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Salvage stealing vs. loot stealing.

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Aucello	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:29:00 - [1] Lately, I've been having to deal with several players that are too lazy to run their own missions, and they find it acceptable to come into my mission to steal my salvage. I seriously don't understand why CCP allows this. The player gets flagged if they steal loot from one of my wrecks, so why isn't the same true if they come to steal my salvage? What's that? You say the salvage doesn't belong to anyone? Sure it does. It belongs to me just as the loot within the wreck does. I expended the time, effort, and ammo to kill the mob. There wouldn't even be a wreck to loot and salvage if it wasn't for me. I'm the one taking the risk and these jackasses can just waltz in and steal to their heart's content. CCP tries to make this game as real and balanced as they can. If this were real life, we would have kill rights on offending parties just as we do when they steal loot. Please reconsider your stance on this issue. There should be some risk for those who would steal. Thank you, Aucello
leich Amarr Knights of the Old Empire	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:41:00 - [2] Salvage isnt yours. Loot is yours. Build a Bridge and get over it carebear
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:43:00 - [3] Yay for repeat threads! Just contribute to the one that's already created... don't make your own. It only clutters the forums and reduces what little interest people may have had in the topic to begin with.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:44:00 - [4] They should remove wreck ownership to eliminate confusion over this. Better yet, they move all module drops to salvaging and even better, remove intact modules completely and move over to T1 components and meta BPC items.
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Marcus Gideon The easiest solution to the whole "problem" is quite obvious. When you salvage a wreck with loot still in it, what happens? A jet can spawns. So... change it such that killing a ship immediately spawns a neutral wreck and a corp tagged jet can. Then any salvager can tractor the wreck, while only the combatant and their friends can tractor the jet can. That way salvaging remains an open ended profession, while the combatant can still claim their loot. EDIT: For those who would suggest lag or whatever... they'd both time out after the usual 2hrs. And you can set your Overview to only display Wrecks or only Jet Cans if that is what you're after.
jagoff Cosmic Cakes	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:50:00 - [6] you need to be salvaging each wreck in your mission immediately after killing it. or, if someone shows up and is salvaging your wrecks, just blow up all the wrecks before he can salvage them. if they show up and salvage while you are still fighting the rats in the mission, warp out and let the rats chase him off. if you really want to make an impact, switch ships and suicide gank their salvager. if the salvager belongs to a player corp, war dec it. there are game mechanics in place to grief the people who grief you. you talk about this game in terms of "real life". this game is not a "real life simulator".
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Aucello Lately, I've been having to deal with several players that have trained to scan people down running their own missions, and I find it acceptable for them to come into my mission to steal this random salvage I've found. I understand completely why CCP allows this. The player gets flagged if they steal loot from one of my wrecks, so why isn't the same true if they come to steal this random salvage I've found? What's that? You say the salvage belongs to me? Sure it doesn't. It doesn't belong to me as the loot within the wreck does. I expended the time, effort, and ammo to kill the mob, whilst they expended time and effort to find me. There wouldn't even be a wreck to loot and salvage if it wasn't for me. I'm the one taking the risk and these jackasses can just waltz in and clean-up to the server's content. CCP tries to make this game as real and balanced as they can. If this were real life, we would have kill rights on offending parties when they steal loot, but salvaging isn't stealing so it is fine that we don't. Please make sure you don't reconsider your stance on this issue. There should be some risk for those who would run missions in empire. Thank you, Aucello Fixed your post for you. Seriously, when mission runners have to take risks to make ISK, then you have a valid point, until then, read this: Point number 1 Mission ships don't do so well against PVP fit ships. That is just a fact. How many mission fits contain a warp scrambler/disruptor? How many mission fits use very specific hardeners? About all of them. Considering that shooting at a target even with aggression would cause them to have shooting rights on you, your mission ship will be OMGWTFBBQPWN'd by any reasonable ship brought out against you. This would cause more problems for mission runners like you as supply and demand would make your (now often replaced) ships much more expensive. Trust me when I say you would not find that fun. Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. Point Number 3 Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Point Number 4 You can prevent ninja Salvagers from invading your mission by moving from missioning hubs to more quiet systems. I have on my main a nice L4q18 agent in a system with about 20 people in local MAX. This means my chances of having my salvage ninja'd is very small. However you may lose just a little profit on the mission. Or move to low sec and get free aggression on them there! I am not a salvage ninja, and I run my own missions, but I like to consider that salvaging ninjas make the game a better place by making it less like WOW. And these salvaging whines are getting old ________________________________________________ Check out my ideas! New Destroyers
Nannageddon Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Aucello If this were real life... This made me laugh. Just when is it in your real life that you go around blowing up pirates and getting "kill rights" and salvaging wrecks and... well you get the idea. It's nothing like "real life". It's a game. The wrecks aren't yours. Why? Because CCP says so. The solution to this is isn't all that hard to work out, but does involve thinking about it for all of 3 seconds: form a fleet and bring them along to salvage for you.
Gavin Miner	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. well actualy it takes about 5 minutes to learn to scan down a mission runner and about 3 minutes to actually find someone. skill training to do it is like a 3 days for a new character, which is where there are so many ninja alts. I don't think as many people would have problems iwht ninja salvagers if there was a risk:reward ratio at all there, but there isn't its pure profit with no risk involved at all.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Gavin Miner I don't think as many people would have problems iwht ninja salvagers if there was a risk:reward ratio at all there, but there isn't its pure profit with no risk involved at all. Your use of risk vs reward alone renders your argument invalid. Risk is not the only variable defining reward. Risk vs reward is the most overused and demented argument on this forum. It honestly needs to die out. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Abrazzar Risk is not the only variable defining reward. Risk vs reward is the most overused and demented argument on this forum. It honestly needs to die out. QFT
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Abrazzar Risk is not the only variable defining reward. Risk vs reward is the most overused and demented argument on this forum. It honestly needs to die out. Amen
Gavin Miner	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Gavin Miner I don't think as many people would have problems iwht ninja salvagers if there was a risk:reward ratio at all there, but there isn't its pure profit with no risk involved at all. Your use of risk vs reward alone renders your argument invalid. Risk is not the only variable defining reward. Risk vs reward is the most overused and demented argument on this forum. It honestly needs to die out. then lets go with time vs rewards, huh? lets see completely salvage someone elses AE4 takes 20 minutes. for a profit of around 30 million ISK would you care to list any other activity that provides 1.5 million ISK per minute to a 5 day old character or perhaps you'd like to explain hwhat kind of effect this will have on an conomy bwhere wealth DOES buy everything even beyond skill or ttime in game?
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:58:00 - [14] To be honest, the only owner of either salvage and loot would be the owner of the ship. In case of missions: NPCs, so yeah even looting should be possible. Now, THAT would be fun, but you should be able to open fire (more baits for carebears, yay!).
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Gavin Miner then lets go with time vs rewards, huh? lets see completely salvage someone elses AE4 takes 20 minutes. for a profit of around 30 million ISK would you care to list any other activity that provides 1.5 million ISK per minute to a 5 day old character or perhaps you'd like to explain hwhat kind of effect this will have on an conomy bwhere wealth DOES buy everything even beyond skill or ttime in game? 5 day old character in my L4 mission? I hold my fire, recall my drones, and either tank for a few minutes or just warp out and let the rats eat him alive. Then I warp back in, finish the site, and salvage his ship along with the rest.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:58:00 - [16] Yeah players should not get flagged for either.
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.18 19:05:00 - [17] Once upon a time... Looting a can owned by someone else DIDN'T flag anyone. And then people complained and whined, most likely in these very forums. So CCP fixed it by adding the aggro thing. Now if someone steals from you, you can fight them off. Of course, since then it's become a game of cat and mouse. Flip in something small but well tanked. Wait for them to attack you (thus completing the Circle of Aggro), and then beat them down with something large and menacing. If wrecks caused aggro, it would not only defeat the point of Salvaging being a profession on its own... it would lead to more runners being ganked for "trying" to defend themselves. Now... if killing a rat spawned a Corp tagged jet can AND a neutral wreck... then everyone would be happy. Runners get their loot, and Salvagers get their wrecks. Everyone can tractor and collect what they're entitled to, and no one gets blown up unnecessarily.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.06.18 19:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Aucello steal my salvage Can not steal salvage. Originally by: Aucello steal to their heart's content. Let me repeat. One can not steal salvage. Originally by: Aucello If this were real life, we would have kill rights on offending parties just as we do when they steal loot. I don't think there is a thing called Kill Rights when someone steals something from you in real life. Just war dec em you big wussy. They will go into hiding when you bring out the Big Guns.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:16:00 - [19] The useless s**will always cry in this situation. The useless sbeing the salvage thieves. Yes, they are thieves. Look at the wreck. It has ownership. Until CCP changes that, then they are salvage thieves. Until CCP changes that, the mechanic allowing other players to salvage wrecks is broken. A wreck will take on the corp ticker. A wreck will even flag as belonging to a Militia. Attack the can, and you will be attacked. You cannot tractor it. Everything aside from salvaging the wreck supports wreck ownership. Saying that it is working as intended is simply ****ed. It is either broken because it flags the wreck with ownership or it is broken because it can be salvaged. Either way, it is broken and CCP needs to fix it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:23:00 - [20] Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Verys on 18/06/2009 20:34:23 Originally by: Aucello ...and they find it acceptable to come into my mission to steal my salvage... Now this is where you are wrong and I highlighted the parts for you. I will explain to you why salvage does not belong to you by posting my explanation I've posted many times: Flagging of loot stealing is fine but flagging of salvaging would not. "Why?" do you ask? Well there is simple logic behind it. Modules are worth money and since they are spoils of battle/war they belong to you and you get them. If someone steals a reward belonging to you it is theft. Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. It is trash, space dust, rubbish. It is a piece of floating debris. You can't do much with a wreck unless you have specialized equipment (the salvage module). This means that only this way a wreck is actually useful as you get salvage parts from salvaging from a wreck. It's just junk until somebody cleans it up, and nobody likes junk. And all this getting angry about people coming in "cough" your "cough" mission and stealing space junk is beyond me. To me this seems like pure greed and that is if LVL 4's didn't already pay out enough at so little risk (yes little you can do them semi-afk or afk with a domi). The only time LVL 4's are hard is if you have just been flying a battleship and skipped the entire BC class or unless you stroll in the Extravaganza bonus room unprepared. And as a closure you have the advantage as the wreck-maker. You have the tractor beam option so you can get those wrecks extra fast and a salvage slot on most ships if that isn't an advantage over a ninja salvager then I don't know what is.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:37:00 - [22] Why the space garbage argument against it being stealing is fail... ...if it was not worth anything, why do people do it? Everything about the wreck BUT salvaging shows ownership. Deal with it folks, and stop crying about the fact that you are crying about people having a reason to be upset with what you are doing. Seriously, for each thread on this - there are one or two people that you would say are crying against it - and there are how many people crying for it? GTFO, so seriously.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Why the space garbage argument against it being stealing is fail... Seriously, for each thread on this - there are one or two people that you would say are crying against it - and there are how many people crying for it? GTFO, so seriously. Pretty much a lot of people are against it they just don't bother posting anymore because some people have such a hard head and don't want to accept a valid point of view. This whole things comes down to greed.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Yes, there policies are often clear - nerf, nerf, nerf and ignore any sort of logic; we know that. This is simply a way for them to get more money out of a person, forcing them to run two accounts. Quote: Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Can the other player attack that wreck? Do you mean Concord takes an interest in it if they do? So what is it? Does Concord care or not care... or does CCP just not have a clue? Quote: Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Who called it an exploit? It is a bug. Fix it. Quote: Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Funny that for everything but salvaging, that the server attributes ownership. Bug much? Quote: (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) They are good to have around to point out how they do not have a clue. We already knew this, but thank you for affirming that...
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point number 1 Mission ships don't do so well against PVP fit ships. That is just a fact. How many mission fits contain a warp scrambler/disruptor? How many mission fits use very specific hardeners? About all of them. Considering that shooting at a target even with aggression would cause them to have shooting rights on you, your mission ship will be OMGWTFBBQPWN'd by any reasonable ship brought out against you. This would cause more problems for mission runners like you as supply and demand would make your (now often replaced) ships much more expensive. Trust me when I say you would not find that fun. This is simple to deal with and need not be as complicated as you make it out to be. When the person flags for any theft, they can return fire if fired upon. However, if they experience a session change - they lose their right to shoot until they once again are shot at. This will prevent them from flagging, getting the other person to attack, and then returning with a PVP ship. Sounds silly, eh? Then again, based on what you are suggesting - how many PVP fit mining barges and exhumers are there? Theft is theft and should flag. It is up to the victim of the theft to determine if they want to engage.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. Takes less than 5 minutes to scan a player down. Takes less than three days to train up for it. Salvaging makes more profit than running the missions. The amount of time it takes to complete a mission versus the time it takes for a salvage thief to hit up multiple mission runners does not even compare. This was just a silly argument.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 3 Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Faolchu is mistaken in the value that Concord places on wrecks. Shoot at a wreck belonging to another player to find out how... Prism is mistaken in the server code does not attribute ownership of wreck. Check out the corp ticker. Check out the militia flag. Check out the actions you can and cannot do with the wrecks.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 4 You can prevent ninja Salvagers from invading your mission by moving from missioning hubs to more quiet systems. I have on my main a nice L4q18 agent in a system with about 20 people in local MAX. This means my chances of having my salvage ninja'd is very small. However you may lose just a little profit on the mission. Or move to low sec and get free aggression on them there! This does not prevent it. It simply reduces the chance. Only CCP can prevent this, and they are blindly ignorant of the issue they have created.
Photus Caldari Roll For Initiative	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:16:00 - [29] Easiest way to prevent getting ninja'd? Salvage it yourself! Truth be told, I started the game as a loot thief. I didn't quite understand the concepts of missioning or economy. This was also back when people would leave LOADS of cans just floating 80KM from the gate. I'd go up in my Kestral and pop all the cans. Yes, it was risky. Yes, I was attacked frequently. Yes, I think it was ok. If the salvage is truly important to you, then don't let it float around. Bring in a buddy or an alt to salvage while you pew pew. If that's not a possibility for you, either learn to do the missions faster or move down a level. I've had people salvage out from under me, and sure I find it frustrating. But then again, I've also lured people into getting their faction ship CONCORD'd and salvaging their wreck right in front of them. It just goes to show you that you shouldn't kneel down in front of the third rail, grab it with both hands, and **** on it from three feet away.
Blastrodamus	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Only CCP can prevent this, and they are blindly ignorant of the issue they have created. CCP is "blindly ignorant" of something they purposely put into the game mechanics? if CCP intended salvage to belong to the killer, they would have enforced that by giving the killer rights to his wrecks, the same way the killer has rights to the loot in the wreck. if this is what CCP intended, then ninja salvaging would be considered a bug and it would have been "fixed" a long time ago. CCP intentionally made a distinction in their code between the loot from a wreck and the salvage from a wreck when it come to ownership. i would not call this "blind ignorance." i understand that the eve universe is harsh, and people want to change that. i argue against all that because the harshness is what draws me and lots of other people to this game.

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