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Money sinks needed for endgame

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Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:12:00 - [1] EVE needs some big money sinks for endgame type players, meaning people um... 3+ years old? I'm 27 months old and I don't think I'm there yet, but I know a lot of older players are. Perhaps 42+ months old? What should those endgame money sinks be? The only one I can think of is paying NPC corps billions of ISK to get improved standing. Anyone else have suggestions? -- Salpad
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:25:00 - [2] pvp
BenjaminBarker	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:26:00 - [3] Originally by: 'QEN_Q1-2009.pdf' Another interesting development during the first quarter of 2009 is the constant increase in consumer prices. Consumer prices have now been increasing steadily since Q3 2008. So the deflation during the past two years seems to have ended, and we have since entered a period of mild inflation. But overall, the EVE economy is very stable in terms of prices with healthy increases in traded value, volume, and monetary growth. The EVE economy therefore performed very well in Q1 2009. EVE Economy is fine. Let the guy with the Doctorate handle it!
4 LOM Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.06.23 20:17:00 - [4] Originally by: Deva Blackfire pvp where does pvp sink isk to? (no where its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around)
Evelina Sol	Posted - 2009.06.23 20:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:46:04 Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:45:36 Originally by: 4 LOM Originally by: Deva Blackfire pvp where does pvp sink isk to? (no where its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around) Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot.
Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:19:00 - [6] EVE has an endgame? ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:35:00 - [7] Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 23/06/2009 21:35:19 Originally by: Evelina Sol Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:46:04 Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:45:36 Originally by: 4 LOM Originally by: Deva Blackfire pvp where does pvp sk isk to? (no wherine its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around) Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot. Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
Sturdy Girl	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Evelina Sol Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot. Yes, but the money paid by a player to buy those modules and rigs is still in the wallet of the person who sold them. That money still exists, but the stuff has been destroyed. Therefore it isn't an isk sink, its a "stuff" sink.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:41:00 - [9] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy. I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Marcus Gideon Gallente The NightClub	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:47:00 - [10] ISK sink, eh? <<<--- name's spelled out right over there. Feel free to send as much as you want. I'll make sure it goes to good use.

JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.06.23 21:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy. I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun. So what t2 ships have broken insurance , t1 still do the job fine, unless someone insure a ship and dont die
KaiserSoze434	Posted - 2009.06.23 22:06:00 - [12] I can't really speak to the need for an isk sink, but I do like the idea of being able to bribe npc's for standings, possibly with an increased yield from a new skill (graft 5 anyone?).
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.23 23:26:00 - [13] Build a titan and then lose it in pvp bang good way to make around 70b go poof. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2009.06.24 01:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Twin blade Build a titan and then lose it in pvp bang good way to make around 70b go poof. only the ship and mats used in said ship would go poof the isk never left the game someone else has it. In fact if there was any insurance on a titan you would infact have an isk faucet as more isk enters the game rather than leaves it. Lets try this with maths; IS = Isk Sink (eg: isk removed by ccp NOT a player) I = Isk (eg: isk owned, moved, used or traded by a player) IF = Isk faucet (eg: isk gained from ccp NOT a player) S = Ship and mods P = Player Now lets say you buy a ship for 30mil and fit it for 10mil more and you pay a PLAYER for said items. And then you lose said ship and gain 10mil insurance. Start isk = 40mil thats a given Isk Faucet due to insurance = 10mil again a given Ship + mods = 40mil the trade is shown below P-ISK+S == P+ISK-S thus You - 40mil + ship value 40mil == Him + 40m - shipvalue 40m Now lets say you lose said ship remember someone else has your 40mil p-ship+IF != (P-ISK+S == P+ISK-S) which can be noted as p-isk+s == p+isk-s == 40mil p-s+if == 10 40+10 == 50 thus pvp = isk faucet --------------- isk sink == pos if u buy the mods from npc's isk sink == bpo's when bought from npc's isk sink == anything bought from an npc and ONLY bought from an NPC everything else is effectively an isk faucet. Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights.
4 LOM Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.06.24 05:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy. I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun. Its hard being a moron no? You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink. You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink. Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Warrio GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.24 06:08:00 - [16] THE ISK sink in Eve is and has been for a long time now, POS Warfare. To empire bears it may seem like nothing much but the amount of ISK drained from the economy everyday through the purchases of POSs and POS fuel is truly staggering. Check the daily fuel costs of a large POS, count how many systems in Eve are held by players, estimate the average number of moons in a system and how many of those moons would have towers and you'll end up with some pretty huge numbers.
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.06.24 06:31:00 - [17] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy. NEWSFLASH just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2009.06.24 09:28:00 - [18] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 24/06/2009 09:28:36 Originally by: ArmyOfMe NEWSFLASH just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it It doesn't have anything to do with insurance payout. You paid for your ship and its modules. That money remains in the game even though the ship does not. As such, it's not an ISK sink. EVE Arena
Placeholder Victi	Posted - 2009.06.24 10:27:00 - [19] Just allow counterbribe of concord to get out of unwanted wars. There you have the biggest isk sink you can create in eve. not only for the endgame. Alliance A pay xxx millions to declare war on alliance B. Alliance B pays xxx millions to concord to invalidate the war with Alliance A. Concord Send Alliance A a mail saying they are sorry but the conclave of officials in empire invalidated their war, but perhaps if Alliance A doubbles the cost they might reconsider their decission. needless to say it can turn ugly if both alliance A and alliance B have a lot of iskies, and both are determined to go on. And yes Eve do need more isk sinks, and fast.
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:55:00 - [20] The concept of pvp+insurance as isk faucet (enjoyed mainly by builders and traders) is quite illuminating. It is indeed a good explanation of the in game inflation effect if you think about it (a contribution of course, not the whole cause)

Dav Varan	Posted - 2009.06.24 14:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Salpad EVE needs some big money sinks for endgame type players, meaning people um... 3+ years old? I'm 27 months old and I don't think I'm there yet, but I know a lot of older players are. Perhaps 42+ months old? What should those endgame money sinks be? The only one I can think of is paying NPC corps billions of ISK to get improved standing. Anyone else have suggestions? Why does eve need this thing ?
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.06.24 15:36:00 - [22] Originally by: xOm3gAx thus pvp = isk faucet Insurance looks like a faucet at a local level, but on the whole it's a drain. The reason is that not everyone loses the ship and gets a payout. When an insurance company issues a policy, they do so by calculating risk. The idea is that if you have 10 people paying you insurance, and you figure only one will actually need to take cash from it, the money you've collected from the other 9 will go to pay the one, and still leave you with a margin of profit. So while isk is injected into the game via an insurance payout, far more is lost by those who pay for insurance but never need it before the policy's period ends. ...or so it goes. Dr. E is the man with the plan on how that's balanced.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.06.24 15:45:00 - [23] There's an endgame? I thought the purpose of my isk was to buy more ships to get blown up?
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.06.24 16:01:00 - [24] Originally by: 4 LOM Its hard being a moron no? You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink. You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink. Not really no, and as a benefit it's not stressful at all. Thanks for asking! In any case you are wrong, the ISK does leave the game. Ships and modules represent assets directly translate-able into ISK's. You are confusing the fact that since the things involved in their procurement to sell are ISK faucets ISK is not leaving the game. In fact it is as those modules/ships/ISK's no longer exist and thus are no longer an asset, in short they've been 'paid to CCP'. That is the reason that insurance on T1 ships can be a faucet. There are two faucets involved in such a case, the ships and modules all come from faucets, and the money you paid for them come from a faucet (one can assume, if you are missioning say). The loss there of the ship and modules represents only one half of the total. In other words it is an ISK sink that only does half damage. Enjoy. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
4 LOM Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.06.24 19:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: 4 LOM Its hard being a moron no? You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink. You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink. Not really no, and as a benefit it's not stressful at all. Thanks for asking! In any case you are wrong, the ISK does leave the game. Ships and modules represent assets directly translate-able into ISK's. You are confusing the fact that since the things involved in their procurement to sell are ISK faucets ISK is not leaving the game. In fact it is as those modules/ships/ISK's no longer exist and thus are no longer an asset, in short they've been 'paid to CCP'. That is the reason that insurance on T1 ships can be a faucet. There are two faucets involved in such a case, the ships and modules all come from faucets, and the money you paid for them come from a faucet (one can assume, if you are missioning say). The loss there of the ship and modules represents only one half of the total. In other words it is an ISK sink that only does half damage. Enjoy. With ship pvp no isk leaves the game... there is no sink. if you dont agree with me then tell me where isk is lost when someone looses a ship? where does isk leavethe economy? Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.06.24 19:41:00 - [26] Make Sov population dependent. Make populatiopn require certain structures in space other than POSes, more similar to those deadspace locations you find at times. Make it easier to blow up and replace those structures. Sell them from NPC corporations. There. ISK sink. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.06.24 20:02:00 - [27] Originally by: 4 LOM With ship pvp no isk leaves the game... there is no sink. if you dont agree with me then tell me where isk is lost when someone looses a ship? where does isk leavethe economy? Gee someone should tell the PvP'ers this. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies	Posted - 2009.06.24 20:11:00 - [28] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 24/06/2009 20:12:54 Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 24/06/2009 20:12:31 I don't really see the problem here. The biggest effect of not having an ISK sink would be that prices go up... so what? The only way to keep prices constant would be if there was exactly the same ammount of isk introduced into the game as being taken from the game per capita (meaning calculating in the number of new subscriptions/people leaving). Currently there are only 2 ways (as far as I know) to introduce ISK into the server: - NPC bounties - selling stuff to NPCs - insurance payout Obviously the first is the biggest and only real isk introducing system. Current isk sinks: - clones - buying NPC stuff (BPOs, POS gear, skillbooks & assorted) - NPC rent (offices in NPC stations etc) - LP store (falls under buying NPC stuff but oh well) - wardecs Inflation/deflation is inevitable, but who says it's a bad thing? I can imagine in real life there'd be a problem with banks printing too much money and thus making 1,000,000,000,000 of currency x about the same worth as 0.10 of currency y. (not to mention hauling all those bills around or trying not to misplace em etc) but seeing as EVE only has 1 currency and everything is handled electronically I don't really see a problem with paying 1,000,000 ISK instead of 100,000 ISK for something. There is NOTHING wrong with the eve economy. If you think inflation/deflation is such a problem... go tell everyone to stop ratting/buying NPC stuff (depending on what side you're on)
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2009.06.24 23:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Tom Peeping on 24/06/2009 23:04:06 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm. PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance. All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant. The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy. NEWSFLASH just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink. Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.06.25 00:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Tom Peeping Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink. Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates. This is incorrect. The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game. When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left. Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.



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