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Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.19 12:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Bad Bobby I get the feeling that Shar and Hexxx have a price so high as to be more or less unreachable. I guess that their principles could hold to the point of irrationality. I've never had anyone describe it quite like that before. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:26:00 - [62] Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So when does the titan nerf factor into this? I mean after all you should have heard about the FLEET of titans taking down 1 carrier just with DD's. Now imagine if 500 carriers had been on the grid... People have been complaining for awhile thats Titans are an "I Win" button and coupled with the fact that everybody and their brother can get their hands on one, the nerfbat will be heading that way. So add that into the potential risks. What happens if CCP nerfs Titans?? Not only will the bpcs stop selling, but good luck finding a buyer for the BPO as it would be practically worthless. Discuss....
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Breaker77 So when does the titan nerf factor into this? I mean after all you should have heard about the FLEET of titans taking down 1 carrier just with DD's. Now imagine if 500 carriers had been on the grid... People have been complaining for awhile thats Titans are an "I Win" button and coupled with the fact that everybody and their brother can get their hands on one, the nerfbat will be heading that way. So add that into the potential risks. What happens if CCP nerfs Titans?? Not only will the bpcs stop selling, but good luck finding a buyer for the BPO as it would be practically worthless. Discuss.... I've already said my piece on exactly these points somewhere on page 2. But ultimately my view is that a well handled rebalance of Titans may well reduce their power but not their popularity, overpowered is one thing but useful and fun has a whole lot more longevity and I expect that is where Titans are headed next. Obviously CCP could make an utter hash of it all and there are plenty of precidents for that, so ultimately this venture will always be based on a gamble on what CCP does or does not do with Titans and Titan counters in the future. But as I said before, I think I'm betting on the favourite in this race. What is your money on?
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:46:00 - [64] I share Breaker's concerns: CCP's history with the nerf bat includes a poor batting average. See also ECM, minmitar, speed, and wormhole loot. In all of these cases, I think popularity was impacted by the nerf. I respect that you may not be a FOTM player, but my belief is there is a prevalance of them making up the customer base for an operation like this.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:52:00 - [65] It is entirely possible that they can be rebalanced so they are not an "I Win" button. However as you hinted at, CCP seems to not have much of a clue on how to do that properly. If the only thing they were to change would be to rebalance DD's then I think Titans would still be in demand. Now if CCP were to make DD's useless then they really are nothing more than an oversized battleship/commandship combined into one and I could see them perhaps only being used as a status symbol such as Chribba's Veldatar. The 65 billion ISK question: Do you think CCP could find a way to fix them without turning them into what Black Ops have become if they did rebalance/fix them? I'd place 1 billion into a venture such as this, even with CCP's track record of screwing it up *While I am not aware of any upcoming changes/nerfs/ect.. The possibilty is always there.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Dzil I share Breaker's concerns: CCP's history with the nerf bat includes a poor batting average. See also ECM, minmitar, speed, and wormhole loot. In all of these cases, I think popularity was impacted by the nerf. I respect that you may not be a FOTM player, but my belief is there is a prevalance of them making up the customer base for an operation like this. Yes, I'm not a FOTM player. I love the ECM "nerf" for the amount of extra fun and the skill requirement it has added to being an ECM pilot, I love the new Blaster Falcon and the new low price tag on them (temporary while people adjust I expect). I love minmatar ships, them being my favourites in the sub-BS class with the exception of certain Amarr ships (read: Vengeance) that I loved long before Amarr became FOTM. I fully support the speed changes and the need for even tougher dicisions when it comes to your mid slots. Also, I've made fistfulls of isk out of wormholes throughout the past changes and I expect to do well out of the future changes. But I am a player-skill orientated EVE player who seeks fresh challenges at every turn. I am someone who believes that "adapt and overcome" is a way of life and I have dedicated myself to it. I welcome each new change as a challenge and I try to ensure my corp mates and fleet members do the same... but yes I understand that the 'popular' breed of EVE players are something totally different and I do understand that nerfs often reduce mass popularity. Aside form the specific "nerfs" you have mentioned here, the specifics of which I broadly support, there have been many changes that have massively improved the popularity of different ship classes. Do you remember when Assault Frigates were shunned? Now they are bread and butter for a lot of fast moving fleets. Do you remember the Interdictor changes? Are they really any less essential to 0.0 pew-pew now, flying coffins or not? My point and my defence for Titans is that CCP are capable of good changes, it may not be the rule but there is still a good case history for it. Yes, mass popularity of ships has less to do with 'real' power and fun and more to do with 'easy' power and I-WIN buttons applied to substandard opponents. I'm making no secret of that fact that I'm backing a horse here, it could end up in the glue factory... that I accept, but it could end up as a prize stud. Place your bets now please. Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:23:00 - [67] Edited by: Saehta on 19/06/2009 14:25:47 Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So, rip it apart chaps! Change it from a half baked scheme into an ironclad plan... Assuming minimums of 15 bil per ME0 print and 18bil per ME1 print (pulled numbers out of my arse based on 15-20 bil per print 110 days - 30bil 237 days - 36bil 347 days - 36bil 102 bil return on 283 bil investment For year 2 I would have at least a 10% reduction of profits from saturation or potential changes but the ME would be 2-3 for that year EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Breaker77 The 65 billion ISK question: Do you think CCP could find a way to fix them without turning them into what Black Ops have become if they did rebalance/fix them I also like the Redeemer. Yes, it could be better, but some ships are destined to be nieche because player skill and fleet organisation is needed to get the best out of them. That's not an asset that the majority of players and fleets can draw upon and I don't believe it could or should be any different. But yes, I get your point and I agree with you. CCP could screw up the Titan totally. I'm betting on them not doing that and I'm certain to be working to help them do the right thing with them regardless of whether that is as a Titan pilot or as a Titan IPO manager. I don't expect to be alone on that either.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Saehta Edited by: Saehta on 19/06/2009 14:25:47 Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So, rip it apart chaps! Change it from a half baked scheme into an ironclad plan... Assuming minimums of 15 bil per ME0 print and 18bil per ME1 print (pulled numbers out of my arse based on 15-20 bil per print 110 days - 30bil 237 days - 36bil 347 days - 36bil 102 bil return on 283 bil investment For year 2 I would have at least a 10% reduction of profits from saturation or potential changes but the ME would be 2-3 for that year Also remember that in year 2 we have the option of sticking with the level of ME we have reached and doubling our copy output instead, if we see that as being the best choice. Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity. Is that forbidden by CCP? Using current high sec dreads for combat, I mean.
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:40:00 - [71] Yes. Jump drive ships are pretty much banished to low/null sec. The few high sec ones remain on the graces that their owners keep them as collectors items, not combat ships. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:41:00 - [72] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity. Is that forbidden by CCP? Using current high sec dreads for combat, I mean. Yes. Ask Chribba if you don't believe me. He won't even shoot at a shuttle that is begging to be on a "Chribba's Veldnaught killmail" and promissing not to petition him!
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:44:00 - [73] Quote: Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value. It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Dzil Quote: Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value. It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though. A student of Aristotle, I see. Just out of interest, how do you rate me in the rhetorical trio?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:59:00 - [75] Quote: It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though A peculiarity of business in EvE is that the above may be read as a palindrome, where you: - start with Logos. A lot of it . - are challenged and answer in the name of Ethos - end up with a dirty scam and then you fuel the Pathos!
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:00:00 - [76] Normally much more factual - the emotional charge was a bit out of character for you :) But you're not often in the position of asking/potentially asking for money on these forums. Guess I'd say Logos > Pathos > Ethos. Not to call you out as unethical, it's just rarely a topic you dive into. But who knows, you can't really judge by a series of forum posts :P Myself - if I'm not overderailing your thread? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:06:00 - [77] More Comments 1. Don't see need of auditor if you have 5 trusted players on BOD 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. 3. Just keep it simple, raise the cash buy the prints, BOD locks down. Need 3 to unlock sell prints. Pay divs with holding corp. BOD I would trust any 4 (+ you) from some of the following names on forum: Hexx Shar Kwint Ray Cosmoray Kazzac eVaLF AC155 Athre Couple of other posssible, but some are also involved in locking down 10's of Bills. I would also want any BOD member to be heavily in vested in venture (multiple B's)
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:16:00 - [78] Originally by: Dzil who knows, you can't really judge by a series of forum posts :P Fair comment. Originally by: Dzil Myself - if I'm not overderailing your thread? The last half page is pretty much dominated by thread derail, I can't really complain since I've followed the flow of conversation right off the rails and well into the ditch... It's a slow day at work, or at least that's my excuse. But I would referr the honourable gentlemen to the first quote in this post and I would also point out to the good sir that I have not read sufficient of his output to judge him with any fairness. But it must be stated that what I have read has not made me think of you as a low cur, which is a full head and shoulders above most! Sorry if that counts as being damned by feint praise. Now, if you will excuse me... let us get back to the original subject... Buy my stuffs!
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:54:00 - [79] Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions?
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:08:00 - [80] Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. Originally by: Bad Bobby What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Seems like that would complicate determining how to payout dividends. MDD
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:37:00 - [81] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. Originally by: Bad Bobby What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Seems like that would complicate determining how to payout dividends. MDD Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. My suggestion was that although we would launch with a floating cap we would still close to investment at the end of the launch. I'm simply suggesting that the launch is done without a hard fixed cap and when we close to new investment after however many days we will either have 70b, 140b, 210b or 280b and we go with what we have. Dividends would not be complicated in any way.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:40:00 - [82] Edited by: Roguehalo on 19/06/2009 16:42:17 Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Assuming rock solid management and a watertight security setup I doubt you would have much trouble raising the 280b in one go. If the bpos hold(or even increase) their value then the projected returns look very generous. Obviously this would be a high risk venture mainly due to future imponderables(CCP nerfbat etc) so the wider investment base you have the better. Investing in something like this would be a lot more interesting/exciting than just collecting a monthly 3% from wherever so I foresee huge interest in it. Anyway good luck in this venture and hopefully I can earn enough iskies of my own to invest a bit by the time this comes to fruition edited spelling
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:47:00 - [83] I think set out an initial goal of 140B. If you don't make the reservations up to 70B get in. If you make 140B those reservations make it, etc.. Get the security and BOD nailed down and it should work.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:51:00 - [84] Quote: Assuming rock solid management and a watertight security setup I doubt you would have much trouble raising the 280b in one go. I also agree on this. You know, this is the Project Of A Lifetime (in EvE at least). This is going to be an huge operation, at this point billions become irrelevant. Slam together the above Cosmoray's names and people won't stop before 1, 10, 100 or even 1000B. Drop the fears, slam the sail to full and embrace the challenge! Offtopic: Quote: Not to call you out as unethical, it's just rarely a topic you dive into Sadly for me, I am the worst kind of "idiot": the one who in case of being unable to repay a big bond in time, would waste thousands of euros in GTCs to pay it back in time
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:57:00 - [85] Originally by: Roguehalo Investing in something like this would be a lot more interesting/exciting than just collecting a monthly 3% from wherever so I foresee huge interest in it. Interesting perhaps, exciting no. Setup a large deathstar, 1 or 2 advanced labs, 2 or 3 corp hangars, fill the labs and hangars with as much fuel as they will hold. Once every 3 weeks log in and spend 3 minutes fueling the tower. Oh I suppose you could always wash the windows on the labs or polish the ammo in the guns Speaking of which on a more serious note. Defenses!!!! There is still the missing ammo bug where ammo in the guns will sometimes disappear after DT. Any thoughts on this as it is a major obstacle if a wardec comes to light?
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:05:00 - [86] You made me check out my turrets to see if they had ammo. They are good so Just check the guns when you refuel shrugs I think the plan should start at a bang. 140bil at a minimum. Can 280bil capital be raised on these boards?
blunter FireTech	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:23:00 - [87] Well Bobby this thread may be the beginning of an epic player run project indeed. Although I rarely find myself in the market discussion section, a thread like this gains some attention especially seeing all the recent Titan news and action. The biggest nerf I could see happening to the Titan is a bigger version of it being deployed for some ridiculous reason.. and even then that'll probably boost the BPC market. It would be quite an honour for any involved to be a trustee on such a long term and interesting project as this. I guess the big question is where do I send my iskies :) -Blunt
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:34:00 - [88] Given the prohibitive cost involved with actually making these things and that the market has naturally progressed towards a very decentralized setup in both capital and super caps, I don't forsee the BPC crashing that hard. Alliances are loathe to put so much capital into a single resource and risk the possibility of getting the wrong spy in the wrong location and walking off with the bank. Only your largest ones such as Kenny (well not so much anymore), Goons, etc.. likely have any sorta of central production houses. And even then I would wager that most of them are staffed by single man crews, alts of very old and trusted directions or CEOs of pets. As such the demand curve has shifted so that purchases of the BPC are made, components are either sourced externally through contractors (self plug), or limited building to again only the most trusted individuals. This way your manufacturing of the ship itself can at a whims notice be moved without much issue. If you loose the system you're only out the ship itself..a blow yes but not nearly how hard hitting loosing access to the actual BPO itself. The process is also obfusicated by the fact that you really don't have a huge constant supply chain. So if anything there might be a small reduced price on the BPC, but I don't ever see it dipping below 11b unless Titans get the worst nerf bat there possible is. Yes they can change the tide of a battle true, but they are still a giant PITA to fly and train for.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:47:00 - [89] I'm excited for the opportunity that it presents the secondary market as was noted before. Any plan that can give some matter of assurance of future payments like this allows for better stock trading
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 20:00:00 - [90] Quote: I don't think you get it. That display was fair warning to EVE & CCP. If titans / DDs aren't fixed, we (and others too most likely) will do it in combat...repeatedly...until even your bad posting is drowned out by the screams of broken and podded pubbies. From a goon about the carrier that was DDed to death by a titan fleet Linkage So now apparently the goons are trying to get titans changed by demonstrating how overpowered they are. It brings new light to this discussion when the people that own the most Titans want them nerfed.

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