People rat in a system in relative safety. When a hostile enters, they all warp to safety (POS, station, cloaked in a safe spot, etc). Aside from removing part of the risk in null it does help bots. They can immediately react to a hostile entering and safe up. Players do occasionally miss a hostile entering system. I'll be upfront and say while it would put a damper on botting this is not in my list of concerns.
Why? The game mechanic of local, as explained in the lore and a few dev/GM posts I'm too lazy to look up to link is that when people jump into a system the gate informs all players already in the system of this. Gates are neutral so they don't belong to any corporation or alliance, they simply exist. They share intel with everyone.
To a point this makes sense, but it would also make sense to be able to "hack" the gate and hide intel from your enemies when you own a system.
This has been requested numerous times, but it seems no one can agree because it does favor the defending alliance if sharing the intel, which is why I propose a counter later in the post. If hiding intel from everyone people will argue it makes the risk too great.
How? My suggestion is to add an ihub upgrade that will disable local for all except the alliance holder. Standings would not apply so "blues" flying through the space would lack local as well. The upgrade should require a strategic index of 5.
When enabled it would be like w-space for all but the holding alliance. Names only displaying if someone talks, and then staying indefinitely. The holding alliance would see a delayed local, not an instant local. They can leave it alone and keep the instant local for all (no change).
I chose to withhold the information from standings blues to discourage the upgrade from being installed in every system. All the major alliances have blues that travel through their space, if major routes get this upgrade they will be forced to travel nearly blind. This should help encourage alliances to only install the upgrade in strategically important systems.
Counter? In the ship tree rework where they are giving destroyers and battlecruisers their own racial skills. A dev mentioned that racial destroyer only unlocks 1 ship, where as all other racial skills unlock 3 or more. Makes it kind of a waste. My suggestion is to add a new tier 2 destroyer, of which the tech 1 is a standard upgraded destroyer and the tech 2 is a black ops gate hacker.
The blops gate hacking destroyer can interface with an enemy gate and obtain the current local list. The module used for this cycles automatically, as long as it is running the local list is updated at the start of each cycle. This information is shared with the entire fleet of the user. The skill required reduces cycle time to give a more real-time list.
If the module is interrupted (canceled or the ship is destroyed) the local list simply stops updating for the fleet.
This ship works for the alliance holding the system as well, so they can hack their own gate and get real time local.
Of course, it's "just" a destroyer so it's fairly fragile. You'll need a few if you want to actually make use of them long term. It's a low end ship and a(nother) reason for a new player to take racial destroyer to 5.
Seems to make ratting in null easier? Yes and no. Delayed local is enough time to find and destroy someone. Sure you won't get multiple targets but intel channels still exist, when one dies the others will be informed anyway. It discourages "afk cloaky alts" that people seem to be into using lately as it would be more worthwhile to keep their presence out of system until they want to kill someone. I suspect all popular ratting systems will get this upgrade and that's the main reason for suggesting delayed local instead of real time.
tl;dr / Conclusion Remove local from null via an ihub upgrade needing strategic index 5. Only people in the alliance can see a delayed local, all others have no local including standings blues (discourages upgrading all systems). Add a new ship (destroyer class) to counter it by targeting a gate and using a module, sharing the local list with his fleet as long as the module remains active.
--
I was bored and it was just a thought. Not sure if it's a good one but thought I'd share. |

bongsmoke
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ancyker wrote:I'm splitting this up into a few parts to explain what, why, how as well as a counter. If you don't like the wall of text skip to the bottom for a rough explanation. (tldr at the bottom)
What? Currently local in null sec is like every where else in k-space. When someone enters system local updates to show them. This is partly a social aspect in most areas of k-space but in null sec and low sec it is an intelligence aspect.
To explain this to some of you that have never been to null: People rat in a system in relative safety. When a hostile enters, they all warp to safety (POS, station, cloaked in a safe spot, etc). Aside from removing part of the risk in null it does help bots. They can immediately react to a hostile entering and safe up. Players do occasionally miss a hostile entering system. I'll be upfront and say while it would put a damper on botting this is not in my list of concerns.
Why? The game mechanic of local, as explained in the lore and a few dev/GM posts I'm too lazy to look up to link is that when people jump into a system the gate informs all players already in the system of this. Gates are neutral so they don't belong to any corporation or alliance, they simply exist. They share intel with everyone.
To a point this makes sense, but it would also make sense to be able to "hack" the gate and hide intel from your enemies when you own a system.
This has been requested numerous times, but it seems no one can agree because it does favor the defending alliance if sharing the intel, which is why I propose a counter later in the post. If hiding intel from everyone people will argue it makes the risk too great.
How? My suggestion is to add an ihub upgrade that will disable local for all except the alliance holder. Standings would not apply so "blues" flying through the space would lack local as well. The upgrade should require a strategic index of 5.
When enabled it would be like w-space for all but the holding alliance. Names only displaying if someone talks, and then staying indefinitely. The holding alliance would see a delayed local, not an instant local. They can leave it alone and keep the instant local for all (no change).
I chose to withhold the information from standings blues to discourage the upgrade from being installed in every system. All the major alliances have blues that travel through their space, if major routes get this upgrade they will be forced to travel nearly blind. This should help encourage alliances to only install the upgrade in strategically important systems.
Counter? In the ship tree rework where they are giving destroyers and battlecruisers their own racial skills. A dev mentioned that racial destroyer only unlocks 1 ship, where as all other racial skills unlock 3 or more. Makes it kind of a waste. My suggestion is to add a new tier 2 destroyer, of which the tech 1 is a standard upgraded destroyer and the tech 2 is a black ops gate hacker.
The blops gate hacking destroyer can interface with an enemy gate and obtain the current local list. The module used for this cycles automatically, as long as it is running the local list is updated at the start of each cycle. This information is shared with the entire fleet of the user. The skill required reduces cycle time to give a more real-time list.
If the module is interrupted (canceled or the ship is destroyed) the local list simply stops updating for the fleet.
This ship works for the alliance holding the system as well, so they can hack their own gate and get real time local.
Of course, it's "just" a destroyer so it's fairly fragile. You'll need a few if you want to actually make use of them long term. It's a low end ship and a(nother) reason for a new player to take racial destroyer to 5.
Seems to make ratting in null easier? Yes and no. Delayed local is enough time to find and destroy someone. Sure you won't get multiple targets but intel channels still exist, when one dies the others will be informed anyway. It discourages "afk cloaky alts" that people seem to be into using lately as it would be more worthwhile to keep their presence out of system until they want to kill someone. I suspect all popular ratting systems will get this upgrade and that's the main reason for suggesting delayed local instead of real time.
tl;dr / Conclusion Remove local from null via an ihub upgrade needing strategic index 5. Only people in the alliance can see a delayed local, all others have no local including standings blues (discourages upgrading all systems). Add a new ship (destroyer class) to counter it by targeting a gate and using a module, sharing the local list with his fleet as long as the module remains active.
--
I was bored and it was just a thought. Not sure if it's a good one but thought I'd share.
Living in null sec for a while, I dunno about this, seems like a double edge sword.
Sometimes, just me and my buds hanging out scanning sites, mining or gate camping, then all of the sudden local goes from 10 players to 60 in 5 seconds, thats when we either safespot or jump, or wait till they jump.
I do like wormholes with no local, I think if people actually used their directional scanner like they should, they would prefer this option, but i know some alliances that would cut you for even suggesting it.
Personally, im on the fence, in the end, doesnt matter, CCP makes the decision and w/e it is, gotta adapt. |

Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
146
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
If people don't like local, live in WH's, problem solved. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |

Ancyker
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
bongsmoke wrote:Living in null sec for a while, I dunno about this, seems like a double edge sword.
Sometimes, just me and my buds hanging out scanning sites, mining or gate camping, then all of the sudden local goes from 10 players to 60 in 5 seconds, thats when we either safespot or jump, or wait till they jump.
I do like wormholes with no local, I think if people actually used their directional scanner like they should, they would prefer this option, but i know some alliances that would cut you for even suggesting it.
Personally, im on the fence, in the end, doesnt matter, CCP makes the decision and w/e it is, gotta adapt. Keep in mind it's elective. The alliance decides where local is disabled/delayed. The default is no change, everything is as it is now. They install the upgrade to change it. So if an alliance doesn't like it -- don't use it. Just another tool in The Sandbox. |

Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1 for effort and its not a mindless attempt to get the game changed in your favour.
I would love an Ihub upgrade that disables all information on the world map page creating complete dead zones where no one knows what is going on apart from the people living there I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |

Danfen Fenix
Vita Aequitas Veritas The Paganism Alliance
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'd be for it, but only if there is 'something', either a special type of probe, infra upgrade or deployable added, that allows you to also either detect cloaked ships, or someway of knowing that they're in system without them having to talk (of course, not without a little work, so a probe would be good for this. Alliances could have designated scanners to periodically scan the system for any pests)  |

Ancyker
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:I'd be for it, but only if there is 'something', either a special type of probe, infra upgrade or deployable added, that allows you to also either detect cloaked ships, or someway of knowing that they're in system without them having to talk (of course, not without a little work, so a probe would be good for this. Alliances could have designated scanners to periodically scan the system for any pests)  Well, the defending alliance still gets delayed local in the upgraded systems. Hostiles need only bring the new ship suggested or use probes to find out who's in system. And like w-space there's always d-scan. |

Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Blue Nation
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
a common thought in these changing how local works threads is changing how d-scan works also, make it less annoying to use , any thoughts on that? |

Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 22:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:If people don't like local, live in WH's, problem solved.
+1 my point exactly!
Removing local is NOT gonna stops bots by anymeans. They will do it using othermeans like gate fire effect or sound of gate fire and i am sure there are many other ways. The only reason why they use local is cos its easier and not cos its the only way! |

Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
314
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 22:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I like how it gives the possibility for the introduction of another ship type using destroyer hulls. +1 for offering something new. |

Ancyker
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 22:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If people don't like local, live in WH's, problem solved. +1 my point exactly! Removing local is NOT gonna stops bots by anymeans. They will do it using othermeans like gate fire effect or sound of gate fire and i am sure there are many other ways. The only reason why they use local is cos its easier and not cos its the only way! You'd have to be at the gate then... so you'd just, you know, see them on your overview?
It is possible to make things impossible. If the data isn't there it's not there. You can't magically know. If the server chooses not to send it then neither you nor bots will know about it. Period.
D-scan helps but oh wait, bombers. Get a bomber or a few with points, warp in cloaked, find target, uncloak, target, point. There you go. Got him. No counter other than having a scout inline between systems that don't have the upgrade. That is countered by logging out and waiting, log in after a while and grab a random target. It becomes a lot easier to catch bots as well as normal ratters.
But as I said, that is not the intended function, just a side effect. As for local and wormholes and everything. That's great if you wanna be fairly locked down to 1 system or want to be scanning all the time. My idea is about adding another feature, another tool, for alliances to play with. It's not forcing anything on anyone. The change is additive. An alliance need only use it if they wish to and a counter was provided for those wishing that alliance harm.
This suggestion adds more dynamic to eve and gets away from every system is the same. Null sec is null sec. You should have more control over systems you own -- within reason. I personally think it'd be cool to be able to use different tactics for different systems. This idea emphasizes scouting even more than it is now. It adds a new ship and role for people to aim for. And it keeps the sandbox fresh with another set of tools to bend the universe to your will. It's possible someone will come up with some crazy way to use this idea that had nothing to do with any of my original intentions, but that's what I love about eve. |

How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 22:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
As a highly (un)productive member of this eve society I approve of said idea! I myself would love to see local removed in Nullsec and this is a great way to go about it. The defenders should have an advantage when defending or flying in their own space.
+1 I love this idea.
|

Rune Star
Trauma Ward Winmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 23:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wait let me get this straight. A CFC publord wants to remove local? How will you know when to warp out of the belt in your drake when we come riding into town?  |

qDoctor Strangelove
Beware of the Red Fox
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 23:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
How2FoldSoup wrote:As a highly (un)productive member of this eve society I approve of said idea! I myself would love to see local removed in Nullsec and this is a great way to go about it. The defenders should have an advantage when defending or flying in their own space.
+1 I love this idea.
remove it in High Sec and Low Sec as well. As it is now war-targets dock up when entering local. Also, when a couple of -10 pirates enter local, the miner-bots tend to dock up. |

How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 23:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:How2FoldSoup wrote:As a highly (un)productive member of this eve society I approve of said idea! I myself would love to see local removed in Nullsec and this is a great way to go about it. The defenders should have an advantage when defending or flying in their own space.
+1 I love this idea.
remove it in High Sec and Low Sec as well. As it is now war-targets dock up when entering local. Also, when a couple of -10 pirates enter local, the miner-bots tend to dock up.
Woops, I meant to include Low in there as well, however I seemed to have forgotten to mention it. As for Highsec It's a whole different monster entirely. It should be nerfed into the ground and be used as a noobs training ground. Let them have their local.
You do bring up a fair point dealing with miner bots and dealing sweet justice though. Perhaps just leave it delayed in highsec due to concord influenced or some such. |

Caldari Citizen20110707
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 23:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
gtf back to high sec or wow |

Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 23:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:How2FoldSoup wrote:As a highly (un)productive member of this eve society I approve of said idea! I myself would love to see local removed in Nullsec and this is a great way to go about it. The defenders should have an advantage when defending or flying in their own space.
+1 I love this idea.
remove it in High Sec and Low Sec as well. As it is now war-targets dock up when entering local. Also, when a couple of -10 pirates enter local, the miner-bots tend to dock up.
No. High-Sec should remain Highly Secure. That means the local navies/CONCORD monitor the gates even closer. Local stays.
|

Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
148
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP supports griefing so much now, if it removed local the game would see fewer industrialists than ever, griefers get it all (including pathetically tanked hulks as targets) industrialists have practically nothin.
tl;dr Keep local. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |

Serge Bastana
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
500
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:CCP supports griefing so much now, if it removed local the game would see fewer industrialists than ever, griefers get it all (including pathetically tanked hulks as targets) industrialists have practically nothin.
tl;dr Keep local.
Not if they're all as weak willed as you, no, they don't, but I know that they aren't all like you so that's a moot point.
This idea has some potential, I can see some will oppose it even though they wouldn't have to put it to use and would have some counter to give themselves the ability to use local despite a sov holding alliance removing it in some systems. Would certainly make things interesting. WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |

Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
350
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have a better idea.
What if only blues showed up fully in local, and neutrals just showed up as an unknown? Unless they talked.
So you'd see a blank portrait with a question mark, and an unknown instead of a name. Everybody wins. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |

Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ancyker wrote:To a point this makes sense, but it would also make sense to be able to "hack" the gate and hide intel from your enemies when you own a system.
It also makes at least as much sense that you'd be able to "hack" the gate and prevent your enemies from using it at all, let alone for intel.
The gate and local systems really seem to stand apart from sovereignty.
|

Mack Gyver
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
NO NO NO AND NO. OP you clearly are an idiot and dont get the game at all. i mean really build a ship just to hack gates LOLZ you stupid ass noobs nowadays wanting the game to fit your terms or ideas. tbh nothing in eve needs to change. but in all actuallity things need to be added, such as content and fixes. we dont need new ships, local nerf, ship nerf buff etc. it is the way it is, if you dont like it move on i hear d3 and wow are recruiting, if thats too tough for you and your very very important game changing brain then there is always hello kitty online. |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
784
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 00:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Local in player sov null sec is not realistic.
Where Concord or the NPC nullsec owners are present it might make sense that they impose everybody to be publicly detectable. A sov 0.0 should require a specific structure that requires sov to be levelled up enough to be anchored. This way the developed systems would really "earn" an higher sec status (higher sec as in, by knowing all who enter and leave they are safer to live into). Undeveloped, borderline systems would really be the "nobody's lands". This would foster new playstyles: nomadic "ninjas", brigants, smugglers and other juicy shady things that can prosper when things are kept quiet. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Powers Sa
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 01:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mack Gyver wrote:NO NO NO AND NO. OP you clearly are an idiot and dont get the game at all. OP, ignore the rest of the bullcrap this guy wrote, and read the sentence.
Local is necessary for Nullsec. It is how you teach new players to look out for themselves. Goonswarm has a thriving newplayer program, and one of the things we teach our new players (NewBees), is to be mindful of intel channels, and local.
|

Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Exhale.
257
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 03:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Here's how you do it:
1. open eve source code 2. find section of code regarding local in WHs 3. select it, hit crtl+c 4. find section of code regarding local in nullsec 5. select it, hit ctrl+v 6. ??? 7. celebrate making nullsec PVP interesting.
Local turns 95% of pvp into blobbing, station games and POSing up. |

Ancyker
Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 15:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Mack Gyver wrote:NO NO NO AND NO. OP you clearly are an idiot and dont get the game at all. OP, ignore the rest of the bullcrap this guy wrote, and read the sentence. Local is necessary for Nullsec. It is how you teach new players to look out for themselves. Goonswarm has a thriving newplayer program, and one of the things we teach our new players (NewBees), is to be mindful of intel channels, and local. This is why it is an addition and not a change. It adds the option for an alliance to remove local where they choose. Again, I point out that it is elective. You can do nothing and leave it as it is (live local), or an alliance can install the ihub upgrade and remove local for their enemies and delay it for themselves as a byproduct of their hack.
As for "blocking access to the gate entirely" it's a lot easier to block a signal. The game lore can explain the gate hacking in many ways.
Try this way for example:
The ihub upgrade transmits a pattern that creates interference and prevents ships from receiving the local list. The upgrade then transmits the list on a different frequency only allied ships know about.
The ship gate hacking is simply asking the gate for something it normally shares freely so it's actually not hacking it (this is a list normally given without asking for it). The difference is once the ship has the list it transmits it to everyone fleeted in the solar system.
Blocking access to a gate via hacking would be much more difficult than blocking a simple signal.
To add: it could be like cyno jamming and be a POS mod (and therefore be destructible) |

Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 16:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ancyker wrote: You'd have to be at the gate then... so you'd just, you know, see them on your overview?
Nah, as the search for an "i win" button continues, they will soon be requesting to have the overview removed, too.
|

Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
592
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 17:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
just make local truely delayed ( not wh delay) if your in system for more then 2 minutes you appear in local. when u jump in you have 2 minutes to hunt for bots, ratting players, people in anoms before they know you are there..
when you jump in you also do not have local for 2 minutes. so you might be in an empty system ( d-scan away works) or there can be 100 reds in system. the i-hub upgrade thing can be in it also, but for the purpose of alliance members are instantly on d-scan, maybe blues as well.... |

Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 17:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
In 2 Minutes, i can manually fly to every "high value" anomalie in system while scanning for complexes. |

Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ancyker wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:If people don't like local, live in WH's, problem solved. +1 my point exactly! Removing local is NOT gonna stops bots by anymeans. They will do it using othermeans like gate fire effect or sound of gate fire and i am sure there are many other ways. The only reason why they use local is cos its easier and not cos its the only way! You'd have to be at the gate then... so you'd just, you know, see them on your overview? It is possible to make things impossible. If the data isn't there it's not there. You can't magically know. If the server chooses not to send it then neither you nor bots will know about it. Period. D-scan helps but oh wait, bombers. Get a bomber or a few with points, warp in cloaked, find target, uncloak, target, point. There you go. Got him. No counter other than having a scout inline between systems that don't have the upgrade. That is countered by logging out and waiting, log in after a while and grab a random target. It becomes a lot easier to catch bots as well as normal ratters. But as I said, that is not the intended function, just a side effect. As for local and wormholes and everything. That's great if you wanna be fairly locked down to 1 system or want to be scanning all the time. My idea is about adding another feature, another tool, for alliances to play with. It's not forcing anything on anyone. The change is additive. An alliance need only use it if they wish to and a counter was provided for those wishing that alliance harm. This suggestion adds more dynamic to eve and gets away from every system is the same. Null sec is null sec. You should have more control over systems you own -- within reason. I personally think it'd be cool to be able to use different tactics for different systems. This idea emphasizes scouting even more than it is now. It adds a new ship and role for people to aim for. And it keeps the sandbox fresh with another set of tools to bend the universe to your will. It's possible someone will come up with some crazy way to use this idea that had nothing to do with any of my original intentions, but that's what I love about eve.
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