EVE Search - Discussion: Titan BPO Copying

All Channels

Market Discussions

Discussion: Titan BPO Copying

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:40:00 - [1] Introduction In recent months we have seen two attempted Titan BPO copying ventures. The first was in the form of a 3% Bond proposed by Ricdic, which was cancelled prior to launch as a result of real-life issues. The second was in the form of a 90% profit share IPO proposed by skilzrulz, which has been slowly gathering funds but has an as yet uncertain future. In addition to these two public ventures, EBANK has an ongoing Titan BPO copying venture using multiple BPOs that is at a fairly mature stage. I wish to discuss the subject of Titan BPO copying with a view to discovering if there is popular MD support for a third attempt at a public offering in this field and what shape that attempt should take. Up For Discussion Titan BPOs cost 67.5 billion isk to buy from NPC sell orders. The setup costs for a Titan BPO copying operation will be at least 70 billion. It takes just under 110 days to make a single run Titan BPC, with good skills and equipment. It takes just under 127 days to add one level of ME to a Titan BPO, with good skills and equipment. A BPO being copied or researched need not be at risk from destruction or theft from external forces. There is a possibility for the infrastructure used to support the BPO copying to be sabotaged by external forces. This can result in the cancellation of ongoing copying or research operations with all progress lost. The best solution to this risk of external sabotage is for the corp and its infrastructure to remain anonymous. There is a possibility of internal theft or sabotage. While there are no absolute solutions to these risks, there are ways to mitigate them. ... more to come ... So What Do I Want From You? At this point, discussion only! I've listed some points that I'd like to discuss/debate/check and I'll be adding more over the comming days. Any sensible suggestions are welcome. I am not interested in isk, reservations or anything of that sort. I am not even at the stage where I am confident that I will take this venture beyond the discussion phase, or that I would be the person running the operation if it were to progress to an actual launch.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:44:00 - [2] I'd buy 1 share
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:51:00 - [3] So setup is 2.5 billion after the BPO is bought? EBANK is obviously a primary competitor, any idea what their bpos are researched to? I would think that with limited knowledge by others, the installation where research is going on could be kept quiet leaving only the off wall chance of someone knocking down high sec towers for lulz finding your tower. This would be a single man corp process or fly under the flag of Ugly Toys? How would security of the installation be handled?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.18 16:57:00 - [4] IMHO, a single man corp located in a research alliance is all that would be needed to obfuscate it for the most part, since unless anyone in the alliance other than you knows where the system is located you'll never know about the tower and as far as anyone else is concerned a single man corp in a research alliance is nothing more than a research alt researching whatever BPO at the research alliances tower chains. I think ZZZ or NER is a perfect candidate for it.
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:05:00 - [5] Bobby as I am currently in the midst of preparing a large IPO for the sole purpose of Titan BPCs to run in conjunction with my current IPO I can say there is a good market for this venture. Currently I maintain a 125b public IPO strictly for BPCs which has been doing very well and currently stocks are selling for way above what their true value is. Traded value is currently averaging 38.5m per stock while true value is currently 32.6m per stock as of this morning. I believe the market for Titan BPCs is there, however as many players increase their capital and more and more ISK is generated in EvE this market will continue to dwindle. Currently the market is healthy, but two years from now there will be a LOT of competition. Risk management for this venture, for either of us, is a major issue due to the amount of ISK involved. Investors will demand security and is such in EvE this can be hard to do without a proper lock down procedure. Should you wish to go forward with this operation it is something I am willing to do by either privately funding it myself or through an IPO launched here in conjunction with my current IPO. I already have assets in place to handle and secure this venture as well as protect it if needed. I also have many many characters with max skill and cybernetics V + research implants which can be dedicated to the project. Please let me know which direction you wish to take this or if you would simply like to discuss options on my ventrilo server.
Viktor Raybach	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Bad Bobby Introduction I wish to discuss the subject of Titan BPO copying with a view to discovering if there is popular MD support for a third attempt at a public offering in this field and what shape that attempt should take. I believe that your involvement would make obtaining the public confidence and funding far more likely than any other current offering, or future offering without security. Originally by: Bad Bobby Titan BPOs cost 67.5 billion isk to buy from NPC sell orders. Would this potential venture be seeking one Titan BPO or more than one for diversification/insurance against future changes to flavour of the month titans? Originally by: Bad Bobby It takes just under 110 days to make a single run Titan BPC, with good skills and equipment. It takes just under 127 days to add one level of ME to a Titan BPO, with good skills and equipment. This has to be offset against a realistic expectation of profit so investors can average it out over a monthly return. As such while the duration to see any return is lengthy, if the profits are there then it will be a much-reduced factor.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:39:00 - [7] Originally by: LaVista Vista I'd buy 1 share You cheap bastard. Originally by: Saehta So setup is 2.5 billion after the BPO is bought? At least. The minimum required would be a large faction tower with a few labs, comprehensive defences and a fuel stockpile. I think 2.5 billion is a resonable low-end price for that. More could easily be spent on it however. Originally by: Saehta EBANK is obviously a primary competitor Possibly, but they could also be a client, supplier or business partner too. Originally by: Saehta any idea what their bpos are researched to? I believe that I know more than is public knowledge when it comes to the EBANK operation due to contact and discussions on this matter with past and present EBANK representatives. I am not willing to disclose anything that has been shared with me on this basis. However, you can see from the public sales threads that EBANK have been selling ME 0 copies. Originally by: Saehta This would be a single man corp process or fly under the flag of Ugly Toys? Definately not under Ugly Toys, that would be a little too obvious!
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:44:00 - [8] Originally by: LadyOfWrath Bobby as I am currently in the midst of preparing a large IPO for the sole purpose of Titan BPCs to run in conjunction with my current IPO I can say there is a good market for this venture. Currently I maintain a 125b public IPO strictly for BPCs which has been doing very well and currently stocks are selling for way above what their true value is. Traded value is currently averaging 38.5m per stock while true value is currently 32.6m per stock as of this morning. I believe the market for Titan BPCs is there, however as many players increase their capital and more and more ISK is generated in EvE this market will continue to dwindle. Currently the market is healthy, but two years from now there will be a LOT of competition. Risk management for this venture, for either of us, is a major issue due to the amount of ISK involved. Investors will demand security and is such in EvE this can be hard to do without a proper lock down procedure. Should you wish to go forward with this operation it is something I am willing to do by either privately funding it myself or through an IPO launched here in conjunction with my current IPO. I already have assets in place to handle and secure this venture as well as protect it if needed. I also have many many characters with max skill and cybernetics V + research implants which can be dedicated to the project. Please let me know which direction you wish to take this or if you would simply like to discuss options on my ventrilo server. Think this would fit very well with what your doing already BUT I would actually be hesitant to support it unless somone else or even multiple other parties start lockign down somme of your BPO's. Even 1 Titan BPO would put you at the 200bil isk + what ever access you have within EBANK. Even if I did this I would want them locked down by a 3rd and maybe even a 5th party for security purposes. ----- Bobby I don't know about the profit part of it, but again same thing as above for you, for this IPO to get off the ground I would want to see the bpo's locked down with atleast 1 other person if not 3-5 people.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria IMHO, a single man corp located in a research alliance is all that would be needed to obfuscate it for the most part, since unless anyone in the alliance other than you knows where the system is located you'll never know about the tower and as far as anyone else is concerned a single man corp in a research alliance is nothing more than a research alt researching whatever BPO at the research alliances tower chains. I think ZZZ or NER is a perfect candidate for it. What do you see as the advantages of putting the corp in a research alliance in comparison to being a stand-alone corp? Presently, I favour a stand-alone corp for this but that is definately a subject that I'd like to discuss further.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:51:00 - [10] Originally by: eVaLF Bobby I don't know about the profit part of it, but again same thing as above for you, for this IPO to get off the ground I would want to see the bpo's locked down with atleast 1 other person if not 3-5 people. You are preaching to the choir here. This is a subject I'd like to discuss in detail, there is not a snowball's chance in hell that I would consider launching this without securing it up to the eyeballs.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:56:00 - [11] Originally by: Viktor Raybach Would this potential venture be seeking one Titan BPO or more than one for diversification/insurance against future changes to flavour of the month titans? That would depend on a great many factors, not least of which would be the level of support and interest from the MD community. There is little point in me looking for 280 billion for a 4 BPO venture if I would have trouble raising 70 billion for a 1 BPO venture. But I personally like the idea of having all 4 flavours and staggering their production so that 1 BPC is produced each month.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Kazzac Elentria IMHO, a single man corp located in a research alliance is all that would be needed to obfuscate it for the most part, since unless anyone in the alliance other than you knows where the system is located you'll never know about the tower and as far as anyone else is concerned a single man corp in a research alliance is nothing more than a research alt researching whatever BPO at the research alliances tower chains. I think ZZZ or NER is a perfect candidate for it. What do you see as the advantages of putting the corp in a research alliance in comparison to being a stand-alone corp? Presently, I favour a stand-alone corp for this but that is definately a subject that I'd like to discuss further. Increases the possible number of contact points, increasing the work load required to track a tower down. Add in steps to mitigate searches via contract history by either using courier our direct trade and you all but eliminate the possibility of someone figuring out who is who. The single man research corp would also have to rent offices at the various alliance tower locations as well, increasing the work load to find out whats what a little more. Again, its really not that hard to find out who is who and what is what and where is where, so you should take as many steps as possible to lengthen the time needed for that goal to minimize the possibility to all buy the most determined.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:05:00 - [13] Originally by: LadyOfWrath Should you wish to go forward with this operation it is something I am willing to do by either privately funding it myself or through an IPO launched here in conjunction with my current IPO. I already have assets in place to handle and secure this venture as well as protect it if needed. I also have many many characters with max skill and cybernetics V + research implants which can be dedicated to the project. Please let me know which direction you wish to take this or if you would simply like to discuss options on my ventrilo server. At present I want to restrict this to a discussion on how best to set up this operation on a more theoretical basis. You are not the first person to speak to me about possible funding and/or partnership options, but I'd rather leave those matters until a later stage in the process.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Bad Bobby What do you see as the advantages of putting the corp in a research alliance in comparison to being a stand-alone corp? Presently, I favour a stand-alone corp for this but that is definately a subject that I'd like to discuss further. Increases the possible number of contact points, increasing the work load required to track a tower down. Add in steps to mitigate searches via contract history by either using courier our direct trade and you all but eliminate the possibility of someone figuring out who is who. The single man research corp would also have to rent offices at the various alliance tower locations as well, increasing the work load to find out whats what a little more. Again, its really not that hard to find out who is who and what is what and where is where, so you should take as many steps as possible to lengthen the time needed for that goal to minimize the possibility to all buy the most determined. My thinking was to use direct trades (or a suitable alternative) to prevent any link between the copying corp and the publicly traded BPCs. Once the BPC is safely away from the copying corp then things can be handled more publicly, with either forum based or contract based sales. However, that is an entirely different matter from the "alliance or corp" question. Is there an advantage from being in an alliance as opposed to a corp, assuming that the same obfuscations are used to protect each alternative? I can see some, like a higher war-dec cost and the possibility of other revenue streams being derived from the research alliance, but I'm not sure that either of these are a net gain from a security point of view.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:26:00 - [15] Ok, I'm going offline now. Sorry I have not responded in great detail to any of the posts thus far, but I am short on time today. Rest assured that I am not in a hurry with this and I intend to discuss each and every issue in great detail before we even come close to the subject of an actual proposal. I expect to be bombarded with in-game mails and convos on the subject too, but I'd like to keep as much of the discussion public as possible, so don't be suprised if I ask you to post evemailed questions or some/all of our convo content here.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.06.18 18:38:00 - [16] Edited by: SencneS on 18/06/2009 18:41:14 Speaking from an investors point of view with personal knowledge of a rather large Titan BPC operation already in motion. Here is an honest opinion of Titan BPC runs. It's profitable for the work load, but has MANY pitfalls, some of which are completely unavoidable! Even at it's fastest, copies take almost 4 months, so Dividends are few and far between. This would be a very long term return on investment. Even one BPO takes almost two years to break even. This is defiantly something people should be aware of, and it's only going to get worse as more people enter into things like this. Just look at the Carrier BPCs on contract, some sell for as much as 40mil. If you take the same ratio, 27.5:1 you get 2.5b ISK or there about. This has to do with what I've mentioned on another thread. BPCs need to be cheap enough to attract people from not just buying the BPO. With Titan's that gap can be much smaller but no one is going to sell BPCs for 30b. The fine line between finding what produces will want vs buying their own BPO is difficult. BPCs are a flat layout of cost and should be included into the cost of the production. At some point in time they are going to hit a wall and say.. meh I can just buy my own and take depreciate the BPO to compete with the competition. BPO owners/produces can sell Titans below the cost of BPC manufactures build price, sure they take a smaller profit but there is a defined line with BPCs vs BPOs. The very second BPO produces realize this the BPC market may collapse, or they start demanding cheaper BPC prices. The CCP Factor - The current usage for Titans (Home defenders) could literally change at the drop of a hat. Any change to Titans apart from a Buff would instantly kill the demand. Being on of the only ship not to get a nerf and the growing popularity of Cynojammer Guardians makes 0.0 hostile take overs ever more difficult. That could change at a moments notice. BPO Resale - Although I would imagine it's doable the high ticker price means you very a very small audience. It's a real commitment to buy a Titan BPO and if you need to sell it you better hope you've researched to make it sell. Long copy/research time means more susceptible to be cancelled. You mentioned yourself that sabotaging the POS would cancel the job, imagine how frustrating you'd get if a fleet of 50 battleships attacks the highsec POS every 100 days. BPCs sell, kits are better. BPC Kits sell much easier then BPCs of just the Titan, Some are even starting to do this. The "value add" is very much limited by literally what Kit you sell with it. This means an extra shell out of more capital just to be better/more appealing then "the other guy". The good news! For the moment it appears alliances would rather buy BPCs and spend the ISK on making Titans very owning the BPO. So the 10-15b price tag appears to be the magical number in which Alliance manufactureing leaders are consider OK, this is doable. Money for nothing... The work load is so little anyone with hardly any eve activity can do it. Even outsourcing POS Fuel is easy to do. Stock holders will rejoice!! The Stock will actually hold value because there is a time frame to score a dividend. At any point in time the shock holder could literally need cash and sell off the stock, or use it as collateral in loans etc. Now that it's that is over with, I might consider buying some shares, I'll have to see how much I have left after I am finished getting my BPOs.. No not Titans
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.18 19:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Kazzac Elentria IMHO, a single man corp located in a research alliance is all that would be needed to obfuscate it for the most part, since unless anyone in the alliance other than you knows where the system is located you'll never know about the tower and as far as anyone else is concerned a single man corp in a research alliance is nothing more than a research alt researching whatever BPO at the research alliances tower chains. I think ZZZ or NER is a perfect candidate for it. What do you see as the advantages of putting the corp in a research alliance in comparison to being a stand-alone corp? Presently, I favour a stand-alone corp for this but that is definately a subject that I'd like to discuss further. Increases the possible number of contact points, increasing the work load required to track a tower down. Add in steps to mitigate searches via contract history by either using courier our direct trade and you all but eliminate the possibility of someone figuring out who is who. The single man research corp would also have to rent offices at the various alliance tower locations as well, increasing the work load to find out whats what a little more. Again, its really not that hard to find out who is who and what is what and where is where, so you should take as many steps as possible to lengthen the time needed for that goal to minimize the possibility to all buy the most determined. Pros of being in a research corp: Wardecs are a lot more expensive. Cons of being in a research alliance: Even with the labs set to corp use only they will still show up when someone goes to select an assemblyline!!! I've found quite a few corps with private POSes this way. You can't install jobs there, but still visible. It wouldn't take long with alliances as big as NER and Zzz before someone spotted stray labs they couldn't use and went to check it out or started spamming alliance mail with "Whats up the the labs in XXX system, I can't use them!!!"
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:11:00 - [18] i think it is a very good idea, and something i can see succeed if you are behind the wheel. i would suggest that you made a one man corp that only you knew the identity of, and 1 very trusted auditor. you would then ofcourse be forced to promise us, not to die or quit eve. im not rerseving anything, just want to say, that depending on returns, id see myself invest from 5B to 20B in this, if i knew a month or two in advance ofc. since im not that liquid atm!
Scott Ryder Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:39:00 - [19] Edited by: Scott Ryder on 18/06/2009 20:45:52 How much interest would a titan BPO copying operation give the investors? 110 days of copy time Ill estimate 40 billion yearly profits (unless the market will get tighter, It is very likely that the titan bpc market will get tighter, if you want me to explain, I will) And finally, you are handling alot public isk if im not mistaken. Will this Bpo be locked down with E-bank or something safe? You could get hit by a bus in the same way everyone else is at risk of getting hit by a bus.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:34:00 - [20] you can squezze 45B out of this yearly imo. so that means it would take 1+ year to pay itself back. not that bad imo..
Scott Ryder Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Ji Sama you can squezze 45B out of this yearly imo. so that means it would take 1+ year to pay itself back. not that bad imo.. If the current prices are stable or will rise youre statement is true. I cant say they will drop further, but I am afraid they will.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:08:00 - [22] With good T2 BPO's taking well over 2 years to pay back a Titan BPO is not a bad investment. I think you could probably raise enough money to finance a couple of BPO's if the security is handled correctly. Best way I can think would be set up a corp with a Board of Directors (say around 5 people). These folks are responsible for locking down the BPO for copying. Put corp in research alliance, give 1 person role to setup/cancel jobs. Create second holding corp for payment of divs. I would invest in a SECURE venture, and also would be happy to sit on a BOD.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Breaker77 It wouldn't take long with alliances as big as NER and Zzz before someone spotted stray labs they couldn't use and went to check it out or started spamming alliance mail with "Whats up the the labs in XXX system, I can't use them!!!" The thing is though, so long as you put this tower in BFE the chances are pretty low that you'll find it. You have to at least be in the same region, so pick a region that the alliance does not cover. In NER for instance I know off the top of my head at least 3 regions you could use for it, and ZZZ is caldari heavy so pretty much anywhere in Minnie or Gallente space would likely work. Any choice has a chance that with enough work someone will find it and wonder WTF, but you put enough legwork into cloaking the activities, location, etc.. and stack it into an alliance where the wardec fee is up there. It just adds another layer is all. I think BB covered the biggest hurdle, that being how do you cover transaction between the research alt and sales alt. Direct trade being the best option.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I think BB covered the biggest hurdle, that being how do you cover transaction between the research alt and sales alt. Direct trade being the best option. The only way that is traceable is through the full API key and even then it would take someone paying attention to see a player trade for 0.00 in the journal. I'm not sure how deep auditors check into this sort of stuff. I do know that I use direct player trades between me and my alts when I'm at a station with no corp office. I really have no idea of how common it is, but still something that might link the 2 characters together.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I think BB covered the biggest hurdle, that being how do you cover transaction between the research alt and sales alt. Direct trade being the best option. The only way that is traceable is through the full API key and even then it would take someone paying attention to see a player trade for 0.00 in the journal. I'm not sure how deep auditors check into this sort of stuff. I do know that I use direct player trades between me and my alts when I'm at a station with no corp office. I really have no idea of how common it is, but still something that might link the 2 characters together. Someone like me, I look. Part of my process is to create a group in EMMA, load the key and the first place I go is the journal log. I flip to player donations first and make note of the average amount if any and make note of large transfers and then I go to player trades and look for oddities like zero transactions. In both bases the names I noted go into EVE search, a custom query against my EMMA database, and then eventually I'll get in game and see about contract history, employment toon age, etc... So an auditor, at least one making sure to cross all possible links would catch it... so its possible that someone so curious that had the key might, but not likely.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:21:00 - [26] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 19/06/2009 00:21:14
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 03:05:00 - [27] Originally by: cosmoray Best way I can think would be set up a corp with a Board of Directors (say around 5 people). These folks are responsible for locking down the BPO for copying. ... Create second holding corp for payment of divs. Similar to what I was thinking: I would create a SECRET corp for the POS and an alt to be CEO of that corp. This alt would train the required science skills, including cybernetics V, for maximum copy speed and run the copy jobs. I would create a PUBLIC corp for the shares and payment of dividends and an alt to be CEO of that corp. This alt would require practically zero skills. Shares in the SECRET corp would be issued to a set of trustees, such that lockdown votes could be managed by them. Trial account alts would be created by these trustees and added to the SECRET corp so that in the event of a bus related issue they could initiate votes and liquidate or take over the operation as required. The research alliance part I think is a matter for further debate, I can see both sides of the argument and I am as yet unconvinced either way.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 03:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria So an auditor, at least one making sure to cross all possible links would catch it... so its possible that someone so curious that had the key might, but not likely. Unless we can think of a good reason to do so, I wasn't intending to share the API key(s) associated with this with anyone. Should we decide there is a need for the API key(s) to be shared then I would suggest it only go to one or more of the trustees involved in the lockdowns as they would already have access to the critical information and would therefore pose little additional risk.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 03:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Kazzac Elentria So an auditor, at least one making sure to cross all possible links would catch it... so its possible that someone so curious that had the key might, but not likely. Unless we can think of a good reason to do so, I wasn't intending to share the API key(s) associated with this with anyone. Should we decide there is a need for the API key(s) to be shared then I would suggest it only go to one or more of the trustees involved in the lockdowns as they would already have access to the critical information and would therefore pose little additional risk. Agreed, more or less just thought vomiting the entire process out.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 03:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Scott Ryder Edited by: Scott Ryder on 18/06/2009 20:45:52 How much interest would a titan BPO copying operation give the investors? 110 days of copy time Ill estimate 40 billion yearly profits (unless the market will get tighter, It is very likely that the titan bpc market will get tighter, if you want me to explain, I will) And finally, you are handling alot public isk if im not mistaken. Will this Bpo be locked down with E-bank or something safe? You could get hit by a bus in the same way everyone else is at risk of getting hit by a bus. I could make various claims or predictions about the likely profits from this venture, but I think the facts of the matter is we don't know for certain. It could be 40 billion per year per BPO, it could be more, it could be less. Ultimately it will be up to each potential investor to decide what they believe the return will likely be and invest or not on that basis. I am certain that there will be plenty of opinions on the likely return, both informed and otherwise, posted in this thread to help or hinder the decision making process! Does my suggestion in the posts above satisfy you with respect to lockdown and anti-bus measures? Originally by: Scott Ryder Originally by: Ji Sama you can squezze 45B out of this yearly imo. so that means it would take 1+ year to pay itself back. not that bad imo.. If the current prices are stable or will rise youre statement is true. I cant say they will drop further, but I am afraid they will. I would cautiously assume that the trend in prices will be a steady drop over time with occasional spikes and troughs caused by the usual nerf/buff/fotm/political/demographical effects. Given that expected return on investment in MD has followed a similar trend of steady decline and might be expected to carry on doing so, the two effects could cancel eachother out to some degree. By this I mean that you may end up making a poor rate of return by today's standards but a good rate of return by future standards.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 04:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Breaker77 Pros of being in a research alliance: Wardecs are a lot more expensive. Not that much more expensive, definately not prohibitively so. We're talking 50m isk vs 2m isk. Someone intending to destroy a hi-sec deathstar is going to invest a lot more in the operation than 50m, such that the war-dec fee is of little relevance. As someone who has been a member of multiple research alliances for years, I can say that war-decs against research alliances are extremely common. But there is a big difference between a war-dec and an actual threat to the operation. My thinking is that there are a lot more small corps owning hi-sec POSes than there are small corps within research alliances owning hi-sec POSes and the level of anonymity afforded by the former is greater than the latter. Also, a war-dec against a research alliance could be a potential threat, but could be nothing. It would be very difficult to guage. You can be certain of frequent 'false alarms'. On the other hand a war-dec against a stand-alone corp would be much easier to guage, you know they are comming for you specifically and you know that serious preperations are needed.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.19 04:45:00 - [32] Comments 1. The lockdown proposal looks sound with BOD owning shares in secret corp. 2. How does mechanism of trial accounts for BOD's work exactly? 3. Happy with corp placement in or out of research alliance. As long as the BPO is locked down the principle asset won't be lost. Financing(some musings) Too gain further trust on the amount of sums we are talking about you could set up an EBANK sweep account (no interest), and ask for NO withdrawal rights. The ISK could be sent directly to that account.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:22:00 - [33] Originally by: cosmoray 1. The lockdown proposal looks sound with BOD owning shares in secret corp. 2. How does mechanism of trial accounts for BOD's work exactly? I haven't used the trial accounts approach before, so it's definately something I want checked and discussed, but this is how I believe it would work: Each trustee will hold shares in the SECRET corp with an active character, be it their main or otherwise. This is important for visability as, in general, the more effort involved in checking these things the less often they will be done. Each trustee will create a trial account alt and join the SECRET corp. These alts will be given roles in the corp sufficient for them to initiate any votes/actions that might be needed in the case of a bus related incident. These accounts will then be allowed to lapse so that no additional cost is incurred in their maintainance. In the event of a bus related incident one or more of these accounts will be subbed so that they can take the neccessary action. Obviously the trustees will have to be trusted by all involved to at least the same level as myself as they will have access to information and corp roles that would allow them to sabotage the operation. The lockdown measures will protect the investment from a rogue trustee in the same way that they will protect the investment from a Very Bad Bobby. Originally by: cosmoray Financing(some musings) Too gain further trust on the amount of sums we are talking about you could set up an EBANK sweep account (no interest), and ask for NO withdrawal rights. The ISK could be sent directly to that account. It's an interesting idea. But ultimately, won't I gain access to either the isk for purchasing a Titan BPO or the BPO itself at some point in the process? I can understand something like this being used in the case of a multi-BPO operation so as to restrict the exposure to one BPO worth at a time. But is there any workable method for preventing me from being able to steal either isk or a BPO at some point? Suggestions are definately welcome!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:23:00 - [34] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/06/2009 05:24:21 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Kazzac Elentria So an auditor, at least one making sure to cross all possible links would catch it... so its possible that someone so curious that had the key might, but not likely. Unless we can think of a good reason to do so, I wasn't intending to share the API key(s) associated with this with anyone. Should we decide there is a need for the API key(s) to be shared then I would suggest it only go to one or more of the trustees involved in the lockdowns as they would already have access to the critical information and would therefore pose little additional risk. Agreed, more or less just thought vomiting the entire process out. i think one trusted auditor should have access to the API. And combining that with a trusted BOD... is pure win imo TMPI
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:28:00 - [35] Edited by: Bad Bobby on 19/06/2009 05:31:42 Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: cosmoray Financing(some musings) Too gain further trust on the amount of sums we are talking about you could set up an EBANK sweep account (no interest), and ask for NO withdrawal rights. The ISK could be sent directly to that account. It's an interesting idea. But ultimately, won't I gain access to either the isk for purchasing a Titan BPO or the BPO itself at some point in the process? I can understand something like this being used in the case of a multi-BPO operation so as to restrict the exposure to one BPO worth at a time. But is there any workable method for preventing me from being able to steal either isk or a BPO at some point? Suggestions are definately welcome! More on this point: I can see that, potentially, we may be able to use a supremely trusted individual or group to receive the isk, purchase the BPO(s) and oversee the lock down before I can gain access to any of it... but I'm not sure on how. Ideas? [EDIT] Also: Sorry if I am being dense today, but I've been up since 3am in the morning so my brain might as well be in someone else's body right now for all the good it is doing me.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:50:00 - [36] well i think with the right group it wont be a problem. set up the BOD Investors transfer ISK to 1 trusted member of the BOD. BOD then buys the BPO's BOD then moves the BPO's BOD then lockdown the BPO's BOD then goes into hibernation, untill a vote is needed. Dont think its complicated tbh. Again this all depends on the people in the BOD and Bobby. With the right people behind the wheel and the right numbers this will launch easely.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Ji Sama i think one trusted auditor should have access to the API. And combining that with a trusted BOD... is pure win imo I am not opposed to the idea of sharing the API for the account used to run the SECRET corp with a trusted auditor. They may or may not be one of the trustees as well, there are arguments for and against that when it comes to potential conflicts of interest. But I am opposed to doing so without a good reason and I'd like to hear from people about what the justification for this would actually be. My thinking is that there is relatively little to be gained from the API, in this case, and what has to be gained has to be weighed against any increased risk and effort. I suppose the main benefit would be that, if I was pulling a fast one, we may be able to figure that out earlier with an API key... but I'm not sure what kind of scam I could pull that would be detected this way. Essentially, I'm thinking that if I didn't bother to copy the BPOs or if I tried to make off with the copies that could be traced this way... but I expect that the API key could only be used to detect a "long con" rather than a "smash and grab" scam. I could still invalidate the shared API key and make off into the sunset with a Titan BPC, for example. So my questions are: What will an API key held with an auditor give us that we cannot get without it? How valuable are any such advantages? What viable scams will it prevent and what scams will it not? Are any additional risks introduced by this?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:52:00 - [38] Also... imo... members of the board should be chosen very carefull, the location of the prints must remain top secret.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:56:00 - [39] I think its a very good idea to have the auditor sit on the BOD. also. as justification i only want to add this, i think maximum transparency and the good will of the BOD are good choices. But your right, an API audit wont do jack ****. And holds zero security. 1: Trust and Transparency 2: I value the above fairly high tbh 3: It wont prevent a scam. 4: There are additional risk introduced, this can be mitigated by having the auditor join the BOD
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Ji Sama set up the BOD Investors transfer ISK to 1 trusted member of the BOD. BOD then buys the BPO's BOD then moves the BPO's BOD then lockdown the BPO's BOD then goes into hibernation, untill a vote is needed. So we would be exchanging myself as "the single most likely point of failure" for the BOD in a number of these steps. We would need to look at who we trust enough to take on that role. Also, I'd like to know opinions on this: Can I be trusted with 70b isk of your money at one time? Because if the answer is "yes", the need for the BOD to be responsible for these steps is somewhat diminished and it becomes a matter of detailed cost:benefit analysis. If the answer is "no", then these steps are more easily justified.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:27:00 - [41] tbh its not the case of risk or default. you can be trusted with 70B you dont need to do an API audit But that is exactly the reason you should do it. for members of the board, i recomend people like. shar, hexxx, athre, caleb, kazzac, evalf? the last 3 is totally biased btw... and the above list is at the least subjective. TMPI
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Ji Sama 4: There are additional risk introduced, this can be mitigated by having the auditor join the BOD Does it really? Because I can see benefits from having the auditor be independent of the trustees. The trustees can sabotage and, with sufficient co-operation between them, steal. Would having the auditor as an outsider policing the trustees be better than having them be a member of the trustees? Are we talking about additional risk either way? The total number of involved parties would most likely be the same either way and the information available to them would be the same either way. The key difference is that the auditor would not have the power to intervene, only blow the whistle. Is that better, or worse? You will all have to excuse my insistance on playing devils advocate with all the subjects we have up for discussion here, I'm looking at this both as a potential 'IPO proposer' and with my more usual 'IPO critic' role. I'm expecting to get some help on this from other members of the "established cartel" at some point, because this idea needs a lot more criticism from a lot more angles before we can even start writing a proposal.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:39:00 - [43] i actually think you bring some fair and valid points, and yes it would indeed be "better" overall for this venture, if the auditor could play a watchdog role. but it also has to be put up against the fact that the less people that know, the better. ie. i dont see this board getting to big, since keeping a lid on the size, you minimize risk to exposure! But perhaps 3 very trusted members of the BOD, and 1 very trusted auditor would be an acceptable risk! From a personal point of view, it would be safest IMO if you agreed to not dying IRL, and not quit EVE + didnt involve anyone else but yourself. and i wouldnt worry about getting the leet md'ers in here :D its a timezone thing, its morning here in europe! TMPI
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:55:00 - [44] Originally by: Ji Sama tbh its not the case of risk or default. you can be trusted with 70B you dont need to do an API audit But that is exactly the reason you should do it. Now that is an argument I like. Originally by: Ji Sama for members of the board, i recomend people like. shar, hexxx, athre, caleb, kazzac, evalf? the last 3 is totally biased btw... and the above list is at the least subjective. Shar and Hexxx I would agree with pretty much without reservation. It's all about the 'price' of a person's reputation. I get the feeling that Shar and Hexxx have a price so high as to be more or less unreachable. I guess that their principles could hold to the point of irrationality. The others I would need to have sold to me and more importantly to the potential investors. No offense meant to any of them, they have all probably figured out that I'm pretty paranoid anyway!
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:00:00 - [45] Originally by: Ji Sama From a personal point of view, it would be safest IMO if you agreed to not dying IRL, and not quit EVE + didnt involve anyone else but yourself. I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I cannot agree to those terms as they rely of circumstances beyond my control. It is my intention to be here until the EVE servers get switched off, but my mind and body may not last that long. Originally by: Ji Sama and i wouldnt worry about getting the leet md'ers in here :D its a timezone thing, its morning here in europe! I know! I'm GMT timezone too, I've been up since 3am! Grrrr...
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:05:00 - [46] well tbh i am fairly certain i know when ill die :D but i understand why you wont go there.!
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Ji Sama well tbh i am fairly certain i know when ill die :D but i understand why you wont go there.! I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan died in 1227.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:14:00 - [48] i agree. that when push comes to shove, its the investors percieved image of the BOD and you that only matters. shar and hexxx, has reached a reputation that is unreachable, i dont see anyone come near them ever in EVE... i understand your paranioa. its a very thin line you have to walk, because choosing the wrong person on the BOD or as auditor could undermine the credibility. also the reason i think this should only be a few very trusted members. i would recomend from a PR perspective to avoid people that might draw any uneeded attention and noise to the venture. (thats people like me etc :P)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:16:00 - [49] Quote: You will all have to excuse my insistance on playing devils advocate with all the subjects we have up for discussion here, I'm looking at this both as a potential 'IPO proposer' and with my more usual 'IPO critic' role. I'm expecting to get some help on this from other members of the "established cartel" at some point, because this idea needs a lot more criticism from a lot more angles before we can even start writing a proposal CDS risk of default payment formulas tell us that the longer the time the (much) more dangerous an operation becomes. Furthermore, in a similar pattern, more points of failure raise failure rate in a worrying non linear way. Just have Chribba handle most of this stuff imho, he's the most simple and trusted solution available. Having several controllers and whatsnot is a nice exercise but imho it brings conflicts of interest and "friends of friends". Quote: I guess that their principles could hold to the point of irrationality And they are not alone :D And it has to be so, if you involve some highly influential EBank people in a business where your interest may be seen as overlapping / clashing on their own projects.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:20:00 - [50] i call bs vv... since bobby has to trust them, it will be friends of friends, no matter what. TMPI
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 07:58:00 - [51] Noticed the ""?
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 08:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha more points of failure raise failure rate in a worrying non linear way. Just have Chribba handle most of this stuff imho, he's the most simple and trusted solution available. Having several controllers and whatsnot is a nice exercise but imho it brings conflicts of interest and "friends of friends". My thoughts on the matter is that it has to be multiple people, 5 probably being the magic number, in order to remove a major point of failure. It's a case of it being the lesser of two evils. Laying the responsibility for securing this venture at any one person's door is a risk in and of itself no matter how reputable that person is. The reason why I favour 5 people (myself included) is that the SECRET corp shares would be divided up so each of us hold 200 shares and it would require 3 of us to force through an unlock vote, in the case that all 5 trustees voted. In the case that (for the sake of argument) 2 of the trustees were on holiday, on a break from eve, indisposed or having a good sulk in a corner somewhere, we can still get the job done with the 3 remaining trustees while still having a decent level of 'resistance' to any monkey business. By contrast, do it just with me and Chribba and all I have to do is wait for him to be 'otherwise engaged' and I can slip through an unlock vote and disappear into the sunset with all of my investor's hard-earned iskies. Alternatively, if Chribba was the only shareholder and the only party with voting rights, then we could be effectively crippled by him going missing. Neither of those alternatives are acceptable to me and they should not be acceptable to potential investors either.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 09:02:00 - [53] Originally by: Ji Sama since bobby has to trust them, it will be friends of friends, no matter what. It has to be people I trust, that much is true, but it does not have to be my friends. In fact I would very much prefer it not to be people I have strong links with. Shar and Hexxx, for example, are not people that I know well. We've exchanged words in forums, channels and possibly in the odd convo in the past but that is the limit of it. We have never done business together and we could not discribe eachother as friends in any honesty. Also, I would trust both of them to be critical of me even if we were to become friends in the future. This, as well as many more obvious things, makes them ideal candidates in my eyes.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 10:02:00 - [54] Ok, so discussion on security elements is rather dry and the level of opposition is far too low. This thread is not keeping me sufficiently entertained! So, let's get a little more aspirational and bring in more elements to discuss... How? How much? How soon? How will it end? Here's one way: 280 billion isk, 4 Titan BPOs, 1 mother of a deathstar. 2 BPOs, the ones that are considered to be the flavour of the month, get put into copying from the outset. The other 2 BPOs, the ones that are considered to be less desirable, get put into ME research from the outset. ...fast forward 110 days... 2 Titan BPCs pop out of the labs and are put up for sale. The BPOs are then put into ME research. ...fast forward 17 days... 2 Titan BPOs pop out of the ME labs and are put back in for copying. ...fast forward 110 days... 2 Titan BPCs pop out of the labs and are put up for sale. The BPOs are put into ME research. The two other BPOs pop out of the ME labs and are put back in for copying. The routine continues on a 237 day cycle until we reach a suitably desirable level of ME on all the BPOs and then we change the cycle to repeated 110 day copying cycles. With the BPCs being produced at increasing levels of ME we will have some hope of retaining a competitive edge, but also we increase the value of the locked down BPO asset so that if/when the time comes to sell up the BPOs we should have little trouble finding a buyer and should get a good return from the sale. But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So, rip it apart chaps! Change it from a half baked scheme into an ironclad plan...
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 10:33:00 - [55] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/06/2009 10:35:45 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/06/2009 10:33:55 Quote: Shar and Hexxx, for example, are not people that I know well. We've exchanged words in forums, channels and possibly in the odd convo in the past but that is the limit of it. We have never done business together and we could not discribe eachother as friends in any honesty Neither you nor JI got what "friends of friends" is used for, maybe it's unique to my country. Friends of friends is a compound form for "less than 100% reliable people claiming being friends of your friends to gain a position they should not be entitled to have". Aka "friends by proxy". They would leverage and slip in undue things using the common friend as key to breach in the trust chain. Being in a situation to (unwillingly of course) bring in "friends of friends" is an unlikely but possible scenario with wildly unpredictable results (see, you are not the only one being mega-super-prudent and diffident ). Quote: How? How much? How soon? How will it end? Here's one way: 280 billion isk, 4 Titan BPOs, 1 mother of a deathstar. 2 BPOs, the ones that are considered to be the flavour of the month, get put into copying from the outset. The other 2 BPOs, the ones that are considered to be less desirable, get put into ME research from the outset. ...fast forward 110 days This is what I tend to do with other BPOs (in an infinitely smaller scale of importance of course). Quote: After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? Imho the big question is "how can I predict math with 1 year of forecast, when math is only part of the equation?" The demands for titans to be nerfed are still here to stay, Goons muscling a whole fleet of them demonstrated that those ships are as powerful as ever but can be stacked in ways the developers may reconsider in the middle term. That is a term compatible with the time frame to have researched those BPOs. Furthermore, even with zero CCP intervention, will the defeat of Kenzoku impact on Titans production? And how much? And in positive or negative terms? Those imho are the possible "holes" in this plan.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 10:57:00 - [56] good thougts vv. i really cant discuss any specifics about titan bpc prices... imo they go for around 15-20B each? but i have never dealt in this, nor ever produced any of this. so ill just stay out from here on. its very vulnerable to nerfs imo. and there is a chance that it could fall apart.. a break even might even only cover half if not a quarter of the total venture. looking forward to seeing this getting ripped apart.... or whatever... also looking forward to seeing some real numbers on this. /ji out
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.19 11:04:00 - [57] I kinda ignored some of this thread tbh, so if I am missing somthing slap me in the head and point me to the right post please, maybe I will read it all then. I don't understand why this would need all these people involved. 4 people + bad lock down the bpo's. That means 3 of the 5 or more would have to scam to walk away wiht what? 20bil, maybe 80bil if you get 1 of each. Basicly one trusted player joins with you, locks the BPO down and distributes 200 shares to each person involved, this way not each person would even need an alt to join your corp. And soon as one person contacts another person to scam, this would put him in potentially a very bad situation if the person he contacts says no. I just see you adding more and more people to the list of who should do what, meaning less and less profits in the end on a BPO that may drop in value as it is.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 11:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Imho the big question is "how can I predict math with 1 year of forecast, when math is only part of the equation?" The demands for titans to be nerfed are still here to stay, Goons muscling a whole fleet of them demonstrated that those ships are as powerful as ever but can be stacked in ways the developers may reconsider in the middle term. That is a term compatible with the time frame to have researched those BPOs. Furthermore, even with zero CCP intervention, will the defeat of Kenzoku impact on Titans production? And how much? And in positive or negative terms? Those imho are the possible "holes" in this plan. Edit again: Basically, what are the contingency plans to deal with a possible nerf or a visible drop in Titans demand? Yes, these are valid concerns and ones I share in one degree or another. Personally, I think the current power level of these vessels was entirely predictable when the stats were first released. I don't have a big problem with them as they stand, but I could easily see how they might be 'improved' so that they can have a more positive effect on EVE conflict than they currently do. But obviously, my opinion on this is of little consequence as it is CCP that have hold of the reins. Yes, Titans can be nerfed, buffed or changed. None of those eventualities is likely to reduce the value of a ME researched BPO or BPC to zero, so while returns may diminish I think it highly unlikely that they will stop completely. More importantly, the BPOs themselves are our get-out clause as if BPC sales becomes a waste of time the researched BPOs will still have a sale value which I believe will be sufficient to protect our capital if nothing more. I think recent events, particularly mass Titan action from Pathetic Legion (Hai gais o/) will do no harm to the un-nerfed demand for Titans. The defeat of Kenzoku does not spell the defeat of the Titan either. I believe that Titan consumption is on an upward trend and as anti-Titan tactics (and tools) get refined and improved I think Titan consumption is likely to reach even more epic proportions. Yes, an act of CCP is quite likely to change the Titan landscape at some point in the future. We don't know what and we don't know when. But I am personally confident that Titans are here to stay and Titan usage will survive any but the most ridiculous nerfs. Of course, CCP are capable of ridiculous nerfs too, so while I think the risk is relatively slight I can in no way disagree with anyone who feels the risk is too much for them to invest in a scheme like this. In many ways, with this venture I am considering a bet on the future of Titans. But I believe I'm betting on the favourite whereas others will think I'm betting straight up on number 13.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 11:38:00 - [59] Originally by: eVaLF I kinda ignored some of this thread tbh, so if I am missing somthing slap me in the head and point me to the right post please, maybe I will read it all then. I don't understand why this would need all these people involved. 4 people + bad lock down the bpo's. That means 3 of the 5 or more would have to scam to walk away wiht what? 20bil, maybe 80bil if you get 1 of each. Basicly one trusted player joins with you, locks the BPO down and distributes 200 shares to each person involved, this way not each person would even need an alt to join your corp. And soon as one person contacts another person to scam, this would put him in potentially a very bad situation if the person he contacts says no. I just see you adding more and more people to the list of who should do what, meaning less and less profits in the end on a BPO that may drop in value as it is. Slap! The intention would be for 4 people (trustees) plus myself to hold 200 shares each for lockdown vote control and those 4 people to each have an inactive trial account alt in the corp in case of my being hit by a bus. That's just 5 people involved in the venture and 4 of them will be taking the back seat in it all while I do 90%+ of the work. Essentially: Originally by: eVaLF for this IPO to get off the ground I would want to see the bpo's locked down with atleast 1 other person if not 3-5 people. What was your objection again?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 12:24:00 - [60] To be perfectly honest, as much as I am a fan of verifying things, I don't think any keys should be released for this sort of thing and anyone who does the locking down should also do so on an account that cannot be traced back to their main. Trial account for instance. It just adds another layer of exposure that could ruin the gravy train. On the actual profit ventures, I think the ideal of having all four prints is enticing but you'll find that two of those four are going to move much easier than moving 1 of each every cycle. Personally I would focus on Caldari and Gallente with an extra print in Amarr
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.19 12:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Bad Bobby I get the feeling that Shar and Hexxx have a price so high as to be more or less unreachable. I guess that their principles could hold to the point of irrationality. I've never had anyone describe it quite like that before. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:26:00 - [62] Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So when does the titan nerf factor into this? I mean after all you should have heard about the FLEET of titans taking down 1 carrier just with DD's. Now imagine if 500 carriers had been on the grid... People have been complaining for awhile thats Titans are an "I Win" button and coupled with the fact that everybody and their brother can get their hands on one, the nerfbat will be heading that way. So add that into the potential risks. What happens if CCP nerfs Titans?? Not only will the bpcs stop selling, but good luck finding a buyer for the BPO as it would be practically worthless. Discuss....
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Breaker77 So when does the titan nerf factor into this? I mean after all you should have heard about the FLEET of titans taking down 1 carrier just with DD's. Now imagine if 500 carriers had been on the grid... People have been complaining for awhile thats Titans are an "I Win" button and coupled with the fact that everybody and their brother can get their hands on one, the nerfbat will be heading that way. So add that into the potential risks. What happens if CCP nerfs Titans?? Not only will the bpcs stop selling, but good luck finding a buyer for the BPO as it would be practically worthless. Discuss.... I've already said my piece on exactly these points somewhere on page 2. But ultimately my view is that a well handled rebalance of Titans may well reduce their power but not their popularity, overpowered is one thing but useful and fun has a whole lot more longevity and I expect that is where Titans are headed next. Obviously CCP could make an utter hash of it all and there are plenty of precidents for that, so ultimately this venture will always be based on a gamble on what CCP does or does not do with Titans and Titan counters in the future. But as I said before, I think I'm betting on the favourite in this race. What is your money on?
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:46:00 - [64] I share Breaker's concerns: CCP's history with the nerf bat includes a poor batting average. See also ECM, minmitar, speed, and wormhole loot. In all of these cases, I think popularity was impacted by the nerf. I respect that you may not be a FOTM player, but my belief is there is a prevalance of them making up the customer base for an operation like this.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 13:52:00 - [65] It is entirely possible that they can be rebalanced so they are not an "I Win" button. However as you hinted at, CCP seems to not have much of a clue on how to do that properly. If the only thing they were to change would be to rebalance DD's then I think Titans would still be in demand. Now if CCP were to make DD's useless then they really are nothing more than an oversized battleship/commandship combined into one and I could see them perhaps only being used as a status symbol such as Chribba's Veldatar. The 65 billion ISK question: Do you think CCP could find a way to fix them without turning them into what Black Ops have become if they did rebalance/fix them? I'd place 1 billion into a venture such as this, even with CCP's track record of screwing it up *While I am not aware of any upcoming changes/nerfs/ect.. The possibilty is always there.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Dzil I share Breaker's concerns: CCP's history with the nerf bat includes a poor batting average. See also ECM, minmitar, speed, and wormhole loot. In all of these cases, I think popularity was impacted by the nerf. I respect that you may not be a FOTM player, but my belief is there is a prevalance of them making up the customer base for an operation like this. Yes, I'm not a FOTM player. I love the ECM "nerf" for the amount of extra fun and the skill requirement it has added to being an ECM pilot, I love the new Blaster Falcon and the new low price tag on them (temporary while people adjust I expect). I love minmatar ships, them being my favourites in the sub-BS class with the exception of certain Amarr ships (read: Vengeance) that I loved long before Amarr became FOTM. I fully support the speed changes and the need for even tougher dicisions when it comes to your mid slots. Also, I've made fistfulls of isk out of wormholes throughout the past changes and I expect to do well out of the future changes. But I am a player-skill orientated EVE player who seeks fresh challenges at every turn. I am someone who believes that "adapt and overcome" is a way of life and I have dedicated myself to it. I welcome each new change as a challenge and I try to ensure my corp mates and fleet members do the same... but yes I understand that the 'popular' breed of EVE players are something totally different and I do understand that nerfs often reduce mass popularity. Aside form the specific "nerfs" you have mentioned here, the specifics of which I broadly support, there have been many changes that have massively improved the popularity of different ship classes. Do you remember when Assault Frigates were shunned? Now they are bread and butter for a lot of fast moving fleets. Do you remember the Interdictor changes? Are they really any less essential to 0.0 pew-pew now, flying coffins or not? My point and my defence for Titans is that CCP are capable of good changes, it may not be the rule but there is still a good case history for it. Yes, mass popularity of ships has less to do with 'real' power and fun and more to do with 'easy' power and I-WIN buttons applied to substandard opponents. I'm making no secret of that fact that I'm backing a horse here, it could end up in the glue factory... that I accept, but it could end up as a prize stud. Place your bets now please. Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:23:00 - [67] Edited by: Saehta on 19/06/2009 14:25:47 Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So, rip it apart chaps! Change it from a half baked scheme into an ironclad plan... Assuming minimums of 15 bil per ME0 print and 18bil per ME1 print (pulled numbers out of my arse based on 15-20 bil per print 110 days - 30bil 237 days - 36bil 347 days - 36bil 102 bil return on 283 bil investment For year 2 I would have at least a 10% reduction of profits from saturation or potential changes but the ME would be 2-3 for that year EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Breaker77 The 65 billion ISK question: Do you think CCP could find a way to fix them without turning them into what Black Ops have become if they did rebalance/fix them I also like the Redeemer. Yes, it could be better, but some ships are destined to be nieche because player skill and fleet organisation is needed to get the best out of them. That's not an asset that the majority of players and fleets can draw upon and I don't believe it could or should be any different. But yes, I get your point and I agree with you. CCP could screw up the Titan totally. I'm betting on them not doing that and I'm certain to be working to help them do the right thing with them regardless of whether that is as a Titan pilot or as a Titan IPO manager. I don't expect to be alone on that either.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Saehta Edited by: Saehta on 19/06/2009 14:25:47 Originally by: Bad Bobby But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? So, rip it apart chaps! Change it from a half baked scheme into an ironclad plan... Assuming minimums of 15 bil per ME0 print and 18bil per ME1 print (pulled numbers out of my arse based on 15-20 bil per print 110 days - 30bil 237 days - 36bil 347 days - 36bil 102 bil return on 283 bil investment For year 2 I would have at least a 10% reduction of profits from saturation or potential changes but the ME would be 2-3 for that year Also remember that in year 2 we have the option of sticking with the level of ME we have reached and doubling our copy output instead, if we see that as being the best choice. Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:32:00 - [70] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity. Is that forbidden by CCP? Using current high sec dreads for combat, I mean.
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:40:00 - [71] Yes. Jump drive ships are pretty much banished to low/null sec. The few high sec ones remain on the graces that their owners keep them as collectors items, not combat ships. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:41:00 - [72] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta EDIT: As far as nerfs go its a risk that will just have to be thrown in with possible scamming trustees or a freaking lucky dreadnaught finding the golden calf. Work with low return protential from the start and it should help offset losses in case of a nerf It's going to be a VERY lucky dreadnaught that sieges my Titan copying POS and gets away with it in the face of my POS gunning prowess AND CCP intervention against a hi-sec dread engaging in aggressive activity. Is that forbidden by CCP? Using current high sec dreads for combat, I mean. Yes. Ask Chribba if you don't believe me. He won't even shoot at a shuttle that is begging to be on a "Chribba's Veldnaught killmail" and promissing not to petition him!
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:44:00 - [73] Quote: Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value. It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Dzil Quote: Sorry that my arguments on this point are less logic and more emotion, but since I cannot hope to see the future there is a limit to what I can righteously say in the defence of the Titan's long term value. It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though. A student of Aristotle, I see. Just out of interest, how do you rate me in the rhetorical trio?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:59:00 - [75] Quote: It's the internet. Pathos > Ethos > Logos. Good luck though A peculiarity of business in EvE is that the above may be read as a palindrome, where you: - start with Logos. A lot of it . - are challenged and answer in the name of Ethos - end up with a dirty scam and then you fuel the Pathos!
Dzil Caldari Space Whales is SRS BIZNESS	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:00:00 - [76] Normally much more factual - the emotional charge was a bit out of character for you :) But you're not often in the position of asking/potentially asking for money on these forums. Guess I'd say Logos > Pathos > Ethos. Not to call you out as unethical, it's just rarely a topic you dive into. But who knows, you can't really judge by a series of forum posts :P Myself - if I'm not overderailing your thread? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings Out of stock till 6/19/09
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:06:00 - [77] More Comments 1. Don't see need of auditor if you have 5 trusted players on BOD 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. 3. Just keep it simple, raise the cash buy the prints, BOD locks down. Need 3 to unlock sell prints. Pay divs with holding corp. BOD I would trust any 4 (+ you) from some of the following names on forum: Hexx Shar Kwint Ray Cosmoray Kazzac eVaLF AC155 Athre Couple of other posssible, but some are also involved in locking down 10's of Bills. I would also want any BOD member to be heavily in vested in venture (multiple B's)
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:16:00 - [78] Originally by: Dzil who knows, you can't really judge by a series of forum posts :P Fair comment. Originally by: Dzil Myself - if I'm not overderailing your thread? The last half page is pretty much dominated by thread derail, I can't really complain since I've followed the flow of conversation right off the rails and well into the ditch... It's a slow day at work, or at least that's my excuse. But I would referr the honourable gentlemen to the first quote in this post and I would also point out to the good sir that I have not read sufficient of his output to judge him with any fairness. But it must be stated that what I have read has not made me think of you as a low cur, which is a full head and shoulders above most! Sorry if that counts as being damned by feint praise. Now, if you will excuse me... let us get back to the original subject... Buy my stuffs!
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 15:54:00 - [79] Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions?
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:08:00 - [80] Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. Originally by: Bad Bobby What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Seems like that would complicate determining how to payout dividends. MDD
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:37:00 - [81] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. Originally by: Bad Bobby What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Seems like that would complicate determining how to payout dividends. MDD Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. My suggestion was that although we would launch with a floating cap we would still close to investment at the end of the launch. I'm simply suggesting that the launch is done without a hard fixed cap and when we close to new investment after however many days we will either have 70b, 140b, 210b or 280b and we go with what we have. Dividends would not be complicated in any way.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:40:00 - [82] Edited by: Roguehalo on 19/06/2009 16:42:17 Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: cosmoray 2. I would always just stick with Caldari & Gallente BPO's. 140B is pretty high financing anyway. What about the possibility of doing a launch with a floating cap? By this I mean: We start with a 70b target for investment. Once we raise 70b we lock in all those investors and open up another 70b. We keep going in blocks of 70b until we reach the overall 280b cap or until the available investment dries up part way through a 70b block. A partially filled 70b block would have it's reservations cancelled. Opinions? Assuming rock solid management and a watertight security setup I doubt you would have much trouble raising the 280b in one go. If the bpos hold(or even increase) their value then the projected returns look very generous. Obviously this would be a high risk venture mainly due to future imponderables(CCP nerfbat etc) so the wider investment base you have the better. Investing in something like this would be a lot more interesting/exciting than just collecting a monthly 3% from wherever so I foresee huge interest in it. Anyway good luck in this venture and hopefully I can earn enough iskies of my own to invest a bit by the time this comes to fruition edited spelling
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:47:00 - [83] I think set out an initial goal of 140B. If you don't make the reservations up to 70B get in. If you make 140B those reservations make it, etc.. Get the security and BOD nailed down and it should work.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:51:00 - [84] Quote: Assuming rock solid management and a watertight security setup I doubt you would have much trouble raising the 280b in one go. I also agree on this. You know, this is the Project Of A Lifetime (in EvE at least). This is going to be an huge operation, at this point billions become irrelevant. Slam together the above Cosmoray's names and people won't stop before 1, 10, 100 or even 1000B. Drop the fears, slam the sail to full and embrace the challenge! Offtopic: Quote: Not to call you out as unethical, it's just rarely a topic you dive into Sadly for me, I am the worst kind of "idiot": the one who in case of being unable to repay a big bond in time, would waste thousands of euros in GTCs to pay it back in time
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:57:00 - [85] Originally by: Roguehalo Investing in something like this would be a lot more interesting/exciting than just collecting a monthly 3% from wherever so I foresee huge interest in it. Interesting perhaps, exciting no. Setup a large deathstar, 1 or 2 advanced labs, 2 or 3 corp hangars, fill the labs and hangars with as much fuel as they will hold. Once every 3 weeks log in and spend 3 minutes fueling the tower. Oh I suppose you could always wash the windows on the labs or polish the ammo in the guns Speaking of which on a more serious note. Defenses!!!! There is still the missing ammo bug where ammo in the guns will sometimes disappear after DT. Any thoughts on this as it is a major obstacle if a wardec comes to light?
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:05:00 - [86] You made me check out my turrets to see if they had ammo. They are good so Just check the guns when you refuel shrugs I think the plan should start at a bang. 140bil at a minimum. Can 280bil capital be raised on these boards?
blunter FireTech	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:23:00 - [87] Well Bobby this thread may be the beginning of an epic player run project indeed. Although I rarely find myself in the market discussion section, a thread like this gains some attention especially seeing all the recent Titan news and action. The biggest nerf I could see happening to the Titan is a bigger version of it being deployed for some ridiculous reason.. and even then that'll probably boost the BPC market. It would be quite an honour for any involved to be a trustee on such a long term and interesting project as this. I guess the big question is where do I send my iskies :) -Blunt
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:34:00 - [88] Given the prohibitive cost involved with actually making these things and that the market has naturally progressed towards a very decentralized setup in both capital and super caps, I don't forsee the BPC crashing that hard. Alliances are loathe to put so much capital into a single resource and risk the possibility of getting the wrong spy in the wrong location and walking off with the bank. Only your largest ones such as Kenny (well not so much anymore), Goons, etc.. likely have any sorta of central production houses. And even then I would wager that most of them are staffed by single man crews, alts of very old and trusted directions or CEOs of pets. As such the demand curve has shifted so that purchases of the BPC are made, components are either sourced externally through contractors (self plug), or limited building to again only the most trusted individuals. This way your manufacturing of the ship itself can at a whims notice be moved without much issue. If you loose the system you're only out the ship itself..a blow yes but not nearly how hard hitting loosing access to the actual BPO itself. The process is also obfusicated by the fact that you really don't have a huge constant supply chain. So if anything there might be a small reduced price on the BPC, but I don't ever see it dipping below 11b unless Titans get the worst nerf bat there possible is. Yes they can change the tide of a battle true, but they are still a giant PITA to fly and train for.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:47:00 - [89] I'm excited for the opportunity that it presents the secondary market as was noted before. Any plan that can give some matter of assurance of future payments like this allows for better stock trading
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.19 20:00:00 - [90] Quote: I don't think you get it. That display was fair warning to EVE & CCP. If titans / DDs aren't fixed, we (and others too most likely) will do it in combat...repeatedly...until even your bad posting is drowned out by the screams of broken and podded pubbies. From a goon about the carrier that was DDed to death by a titan fleet Linkage So now apparently the goons are trying to get titans changed by demonstrating how overpowered they are. It brings new light to this discussion when the people that own the most Titans want them nerfed.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.19 20:21:00 - [91] Something tells me the Titan BPC prices are gonna drop in about 7 months.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.06.19 20:38:00 - [92] Titan BPO research copy is a logical and smart thing to do. Allows huge amounts of isk to be invested extremely passively with decent returns; even better than T2 BPO's. This means it is a terrible idea counter intuitively: too many people will enter the market and the ROI will crash within the year. Also, the DD is broken as hell, it was used to kill a cap recently. The day someone uses them to kill caps in real combat (its coming, sooner or later) is the day CCP starts (if they haven't already) thinking of ways to keep the titan relevant while stripping out the DD, and thats a ton of risk (upside if they end up making it more useful somehow, but, I'm guessing downside is more likely). That all said, if the returns are high enough right now it might be worth it just on the short/medium term profits even if the long term outlook is gloomy.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 22:18:00 - [93] My alt will be ready to carry out the Titan BPO copying with maxed skills and implants in 14 days, so that is the timetable for discussion and the earliest possible launch for this venture. I'll be able to get a standings-fixed corp sorted out in that time too. Anyway, on the subject of Trustees: Who from Cosmo's "approved list" is willing to consider such a role? Originally by: cosmoray I would trust any 4 (+ you) from some of the following names on forum: Hexx Shar Kwint Ray Cosmoray Kazzac eVaLF AC155 Athre If we are looking at a 90% profit share for investors and a 10% profit share for administrators, divided as 6% for me and 1% each for the 4 Trustees, then we've got what I think is a workable reward structure. Yes, we would expect some if not all of the trustees to invest in the venture too.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 22:28:00 - [94] Id be investing, but likely no more than a bil, I just can't have much capital tied up for so long at that return rate.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.19 22:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Bad Bobby My alt will be ready to carry out the Titan BPO copying with maxed skills and implants in 14 days, so that is the timetable for discussion and the earliest possible launch for this venture. I'll be able to get a standings-fixed corp sorted out in that time too. Anyway, on the subject of Trustees: Who from Cosmo's "approved list" is willing to consider such a role? Originally by: cosmoray I would trust any 4 (+ you) from some of the following names on forum: Hexx Shar Kwint Ray Cosmoray Kazzac eVaLF AC155 Athre If we are looking at a 90% profit share for investors and a 10% profit share for administrators, divided as 6% for me and 1% each for the 4 Trustees, then we've got what I think is a workable reward structure. Yes, we would expect some if not all of the trustees to invest in the venture too. Count me in if needed.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.19 22:32:00 - [96] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Id be investing, but likely no more than a bil, I just can't have much capital tied up for so long at that return rate. Nonetheless, the question of your willingness (or not) to be a trustee is still valid.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.19 22:34:00 - [97] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Id be investing, but likely no more than a bil, I just can't have much capital tied up for so long at that return rate. Nonetheless, the question of your willingness (or not) to be a trustee is still valid. Of course, all it takes is an alt trial account. Its not like it would be a lot of work on any trustee part
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.06.20 04:23:00 - [98] Originally by: Robacz Something tells me the Titan BPC prices are gonna drop in about 7 months. Aye. How many rich folks saw this thread and immediately plunked down their own quarter trillion for a set of BPOs to run ME on for a year as an almost-no-effort investment? The actual effort required to jump on this bandwagon is even less than was required to jump on the datacore bandwagon (a la DATAC). It's not a huge market, so just one or two people doing so probably threatens BPC prices significantly in the medium term.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.06.20 04:38:00 - [99] Originally by: Thoraemond How many rich folks saw this thread and immediately plunked down their own quarter trillion for a set of BPOs to run ME on for a year as an almost-no-effort investment? I forgot I might be able to answer my own question!: Titan BPO sales report (Assuming they are sold only by the four main Navy corporations.) Avatar Blueprint (67.50 GISK): last transaction 2009-05-26 01:57 Erebus Blueprint (65.25 GISK): last transaction 2009-06-17 09:41 Leviathan Blueprint (63.00 GISK): last transaction 2009-06-10 21:45 Ragnarok Blueprint (60.75 GISK): last transaction 2009-05-20 02:09 So none purchased after this thread was initiated.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.06.20 04:58:00 - [100] I'd probably be ok being a part of this. <Amarr's signature>
Titans 4U	Posted - 2009.06.20 07:09:00 - [101] Public share holding corp and its CEO alt created.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 07:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Titans 4U Public share holding corp and its CEO alt created. Confirming that this is me.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 09:42:00 - [103] It looks like we've got a decent plan to be getting on with and the security elements have been set up. I've spoken to AC155, who is involved with EBANKs own Titan operation and he has agreed to come on board as a Trustee. I would like Kazzac Elentria and Proton Power on board, as they both have valuable knowledge of related industries and have been trusted with large sums in the past. Kazzac's auditing knowledge will also be valuable to our investors in that I expect him to be more than capable of catching any scam. The other two hopefulls have already been mentioned, but as I haven't had the oppertunity to ask them yet we shall have to wait and see. In order to avoid clashing too much with EBANKs own Titan BPC output we will timetable the start of actual operations at 30 days from now. The launch will occur soon, once I've got the list of Trustees final. There will be a good length of time for people to dig out their iskies and invest. I'll be looking at 1m isk per share with no minimum or maximum requirement so as to allow people at all levels to invest. The corp that will be issuing the shares will be "Titans For You" with "Titans 4U" as my CEO alt. The alt and corp doing the copying will remain a closely guarded secret known only to me and the four Trustees, he's a totally anonymous research alt who will have maximum copy skills polished off in 14 days and all vital related skills in 30 days, futher training to allow him to make full use of the 'spare' POS facilities for non-Titan activities will come later. Rather than worrying about using EBANK to control the invested isk and release it to me for BPO purchases, I'm thinking that we should just sell off the shares in 70b isk phases (prior to the start date) which will be used to purchase and lock down the BPOs. Once the lockdown of one BPO is done and confirmed by the trustees, we can then take on the next 70b and so on. This will limit your exposure to a potential scam on my part to 70b at a time. I believe this is sufficient as we can be certain that at various points in the operation I am going to have to handle unlocked BPOs so investors are going to have to accept 70b of 'trust' in me by neccessity. I will, however, never allow myself to handle more than one unlocked BPO at any time and I will not allow myself to handle unlocked BPOs at the same time as our valuable BPCs if it can possibly be avoided. We will be aiming at 280b, but as said we will collect in 70b phases so that if investment dries up before 280b we will be happy with 1,2 or 3 BPOs rather than 4. The shares and votes to create them will be done after we take reservations in order to avoid the creation of excess shares (since they can't be destroyed). We're looking at 280,000 shares maximum. 90% of profits (that's after fuel costs and office rental) will be issued as dividends as and when profits are forthcomming. So you can expect payouts every 4 months on average. There will be a thread for the IPO that will be used to keep all investors up to date with the progress of the venture and the schedule for payouts as it evolves. 10% of profits will be used to pay for 'staff'. That being 6% for me and 4% between the trustees, I've discussed the options regarding which Titan BPOs to purchase and in which order of priority. Although the idea of buying multiples of FOTM Titans was tempting, I'm thinking that futureproofing against future rebalances and shifts in racial preference by buying one of each is overall the best option. The first two BPOs will be the first to be copied and the second two will be the first to recieve ME research, such that the FOTM BPCs will sell themselves easily on current popularity while the less favoured BPCs will sell themselves on having ME 1 from the outset. I'll be buying the follwing BPOs in this order: Leviathan (Caldari) Erebus (Gallente) Avatar (Amarr) Ragnarok (Minmatar) This plan is a draft, comments/questions are welcome.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.20 10:02:00 - [104] looks nice bobby, if you get hexxx and shar on this, your good to go :D good luck with this venture, and depending on returns i will be investing 5-20B
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.20 10:29:00 - [105] I would buy 1 share just because I think Bad Bobby is hilarious and his avatar looks sort of angry. I think its because he is balding. Can I be a token on the board of directors :) I am guessing you could get a 1-2 titan BPOs if you had the right security, I would like to see a profit sharing venture as well. The board of directors for the corp responsible would be a nice touch fot added security, however, someone would still need to buy and transport the BPO and would have at least 68B in their pockets... I am guess this sort of ISK is trusted amongst many of the people that you listed. I am guessing you have the deathstar and mercenaries if needed to defend the research/copy POS? With a high profile venture, I would worry that people might amass a large fleet just for this. ~GV
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.06.20 10:31:00 - [106] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 20/06/2009 10:33:57 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus ~GV Too late. I will deal with you later though. Black Sun Empire
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:14:00 - [107] Originally by: Bad Bobby The corp that will be issuing the shares will be "Titans For You" with "Titans 4U" as my CEO alt. The alt and corp doing the copying will remain a closely guarded secret known only to me and the four Trustees, he's a totally anonymous research alt who will have maximum copy skills polished off in 14 days and all vital related skills in 30 days, futher training to allow him to make full use of the 'spare' POS facilities for non-Titan activities will come later. Will this potential future income/profit also be included in the Titan BPC venture costs/profits? It sounds like a good idea, and could, possibly, be run as a separate enterprise renting out the facilities owned by the Titan BPC venture (with appropriate safety/security in place) rather than including it in the Titan BPC venture. Just wondering as someone is bound to say "it was not in the original business plan" -- DesuSigs
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I would buy 1 share just because I think Bad Bobby is hilarious and his avatar looks sort of angry. I think its because he is balding. He looks angry because he's bad, obviously. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus someone would still need to buy and transport the BPO and would have at least 68B in their pockets... I am guess this sort of ISK is trusted amongst many of the people that you listed. All of the trustees have previously had large volumes of isk in their care. I've already run a successfull 9b IPO which closed after about a year of operation, having paid out excellent (10% average) returns to it's investors during it's lifetime. I still have 9b invested with me in the Ugly Toys 4% Bond and I have several tens of billions worth of other people's assets locked down in my corps securing various IPOs and MD ventures. I also continue to have tens of billions worth of others peoples assets entrusted with me by tennants in my various Research & Industry corps on a continuous long-term basis. I believe I can be trusted with a 70b isk BPO, for the purpose of buying, moving and eventually selling but you can make your own determination on that by deciding if you wish to invest or not. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I am guessing you have the deathstar and mercenaries if needed to defend the research/copy POS? Each Titan BPO costs 67.5b and the extra isk is going to be spent on a deathstar POS and various security measures. Bad Bobby is only my industrial alt. I don't need to hire mercenaries, I am one. One of my mains is the CEO of a small dedicated PvP/Pirate corp that has been responsible for dealing over 90 billion isk worth of enemy combat losses to our foes during our time in Factional Warfare alone, with a corp efficiency of over 89%. That corp has also been responsible for numerous hi-sec POS takedowns and defences all of which have been 100% successfull. They continue to be a fearsome PvP force in low-sec, 0.0 and wormhole piracy. Another of my mains is a Director of another dedicated PvP corp that has been around since 2005, responsible for over 260 billion isk worth of enemy combat losses even by Battleclinic's woefully incomplete records and with a corp efficiency of over 80%. Capable of calling upon hundreds of allied pilots should anything threaten our assets. PvP is what I do, Bad Bobby just makes me the isk to pay for it, so I am very confident when it comes to combat. I'm a skilled and experienced FC too, so organising and leading a defence force is something I have done countless times before. But should all that prove insufficient, I'm quite happy to call in help from my friends elsewhere in eve. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus With a high profile venture, I would worry that people might amass a large fleet just for this. Dispite the formidable combat force I have at my disposal, our best defence is the fact that the Titan copying corp will be anonymous and unkown. It will not be possible for anyone but myself and the trustees to know the exact identity or location of the corp, the alts used or the hi-sec deathstar. So unless a band of determined fighters sets about destroying every hi-sec deathstar in new eden they are unlikely to threaten our assets intentionally. Co-incidental attacks on our assets will be repelled with force proportionate to the risk and with preserving secrecy as a high priority.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:22:00 - [109] Originally by: Marcus Baltar Originally by: Bad Bobby The corp that will be issuing the shares will be "Titans For You" with "Titans 4U" as my CEO alt. The alt and corp doing the copying will remain a closely guarded secret known only to me and the four Trustees, he's a totally anonymous research alt who will have maximum copy skills polished off in 14 days and all vital related skills in 30 days, futher training to allow him to make full use of the 'spare' POS facilities for non-Titan activities will come later. Will this potential future income/profit also be included in the Titan BPC venture costs/profits? It sounds like a good idea, and could, possibly, be run as a separate enterprise renting out the facilities owned by the Titan BPC venture (with appropriate safety/security in place) rather than including it in the Titan BPC venture. Just wondering as someone is bound to say "it was not in the original business plan" Any isk I make with the other facilities within this corp will be shared in the same way as Titan BPC profits. I will not be renting out any part of the Titan copying POS to outsiders for security reasons. All works done withing that POS will be done by dedicated alts specific to this task.
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:51:00 - [110] Originally by: YouGotRipped It is a little too late to replace the "-GV" with "~GV". I will deal with you later though. Really? It cannot be too late, I think it adds a little something extra. I know you like it. Originally by: Bad Bobby He looks angry because he's bad, obviously Why would being bad make him angry? I feel like he would be smiling because he knows how bad he is. I still think itÆs the balding issue. Originally by: Bad Bobby I've already run a successfull 9b IPO which closed after about a year of operation, having paid out excellent (10% average) returns to it's investors during it's lifetime. I still have 9b invested with me in the Ugly Toys 4% Bond and I have several tens of billions worth of other people's assets locked down in my corps securing various IPOs and MD ventures. I also continue to have tens of billions worth of others peoples assets entrusted with me by tennants in my various Research & Industry corps on a continuous long-term basis. I believe I can be trusted with a 70b isk BPO, for the purpose of buying, moving and eventually selling but you can make your own determination on that by deciding if you wish to invest or not. Yes, but 70B is a little more than 9B. Do you think you currently have or ever have had 70B in public funds before? You or the other trustees. I am assuming even with a board of trustees, you would still be the one that would buy it and transport the BPO so why would the board really have any security increase. It provides an answer to the worst case mysterious bus accident and prevents you having more than 70B in your hands, as each one would be locked before you would have money to buy another (I am assuming obviously). The board seems to provide added security in-case of death; I doubt you would care much in this circumstance as you knowà you would be dead. It just seems that in order to invest, people have to at least trust you personally with 70B, so why would a board do anything? Keep you from unlocking all BPOs, in the case of multiple BPO purchases, at once? Seems pretty expensive (4%) for this added benefit Originally by: Bad Bobby I believe I can be trusted with a 70b isk BPO lol, god I would hope so. I agree that this is up to any investor if they think you have default/flight risk or not. The risk of scam seems to go up exponentially as ISK handled goes up. You are BAD bobby, right? -continued-
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:54:00 - [111] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 20/06/2009 11:55:15 Originally by: Bad Bobby Each Titan BPO costs 67.5b and the extra isk is going to be spent on a deathstar POS and various security measures. Bad Bobby is only my industrial alt. I don't need to hire mercenaries, I am one. One of my mains is the CEO of a small dedicated PvP/Pirate corp that has been responsible for dealing over 90 billion isk worth of enemy combat losses to our foes during our time in Factional Warfare alone, with a corp efficiency of over 89%. That corp has also been responsible for numerous hi-sec POS takedowns and defences all of which have been 100% successfull. They continue to be a fearsome PvP force in low-sec, 0.0 and wormhole piracy. Another of my mains is a Director of another dedicated PvP corp that has been around since 2005, responsible for over 260 billion isk worth of enemy combat losses even by Battleclinic's woefully incomplete records and with a corp efficiency of over 80%. Capable of calling upon hundreds of allied pilots should anything threaten our assets. PvP is what I do, Bad Bobby just makes me the isk to pay for it, so I am very confident when it comes to combat. I'm a skilled and experienced FC too, so organising and leading a defense force is something I have done countless times before. But should all that prove insufficient, I'm quite happy to call in help from my friends elsewhere in eve. Dispite the formidable combat force I have at my disposal, our best defence is the fact that the Titan copying corp will be anonymous and unkown. It will not be possible for anyone but myself and the trustees to know the exact identity or location of the corp, the alts used or the hi-sec deathstar. So unless a band of determined fighters sets about destroying every hi-sec deathstar in new eden they are unlikely to threaten our assets intentionally. Co-incidental attacks on our assets will be repelled with force proportionate to the risk and with preserving secrecy as a high priority. A simple: yes, I have experience and the resources to repel even a determined wardec would have sufficed. It was an interesting read though ;). I think your best defense, by far, would be the secrecy of the holding corporation and POS location. I was going to ***** about the constant misspelling of defense (defence?)à and then figured you are probably British. ~GV~ See what I did there YGR? edit: format fail
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.20 11:55:00 - [112] Quote: It will not be possible for anyone but myself and the trustees to know the exact identity or location of the corp, the alts used or the hi-sec deathstar Imho revealing the name of your Titan alt and of the corp is totally unwarranted call for "griefing" or worse and a red flag I'd have preferred not to see (since I'd likely invest). My alt's corp and then POS have been tracked in about 1 day despite total anonimity and not disclosing any name just by investigation by a competent hi sec merc. The FIRST thing to do once you get this started is to make a corp called "pink smelly bunnies" or something and a "Jilly the shoemaker" alt and grant real anonimity.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 12:11:00 - [113] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 20/06/2009 11:57:55 Quote: It will not be possible for anyone but myself and the trustees to know the exact identity or location of the corp, the alts used or the hi-sec deathstar Imho revealing the name of your Titan alt and of the corp is totally unwarranted call for "griefing" or worse and a red flag I'd have preferred not to see (since I'd likely invest). My alt's corp and then POS have been tracked in about 1 day despite total anonimity and not disclosing any name just by investigation by a competent hi sec merc. The FIRST thing to do once you get this started is to make a corp called "pink smelly bunnies" or something and a "Jilly the shoemaker" alt and grant real anonimity. And even then... beware of the behavioural patterns. The corp name and alt name I have made public is nothing to do with the copying, it's just the holding corp for the investment shares. I've tracked people's alts in hi-sec myself on many an occasion, I know how it's done and I know how to prevent it.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 12:20:00 - [114] Incidentally Vaerah is already aquainted with the combat capabilities of one of my PvP corps. I hope you enjoyed the fireworks!
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.20 12:33:00 - [115] While I'm all for creating a good IPO, I see a couple of problems with it. If current Titan BPC prices hold and you don't have any issues with production, investors would probably see a return of ~4%/month, which isn't a whole lot when you compare it to the risks (imho). This IPO is aimed at a long term run time, if you look at initiatives like DATAC, there are a lot of things that could go wrong that are completely outside your control. One of those is that the Titan BPC price could tank so much that any return on the investment would be far to low to continue. Game mechanics might change, prices of the BPOs might change, etc. (This isn't as farfetched as you might think, just look at the prices of GTCs and the end of ghost training that made Datacore farming pretty much unprofitable.) While a BOD might secure the holding, it also creates the possibility of a security leak. A secret only stays a secret when you tell no one about it. Sure you've got a bunch of very trustworthy folks there, it's not the first time we've seen trustworthy people change, and a leak like this doesn't leave an audit trail...
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.20 12:38:00 - [116] leaking is also my biggest concern. ! the 5 members currently presented for the BOD/Audit im sure wouldnt intentionally leak anything, but it can easely happen by accident... (something as simple, as NOT tapping into the right chat window :p) etc. also i hope that we will see returns higher than 4%. last; i think the 3-4 payments per year is realistic.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.20 12:59:00 - [117] Originally by: Ji Sama leaking is also my biggest concern. ! the 5 members currently presented for the BOD/Audit im sure wouldnt intentionally leak anything, but it can easely happen by accident... (something as simple, as NOT tapping into the right chat window :p) etc. also i hope that we will see returns higher than 4%. last; i think the 3-4 payments per year is realistic. 70B investment => 40-45B return a year (with current prices) - operating costs (upkeep of the POS) - 10% for the administrators. Even if you could get a 45B isk a year, you won't hit the 5%/month. I'm not perfect so I might have messed up the math somewhere, so do your own calculations. You might find that the prices will keep for a few runs, but eventually prices will go down, as it does with most things in EVE. Chances are that prices might recover, but I doubt the IPO would survive that long with it's main money maker being with one (type) of product). If the market of the Titan BPCs goes down the drain, chances are that the market for the Titan BPOs will also crumble. I think that if you could sell the BPO in such a situation, you would do so at a loss. And that already not so high return on this IPO would become even less. Sure, there are chances with any IPO, but your putting all your money one one horse (Titan BPCs). The margins are already not to high, not leaving you very much room to work with in leaner times...
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:03:00 - [118] Originally by: Cergorach While I'm all for creating a good IPO, I see a couple of problems with it. If current Titan BPC prices hold and you don't have any issues with production, investors would probably see a return of ~4%/month, which isn't a whole lot when you compare it to the risks (imho). This IPO is aimed at a long term run time, if you look at initiatives like DATAC, there are a lot of things that could go wrong that are completely outside your control. One of those is that the Titan BPC price could tank so much that any return on the investment would be far to low to continue. Game mechanics might change, prices of the BPOs might change, etc. (This isn't as farfetched as you might think, just look at the prices of GTCs and the end of ghost training that made Datacore farming pretty much unprofitable.) While a BOD might secure the holding, it also creates the possibility of a security leak. A secret only stays a secret when you tell no one about it. Sure you've got a bunch of very trustworthy folks there, it's not the first time we've seen trustworthy people change, and a leak like this doesn't leave an audit trail... The risks, while definately present, are unlikely to endanger your initial investment. The board of trustees, lockdown procedures and obfuscation have been put in place for exactly this reason, to make sure your isk is safe from scams, deaths, burnouts and other disasters. ME research on the Titan BPOs will also make it fairly unlikely that we will be unable to sell them for at least the price paid, even post-nerf. If the returns nosedive selling the BPOs will be our get-out. It's also highly unlikey that the NPC price of a Titan will be reduced, the opposite is much more likely. The risks to the return on investment, are more of a factor. This is a long term venture and we can expect to see the returns dwindle over the full turm as we see the market saturate. To some degree this will be mitigated as we see expectations of returns from public companies dwindle at the same time, as we have seen to a tremendous degree over past years. The ME research we will be doing on the BPOs will also generate higher value BPCs over time. We will also be increasing production between year one and year two, most likely, as we complete our ME research and start producing twice as many copies instead, further increasing returns. If Titans are not nerfed into oblivion, we could see the ME researched BPOs being worth a fair bit more than NPC price and we could see an additional return (at liquidation) due to this. A return of 4 percent per month, as has been suggested, is reasonable to expect once things get going. Obviously with copies being produced every 4 months this will be rolled up into a bumper quarterly payout. As much as there are risks of returns dwindling there is also potential for good returns if CCP hold off on Titan nerfs or rebalance them into a form that still holds appeal. A security leak may result in the location of our POS being compromised. The most that can occur from this is the loss of partial research/copying results and the loss of our deathstar. This would be a set back for our profits but nothing more. A new secret corp could be created, new deathstar built and work continue in short order.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:10:00 - [119] Originally by: Cergorach 70B investment => 40-45B return a year (with current prices) - operating costs (upkeep of the POS) - 10% for the administrators. Even if you could get a 45B isk a year, you won't hit the 5%/month. I'm not perfect so I might have messed up the math somewhere, so do your own calculations. your math looks fine imo. but the initial investment (the BPO's) will not loose all its value, when times come and im sure it will, liquidating the IPO will also yield a net return. so you might get 65B over 1+ year in return, top that off with the BPO's being sold again, now with ME value. We should see atleast initial investment returned + 5% imo.. but then again im completely out of my league here!
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:17:00 - [120] Originally by: Bad Bobby Each Titan BPO costs 67.5 GISK and the extra ISK is going to be spent on a deathstar POS and various security measures. Actually, as mentioned in my earlier post (see above), only the most expensive Titan BPO is 67.5 GISK. The cheapest is fully 6.75 GISK (10%) cheaper. The full set runs to 256.5 GISK, not 270 GISK, so raising 280 GISK and buying the set would leave 23.5 GISK for POS operations, security. While this is less than 10% of the intended total, this is not a trivial unsecured pool of ISK, being larger than the entirety of most IPOs and bond offerings.
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:23:00 - [121] Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Bad Bobby Each Titan BPO costs 67.5 GISK and the extra ISK is going to be spent on a deathstar POS and various security measures. Actually, as mentioned in my earlier post (see above), only the most expensive Titan BPO is 67.5 GISK. The cheapest is fully 6.75 GISK (10%) cheaper. The full set runs to 256.5 GISK, not 270 GISK, so raising 280 GISK and buying the set would leave 23.5 GISK for POS operations, security. While this is less than 10% of the intended total, this is not a trivial unsecured pool of ISK, being larger than the entirety of most IPOs and bond offerings. Setting up the deathstar and fueling it will take close to 2.5 to 3 billion which will be assets in the IPO. I suppose since he is thinking about what to do with the remaining science and lab slots, well there is always other capital BPOs that could be acquired and be put to work as well. They wouldn't bring in the billions that a Titan BPC would, but using all the labs slots and making some ISK off of them is better than leaving lab slots idle and wasting fuel that has to be paid for anyway.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:35:00 - [122] Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Bad Bobby Each Titan BPO costs 67.5 GISK and the extra ISK is going to be spent on a deathstar POS and various security measures. Actually, as mentioned in my earlier post (see above), only the most expensive Titan BPO is 67.5 GISK. The cheapest is fully 6.75 GISK (10%) cheaper. The full set runs to 256.5 GISK, not 270 GISK, so raising 280 GISK and buying the set would leave 23.5 GISK for POS operations, security. While this is less than 10% of the intended total, this is not a trivial unsecured pool of ISK, being larger than the entirety of most IPOs and bond offerings. You are right, I had been working with worst-case figures during the discussion and I hadn't updated them when I decided on a 4-flavoured approach. Thats exactly the kind of tearing apart I expect to see, thanks! But also I have been thinking along the lines of what Kazzac mentioned earlier, there is the possibility of using some portion of that isk (basically I haven't costed the POS yet so I didn't know how much is going to be left over) to purchase capital component BPOs that could be locked down, researched up and copied to form Titan construction BPC kits that could further add value to our offering. But I also want to keep at least a modest war chest to cover contingencies (stuffed into my EBANK account and yielding 3% that would be used to augment our returns).
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:37:00 - [123] Originally by: Bad Bobby The risks, while definately present, are unlikely to endanger your initial investment. The board of trustees, lockdown procedures and obfuscation have been put in place for exactly this reason, to make sure your isk is safe from scams, deaths, burnouts and other disasters. ME research on the Titan BPOs will also make it fairly unlikely that we will be unable to sell them for at least the price paid, even post-nerf. If the returns nosedive selling the BPOs will be our get-out. It's also highly unlikey that the NPC price of a Titan will be reduced, the opposite is much more likely. Scams, deaths, and other disasters currently worry me less. The first is a matter of trust, the second leaves you with a problem a whole lot larger then lost isk, and the third is just that, nothing you can do about it. Your precautions doesn't make it a 'save' investment, just a saver investment. Selling it, may be more difficult then you think, (on the market) in The Forge there were only 10 Titan BPOs sold in the last year (one every ~35 days). If the market tanks for BPCs, you'll not be the only one looking to dump their BPOs. The price of a Titan BPO might indeed be increased, but the reverse might also be true. Just look at things that happened in the last year+, the end of ghost training, a serious $ price increase on GTCs, all things people thought would never happen (one of those was even a feature). I'm not saying it will, I'm saying it could. Originally by: Bad Bobby The risks to the return on investment, are more of a factor. This is a long term venture and we can expect to see the returns dwindle over the full turm as we see the market saturate. To some degree this will be mitigated as we see expectations of returns from public companies dwindle at the same time, as we have seen to a tremendous degree over past years. The ME research we will be doing on the BPOs will also generate higher value BPCs over time. We will also be increasing production between year one and year two, most likely, as we complete our ME research and start producing twice as many copies instead, further increasing returns. If Titans are not nerfed into oblivion, we could see the ME researched BPOs being worth a fair bit more than NPC price and we could see an additional return (at liquidation) due to this. Researching the ME of a BPO will cramp the return even further, in the hope that it'll increase the final sale price by enough to make up for it is a pretty big gamble. Researching it to ME1 will decrease profits for the first year by ~30%, that's a lot, getting the return to ~3%/month. To be honest planning an IPO in EVE for a whole year is already very tricky, planning it even farther into the future is unwise imho. Originally by: Bad Bobby A return of 4 percent per month, as has been suggested, is reasonable to expect once things get going. ... A return of 4% at the current date, with ME research it goes down even further. Originally by: Bad Bobby A security leak may result in the location of our POS being compromised. The most that can occur from this is the loss of partial research/copying results and the loss of our deathstar. This would be a set back for our profits but nothing more. A new secret corp could be created, new deathstar built and work continue in short order. While the BPO might be save, a new corp with POS deathstar is relatively expensive, not to mention that you'll lose the current research. It could easily mean no returns for six months (as the research is resumed and the POS is payed). Not to mention that moving the BPO to the holding corps system en moving the BPC out is also a serious risk. A security leak might result in the loss of the POS if someone is a bit sadistic, but intercepting the ship that's carrying the BPC (or the BPO after the POS is destroyed) is probably a lot more profitable...
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 13:50:00 - [124] Originally by: Cergorach Researching the ME of a BPO will cramp the return even further, in the hope that it'll increase the final sale price by enough to make up for it is a pretty big gamble. Researching it to ME1 will decrease profits for the first year by ~30%, that's a lot, getting the return to ~3%/month. But I think it will be needed to keep our BPC competitive and it will increase the value of our BPCs when sold. We're probably only looking at ME research alternating during the first 6 months, so in the second 6 months we can be free of that issue and selling more valuable and more profitable BPCs instead. Originally by: Cergorach To be honest planning an IPO in EVE for a whole year is already very tricky, planning it even farther into the future is unwise imho. I think it wise to plan reasonably far ahead so that you are ready to capitalise on opertunities and can position yourself to perform well over that duration if it all works out. It is entirely possibly that we could liquidate this operation at the end of the first year if we judge that is the best thing to do. I'm not just planning for the long term, but the short term, the medium term and as many eventualities as I can. Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: Bad Bobby A security leak may result in the location of our POS being compromised. The most that can occur from this is the loss of partial research/copying results and the loss of our deathstar. This would be a set back for our profits but nothing more. A new secret corp could be created, new deathstar built and work continue in short order. While the BPO might be save, a new corp with POS deathstar is relatively expensive, not to mention that you'll lose the current research. It could easily mean no returns for six months (as the research is resumed and the POS is payed). Not to mention that moving the BPO to the holding corps system en moving the BPC out is also a serious risk. A security leak might result in the loss of the POS if someone is a bit sadistic, but intercepting the ship that's carrying the BPC (or the BPO after the POS is destroyed) is probably a lot more profitable... A new deathstar would be up in short order (a week is all that takes), delays could be 4 months if it comes at the worst time, not six months. A security leak that resulted in a lost deathstar and requiring a new corp would probably lead to a replacement of the Trustees to plug the leak, but it would depend greatly on the specifics of the leak.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.20 15:16:00 - [125] Originally by: Bad Bobby I think it wise to plan reasonably far ahead so that you are ready to capitalise on opertunities and can position yourself to perform well over that duration if it all works out. It is entirely possibly that we could liquidate this operation at the end of the first year if we judge that is the best thing to do. I'm not just planning for the long term, but the short term, the medium term and as many eventualities as I can. I probably wasn't clear by what I meant, You have a one trick horse (Titan BPCs) and your planning years ahead with it. Your gambling with the Titan BPCs that they'll have the same value over a two year period. If something goes wrong with that market, all your dependancies to recover those losses are tied into that same market. While Ebank also trades in Titan BPCs, it's not it's only form of income, if it crashes, it doesn't mean the end of Ebank. Originally by: Bad Bobby But I think it will be needed to keep our BPC competitive and it will increase the value of our BPCs when sold. We're probably only looking at ME research alternating during the first 6 months, so in the second 6 months we can be free of that issue and selling more valuable and more profitable BPCs instead. Folks in this thread have estimated Titan BPC sales at 12-14B isk each, I currently see a Titan BPC @ME1 for 18B on contract, so if you indeed run the IPO for two years (at current prices), this would be a wise investment. I think that even if you run the IPO for one year it might be a good idea... Originally by: Bad Bobby A new deathstar would be up in short order (a week is all that takes), delays could be 4 months if it comes at the worst time, not six months. Your right. But that's still four months without a profit and that seriously inmpacts the overal return per month. If the worst situation happened it might be saver to take the 3% return Ebank gives on certain accounts. Originally by: Bad Bobby A security leak that resulted in a lost deathstar and requiring a new corp would probably lead to a replacement of the Trustees to plug the leak, but it would depend greatly on the specifics of the leak. The problem with this is that you can't trace the leak, so it could be 'luck' that your deathstar was blown up or someone leaked it. firing your BOD won't make your BOD happy and would damage everyones reputation that was involved. Who would replace the current BOD?
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 16:11:00 - [126] Originally by: Cergorach Your right. But that's still four months without a profit and that seriously inmpacts the overal return per month. If the worst situation happened it might be saver to take the 3% return Ebank gives on certain accounts. Originally by: Bad Bobby A security leak that resulted in a lost deathstar and requiring a new corp would probably lead to a replacement of the Trustees to plug the leak, but it would depend greatly on the specifics of the leak. The problem with this is that you can't trace the leak, so it could be 'luck' that your deathstar was blown up or someone leaked it. firing your BOD won't make your BOD happy and would damage everyones reputation that was involved. Who would replace the current BOD? Yes, if the Trustees turn out to untrustworthy or the deathstar gets attacked by a force capable of overcomming it with my allies defending it, then we'll be set back a great deal. It's not an eventuality I would like to see, which is why I've chosen the Trustees I have and I'm entering in to this with the allies I have. I've also run several other businesses in conjested fields and declining markets and made good money in the past. Selling BPCs is something I've made a lot of isk from and running POSes has made me (and my investors) good isk. So with my judgement and investors consent I'll be able to deal with whatever the future brings. I'm pretty certain of that. If the best course of action for the investors is to liquidate at any point, that is what we will do.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.20 16:59:00 - [127] I like the plan and am on board, staggering your print inputs between research and copy allows a nice out as well if it all tanks in 6 months since you'll have some added value at print resale on at least 2 of them. Just evemail the details of what you need and when
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.20 17:13:00 - [128] I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself with the board of trustees, and I disagree with your current system both on a moral basis and upon a security basis. Starting with the fuzzier moral basis I agree that it is necessary to have people on board who are effectively trading in the trust the community has against them in addition to any security applied on the assets. However I do disagree to it being decided by a popular vote (either public or personal) based upon who likes who. Ji has already created a biased list, and there may be other arrangements going on that causes some people to side with other people. Furthermore I protest to the idea that these people should get a free cut of the profits just because they have a good reputation, as we cannot be sure just exactly what any involvement might be. Say 2 of the group decided to set up a scam in which they played a third member of the group to unwittingly vote in their favour because that member has had other, more pressing, matters to attend to and was not paying attention. Afterwards all 3 come up blaming the other 2 and saying they were the duped one, and the rest of us are left in a poor position. This leads to my second objection, which is based around security. The point of having these people on board, imo, is to not only act in good faith of the public, but to also be vigilant against others. Say you are earning 100bn profit per year, and a trustee member with no other involvement gets 1%. That's a billion ISK, which is peanuts to the likes of many of those people on the list. How much time are they going to spend protecting my interest when they have almost no investment in the project as their personal returns are a drop in the ocean. It will always be low priority to them. Therefore I would propose that each trustee would need to have a significant investment in the project as a whole. Because then in addition to protecting their reputation they will also be protecting their investment and their investment dividends. I think this will result in the trustee taking a far more active interest in the project. In this case I'd be happy to see them earn an addiional 1% because I'd be confident they would be taking active measures to ensure the success of the business. ---------- On the issue of auditors and API keys I would say that in this case an auditor is un-necessary. The point of the trustees is that they can be trusted, and if you are picking 4 people that can't spot something an auditor would then I don't think there is any point having them. It also closes a loophole in having an external auditor become aware of the SECRET corp. Can you get corporation wallet information from an inactive account? If so then I think that each trustee will have enough information from their trial alt won't they? ---------- My final question about the trustee board concerns the secret shares. If I was a trustee and held those shares on my main, and I decided to give out the API key of my main to an auditor to audit the business my main is CEO of won't that auditor get knowledge of the shares I hold in the SECRET corp? Once you know the corp name, you can get the CEO, and from there enough locator agent rolls gives you a good chance of finding the target system.
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.20 17:20:00 - [129] orry for the length of this post, but I have a final question that is a bit more competition based, and revolves around the concept of ME research. What value do you think there is in conducting ME research within the realms of market saturation. For example if you and a competitor produce 2 BPCs in a time frame, and in that time frame their is only 1 buyer then the ME research has a lot of value. You could forgo the one sale at the beginning and then win every other sale. This would provide a measure of future-proofing against competitors if the market interest were to decrease. The only thing a competitor could do would be to increase their own ME. This would result in an ME arms race whereby whomever had the lower ME would be forced to undertake ME research to catch up. The final solution to this game is to either have all players reach a point where additional research conducts no significant improvement (with the resultant loss of income through non-sales) or to not start the arms race in the first place. Of course I have heavily over-simplified this, as of course non-production from research would increase demand, that it all stems on possibly such a low demand that the project would be seen as a bust etc. But the 'game' was designed to help answer the question of the value of increasing ME. What I am reducing this down to is whether there is any point taking a BPO to ME1 if all you are going to do is force the competitors to follow suit. You are hurting them, but you are not helping yourself. If going from ME0 to ME1 is really that great then your competitors will be forced to follow. If it is not then why bother?
skilzrulz Gallente 0neZeR0 Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.20 18:05:00 - [130] Originally by: Skarii TuThess orry for the length of this post, but I have a final question that is a bit more competition based, and revolves around the concept of ME research. What value do you think there is in conducting ME research within the realms of market saturation. For example if you and a competitor produce 2 BPCs in a time frame, and in that time frame their is only 1 buyer then the ME research has a lot of value. You could forgo the one sale at the beginning and then win every other sale. This would provide a measure of future-proofing against competitors if the market interest were to decrease. The only thing a competitor could do would be to increase their own ME. This would result in an ME arms race whereby whomever had the lower ME would be forced to undertake ME research to catch up. The final solution to this game is to either have all players reach a point where additional research conducts no significant improvement (with the resultant loss of income through non-sales) or to not start the arms race in the first place. Of course I have heavily over-simplified this, as of course non-production from research would increase demand, that it all stems on possibly such a low demand that the project would be seen as a bust etc. But the 'game' was designed to help answer the question of the value of increasing ME. What I am reducing this down to is whether there is any point taking a BPO to ME1 if all you are going to do is force the competitors to follow suit. You are hurting them, but you are not helping yourself. If going from ME0 to ME1 is really that great then your competitors will be forced to follow. If it is not then why bother? the break even point for profit, if you spent time researching it to ME1 is like 2 years.
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.20 19:50:00 - [131] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 20/06/2009 19:52:12 Originally by: Skarii TuThess Starting with the fuzzier moral basis I agree that it is necessary to have people on board who are effectively trading in the trust the community has against them in addition to any security applied on the assets. However I do disagree to it being decided by a popular vote (either public or personal) based upon who likes who. Ji has already created a biased list, and there may be other arrangements going on that causes some people to side with other people. Furthermore I protest to the idea that these people should get a free cut of the profits just because they have a good reputation, as we cannot be sure just exactly what any involvement might be. Say 2 of the group decided to set up a scam in which they played a third member of the group to unwittingly vote in their favour because that member has had other, more pressing, matters to attend to and was not paying attention. Afterwards all 3 come up blaming the other 2 and saying they were the duped one, and the rest of us are left in a poor position. This leads to my second objection, which is based around security. The point of having these people on board, imo, is to not only act in good faith of the public, but to also be vigilant against others. Say you are earning 100bn profit per year, and a trustee member with no other involvement gets 1%. That's a billion ISK, which is peanuts to the likes of many of those people on the list. How much time are they going to spend protecting my interest when they have almost no investment in the project as their personal returns are a drop in the ocean. It will always be low priority to them. Therefore I would propose that each trustee would need to have a significant investment in the project as a whole. Because then in addition to protecting their reputation they will also be protecting their investment and their investment dividends. I think this will result in the trustee taking a far more active interest in the project. In this case I'd be happy to see them earn an addiional 1% because I'd be confident they would be taking active measures to ensure the success of the business. This is what I was saying. The benefits to having a board of trustees is very minimal. The success or fail of this is based on trust in you. It is that simple. The board of trustees does nothing and they get paid for doing nothing. It just adds a security problem and reduces returns to the people who have actually invested ISK into the venture. If anything happens, each trustee will just point at the other ones. Get rid of the board. This offering fails or doesn't based on your reputation. People either trust you with 70B or they donÆt. I would see how much ISK is actually raised before planning for 2-3 BPOs within the first 6 months. -GV edit:format
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.20 20:41:00 - [132] Quote: Incidentally Vaerah is already aquainted with the combat capabilities of one of my PvP corps. I hope you enjoyed the fireworks! Who are them? With permanent 3-7 wardecs running all the time it gets easy to miss who is who.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.20 21:40:00 - [133] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Incidentally Vaerah is already aquainted with the combat capabilities of one of my PvP corps. I hope you enjoyed the fireworks! Who are them? With permanent 3-7 wardecs running all the time it gets easy to miss who is who. You were in a 30 man fleet, with 10 Megathrons, a Tempest, some tackle and some T2 and T1 cruisers. You wandered into our area of 0.0. We were in a 10 man frigate gang. We baited you to aggress my rifter on a gate, you bubbled your own fleet and we attacked killing 12 of your ships (including 2 BS and 2 T2 cruisers) for the loss of 2 frigates (one was my Rifter).
Foolish Bob Caldari FireTech	Posted - 2009.06.20 21:59:00 - [134] Originally by: Bad Bobby You were in a 30 man fleet, with 10 Megathrons, a Tempest, some tackle and some T2 and T1 cruisers. You wandered into our area of 0.0. We were in a 10 man frigate gang. We baited you to aggress my rifter on a gate, you bubbled your own fleet and we attacked killing 12 of your ships (including 2 BS and 2 T2 cruisers) for the loss of 2 frigates (one was my Rifter). To jog your memory Originally by: Mitch Taylor Fleet comms was entertaining... what are those bright lights... oh my god! Well played. The main reason to comment though is that I'm a tennant of Bobby's and he most certainly has a customer-centric attitude. After all, if we make money he makes money. That's why, for what it's worth, I'm setting aside some isk to take part in this.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.20 22:13:00 - [135] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus This is what I was saying. The benefits to having a board of trustees is very minimal. The success or fail of this is based on trust in you. It is that simple. The board of trustees does nothing and they get paid for doing nothing. It just adds a security problem and reduces returns to the people who have actually invested ISK into the venture. If anything happens, each trustee will just point at the other ones. Get rid of the board. This offering fails or doesn't based on your reputation. People either trust you with 70B or they donÆt. I would see how much ISK is actually raised before planning for 2-3 BPOs within the first 6 months. -GV edit:format The largest benefit of having a board of trustees is to ensure that should BB drop off the face of the planet, the investors only need 3 active ones to unlock their investment and recoup everything. Its almost a must when you are dealing with amounts nearing a quarter of a trillion as invariably the assets being worked with are ensured to be dug in tighter than an Alabama tick.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.21 01:16:00 - [136] Quote: You were in a 30 man fleet, with 10 Megathrons, a Tempest, some tackle and some T2 and T1 cruisers. You wandered into our area of 0.0. I don't recall this, think I missed that. The one recent time I lost something in 0.0 was vs a well coordinated attack of stealth bombers. -------------------------- On an unrelated matter, any comment about the recent closure of Skillrulz IPO? What makes you think you'll not be crushed in the same way, with a snap of two fingers? Or do you feel you are "in the right block" so you are sort of secured, and sure of no future surprise?
Viktor Raybach	Posted - 2009.06.21 02:05:00 - [137] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: On an unrelated matter, any comment about the recent closure of Skillrulz IPO? Any modi****of thought and investigation would show why people were advising against that IPO and why Bad Bobby's offering doesn't have the same issues/concerns (well, other than the basic 'what if titans are nerfed?' one).
Naate Minmatar OroCorp	Posted - 2009.06.21 04:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Bad Bobby How? How much? How soon? How will it end? But, here is the big question, how much of a return can we expect? After 110 days, 2 ME 0 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 237 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? After 347 days, 2 ME 1 Titan BPCs: How much would we get for them? Total income from year one? How will that change in year two? Is that enough? Figuring out the rational maximum value increase of a ME1 Titan BPC over a ME0 Titan BPC should be fairly trivial. I'm at work presently without the benefit of EVE to leap in and check the figures, but hopefully someone can provide the calculation. :) But of course, to suggest that people are completely rational in financial decision making would be rediculous. Even if there is a 10 billion isk savings (price pulled from air) between building a Titan with ME1 compared to ME0, and you met them in the middle with a 5 billion isk price increase over the going ME0 rates, there is no guarantee they would go for it given the cheaper option which according to ME levels 'is not that much worse'. Although as I understand it, right now at least, Titan BPCs are being snapped up fairly quick, and could likely withstand another player or two on the field without really dropping the price point significantly, if at all. But as has been mentioned over and over, the real issues come into play with the timeframe. There just is no real way of knowing what the Titan situation is going to be like that far out. Even so, I think it extremely unlikely that Titans are going to become so out of style as to no longer be used, and worst case is that you have to sell the BPOs for close to NPC market price or even slightly under in order to get a sale, hopefully even if the latter turns out to be the case, the profits made over the lifespan of the project will cause it be more than a break even experience. --- Take care, -Naithin (Naate),.
Cayce Pollard	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:42:00 - [139] just some rough math going off of todays Jita average for capital components the savings from ME0 to ME1 is 2.76 billion isk. But I would hazard that most people building a titan would gladly pay a few extra iskies to avoid the logistical headaches involved with building or hauling 325 addition capital components.
fugazii Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:19:00 - [140] I see alot of people talking about possible nerfs in the future that will reduce price, and alot of people saying more volume of bpos are being bought which will also drive down the price. This is why you are wrong: Not all of you may know me but those of you who do, know me as a t2 bpo and titan bpc reseller. Ive watched every public transaction that has happened in both fields on a daily basis for the last 10 mo. Nerfs: If a major nerf was to happen it would have already. Like t2 bpos CCP regrets putting them into the game, however they also realize people have trillions of isk invested in them and can't just make them obsolete. This is the same with titans. Someone mentioned about the carrier being DD'd to death. While this is true, it was a fully staged event against a friendly carrier and the game simply is not at the point where this can actually happen in real combat. Largely in part to lack of titans being available at a given time, but more importantly the fact that jumping 27 titans into a lagged out system with hundreds of hostiles has the possibility of losing upwards of 3 trillion isk in a single battle. Your thinking, "so what does this have to do with anything?" CCP is notorious for not fixing anything until it's widely abused, and once this scenario is widely abused it will simply be to late to be nerfed fully. Due to the fact that once this point comes there will be so many titans around that CCP won't be able to just say "sorry guys, your being nerfed to hell" because it will effect such a huge amount of isk investment. So if a nerf comes, it will be something minor such as a limit to DD per grid per hour, which in effect would stop the mass dd's but would only nerf titans to the point they are now -used a few times per battle. Volume of bpcs: The argument that bpcs will decrease in value over time because of volume is correct if you don't factor in inflation. The argument is easily proven wrong by looking at titan bpc prices from 8mo ago, 5mo ago, and in the last month. If your argument would be correct then bpcs 8 mo ago would be higher price than they are today. In November I sold a Avatar BPC for 8.5b, it took me a couple days because this was a high price. 2 weeks ago a friend of mine sold an Avatar BPC for 16b, he stuck it on contracts, made a forum post and went to bed. 10 hours later he woke up, the bpc had been bought along with multiple people willing to take the buyout aswell, -he priced the bpc to low. Earlier today a Erebus BPC was bought out within 4 hours at 20b, the 2 prior to that which was around 2 months ago sold at 20b ea aswell however taking over a day to sell at that price. The main point there being the 2 prior took over a day to sell at 20b, the one earlier today took 1/6th of a day, -meaning his price was to low. The Leviathan is consistently selling at 16b, even though theres been around 10 sold in the last 2mo, this is up from around 11-12b selling price in late 08'. The Ragnarok is the only mystery BPC atm. In 08 they would sell between 11-13b. The last one that sold is one my friend sold it was 2mo ago at 13b(against my advice) it took less than 4hours to sell. The one before that about 4 mo ago sold at 13b in under 2hours. Obviously these 2 recent sales are not the actual selling price of what the Rag is worth, or they wouldn't have been sold so incredibly quickly. I would guess in a actual smart sale, a Rag bpc would grab minimum of 18b. The point of all those stats is to show that even though there is many more bpos on market today compared to 08, the prices have consistently risen in multiple billions. As people become richer and alliances are now far far richer thanks to no pos exploit the price on rare highly sought after items will continue to increase due to the fact that theres more liquid. A multi year example of this is T2 BPOs, and their prices then and now. Overall they have jumped from less than a year profit sale price to upwards of 2.5-3.5 .
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:43:00 - [141] There are a lot of things CCP 'nerfed' that folks claimed would never be 'nerfed', things like ghost training and the price of a GTC ($). If previous 'nerfs' are any indication, how CCP sees things and how some of the player base see things aren't always compatible (what one finds acceptable, another might not). I'm not saying it's going to happen, but that it could happen. We're not talking about a 'nerf to hell' scenario, but just enough 'nerf' to cause just enough folks do abandon the Titan bandwagon to create a little oversupply. You would be surprised how quickly a little oversupply can turn prices to crap. Often, with crap prices/oversupply you wait a while and maybe pick up a little cheap stock, waiting for the prices to return to 'normal'. While there are some folks who could afford to do that with Titan BPCs,this IPO isn't one of them.
Scott Ryder Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2009.06.21 06:50:00 - [142] Edited by: Scott Ryder on 21/06/2009 06:51:23 Isnt 4 percent a bit low? On 70 b that is 2.8 b per month. roughly half the profits. Originally by: Cergorach There are a lot of things CCP 'nerfed' that folks claimed would never be 'nerfed', things like ghost training and the price of a GTC ($). If previous 'nerfs' are any indication, how CCP sees things and how some of the player base see things aren't always compatible (what one finds acceptable, another might not). I'm not saying it's going to happen, but that it could happen. We're not talking about a 'nerf to hell' scenario, but just enough 'nerf' to cause just enough folks do abandon the Titan bandwagon to create a little oversupply. You would be surprised how quickly a little oversupply can turn prices to crap. Often, with crap prices/oversupply you wait a while and maybe pick up a little cheap stock, waiting for the prices to return to 'normal'. While there are some folks who could afford to do that with Titan BPCs,this IPO isn't one of them. Even if nerfed I dont see titan Bpcs dropping to more then 10 b a month. He can still repay his investors @ 4 percent interest
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:10:00 - [143] You'd be surprised at how desperate people is for a secure investment... 1 audit project in the works, 3 lined up
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:42:00 - [144] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You were in a 30 man fleet, with 10 Megathrons, a Tempest, some tackle and some T2 and T1 cruisers. You wandered into our area of 0.0. I don't recall this, think I missed that. The one recent time I lost something in 0.0 was vs a well coordinated attack of stealth bombers. That would be the one. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha On an unrelated matter, any comment about the recent closure of Skillrulz IPO? It came as no suprise to me. I wouldn't have invested in it either. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha What makes you think you'll not be crushed in the same way, with a snap of two fingers? Well for one, this plan is still under discussion and I think you can see that I am open to changing the approach to address people's concerns where possible.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 07:52:00 - [145] Originally by: Bad Bobby I'll be buying the follwing BPOs in this order: Leviathan (Caldari) Erebus (Gallente) Avatar (Amarr) Ragnarok (Minmatar) Having looked at various options, I'm inclined to fine tune the size of the 4 investment blocks as follows: Block 1 = 70b (63b for Leviathan BPO and 7b for deathstar, fuel stockpile and war chest) Block 2 = 66b (Erebus BPO) Block 3 = 68b (Avatar BPO) Block 4 = 61b (Ragnarok BPO) Total = 265b
Scott Ryder Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2009.06.21 08:10:00 - [146] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Bad Bobby I'll be buying the follwing BPOs in this order: Leviathan (Caldari) Erebus (Gallente) Avatar (Amarr) Ragnarok (Minmatar) Having looked at various options, I'm inclined to fine tune the size of the 4 investment blocks as follows: Block 1 = 70b (63b for Leviathan BPO and 7b for deathstar, fuel stockpile and war chest) Block 2 = 66b (Erebus BPO) Block 3 = 68b (Avatar BPO) Block 4 = 61b (Ragnarok BPO) Total = 265b Slightly off topic, but what kinda return are we looking at?
fugazii Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.21 08:15:00 - [147] Originally by: Cergorach There are a lot of things CCP 'nerfed' that folks claimed would never be 'nerfed', things like ghost training and the price of a GTC ($). If previous 'nerfs' are any indication, how CCP sees things and how some of the player base see things aren't always compatible (what one finds acceptable, another might not). I'm not saying it's going to happen, but that it could happen. We're not talking about a 'nerf to hell' scenario, but just enough 'nerf' to cause just enough folks do abandon the Titan bandwagon to create a little oversupply. You would be surprised how quickly a little oversupply can turn prices to crap. Often, with crap prices/oversupply you wait a while and maybe pick up a little cheap stock, waiting for the prices to return to 'normal'. While there are some folks who could afford to do that with Titan BPCs,this IPO isn't one of them. Ghost training is something CCP had been debating for multiple years. GTC prices is something that came about after again, multiple years of tweaking. Titans will never be nerfed more than they are currently. CCP would have trillions of isk to reimburse if they did. Badbobby, you need to seriously reconsider your purchase order on bpos. Do some research, Avatars and Leviathans are the most common bpcs. The order should be Erebus - Ragnarok - Leviathan - Avatar, or even switching Rag and Erebus if you want to play speculation on what others will buy next. The lack of actual market watching on market discussion is amazing tbh.
Gabriel Virtus hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.21 08:37:00 - [148] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Gabriel Virtus This is what I was saying. The benefits to having a board of trustees is very minimal. The success or fail of this is based on trust in you. It is that simple. The board of trustees does nothing and they get paid for doing nothing. It just adds a security problem and reduces returns to the people who have actually invested ISK into the venture. If anything happens, each trustee will just point at the other ones. Get rid of the board. This offering fails or doesn't based on your reputation. People either trust you with 70B or they donÆt. I would see how much ISK is actually raised before planning for 2-3 BPOs within the first 6 months. -GV edit:format The largest benefit of having a board of trustees is to ensure that should BB drop off the face of the planet, the investors only need 3 active ones to unlock their investment and recoup everything. Its almost a must when you are dealing with amounts nearing a quarter of a trillion as invariably the assets being worked with are ensured to be dug in tighter than an Alabama tick. A benefit which I already discussed in a previous post in this thread. The added benefit from the BOD is that if BB falls off the face of the earth, there will be a way to get to the asset. Another benefit is that it would prevent him from ever having more than 70B in his hands ( I am assuming you bros would be intelligent enough to only purchase 1 BPO at a time and lock it down before giving him more money), however at the start of the IPO BB will get all the money in his pocket. This benefit is fail. Let us talk about the costs of the BOD. 1.Lost profit to the people actually investing isk because you are paying 4% to people that are doing nothing. They are just there and are part of your guys' circ-jerk. 2. More people will know about the secret corp and risk a leak that would put everyone's money in jeopardy. If any one of you get **ed off, you could ruin the profitability of the investment. There would never be a way to find out who did it either. The costs in order to have BOD ( the security risk and the lost profit to investors ) is greater than the benefit, especially because the BB dies benefit can be handled a different and much cheaper way. Countless IPO/Bonds have handled this without ing away margins when the entire investment is working on margins. I cannot imagine why Kazzac would endorse a BOD - wait he is on it and stands to make money for doing nothing with no money invested. The BOD is ing away margins and creates a security risk. Let this offering live or die on BB. See how much money you can raise and then decide if this is needed. No reason to ** away marginal income before you see the ISK in your pocket. -GV I am still waiting on my token invitation to the BOD btw.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 09:02:00 - [149] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus however at the start of the IPO BB will get all the money in his pocket. No. As I've stated previously I will be taking the isk in blocks and buying and locking down each BPO before the funds for the next block are sent to me. I will not have 265b of investors isk in my hands at any point. Originally by: Gabriel Virtus the BB dies benefit can be handled a different and much cheaper way. Countless IPO/Bonds have handled this without ****ing away margins when the entire investment is working on margins. Other IPOs have 'handled' these things with somewhat dubious measures. Either EULA breaching account sharing or the ludicrous assumption that a grief stricken widow is going to give two hoots about her late husbands internet spaceship pals. We've seen a lot of investments fail due to absent managers and the risk of that has to be taken seriously.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 09:04:00 - [150] Originally by: Scott Ryder Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Bad Bobby I'll be buying the follwing BPOs in this order: Leviathan (Caldari) Erebus (Gallente) Avatar (Amarr) Ragnarok (Minmatar) Having looked at various options, I'm inclined to fine tune the size of the 4 investment blocks as follows: Block 1 = 70b (63b for Leviathan BPO and 7b for deathstar, fuel stockpile and war chest) Block 2 = 66b (Erebus BPO) Block 3 = 68b (Avatar BPO) Block 4 = 61b (Ragnarok BPO) Total = 265b Slightly off topic, but what kinda return are we looking at? That's not off topic at all. It's pretty much educated guesswork as to what level of return we can expect. If we just look at the first year, with full investment, we are planning to produce an sell the following: Month 4: Leviathan BPC ME 0 Erebus BPC ME 0 Month 8: Avatar BPC ME 1 Ragnarok BPC ME 1 Month 12: Leviathan BPC ME 1 Erebus BPC ME 1 Avatar BPC ME 1 Ragnarok BPC ME 1 If the average sale price of these BPCs was 15b then we would have 120b in profits to share. Take 10% off for administrative costs and we have 108b to distribute to shareholders. 108b / 265b = 40.7% annual return or 3.4% monthly return. The BPOs would have been researched to ME 1, so there is also a potential for the liquidation value of the enterprise to have increased at the same time. If we get into a second year we may well sell 12 BPCs rather than 8, but it's even harder to predict the prices that far off. Obviously, if we manage to sell a BPC for 20b as has occured in the past, then returns would be higher. I wouldn't pin our hopes on that however.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:08:00 - [151] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/06/2009 11:09:50 oh but we can always hope bobby.... also.. edit: first on page 6 and to add something that might have value... what time table are we looking at for expansions? (2nd, 3rd and 4th block) would it be unsafe to assume that prices would be a slight tad higher and that we are looking at lowest expected return?
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:34:00 - [152] Explain to me again the rationale of researching to ME1 please. Say we increase the price from 18bn to 20.65bn (assuming we can pass the full 2.65bn building cost saving of taking the print to ME1 on as a price increase), we would be forgoing 1 month of income for a subsequent 12.8% increase in profits. That's 7.8 periods to break even, or to put it in real terms if you miss a sale at the first round you will be back in profit at the 9th round (3 years after the project starts). Furthermore isn't it contradictory to not research half of the prints in the first round if you feel this is best? Say a standard dividend is 25pts per print, or 100pts total. We have 3 scenarios: (a) Keep all at ME0 (b) Research 2 prints to ME1 immediately, delay the other 2 by 1 month (c) Research all prints to ME1 immediately. (to prevent fractions I have taken price increase of ME1 prints at 12% rather than 12.8%) Dividend Payment Mn - (a) - (b) - (c) 04 - 100 - 050 - 000 08 - 100 - 056 - 112 12 - 100 - 112 - 112 16 - 100 - 112 - 112 20 - 100 - 112 - 112 24 - 100 - 112 - 112 28 - 100 - 112 - 112 32 - 100 - 112 - 112 36 - 100 - 112 - 112 Dividend Totals Mn - (a) - (b) - (c) - Best 04 - 100 - 050 - 000 - (a) 08 - 200 - 106 - 112 - (a) +78.6% 12 - 300 - 218 - 224 - (a) +33.9% 16 - 400 - 330 - 336 - (a) +19.0% 20 - 500 - 442 - 448 - (a) +11.6% 24 - 600 - 554 - 560 - (a) + 7.0% 28 - 700 - 666 - 672 - (a) + 4.2% 32 - 800 - 778 - 784 - (a) + 2.0% 36 - 900 - 890 - 896 - (a) + 0.4% At month 08 scenario (c) is ahead of (b) and will always remain ahead. Scenario (a) remains ahead of (c) until the 36month period.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:41:00 - [153] nice job... well it looks as though ME isnt worth it. i still think that the best long term plan would be to start ME on all prints ^^ either way, i think the balanced approach that bobby want to take is the safest, long term plan, not the most profitable.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.21 12:32:00 - [154] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Explain to me again the rationale of researching to ME1 please. Say we increase the price from 18bn to 20.65bn (assuming we can pass the full 2.65bn building cost saving of taking the print to ME1 on as a price increase), we would be forgoing 1 month of income for a subsequent 12.8% increase in profits. That's 7.8 periods to break even, or to put it in real terms if you miss a sale at the first round you will be back in profit at the 9th round (3 years after the project starts). 1) So if the additional profit doesn't justify researching to ME 1, there is no other additional reason to research? Interesting. 2) The Titan BPO becomes a semi-fixed asset, essentially equity within the business. The only cost related to this equity is the depreciation of that asset. The entire BPO does not suffer a 100% depreciation so your estimate of 3 years to profit is incorrect. If only there was SOME activity that could be performed to help compete AND fight depreciation. Some kind of action that could be performed on a Titan BPO. Oh well!
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.06.21 13:31:00 - [155] Originally by: fugazii Titans will never be nerfed more than they are currently. CCP would have trillions of isk to reimburse if they did. Since when does CCP do reimbursements when they 'nerf' ships? Did they ever when they 'nerfed' other ships? By how much did demand drop for the Myrmidon after the shield 'nerf' or the drone bandwith 'nerf', now check the same for all the other 'nerfs'. Demand will often return, but it often takes months...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.21 15:11:00 - [156] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I cannot imagine why Kazzac would endorse a BOD - wait he is on it and stands to make money for doing nothing with no money invested. The BOD is **ing away margins and creates a security risk. Let this offering live or die on BB. See how much money you can raise and then decide if this is needed. No reason to ** away marginal income before you see the ISK in your pocket. -GV I am still waiting on my token invitation to the BOD btw. Actually I missed the fact that we'd get paid for essentially doing nothing. I'd rather the profits be distributed to share holders and BB retain mgt fee since he will be running the show. The BoT only exist as a backup plan. As it stands, I'll likely be investing at least a solid bil into this. Not much more though, I loathe locking up capital longer than 6 months at a time.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.21 15:15:00 - [157] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I cannot imagine why Kazzac would endorse a BOD - wait he is on it and stands to make money for doing nothing with no money invested. The BOD is **ing away margins and creates a security risk. Let this offering live or die on BB. See how much money you can raise and then decide if this is needed. No reason to ** away marginal income before you see the ISK in your pocket. -GV I am still waiting on my token invitation to the BOD btw. Actually I missed the fact that we'd get paid for essentially doing nothing. I'd rather the profits be distributed to share holders and BB retain mgt fee since he will be running the show. The BoT only exist as a backup plan. As it stands, I'll likely be investing at least a solid bil into this. Not much more though, I loathe locking up capital longer than 6 months at a time. It is the principal job of management to ensure that shareholder value is enhanced. Shareholders are part-owners (owners!) and like any business owner, they expect their business to make them money.
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.21 17:00:00 - [158] Originally by: Hexxx 1) So if the additional profit doesn't justify researching to ME 1, there is no other additional reason to research? Interesting. I already stated in a post a couple pages back about this, but nobody responded to it so I guessed they were bored with the argument. To recap the argument I stated that if ME1 were sufficiently justified to perform in terms of competition then all you would do is force your competitors to go to ME1 as well. This would spark an arms race whereby the competitors would all lose isk by pushing their ME up to outdo the competition. In fact if I were running this I'd seek to make an agreement with others doing the same to not increase ME. There's also the case of value appreciation of the asset, but I personally feel that if the asset has reached a stage where there is no longer the demand to sell BPCs then the increased value will be negligable. If it's got to a point where you can no longer sell 1 BPC every 4 months, offloading a BPO could be tricky - and if there is a surplus of stock and ME is needed to make it viable then you can always research ME at the end before selling it. Quote: 2) The Titan BPO becomes a semi-fixed asset, essentially equity within the business. The only cost related to this equity is the depreciation of that asset. The entire BPO does not suffer a 100% depreciation so your estimate of 3 years to profit is incorrect. I am talking about the profits of scenario (a) to scenario (c) - that is to say that it will take 3 years for scenario (c) to be more profitable than scenario (a). All 3 scenarios will be continuously in profit if we (quite rightly I would say) assume that the BPO is more or less a fixed asset, and as long as there are no operational losses (like the pos being blown up and that run ruined). Once again to keep things simple I was talking about the profit of ME1 BPCs vs ME0 BPCs. It's hard to guage BPO depreciation when CCP put their own price on such an item. Stop talking to me like I'm a ****. Originally by:** Hexxx It is the principal job of management to ensure that shareholder value is enhanced. Shareholders are part-owners (owners!) and like any business owner, they expect their business to make them money. So if you were in the board of trustees, how much time will you commit towards ensuring shareholder value for 1% of the profits? I agree with you that this is what the management should be doing, but what priority are they going to place on a venture that earns them so much less than their other ones? For something of this magnitude, as a shareholder, I would demand that more than lip service is paid.
Joss Sparq Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.21 17:21:00 - [159] Speaking for myself, I would be more confident in investing when I know the board of trustees are being reimbursed for their duties. As to what those duties actually entail, I believe that has already been discussed and such payment as described is affected as a retainer should they need to be called upon to perform their most significant of duties - dissolution. These are after all people whom have a certain aura of community trust about them, making them attractive choices for the position of trustees. Why shouldn't they be rewarded for their admirable qualities?
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.21 18:17:00 - [160] Comments: 1. Not a big fan of ME research in the first year. If there is an argument for the Titans being nerfed, then you should get as many BPC's made in the first year as possible. 2. I think the BOD aids in improving the security of the IPO 3. I do not agree with as large a fee as suggested. The amount of work is limited. The directors have less than 10 minutes work per year, but will be paid at least 1.2B ISK with 8 BPC's being produced. BB will have minimal work. Yes, you have to set up a death star POS and move prints from Jita. Potentially four or five refuellings, and a bit of work selling prints. Does that justify at least a 7.2B management fee assuming 8 BPC's. If 12 its over 10B. In this scenario with the large sums I don't think the pay needs to be that high. Investors shouldn't have to pay 12-18B in management fees a year.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.21 18:27:00 - [161] Edited by: Hexxx on 21/06/2009 18:27:17 Originally by: Skarii TuThess Originally by: Hexxx 1) So if the additional profit doesn't justify researching to ME 1, there is no other additional reason to research? Interesting. I already stated in a post a couple pages back about this, but nobody responded to it so I guessed they were bored with the argument. To recap the argument I stated that if ME1 were sufficiently justified to perform in terms of competition then all you would do is force your competitors to go to ME1 as well. This would spark an arms race whereby the competitors would all lose isk by pushing their ME up to outdo the competition. In fact if I were running this I'd seek to make an agreement with others doing the same to not increase ME. Oh, so we should all cooperate so that we could reduce our costs? That doesn't sound like capitalism to me. Whoever strikes first and has the liquidity to rotate BPO's can research first and stay ahead of competition even if they chase it. By raising the barrier to entry (increasing the ME) you can essentially...at some point...create an effective monopoly on the BPC market because of the barriers to entry. Sure, your margins are lower, but you lock in your dominance of the market and that sounds like an acceptable price to me. Sounds fun to me. Profitable too. Originally by: Skarii TuThess There's also the case of value appreciation of the asset, but I personally feel that if the asset has reached a stage where there is no longer the demand to sell BPCs then the increased value will be negligable. If it's got to a point where you can no longer sell 1 BPC every 4 months, offloading a BPO could be tricky - and if there is a surplus of stock and ME is needed to make it viable then you can always research ME at the end before selling it. Quote: 2) The Titan BPO becomes a semi-fixed asset, essentially equity within the business. The only cost related to this equity is the depreciation of that asset. The entire BPO does not suffer a 100% depreciation so your estimate of 3 years to profit is incorrect. I am talking about the profits of scenario (a) to scenario (c) - that is to say that it will take 3 years for scenario (c) to be more profitable than scenario (a). All 3 scenarios will be continuously in profit if we (quite rightly I would say) assume that the BPO is more or less a fixed asset, and as long as there are no operational losses (like the pos being blown up and that run ruined). Once again to keep things simple I was talking about the profit of ME1 BPCs vs ME0 BPCs. It's hard to guage BPO depreciation when CCP put their own price on such an item. Do something simple like assume 15% to 20% depreciation. If you want to get conservative, do 25% depreciation (selling a BPO for a 20% to 25% discount should turn it around quickly I think, say...to someone else wanting to produce Titan BPC's. Like EBANK! ). Next you'd need to plot out how long you'd run and keep the fuel costs in mind. Also, to address your comments around management...how much time do you estimate someone would need to spend on this once it was setup? EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.21 18:29:00 - [162] Originally by: cosmoray Comments: 1. Not a big fan of ME research in the first year. If there is an argument for the Titans being nerfed, then you should get as many BPC's made in the first year as possible. 2. I think the BOD aids in improving the security of the IPO 3. I do not agree with as large a fee as suggested. The amount of work is limited. The directors have less than 10 minutes work per year, but will be paid at least 1.2B ISK with 8 BPC's being produced. BB will have minimal work. Yes, you have to set up a death star POS and move prints from Jita. Potentially four or five refuellings, and a bit of work selling prints. Does that justify at least a 7.2B management fee assuming 8 BPC's. If 12 its over 10B. In this scenario with the large sums I don't think the pay needs to be that high. Investors shouldn't have to pay 12-18B in management fees a year. I agree. EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 19:10:00 - [163] Originally by: cosmoray 3. I do not agree with as large a fee as suggested. The amount of work is limited. The directors have less than 10 minutes work per year, but will be paid at least 1.2B ISK with 8 BPC's being produced. BB will have minimal work. Yes, you have to set up a death star POS and move prints from Jita. Potentially four or five refuellings, and a bit of work selling prints. Does that justify at least a 7.2B management fee assuming 8 BPC's. If 12 its over 10B. In this scenario with the large sums I don't think the pay needs to be that high. Investors shouldn't have to pay 12-18B in management fees a year. The military side of the security measures don't come for free.
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.21 19:27:00 - [164] Originally by: Hexxx Oh, so we should all cooperate so that we could reduce our costs? That doesn't sound like capitalism to me. Whoever strikes first and has the liquidity to rotate BPO's can research first and stay ahead of competition even if they chase it. By raising the barrier to entry (increasing the ME) you can essentially...at some point...create an effective monopoly on the BPC market because of the barriers to entry. Sure, your margins are lower, but you lock in your dominance of the market and that sounds like an acceptable price to me. Sounds fun to me. Profitable too. Profitable over what time period? As I have shown even 1 ME research will put you back 3 years. The only way to definitely 'stay ahead of the competition' is to continually research ME and gain no income whatsoever. Also ME research has diminishing returns - eventually all competitors will hit a ceiling. Are you going to train ME to stay ahead of the building cost reduction is 100m isk? Maybe someone here can process the figures to find out what the build cost reduction is per ME point? There is no barrier to entry other than the initial capital. You can have an MEx BPO that you sell for 23bn (say 18bn + 5bn build cost reduction) - I can still sell my ME0 BPC for 17bn and undercut you by 1bn. If you took a BPO to ME5, and assuming that this gave you an ability to charge a markup that gave you 35% more income it would take you over 6 years to catch up. The difference here is that you are letting your desire for world dominance cloud your business judgement. Fun maybe. Profitable, think again. Also good luck getting investors in a public offering to invest into a scheme that will not return a dividend for nearly 2 years just so you can have some fun. Originally by: Hexxx Do something simple like assume 15% to 20% depreciation. If you want to get conservative, do 25% depreciation (selling a BPO for a 20% to 25% discount should turn it around quickly I think, say...to someone else wanting to produce Titan BPC's. Like EBANK! ). Next you'd need to plot out how long you'd run and keep the fuel costs in mind. Well sure anyone can just have a guess. I know how to calculate the loss from depreciation - what I can't calculate is CCP changing the amount you buy it from an NPC for. You never know they might listen to the 'ISK sink' calls and put the price up in order to also reduce the number of titans in the game. As for time spent managing this - I've changed my mind. The less time you spend involved the better imo.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.21 19:45:00 - [165] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: cosmoray 3. I do not agree with as large a fee as suggested. The amount of work is limited. The directors have less than 10 minutes work per year, but will be paid at least 1.2B ISK with 8 BPC's being produced. BB will have minimal work. Yes, you have to set up a death star POS and move prints from Jita. Potentially four or five refuellings, and a bit of work selling prints. Does that justify at least a 7.2B management fee assuming 8 BPC's. If 12 its over 10B. In this scenario with the large sums I don't think the pay needs to be that high. Investors shouldn't have to pay 12-18B in management fees a year. The military side of the security measures don't come for free. If you are required to hire mercs, put that as a business expense and take it out of the operating profits when required. There is no need to put it down in advance.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.21 20:13:00 - [166] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: cosmoray 3. I do not agree with as large a fee as suggested. The amount of work is limited. The directors have less than 10 minutes work per year, but will be paid at least 1.2B ISK with 8 BPC's being produced. BB will have minimal work. Yes, you have to set up a death star POS and move prints from Jita. Potentially four or five refuellings, and a bit of work selling prints. Does that justify at least a 7.2B management fee assuming 8 BPC's. If 12 its over 10B. In this scenario with the large sums I don't think the pay needs to be that high. Investors shouldn't have to pay 12-18B in management fees a year. The military side of the security measures don't come for free. If you are required to hire mercs, put that as a business expense and take it out of the operating profits when required. There is no need to put it down in advance. My point was that my management fee removes the need to pay for mercenaries, it's included in my duties.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.21 20:15:00 - [167] Originally by: Bad Bobby The military side of the security measures don't come for free. If you need to call the military you have already failed (unless it is somme random atack). As Cosmo said there is no reason (besides your own benefit) for a permanent fee on something that happens from time to time at worst. EVE Knowledge
Kouryusei Caldari The Bitter Sea Trading Company	Posted - 2009.06.21 20:28:00 - [168] At the end of the day, I'd be willing to put a big pile of money into this. \o/
fugazii Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.21 21:02:00 - [169] Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: fugazii Titans will never be nerfed more than they are currently. CCP would have trillions of isk to reimburse if they did. Since when does CCP do reimbursements when they 'nerf' ships? Did they ever when they 'nerfed' other ships? By how much did demand drop for the Myrmidon after the shield 'nerf' or the drone bandwith 'nerf', now check the same for all the other 'nerfs'. Demand will often return, but it often takes months... The only major ship nerf that has ever effected large amounts of investments by many people was the nano nerf, and yes CCP reimbursed your snake set. There's a slight difference between nerfing shields on a 30m isk ship and nerfing a 80b isk ship.
Cayce Pollard	Posted - 2009.06.22 04:33:00 - [170] Savings in millions per level of ME research as per the median Jita prices for capital components as of the date of my last post ME12764.8 ME2879.43 ME3452.98 ME4326.47 ME5115.04 ME6111.45
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.22 05:22:00 - [171] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Profitable over what time period? As I have shown even 1 ME research will put you back 3 years. The only way to definitely 'stay ahead of the competition' is to continually research ME and gain no income whatsoever. Also ME research has diminishing returns - eventually all competitors will hit a ceiling. Are you going to train ME to stay ahead of the building cost reduction is 100m isk? Maybe someone here can process the figures to find out what the build cost reduction is per ME point? There is no barrier to entry other than the initial capital. You can have an MEx BPO that you sell for 23bn (say 18bn + 5bn build cost reduction) - I can still sell my ME0 BPC for 17bn and undercut you by 1bn. If you took a BPO to ME5, and assuming that this gave you an ability to charge a markup that gave you 35% more income it would take you over 6 years to catch up. The difference here is that you are letting your desire for world dominance cloud your business judgement. Fun maybe. Profitable, think again. Oh, I dunno. Having a few Titan BPO's, say like...maybe 5 or 6, and then rotating a single one through research as you copy the others, could in theory allow you to make money while continuing to pressure the competition more and more. And that's the point right? Originally by: Skarii TuThess Also good luck getting investors in a public offering to invest into a scheme that will not return a dividend for nearly 2 years just so you can have some fun. Who says you have to wait 2 years to pay investors? EBANK - Chairman of the Board \| www.eve-bank.net
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.22 08:04:00 - [172] Quote: Are you going to train ME to stay ahead of the building cost reduction is 100m isk? Maybe someone here can process the figures to find out what the build cost reduction is per ME point? With today's EvECentral prices, amounts in ISK Erebus ME 0 Build cost 55,769,786,380, waste 5,069,980,580 ME 1 Build cost 53,234,796,090, waste 2,534,990,290 ME 2 Build cost 52,410,878,618, waste 1,711,072,818 ME 3 Build cost 51,941,809,924, waste 1,242,004,124 ME 4 Build cost 51,713,801,916, waste 1,013,996,116
Scott Ryder Amarr Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2009.06.22 10:49:00 - [173] Originally by: fugazii Originally by: Cergorach Originally by: fugazii Titans will never be nerfed more than they are currently. CCP would have trillions of isk to reimburse if they did. Since when does CCP do reimbursements when they 'nerf' ships? Did they ever when they 'nerfed' other ships? By how much did demand drop for the Myrmidon after the shield 'nerf' or the drone bandwith 'nerf', now check the same for all the other 'nerfs'. Demand will often return, but it often takes months... The only major ship nerf that has ever effected large amounts of investments by many people was the nano nerf, and yes CCP reimbursed your snake set. There's a slight difference between nerfing shields on a 30m isk ship and nerfing a 80b isk ship. No there isnt. Stop talking about nerfing, lets call it rebalancing. Different aspects of the game will be rebalanced no mather if it costs 2 mil or 80 bill. The pricetag shouldnt mather when it comes to balance
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.22 12:57:00 - [174] Most capitals never benefit beyond the ME 1, aside from the Orca which has a much shorter build cycle and can get your ROI much sooner.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.22 13:23:00 - [175] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Are you going to train ME to stay ahead of the building cost reduction is 100m isk? Maybe someone here can process the figures to find out what the build cost reduction is per ME point? With today's EvECentral prices, amounts in ISK Erebus ME 0 Build cost 55,769,786,380, waste 5,069,980,580 ME 1 Build cost 53,234,796,090, waste 2,534,990,290 ME 2 Build cost 52,410,878,618, waste 1,711,072,818 ME 3 Build cost 51,941,809,924, waste 1,242,004,124 ME 4 Build cost 51,713,801,916, waste 1,013,996,116 Obviously the ME wouldnt be researched beyond ME1 but it appears that even this isnt worth it. My gut feeling is to research them to ME1 and run em till the end of the titans but my gut wont overcome the math. Should crack down a decision on this BB or else leave it to a vote when it launches.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:09:00 - [176] Originally by: Saehta Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Are you going to train ME to stay ahead of the building cost reduction is 100m isk? Maybe someone here can process the figures to find out what the build cost reduction is per ME point? With today's EvECentral prices, amounts in ISK Erebus ME 0 Build cost 55,769,786,380, waste 5,069,980,580 ME 1 Build cost 53,234,796,090, waste 2,534,990,290 ME 2 Build cost 52,410,878,618, waste 1,711,072,818 ME 3 Build cost 51,941,809,924, waste 1,242,004,124 ME 4 Build cost 51,713,801,916, waste 1,013,996,116 Obviously the ME wouldnt be researched beyond ME1 but it appears that even this isnt worth it. My gut feeling is to research them to ME1 and run em till the end of the titans but my gut wont overcome the math. Should crack down a decision on this BB or else leave it to a vote when it launches. We know that a ME1 BPC is worth 2.5m more than a ME0 one. We can't say how much a ME1 BPO will be worth at the end of the project when compared to a ME0 one, but we can expect there to be a difference. We can't expect to sell a ME0 BPO for NPC price when it comes to liquidation. We have to make up the loss in value in the BPO at some point, either by selling more BPCs and returning extra dividends to compensate for the loss in value of your investment or by performing ME research so that the BPOs retain their value. Personally, I find the combination of increased BPO value at liquidation and higher value of BPCs throughout the project to be a compelling justification for researching to ME1 at the start of the project. I elected to go for researching them in alternating pairs rather than all at once in order to allow a dividend to be paid after 4 months, as opposed to researching them all at the outset which although technically better would leave investors waiting 8 months for their first payout. This is the plan that I'm backing and unless one of you can provide me with compelling figures to disuade me, which do not just focus on one part of the problem, that's the decision I would make. Also, to those that say that a 6% management fee for my involvement is too high, I will have to maintain an extra account to support the 3 alts that will be needed specifically to run this operation. I will be doing so with money from my own RL pocket, there will be no GTC costs charged to this venture. In my view, this along with the various other duties I must perform and the benefits I bring to the venture justify my fee. If you disagree, you are welcome to vote with your feet, but I am not interested in running this for less.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:19:00 - [177] i hope you mean 2.5B and not 2.5M... if ME1 raised the price with 2.5M per BPC it would indeed be a waste! TMPI
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:20:00 - [178] Edited by: Saehta on 22/06/2009 14:21:44 I scrolled back through pages 3-6 and cant find a decision on BOD. I do favor this over just BB running the IPO. I am also fine with the management cost. Changing gears back to the BOD. I am curious as to the % for the BOD. Is it 4% cut? Also how is the headway coming on the selection process? EDIT ME1 reduces 2.5 bil waste. I would assume that it would not increase the BPC price by 2.5 billion but would be more than a few million
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:33:00 - [179] Originally by: Saehta Changing gears back to the BOD. I am curious as to the % for the BOD. Is it 4% cut? Also how is the headway coming on the selection process? My intention was to pay each of the trustees a 1% cut of the profits. The total for 4 trustees would therefore be 4%. Kazzac and AC155 have agreed to be trustees. Proton Power volunteered further back in the thread, but I haven't had a chance to speak to him about it. I haven't been able to catch Hexxx or Shar online yet. Although I have eve-mailed Hexxx on the subject. Should I be unable to secure 4 of these people, I will cast the net wider.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:45:00 - [180] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta Changing gears back to the BOD. I am curious as to the % for the BOD. Is it 4% cut? Also how is the headway coming on the selection process? My intention was to pay each of the trustees a 1% cut of the profits. The total for 4 trustees would therefore be 4%. Kazzac and AC155 have agreed to be trustees. Proton Power volunteered further back in the thread, but I haven't had a chance to speak to him about it. I haven't been able to catch Hexxx or Shar online yet. Although I have eve-mailed Hexxx on the subject. Should I be unable to secure 4 of these people, I will cast the net wider. I'm not on nearly enough. I just don't login that often.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.22 14:48:00 - [181] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Saehta Changing gears back to the BOD. I am curious as to the % for the BOD. Is it 4% cut? Also how is the headway coming on the selection process? My intention was to pay each of the trustees a 1% cut of the profits. The total for 4 trustees would therefore be 4%. Kazzac and AC155 have agreed to be trustees. Proton Power volunteered further back in the thread, but I haven't had a chance to speak to him about it. I haven't been able to catch Hexxx or Shar online yet. Although I have eve-mailed Hexxx on the subject. Should I be unable to secure 4 of these people, I will cast the net wider. I am in just need to know what you expect from me. Long as I agree with terms which I really dont see to be an issue will do what ever is needed. ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:23:00 - [182] Shar has agreed to be trustee #4, giving us: Kazzac Elentria AC155 Proton Power (aka Evalf) Shar Tegral (aka Hawkblade) Seems like a good bunch to me! Their job will be: 1. To vote against any unlock votes unless they have been agreed to in an open public discussion with shareholders that results in a decision to liquidate, relocate or something else sensible. 2. To create a free trial alt to be added to the top secret titan copying corp with director roles so that the corp's assets can be liquidated in the event that I am hit by a bus or otherwise unable to continue. 3. To keep the location of the top secret POS and the identity of the top secret titan copying corp a closely guarded secret. That's it really. I have every faith in their ability to carry out this task. Each trustee has been allocated 1% of the venture's profits as payment for these services. If a trustee wishes they may elect not to take that payment and it will be allocated to the shareholders profit share instead. The choice is theirs.
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:34:00 - [183] Originally by: Bad Bobby Shar has agreed to be trustee #4, giving us: Kazzac Elentria AC155 Proton Power (aka Evalf) Shar Tegral (aka Hawkblade) Seems like a good bunch to me! Their job will be: 1. To vote against any unlock votes unless they have been agreed to in an open public discussion with shareholders that results in a decision to liquidate, relocate or something else sensible. 2. To create a free trial alt to be added to the top secret titan copying corp with director roles so that the corp's assets can be liquidated in the event that I am hit by a bus or otherwise unable to continue. 3. To keep the location of the top secret POS and the identity of the top secret titan copying corp a closely guarded secret. That's it really. I have every faith in their ability to carry out this task. Each trustee has been allocated 1% of the venture's profits as payment for these services. If a trustee wishes they may elect not to take that payment and it will be allocated to the shareholders profit share instead. The choice is theirs. Easy enough, just send me (evalf prefered if not proton works as well) an eve mail of what corp and were to apply not sure if your getting corp setup prior to opening this up for public or not. Per the 1% I can care less about it tbh, just throw mine to share holders.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:52:00 - [184] Our BPO's will soon be out of ME/PE and into copying. Supply of copies will be increasing somewhat...
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:54:00 - [185] Originally by: eVaLF Easy enough, just send me (evalf prefered if not proton works as well) an eve mail of what corp and were to apply not sure if your getting corp setup prior to opening this up for public or not. Per the 1% I can care less about it tbh, just throw mine to share holders. Could not have said it better myself.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 05:55:00 - [186] Originally by: eVaLF Easy enough, just send me (evalf prefered if not proton works as well) an eve mail of what corp and were to apply not sure if your getting corp setup prior to opening this up for public or not. Will do. We will keep all details pertaining to that corp between myself and the trustees, including the date of it's creation regardless of whether that is in the past or the future. Originally by: eVaLF Per the 1% I can care less about it tbh, just throw mine to share holders. I expected as much, but I preferred to offer the isk and have it turned down than demand these services for free. Thanks for comming on board guys.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:32:00 - [187] Originally by: Leowen Edited by: Leowen on 25/06/2009 06:28:47 Note to self: Don't post after 5 bottles of Magners Pear! Best not to touch that filthy stuff. The concept of a 'fasionable' cider is so wrong I don't know where to start. Give me a good rustic scrumpy or a real ale over that fruitier's **** any day. In response to the unedited post, I expect competition and I have never feared it. We can try to get along by spreading out our sales to promote good profits for all, as I am doing based on casual discussions with other rivals, or we can get out the fighting sticks and go to war over it... either way has it's appeal.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:49:00 - [188] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: eVaLF Easy enough, just send me (evalf prefered if not proton works as well) an eve mail of what corp and were to apply not sure if your getting corp setup prior to opening this up for public or not. Per the 1% I can care less about it tbh, just throw mine to share holders. Could not have said it better myself. What they said
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 14:52:00 - [189] So, it looks like we have got to the stage where a launch is possible. So we now need to thrash out the exact manner and process of the launch. Here is my suggestion: 1. I make a seperate launch post, linking this thread, so that we can continue discussion here while keeping the launch post less cluttered and clearer for all to understand. This is not an effort to obscure the conversation that has occured here, this thread will be clearly linked to ensure that the information and discussion here is available to all investors. 2. We take reservations up to 265 billion isk in total. No isk is to be sent to anyone at this stage. 3. Once we have finished reservations and found the limit of the available funding, we will decide on the number of BPOs to be involved in the operation. Each BPO will have a block of the funding (265b max) allocated to it as follows: Block 1 = 70b (Leviathan BPO and setup costs) Block 2 = 66b (Erebus BPO) Block 3 = 68b (Avatar BPO) Block 4 = 61b (Ragnarok BPO) Only completely filled blocks will be used, partially funded blocks will have their reservations cancelled. 4. A vote will be held to create the required number of shares for the blocks we will be launching. 5. The first block of funding will be requested from those that have placed a reservation. Only those who's reservation falls within the first block will send their isk. This will be used to purchase the first BPO etc and that BPO will be locked down under trustee control before we go any further. The first block of shares will be distributed. 6, 7 & 8. The same as the above for blocks 2-4 as required. 9. The project goes live and the plan that has already been discussed will be put into action. If this approach meets with general agreement and no holes need patching, I will go ahead and create the launch post. Given that the sums of isk are large and it may take time for people to gather funds for investment and due to the need for several votes for share creation and lockdown and the need for several seperate stages where I must wait for funds to be sent, I believe it is prudent to put a fairly long timescale on this process. I will therefore set aside 30 days from the launch post creation for reservations to be made, or until all shares are reserved, whichever comes first. Thereafter I will set a timescale of 15 days for steps 3-8 to be actioned. So step 9, the actual start of the operation, will be timetabled for 45 days from the launch post.
Dzil Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.06.25 14:55:00 - [190] Originally by: Bad Bobby In response to the unedited post, I expect competition and I have never feared it. We can try to get along by spreading out our sales to promote good profits for all, as I am doing based on casual discussions with other rivals, or we can get out the fighting sticks and go to war over it... either way has it's appeal. WTB Graphic novel depicting MD carebear war. I'm not sure whether it would be better doing the four-eyed nerd or a satircal anime-style Dragonball look with a giant "BB" logo on his chest. BB: "This is where it ends, KAZZAC! There's no way you can block my TITAN BPC PRICE SLASH! Bystander: "****! This API reader shows his NAV is OVER 9000 G's! >.> <.< Sorry, carry on. ---------------------- Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings ----------------------
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 15:06:00 - [191] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Bad Bobby In response to the unedited post, I expect competition and I have never feared it. We can try to get along by spreading out our sales to promote good profits for all, as I am doing based on casual discussions with other rivals, or we can get out the fighting sticks and go to war over it... either way has it's appeal. WTB Graphic novel depicting MD carebear war. I'm not sure whether it would be better doing the four-eyed nerd or a satircal anime-style Dragonball look with a giant "BB" logo on his chest. BB: "This is where it ends, KAZZAC! There's no way you can block my TITAN BPC PRICE SLASH! Bystander: "****! This API reader shows his NAV is OVER 9000 G's! >.> <.< Sorry, carry on. I approve this message.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2009.06.25 15:14:00 - [192] Originally by: Bad Bobby Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Bad Bobby In response to the unedited post, I expect competition and I have never feared it. We can try to get along by spreading out our sales to promote good profits for all, as I am doing based on casual discussions with other rivals, or we can get out the fighting sticks and go to war over it... either way has it's appeal. WTB Graphic novel depicting MD carebear war. I'm not sure whether it would be better doing the four-eyed nerd or a satircal anime-style Dragonball look with a giant "BB" logo on his chest. BB: "This is where it ends, KAZZAC! There's no way you can block my TITAN BPC PRICE SLASH! Bystander: "****! This API reader shows his NAV is OVER 9000 G's! >.> <.< Sorry, carry on. I approve this message. Meh, not enough nerd references. 6/10. Could do better.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.06.25 15:32:00 - [193] Originally by: Bad Bobby 5. The first block of funding will be requested from those that have placed a reservation. Only those who's reservation falls within the first block will send their isk. This will be used to purchase the first BPO etc and that BPO will be locked down under trustee control before we go any further. The first block of shares will be distributed. Given that the sums of isk are large and it may take time for people to gather funds for investment and due to the need for several votes for share creation and lockdown and the need for several seperate stages where I must wait for funds to be sent, I believe it is prudent to put a fairly long timescale on this process. I will therefore set aside 30 days from the launch post creation for reservations to be made, or until all shares are reserved, whichever comes first. Thereafter I will set a timescale of 15 days for steps 3-8 to be actioned. So step 9, the actual start of the operation, will be timetabled for 45 days from the launch post. So am I right in thinking there is a 15 day window per Block where you could be holding up to 70 bil of funds with no investor protection? If so, any thoughts for reducing this without jeopardising the secrecy of corps names etc?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 15:37:00 - [194] Originally by: Dzil WTB Graphic novel depicting MD carebear war. I'm not sure whether it would be better doing the four-eyed nerd or a satircal anime-style Dragonball look with a giant "BB" logo on his chest. BB: "This is where it ends, KAZZAC! There's no way you can block my TITAN BPC PRICE SLASH! Bystander: "****! This API reader shows his NAV is OVER 9000 G's! >.> <.< Sorry, carry on. She's gone plaid
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:08:00 - [195] Originally by: Bad Bobby 1. To vote against any unlock votes unless they have been agreed to in an open public discussion with shareholders that results in a decision to liquidate, relocate or something else sensible. So we can hold it against them when they all miss that well-timed 24h unlock vote?
Dzil Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:11:00 - [196] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Bad Bobby The military side of the security measures don't come for free. If you need to call the military you have already failed (unless it is somme random atack). As Cosmo said there is no reason (besides your own benefit) for a permanent fee on something that happens from time to time at worst. That's the risk he's aiming to mitigate though. A random attack would threaten billions of isk. If he's taking care of that "off the books", there's no reason for the aggressor to realise what they stumbled upon. If the details of the IPO force him to report it as a military expense, it won't take much at all for the aggressor to realise the heavy enterprise they stumbled upon. I think this investment is much safer if military assaults on the research installation are not publicly reported, confirming and revealing its location to any adversaries. Now, if the station were destroyed and profits were being impacted - that's another story. BB, does your management fee and promise of military support include insurance against a successful attack on the POS? IE would you opt to just silently payout the dividends and absorb the loss, to avoid disclosing the location/identity of the holding corp?
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:44:00 - [197] Originally by: Jackie Fisher So am I right in thinking there is a 15 day window per Block where you could be holding up to 70 bil of funds with no investor protection? If so, any thoughts for reducing this without jeopardising the secrecy of corps names etc? No, the window will not be 15 days per block but 15 days total for all 4 blocks to be completed. Yes, I will have to be trusted with 70b in funds at most, during that period and I will have to be trusted with similar sums during the course of the IPO. I have suggested all the security measures I can think of, I'm open to ideas and have been throughout this discussion. While we could entrust the 70b to a third party and have them purchase, transport and lock down the BPOs you will still be trusting someone with 70b with no controls and I believe I am pretty much as good a person to trust in this case as any other.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:46:00 - [198] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Bad Bobby 1. To vote against any unlock votes unless they have been agreed to in an open public discussion with shareholders that results in a decision to liquidate, relocate or something else sensible. So we can hold it against them when they all miss that well-timed 24h unlock vote? Yes. I can only make use of the tools CCP give me, the lockdown vote system may be limited and generally poor but that is all I really have to work with. At least you only need two of the four trustees to be paying attention to stop me from unlocking the BPOs and disappearing with them. Have you any suggestions to improve the security and prevent these issues?
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:49:00 - [199] Originally by: Dzil I think this investment is much safer if military assaults on the research installation are not publicly reported, confirming and revealing its location to any adversaries. Now, if the station were destroyed and profits were being impacted - that's another story. BB, does your management fee and promise of military support include insurance against a successful attack on the POS? IE would you opt to just silently payout the dividends and absorb the loss, to avoid disclosing the location/identity of the holding corp? There is a "war chest" included in the funds we are raising that will allow me to handle minor losses without reporting them. Obviously any loss that resulted in substantially reduced profits would have to be reported somehow, but I will be able to delay reporting such an event so that the link between the particular POS attack and this venture could be masked.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:09:00 - [200] What would prevent you from not paying dividends? This is a major risk for investors and I donÆt think it has been touch at all in this thread. A BOD and locked BPOs wonÆt prevent that.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:15:00 - [201] Originally by: Block Ukx What would prevent you from not paying dividends? This is a major risk for investors and I donÆt think it has been touch at all in this thread. A BOD and locked BPOs wonÆt prevent that. I believe the board of trustees could attempt to vote me out, take over the operation and liquidate, but I could stop them by removing their director roles. Simply refusing to pay and keeping all the profits for myself is a possibility, I only have my reputation and the value that has both now and in the future to balance against that. Personally I do not think this is the last major venture I will carry out, I think there are places for me to go beyond this and I would not want to destroy that by scamming here. Obviously thats just words, so you all have to make your own decision about the level of trust you have for me.
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:19:00 - [202] Originally by: Bad Bobby ... you all have to make your own decision about the level of trust you have for me. You are asking people to trust you with 280 Billion ISK, not 70 Billion.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:28:00 - [203] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Bad Bobby ... you all have to make your own decision about the level of trust you have for me. You are asking people to trust you with 280 Billion ISK, not 70 Billion. It's 265 billion, but yes. I am asking people to trust me with up to 265 billion with as many controlls in place as we can come up with. I am asking people to trust me with around 70 billion without any controls beyond my desire to protect my reputation. Depending on timing and how many BPCs are in my control it could be a little more on both totals. Yes, I am asking people to trust me about as much as they trust various other notables involved in MD, banks and other worthy institutions within eve. I may be getting above myself, but I felt that now was the time to make a major launch in MD and I'm happy to be testing the limits of my reputation and the trust people have for me.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:35:00 - [204] If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. Then you more or less are locked into a staring match of who misses that 24hr unlock deadline unless someone relents first. Alternatively you could also broker the sales through yet ANOTHER third party who would handle the sales, dividends, supplies, mgt payments. IN this way BB never really has control over anything except at the start of the operation when the prints are to be purchased and moved.
Cayce Pollard	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:35:00 - [205] Something thatÆs confusing to me, and I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere, how are the BOD supposed to be diligent and check for unlock votes if they are on lapsed trial accounts?
Cayce Pollard	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:39:00 - [206] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. Then you more or less are locked into a staring match of who misses that 24hr unlock deadline unless someone relents first. Alternatively you could also broker the sales through yet ANOTHER third party who would handle the sales, dividends, supplies, mgt payments. IN this way BB never really has control over anything except at the start of the operation when the prints are to be purchased and moved. Only if the BPOs are not in a station with copy slots. It would cut down on the speed with which they could be copied but he could still crank them out.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:40:00 - [207] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. Then you more or less are locked into a staring match of who misses that 24hr unlock deadline unless someone relents first. I think there are many ways that the trustees, investors, MD and general EVE population can make my life difficult in response to me pulling any kind of stunt with this. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Alternatively you could also broker the sales through yet ANOTHER third party who would handle the sales, dividends, supplies, mgt payments. IN this way BB never really has control over anything except at the start of the operation when the prints are to be purchased and moved. I think at this point the number of people involved in this operation and it's security becomes rather silly. We would still, after all, have to find yet another person we are happy to hold on to so much isk.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:42:00 - [208] Originally by: Cayce Pollard Something thatÆs confusing to me, and I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere, how are the BOD supposed to be diligent and check for unlock votes if they are on lapsed trial accounts? They will hold the shares in the wallets of their active characters, the trial accounts are there for hit-by-a-bus liquidation purposes and are entirely unrelated to the lockdown provisions. It's two seperate security measures aimed at two different things.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:44:00 - [209] Originally by: Cayce Pollard Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. Then you more or less are locked into a staring match of who misses that 24hr unlock deadline unless someone relents first. Alternatively you could also broker the sales through yet ANOTHER third party who would handle the sales, dividends, supplies, mgt payments. IN this way BB never really has control over anything except at the start of the operation when the prints are to be purchased and moved. Only if the BPOs are not in a station with copy slots. It would cut down on the speed with which they could be copied but he could still crank them out. If you would prefer I can select a NPC station without copy slots and the trustees can confirm that, personally I think it is best not to do this for various reasons, but if the investors insist upon it then it is entirely possible.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:46:00 - [210] Originally by: Cayce Pollard Something thatÆs confusing to me, and I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere, how are the BOD supposed to be diligent and check for unlock votes if they are on lapsed trial accounts? Well, speaking for myself, the toon I'm going to be using is on my main account. Ryu Jin'ma has some post history as I used him for doing auctions anonymous of me. That function became totally unnecessary so I found other uses for him. I do believe that Kazuo should be able to confirm that indeed he is on my account as well. (If Kazuo has saved audit info from a while back.)
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:47:00 - [211] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. OK, so he finishes copying, kicks everyone out, destroys the POS, sells and keeps profits. He then installs a new POS to start the new set of copies. How knowing the system location benefits the shareholders? Are you suggesting they blow up every POS in that system?
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:50:00 - [212] Originally by: Block Ukx He then installs a new POS to start the new set of copies. How knowing the system location benefits the shareholders? Are you suggesting they blow up every POS in that system? If you know the corp, you don't have to blow up every pos in that system. Just the ones BB would need.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:51:00 - [213] Originally by: Bad Bobby I am asking people to trust me with up to 265 billion with as many controlls in place as we can come up with. The problem is the controls are not up to scratch, they are barely worth the effort. To the four individuals that stepped up to join "the board" I strongly suggest you rethink your position. You are putting your name forward as some level of security when in fact you will have no control over the CEO walking away with everything. Bad Bobby, the only option I can see would be to have the shares spread as thin as possible amongst public investors with a reason to shout and scream at the board and vote no for unlocks. I understand how unattractive this is; but when it comes to 280b in ISK, and considering recent events, I don't think MD should be entertaining something so risky.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:53:00 - [214] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Kazzac Elentria If refusal to pay divs is done, the BOD could publicly state the location of the POS and prints. In this way they essentially become useless as you'll never be able to make another copy ever again. OK, so he finishes copying, kicks everyone out, destroys the POS, sells and keeps profits. He then installs a new POS to start the new set of copies. How knowing the system location benefits the shareholders? Are you suggesting they blow up every POS in that system? Would it not have to be a POS under the same corp unless I managed to unlock the BPOs, in which case the whole concept is blown open by my being able to do whatever I like? Clearly, there are ways life could be made hard for me. Clearly, there are a ways to make it difficult for me to scam. We have tried rather hard over the life of this thread to come up with a decent system to deal with the risks as best as we can. I'm still open for further suggestions and revisions of the plan that we have devised. Block, do you have a solution for the problem in mind?
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:55:00 - [215] What happens to locked-BPOs when you refuse to pay the station rental fee?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:56:00 - [216] Originally by: Block Ukx OK, so he finishes copying, kicks everyone out, destroys the POS, sells and keeps profits. He then installs a new POS to start the new set of copies. How knowing the system location benefits the shareholders? Are you suggesting they blow up every POS in that system? For 265b in assets? Yes But Im an ass like that and would spend 50b to grief someone
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 17:59:00 - [217] Originally by: Block Ukx What happens to locked-BPOs when you refuse to pay the station rental fee? Like all assets they go to impounded. However if the CEO or director attempts to pay the station rental fee to get them out of impound it will require that the items be unlocked first. When you go the corporate assets tab and attempt to unlock it will initiate the unlock vote. So essentially the same thing of a stalemate.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:00:00 - [218] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Bad Bobby I am asking people to trust me with up to 265 billion with as many controlls in place as we can come up with. The problem is the controls are not up to scratch, they are barely worth the effort. To the four individuals that stepped up to join "the board" I strongly suggest you rethink your position. You are putting your name forward as some level of security when in fact you will have no control over the CEO walking away with everything. Bad Bobby, the only option I can see would be to have the shares spread as thin as possible amongst public investors with a reason to shout and scream at the board and vote no for unlocks. I understand how unattractive this is; but when it comes to 280b in ISK, and considering recent events, I don't think MD should be entertaining something so risky. The problem with that is it would mean the location of the tower and the BPOs would be public knowledge and this amplifies another of the risks of the operation. Maintaining POS security, defending against frequent have-a-go attacks, shipping from a known location to a known marketplace, all these issues would become much more troublesome. I feel that secrecy of corp and location is the best defence against these issues and I think we would have to rethink the entire enterprise without it. The alternative is to have the POS and product delivery under semi-permanent guard from a heavy fleet, which isn't something that can easily be worked into the profit calculations with any good result.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:07:00 - [219] Originally by: Bad Bobby The problem with that is it would mean the location of the tower and the BPOs would be public knowledge and this amplifies another of the risks of the operation. Maintaining POS security, defending against frequent have-a-go attacks, shipping from a known location to a known marketplace, all these issues would become much more troublesome. I feel that secrecy of corp and location is the best defence against these issues and I think we would have to rethink the entire enterprise without it. The alternative is to have the POS and product delivery under semi-permanent guard from a heavy fleet, which isn't something that can easily be worked into the profit calculations with any good result. The threat of lost profit is less than the threat of total capital loss. Whilst I see you're trying your best to mitigate any risk on any side, there simply is no way to safely secure this - there will always be risk, the most likely of which is complete loss. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:12:00 - [220] Originally by: Ray McCormack To the four individuals that stepped up to join "the board" I strongly suggest you rethink your position. You are putting your name forward as some level of security when in fact you will have no control over the CEO walking away with everything. Thanks Ray. Without you I would have no way of knowing what I am doing. Shall I send you a Tech II cookie in the way of thanks? Now, my security involvement is quite clear. There are potential gaps in game mechanics, there are limited responses. These are being spelled out, identified, and attempts at addressing are taking place. So I've no worries about my level of involvement here. I should add: I'm tangentially connected to another outfit doing the same thing as this IPO. Ray is also connected with that outfit. I am not pushing this IPO on its merits nor should Ray be pooh-poohing the IPO on its merits without disclosing that fact. Bobby just asked me if I wouldn't mind and I said yes... prior to reading this thread. In fact I absolutely insisted that he keep my involvement as simplified, and clear, as possible. If not for the fact that I had to stand up and identify myself I'd be ecstatic to remain anonymous or, at least, greatly downplayed. That being said, I appreciate your comments in all other regards. You are absolutely right in your view of things though your possible solution is either inject more risk into the IPO or simply not have the IPO.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:19:00 - [221] Shar, you realise fully that your half-arsed disclosure is against my express wishes. To even intimate my involvement publicly is extremely disrespectful.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:20:00 - [222] Originally by: Ray McCormack To the four individuals that stepped up to join "the board" I strongly suggest you rethink your position. You are putting your name forward as some level of security when in fact you will have no control over the CEO walking away with everything. I would hope that potential investors would read this thread and understand that the four individuals only exist to help serve a stalemate should the CEO attempt to walk away with the farm.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:21:00 - [223] Originally by: HawkBlade That being said, I appreciate your comments in all other regards. You are absolutely right in your view of things though your possible solution is either inject more risk into the IPO or simply not have the IPO. This is basically my thoughts on this. I do understand everyone's concerns and if it were in my power to clear them all up I would. I am prepared to balance various risks to get the best deal for my investors and I do not believe that a public "attack this" sign is the correct balance. If the options are to accept these known risks or have no IPO then that decision will have to be left until the launch where each potential investor can make their own determination on it.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2009.06.25 18:29:00 - [224] There is an interesting discussion on the forums somewhere here started by Eefrit as to the best effective setup for a board securing a private corporation by lockdown vote. My suggestion would be to read that. All I ask is for you to make the potential investor specifically aware of the risks involved, and that your measures only go part way towards mitigating them. WTS Tech II Component BPO Sets \| Auction Prowler
eVaLF Delivery Luck	Posted - 2009.06.25 19:29:00 - [225] One way to resolve some is make one of the BOD the ceo of the corp as well. Now this would put the CEO into the posistion he could take the BPO's instead, so its really do you trust one of the BOD more than Bad Bobby. Personally I am promising nothing other than I will hold shares and sign in pretty much daily on my accounts. I will be taking these shares and distributing them between my mains so that I catch any votes. ----- POS FUEL DELIVERY & HIGH & LOW SEC FREIGHTER SERVICES
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.25 19:32:00 - [226] Originally by: eVaLF One way to resolve some is make one of the BOD the ceo of the corp as well. Now this would put the CEO into the posistion he could take the BPO's instead, so its really do you trust one of the BOD more than Bad Bobby. Personally I am promising nothing other than I will hold shares and sign in pretty much daily on my accounts. I will be taking these shares and distributing them between my mains so that I catch any votes. more or less what I plan to do as well. 1 Share to the alt, rest to the main right here. That way I can more or less act in majority on the vote since I log in at least once every 24h and have for the past 3+ years
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.26 06:48:00 - [227] Launch posted here. Discussion can continue in this thread however, unless you feel your comments are needed in the launch thread.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.06.26 07:21:00 - [228] From the launch thread it seems like the money from investors will be locked up for at least four months before starting to have any benifit to them. I dont really know why I'm pointing this out except that it makes, one, or maybe just me, hesitate comiting large sums towards the venture. Other then that it does look pretty exciteing. Another thing is that over a year despite the security of your POS, I'd imagine that it could very well be attacked in that time, dampening the year end returns. How well has that been taken into account?
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2009.06.26 08:36:00 - [229] Originally by: Jin Nib over a year despite the security of your POS, I'd imagine that it could very well be attacked in that time, dampening the year end returns. How well has that been taken into account? In my time running hi-sec research POSes, over 2 years, I have been through countless wars. I believe I've been through something like 8 wars in the last 8 months. In those 2 years I have had one of my POSes attacked on one occasion and that attack was repelled dispite having 30 Russians knocking on it's shields. In the alliance to which I belong we have lost 2 towers to wars as far as I am aware, one was an offline abandoned tower and the other was poorly fitted and largely undefended. Also I have been involved in the takedown of a number of hi-sec towers myself, so I know what is involved from the attackers point of view. Furthermore I've been involved in many POS defences and takedowns in low-sec and 0.0. So my knowledge of POS warfare in general is pretty good. So I speak from a position of knowledge and confidence when I say that there is a big difference between attacking a hi-sec tower and destroying a hi-sec tower. We are not talking about something that can be attempted by any band of ruffians on a jolly through hi-sec, they need to be organised, well equipped, dedicated and then need to bring considerable numbers. For a group like this to spend it's time popping random hi-sec towers isn't common. The groups like this that do exist tend to attack towers with lots of expensive labs and few defences, there are plenty of towers like this throughout hi-sec, attacking a well armed deathstar with only a small number of labs is far less profitable for them and far less likely. It is entirely possible that the POS will come under a war dec and be attacked at some point, but I think it highly unlikely that any such attack will be a serious threat. If, on the other hand, the identity of the tower/corp is discovered then I could understand some serious forces comming to attack it but that is an entirely difference cirumstance. In the case that the tower is attacked and reinforced, I will be able to bring other forces to defend it. But obviously I am not going to do that unless I consider the threat to be significant and only once the tower is reinforced. Bringing 100 men to defend a lonely hi-sec tower at the first sign of a war-dec would be a little too high profile, considering the need for secrecy here.
Stafen Killer Koalas	Posted - 2009.06.26 15:58:00 - [230] I think BB is not going to be payed enough to stop him running off with the 4 titan BPCs from one 4month copy cycle. His total payment for this enterprise is 6% Total for first 12 months = 120b So his income for one year is 120 * 6% = 7.2b And if he runs off with 4 titan BPC (which he will find very easy to do before anyone notices), he could get 15b * 4 = 60b This for a third of the work he can get 8 times the profit, a very strong motivator to scam. All depends how much BB values his reputation. (Just posting this as it came into my head and I do not think anyone has mentioned it)
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.06.26 16:04:00 - [231] Originally by: Stafen I think BB is not going to be payed enough to stop him running off with the 4 titan BPCs from one 4month copy cycle. His total payment for this enterprise is 6% Total for first 12 months = 120b So his income for one year is 120 * 6% = 7.2b And if he runs off with 4 titan BPC (which he will find very easy to do before anyone notices), he could get 15b * 4 = 60b This for a third of the work he can get 8 times the profit, a very strong motivator to scam. All depends how much BB values his reputation. (Just posting this as it came into my head and I do not think anyone has mentioned it) There is the question of scale as well. If he walks with 4 BPCs he'll actually only be netting 52b since his loss of reputation + profit earned is what he'll be trading against it. So the question, as eValF so rightly asked me in another thread, would be how much total assets have you been in control of at any single one time?
Breaker77 Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.26 16:08:00 - [232] Originally by: Stafen So his income for one year is 120 * 6% = 7.2b If that number is correct why would he want to steal the BPOs and run off with them?? Seriously, 5 minutes of work a month to keep the towers fueled, if that, and maybe 5 minutes of work to move the BPCs and contract them out. I would love to make 7.2 billion ISK a year for only playing 5 minutes a month. IMO the only real problem this might have is boredom. I can just see him forgetting to deliver a BPC and starting a new one after 3 months has passed.
Skarii TuThess Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.06.26 19:58:00 - [233] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Stafen So his income for one year is 120 * 6% = 7.2b If that number is correct why would he want to steal the BPOs and run off with them?? Seriously, 5 minutes of work a month to keep the towers fueled, if that, and maybe 5 minutes of work to move the BPCs and contract them out. I would love to make 7.2 billion ISK a year for only playing 5 minutes a month. IMO the only real problem this might have is boredom. I can just see him forgetting to deliver a BPC and starting a new one after 3 months has passed. I agree - although I'm sure with a 4 month dividend period he'll be getting enough reminders not to forget ;)
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.06.27 03:29:00 - [234] The biggest problem I see investing with trustworthy people is boredom and burnout. At some point people become bored with the game or RL events mean they can't log in and deal with the game. At some point most very long term IPO's need to be handed over, I would say a year so the manager doesn't just quit.
eXistentiA Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.30 15:53:00 - [235] Originally by: Bad Bobby It is entirely possible that the POS will come under a war dec and be attacked at some point, but I think it highly unlikely that any such attack will be a serious threat. If, on the other hand, the identity of the tower/corp is discovered then I could understand some serious forces comming to attack it but that is an entirely difference cirumstance. In the case that the tower is attacked and reinforced, I will be able to bring other forces to defend it. But obviously I am not going to do that unless I consider the threat to be significant and only once the tower is reinforced. Bringing 100 men to defend a lonely hi-sec tower at the first sign of a war-dec would be a little too high profile, considering the need for secrecy here. As an investor i for one would offer assistance in the defence of my investment, and im sure that would be the same for most investors. so if the ** realy did hit the fan im more then confident youd get the support and backing to deal with it ---------- corporate solutions** Professional graphic and webdesigners Free hosting and payments by isk
Scrumpy Joe	Posted - 2009.07.26 11:00:00 - [236] I would like to reserves 2 shares for 2 million Isk.you can reach me in game to verify. thank you
GavinCapacitor	Posted - 2009.07.26 18:19:00 - [237] I've only read through half of this thread, so if I repeat something please excuse me. People seem to be on the fence about doing the ME research. I think it is necessary (will give us an edge) but maybe a compromise is in order, ie. researching ME on one BPO at a time and copying 3. My other question (this might be a bit noob-ish) is are profits split between all investors when any sale is made, or if you invested and got a reserved spot under a certain titan BPO you only see returns when a copy of that BPO sells? ( I wanted in on the avatar BPO when I saw the story, but was just a bit too late)
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:25:00 - [238] Originally by: GavinCapacitor My other question (this might be a bit noob-ish) is are profits split between all investors when any sale is made, or if you invested and got a reserved spot under a certain titan BPO you only see returns when a copy of that BPO sells? ( I wanted in on the avatar BPO when I saw the story, but was just a bit too late) AFAIK, everyone received dividends no matter what BPC sells. I can't imagine Bad Bobby tracking each and every investor and doing a cash transfer just for the block they invested in for a couple of reasons. 1. Impracticle, it give me a headache just looking as the reservation list, much less thinking about all those transfers and the amount to send. 2. Doing a dividend payout through the corp share system is automatic in splitting up who gets what and how much. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.07.27 06:05:00 - [239] Breaker has it right. The blocks are only for the purpose of figuring out how many BPOs we can afford to buy, once the IPO launches every investor will be treated the same and will receive dividends when any profits are made by selling any BPCs. Also, I agree, looking at the reservation list makes my head spin. There is no way I am ever going to attempt a manual dividend on that list, I will be using the in-game share system. The other advantage of the in-game share system is that you can sell your shares on without causing me an additional book-keeping headache.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.07.27 12:24:00 - [240] It might be possible but if LoW exchange virtualized shares work out.... it could solve your headaches right quick.
Shamasu	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:02:00 - [241] Edited by: Shamasu on 30/07/2009 19:32:03 So it looks like you'll only get enough capital to get 3 BPOs (but who knows, hope for the best), how is that going to change the number of copies you're going to make in the first year? 2, 1, 3 ?
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.11 13:58:00 - [242] From this thread; Originally by: Titans 4U Dividends will be paid as and when profits occur. This is expected to be every 4 months. Chapter 10 - Launch Process 1. I will take reservations up to 265 billion isk in total. No isk is to be sent to anyone at this stage. This stage will run for 30 days or until all shares are reserved. The long duration is due to the large amounts of isk involved, the time it can take for people to gather their funds and to allow further time for discussion with shareholders. 2. Once we have finished reservations and found the limit of the available funding, we will decide on the number of BPOs to be involved in the operation. Each BPO will have a block of funding allocated to it as follows: Block 1 = 70b (Leviathan BPO and setup costs) Block 2 = 66b (Erebus BPO) Block 3 = 68b (Avatar BPO) Block 4 = 61b (Ragnarok BPO) Only completely filled blocks will be used, partially funded blocks will have their reservations cancelled. 3. A vote will be held to create the required number of shares for the blocks we will be launching with. 4. Each block of funding will be requested, one block at a time, from those that have placed a reservation. Only those who's reservation falls within a particular block will be asked to send their isk. This will be used to purchase a BPO and that BPO will be locked down under trustee control before we go any futher and the shares for that block will be distributed. This way only one BPO will be unlocked at any one time and I will only have the funds for one BPO in my hands at any time during the launch. As there will be up to 4 rounds to this process, one for each block/BPO, I am allocating 15 days to this part of the process. 5. The project goes live. Can you provide a date as to when this "buying in" period will end? "I am allocating 15 days to this part of the process" from when? It looks like the whole IPO will not even make it to 2 BPO/blocks . Yes, I have another 125 million being requested, but I would prefer to keep it until it looks like the second BPO/block is nearing completion, and I did state here that I would prefer to only invest 125 million in each BPO/block, although I would be willing to pay it if necessary to complete a BPO/block. Has the current Leviathan BPO gone into copying or research? The original plan was for two in research and two copying, with only one (so far?) what is the plan? -- MBMDREP -- DesuSigs
Lukriss Lone Star Academy Lone Star Partners	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:11:00 - [243] Originally by: Marcus Baltar and I did state here that I would prefer to only invest 125 million in each BPO/block, although I would be willing to pay it if necessary to complete a BPO/block. Why do you want to invest in the different blocks as far as i've understood everyone gets paid everytime a bpc is sold. Originally by: Redloc I want to gank hulks in high sec! I have a dedicated miner account so I have the funds to throw away.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:24:00 - [244] Originally by: Shamasu So it looks like you'll only get enough capital to get 3 BPOs (but who knows, hope for the best), how is that going to change the number of copies you're going to make in the first year? 2, 1, 3 ? If we purchase 3 BPOs: 1st Period: BPO 1 will be copied and BPOs 2 and 3 will be researched. We produce 1 BPC during this period. 2nd Period: BPO 1 will be researched and BPOs 2 and 3 will be copied. We produce 2 BPC during this period. 3rd Period: All three BPOs will be copied. We produce 3 BPC during this period. Total for the first year: 6 BPCs If we purchase 2 BPOs: 1st Period: BPO 1 will be copied and BPO 2 will be researched. We produce 1 BPC during this period. 2nd Period: BPO 1 will be researched and BPO 2 will be copied. We produce 1 BPC during this period. 3rd Period: Both BPOs will be copied. We produce 2 BPC during this period. Total for the first year: 4 BPCs
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:47:00 - [245] Originally by: Marcus Baltar Can you provide a date as to when this "buying in" period will end? Not really, as it depends on how quickly I can get the isk from those that have placed reservations. The "15 days" was an estimate, it may take a few days longer. It was intended to give an indication of how much time investors have to gather their funds as it doesn't have much bearing on the start date of the project itself. Originally by: Marcus Baltar It looks like the whole IPO will not even make it to 2 BPO/blocks . I am confident we will purchase at least 2 BPOs. However, as we don't know how many people will fail to honour their reservations the 3rd BPO is still in doubt. Originally by: Marcus Baltar Yes, I have another 125 million being requested, but I would prefer to keep it until it looks like the second BPO/block is nearing completion It is entirely up to you if and when you send your isk to me. The only risk you take is that I may bump you to a later block, but I won't do that without warning you first. Originally by: Marcus Baltar Has the current Leviathan BPO gone into copying or research? The original plan was for two in research and two copying, with only one (so far?) what is the plan? The Leviathan BPO has gone into copying. See the above post for the plan for the following BPOs.
airgunner Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.08.14 19:08:00 - [246] Bad B, whats your view on the prices for the copies? Your business plan seems to be based on 15 bln per BPC. Is that after research (research adds some 2,3-2,5 bln to the value of a copy)? Is there any risk of this market collapsing any time soon, like we have seen with the mothership copies, which now sell at a rate which would provide a 5 year payback time on the investment in a BPO (and therefore way short of the required returns for this IPO)? Thx for your views on this and lots of success with your venture!
maila oop	Posted - 2009.08.14 19:14:00 - [247] audrey bitoni - school }p>\|7gu[e girl http://www.*******/PHOTOT/gg1.jpg http://www.*******/PHOTOT/gg2.jpg elle a les meilleurs }p>\|7gu[e seins ?, at-elle si mignon", si belle dans cette vid

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.