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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.27 05:49:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Sigras
you cant just go dumping money into a system without an outflow for the money specifically.
I'm far from an expert on economics, but assuming the number of paid accounts keeps rising, shouldn't CCP try to be pumping ISK into the economy so that the amount of ISK per paid account stays roughly constant?
I mean, not as a micro-management thing, but as an overall on-average'ish kind of goal?
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Salpad |
Mimi Zi'lok
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Posted - 2009.06.27 06:15:00 -
[62]
Why can't EVE be a more complex universe? I hope I never reach a stage that i can call endgame.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.27 11:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Mimi Zi'lok
Why can't EVE be a more complex universe? I hope I never reach a stage that i can call endgame.
I propose a fee for posting in Features & Ideas Forum.
Once you define F&I = endgame you have the isk sink for engame everybody is looking for.  |
Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.06.27 19:08:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 27/06/2009 19:13:37
Bah. Nm.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.06.28 22:41:00 -
[65]
Actually, after reading hiroshima's response, I'm pretty sure most of us do realize that insurance is a faucet and the difference between isk and non-isk assets, but, are talking unclearly do not understanding eachother. Kinda silly in retrospect.  |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.28 23:45:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 28/06/2009 23:52:18
Originally by: Salpad
I'm far from an expert on economics, but assuming the number of paid accounts keeps rising, shouldn't CCP try to be pumping ISK into the economy so that the amount of ISK per paid account stays roughly constant?
As far as I have seen and experienced, players just generate ISK for themselves.
So there is no need to pump ISK into the economy. Quite the contrary.
It's not like someone needs to get paid
Most of the ISK a player spends also doesn't leave the economy. It's handed over to other players.
Only NPC goods (fuel), LP store items, insurance, clones, taxes and skillbooks are real money sinks. At least the ones I can come up with in a hurry.
But those are all not very big, compared to the ISK generators. And if insurance is paid out, it's a (huge) ISK faucet instead of a sink.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.06.29 00:26:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Tom Peeping on 29/06/2009 00:34:05
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Tom Peeping
Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink.
Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates.
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.
Ummm.... no there's not two units of isk blocks in the game when viewed from that perspective. One side of the equation is isk... the other side of the equation is composed of minerals. I absolutely agree that minerals are not valueless, however minerals are also not isk and we're talking about the amount of isk in the eve economy mate.
you have x amount of minerals and you build a ship. I purchase that ship for y amount of isk. I've now given you the isk, and accepted the ship. when I lose my ship, the minerals will have vanished from game, but not the isk I gave you. The entirety of the isk I gave you still exists in the eve economy. Whether I'm insured or not, or whether i'm in T2 or not doesn't change that basic starting point.
Please note: that doesnt mean that I consider minerals to be valueless... it's just that they are not isk. They can be converted into isk, but they themselves are not isk. The fact that I possess x amount of tritanium, has not altered the total amount of isk in the eve economy by one jot. I'm hoping you'll be able to figure out that this is not the same thing as considering minerals to have no value because they are "free". LOLS.
Thanks for trying to chip in though! 
Edit: Ok... I see in your later posts you've converted the argument to be about loss of value. that's fine. Just remember the original discussion was about the isk in the eve economy. If we want to talk about all elements of value in the eve economy, that's fine... just recognize that it's changing the subject to a completely different topic. You can't take a comment made exclusively about isk, and then answer it as if the conversation had been about "value"... you're talking about very different things.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.29 12:19:00 -
[68]
Wouldnt removing insurance altogether help it? Leave insurance for newbs for a month into game, remove from everything for everyone else. Suddenly losing 100BS fleet will not mean you lost 1bil isk (average difference between insurance payout and ship+insurance cost) but you lost 10bil. "ouch".
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Wedric
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Posted - 2009.06.29 16:48:00 -
[69]
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Capital ships
Fighters (20 mil each)
POS
Endless Supplies of HACs
0.0 Space
T2 BPOs or Mass Invention
T3
The losses of the above are the isk sink in endgame. I'm perfectly fine with being called an elitiest, so I think those of you living in empire and suggesting that "endgame" is t1 suicide ganking ships should get out and experience what only 7-8% of the entire EVE population experiences (according to last CCP population numbers? not sure), which is the joy of 0.0 and all the fun that goes along with holding space. I would put forward that anyone who has experienced the "endgame" in 0.0 is not calling for isk sinks.
Though after the Cap fight in DK- this morning I'm a bit suprised that the above poster would consider removing insurance...
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.30 11:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Wedric
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Basically I just think ther ought to be some expensive stuff that wealthy players can spend their ISK on, so that there's less pressure on investments/IPOs and in-game banks as seen in Market Discussion.
Any time someone makes an IPO post, people flock to it, disregarding common sense, audits and so forth.
Many players have more ISK than they can spend. That's what I want addressed. Give those players something to spend their ISK on.
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Salpad |
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DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2009.06.30 15:53:00 -
[71]
You could mass produce T3 crusers.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.30 16:00:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Salpad
Many players have more ISK than they can spend. That's what I want addressed. Give those players something to spend their ISK on.
Problem is: There are also vet players that dont have much wealth and income. They spend most what they get to have some fun (burning ships).
Not everybody optimized on economics.
Removal of the insurance would hit them most.
I have no problem when there are players who enjoyed economics and now have lots of isk around. They spend lots of time and effort to get there.
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.06.30 16:57:00 -
[73]
There are plenty of ways for a player to dump his personal isk. I'm not sure the game actually needs true blooded money sinks because for a lot of players they don't have the disposable isk to dump into them anyway. I can't see me dumping isk into a vanity item, ever, I'd rather have another HAC please.
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Daugar Draaken
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Posted - 2009.06.30 17:01:00 -
[74]
Eve has a severe end-game vacuum. Normally, I couldn't care less, not until those end-game players, soaked to the eyeballs with skills, money, experience and synergy, wander into my neck of the woods and, sipping an espresso and yawning, clicks and send my ship, pod, character and reanimation insurance a week back in progress.
There are solutions to this - an extremely seductive powergame at the billion ISK range player of the eveverse, where players become a "power block" rather than a "ship". Now hold that thought for a second.
This *synergetic" game involves NOT (or less) ship combat - but instead the cultivation of a powerful entity in Eve
- say, a corporation. Or mercenaries, Or a freaky cult. Or a trading block. Or vigilantes. Or a radical political group. Or a rogue (not "rouge") cyborg cult breaking all the laws. Or pirates. Or drug peddlers. Mutants. Or jovian spies. Or a bank. Or the surviving corporate interests of IBM.
Or anything else you cared imagine, and which fits in the constraints of a comprehensive factional strategy game.
This player-genrated power is active, somewhere in eve, maybe on that starbase you know and love, or maybe somewhere in an apparently derelict space station the size (and comtamination levels) of Jersey. And this game incorporates "in role" (consistent, persistent) goals, abilities (a cult has different abilities than a corporate mercenary group). It might work through several facades.
SURE, many current eve players won't see the merit, but many others would. Better still, it would take an hour every day out of the time allotment of high end OCD PK gamers in eve (and that means 10% less people quitting eve online because they got PKed *again* - and it would be a unique way to generate plots.
These organizations (maybe several per system, eventually) might hire low end players to clean up the drone infestation mess left behind by another powerbroker. They would (should) be constructing visible objects in Eve-Space, such as new stations, industrial facilities, occupying abandoned structures. If this additive program is good enough, this device might generate plots and interactivity that no amount of GMs, codemonkeys and writers would be able to generate.
Think about it. Eve is ideally suited for it, and I might argue, needs it. Think something like a very widely dispersed "simcity" interface, right in the eve client, that allows building of structures, the habitation of structures, all kinds of intense commercial and corporate transactions, hiring low-level playes to haul freights or attack other power blocks, move people, create or end wars, loan money, speculate, manipulate, spread a barrage of information and disinformation.
And the game interface and ID should at every turn have all kinds of interesting (NON-PK) implications for players of humbler means.
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Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.30 17:46:00 -
[75]
So some guys need a isk sink? lucky for u im around, pls transfer al the isk u find unwanted to me
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 10:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Wedric
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Capital ships
Fighters (20 mil each)
POS
Endless Supplies of HACs
0.0 Space
T2 BPOs or Mass Invention
T3
The losses of the above are the isk sink in endgame. I'm perfectly fine with being called an elitiest, so I think those of you living in empire and suggesting that "endgame" is t1 suicide ganking ships should get out and experience what only 7-8% of the entire EVE population experiences (according to last CCP population numbers? not sure), which is the joy of 0.0 and all the fun that goes along with holding space. I would put forward that anyone who has experienced the "endgame" in 0.0 is not calling for isk sinks.
Though after the Cap fight in DK- this morning I'm a bit suprised that the above poster would consider removing insurance...
I would. I know everyone chestbeats how "cap fleet was destroyed". Wow. You know it has been already replaced (at least isk-wise, just need to buy and move ships now). And even "non-spaceholding" alliance like tri can afford multiple capital fleets like one we lost. Pretty much moon mining income is so stupidly high that after you have 5-10 moons you dont bother with isk. Its virtually infinite.
Alliances like tcf/razor/mm/pl can pretty much lose around 200caps a month and still have spare isk after replacing em. Same goes for BS fleets. You pay around 60mil for full fit BS (mods, rigs, after counting insurance). With income of around 200-400bil/month its not a problem to replace hundreds of those.
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Miilla
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Posted - 2009.07.01 11:39:00 -
[77]
Endgame? There is no end game.
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