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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:12:00 -
[1]
EVE needs some big money sinks for endgame type players, meaning people um... 3+ years old? I'm 27 months old and I don't think I'm there yet, but I know a lot of older players are. Perhaps 42+ months old?
What should those endgame money sinks be?
The only one I can think of is paying NPC corps billions of ISK to get improved standing.
Anyone else have suggestions?
--
Salpad |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:25:00 -
[2]
pvp
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BenjaminBarker
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:26:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: 'QEN_Q1-2009.pdf'
Another interesting development during the first quarter of 2009 is the constant increase in consumer prices. Consumer prices have now been increasing steadily since Q3 2008. So the deflation during the past two years seems to have ended, and we have since entered a period of mild inflation.
But overall, the EVE economy is very stable in terms of prices with healthy increases in traded value, volume, and monetary growth. The EVE economy therefore performed very well in Q1 2009.
EVE Economy is fine. Let the guy with the Doctorate handle it!
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4 LOM
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.23 20:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
pvp
where does pvp sink isk to? (no where its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around) |
Evelina Sol
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Posted - 2009.06.23 20:45:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:46:04
Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:45:36
Originally by: 4 LOM
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
pvp
where does pvp sink isk to? (no where its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around)
Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot.
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Lilla Kharn
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:19:00 -
[6]
EVE has an endgame?
=============================================
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 23/06/2009 21:35:19
Originally by: Evelina Sol
Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:46:04
Edited by: Evelina Sol on 23/06/2009 20:45:36
Originally by: 4 LOM
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
pvp
where does pvp sk isk to? (no wherine its not an isk sink, its just moves the isk around)
Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot.
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
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Sturdy Girl
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Evelina Sol
Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot.
Yes, but the money paid by a player to buy those modules and rigs is still in the wallet of the person who sold them. That money still exists, but the stuff has been destroyed. Therefore it isn't an isk sink, its a "stuff" sink.
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:47:00 -
[10]
ISK sink, eh?
<<<--- name's spelled out right over there.
Feel free to send as much as you want. I'll make sure it goes to good use.  |
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun.
So what t2 ships have broken insurance , t1 still do the job fine, unless someone insure a ship and dont die 
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.06.23 22:06:00 -
[12]
I can't really speak to the need for an isk sink, but I do like the idea of being able to bribe npc's for standings, possibly with an increased yield from a new skill (graft 5 anyone?). |
Twin blade
Minmatar
The Triangle
Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.23 23:26:00 -
[13]
Build a titan and then lose it in pvp bang good way to make around 70b go poof.
Death is great rember where all dying to get there. |
xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2009.06.24 01:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Twin blade
Build a titan and then lose it in pvp bang good way to make around 70b go poof.
only the ship and mats used in said ship would go poof the isk never left the game someone else has it. In fact if there was any insurance on a titan you would infact have an isk faucet as more isk enters the game rather than leaves it.
Lets try this with maths;
IS = Isk Sink (eg: isk removed by ccp NOT a player)
I = Isk (eg: isk owned, moved, used or traded by a player)
IF = Isk faucet (eg: isk gained from ccp NOT a player)
S = Ship and mods
P = Player
Now lets say you buy a ship for 30mil and fit it for 10mil more and you pay a PLAYER for said items. And then you lose said ship and gain 10mil insurance.
Start isk = 40mil thats a given Isk Faucet due to insurance = 10mil again a given
Ship + mods = 40mil
the trade is shown below
P-ISK+S == P+ISK-S thus You - 40mil + ship value 40mil == Him + 40m - shipvalue 40m
Now lets say you lose said ship remember someone else has your 40mil
p-ship+IF != (P-ISK+S == P+ISK-S) which can be noted as
p-isk+s == p+isk-s == 40mil
p-s+if == 10
40+10 == 50
thus pvp = isk faucet
---------------
isk sink == pos if u buy the mods from npc's
isk sink == bpo's when bought from npc's
isk sink == anything bought from an npc and ONLY bought from an NPC everything else is effectively an isk faucet.
Originally by: CCP Abraxas
Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights.
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4 LOM
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.24 05:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
I guess you dont fly T2 or fit any modules. I like your PVP style, it sounds like fun.
Its hard being a moron no?
You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink.
You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink.
Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner. 
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.24 06:08:00 -
[16]
THE ISK sink in Eve is and has been for a long time now, POS Warfare.
To empire bears it may seem like nothing much but the amount of ISK drained from the economy everyday through the purchases of POSs and POS fuel is truly staggering.
Check the daily fuel costs of a large POS, count how many systems in Eve are held by players, estimate the average number of moons in a system and how many of those moons would have towers and you'll end up with some pretty huge numbers. |
ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.06.24 06:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
 NEWSFLASH
just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.06.24 09:28:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 24/06/2009 09:28:36
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
NEWSFLASH
just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it
It doesn't have anything to do with insurance payout. You paid for your ship and its modules. That money remains in the game even though the ship does not. As such, it's not an ISK sink.
EVE Arena |
Placeholder Victi
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Posted - 2009.06.24 10:27:00 -
[19]
Just allow counterbribe of concord to get out of unwanted wars.
There you have the biggest isk sink you can create in eve. not only for the endgame.
Alliance A pay xxx millions to declare war on alliance B. Alliance B pays xxx millions to concord to invalidate the war with Alliance A. Concord Send Alliance A a mail saying they are sorry but the conclave of officials in empire invalidated their war, but perhaps if Alliance A doubbles the cost they might reconsider their decission.
needless to say it can turn ugly if both alliance A and alliance B have a lot of iskies, and both are determined to go on.
And yes Eve do need more isk sinks, and fast.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2009.06.24 13:55:00 -
[20]
The concept of pvp+insurance as isk faucet (enjoyed mainly by builders and traders) is quite illuminating. It is indeed a good explanation of the in game inflation effect if you think about it (a contribution of course, not the whole cause)
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.06.24 14:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Salpad
EVE needs some big money sinks for endgame type players, meaning people um... 3+ years old? I'm 27 months old and I don't think I'm there yet, but I know a lot of older players are. Perhaps 42+ months old?
What should those endgame money sinks be?
The only one I can think of is paying NPC corps billions of ISK to get improved standing.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Why does eve need this thing ?
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.06.24 15:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: xOm3gAx
thus pvp = isk faucet
Insurance looks like a faucet at a local level, but on the whole it's a drain.
The reason is that not everyone loses the ship and gets a payout. When an insurance company issues a policy, they do so by calculating risk. The idea is that if you have 10 people paying you insurance, and you figure only one will actually need to take cash from it, the money you've collected from the other 9 will go to pay the one, and still leave you with a margin of profit.
So while isk is injected into the game via an insurance payout, far more is lost by those who pay for insurance but never need it before the policy's period ends.
...or so it goes. Dr. E is the man with the plan on how that's balanced. |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.06.24 15:45:00 -
[23]
There's an endgame? I thought the purpose of my isk was to buy more ships to get blown up? |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.24 16:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: 4 LOM
Its hard being a moron no?
You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink.
You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink.
Not really no, and as a benefit it's not stressful at all. Thanks for asking!
In any case you are wrong, the ISK does leave the game. Ships and modules represent assets directly translate-able into ISK's. You are confusing the fact that since the things involved in their procurement to sell are ISK faucets ISK is not leaving the game. In fact it is as those modules/ships/ISK's no longer exist and thus are no longer an asset, in short they've been 'paid to CCP'. That is the reason that insurance on T1 ships can be a faucet.
There are two faucets involved in such a case, the ships and modules all come from faucets, and the money you paid for them come from a faucet (one can assume, if you are missioning say). The loss there of the ship and modules represents only one half of the total. In other words it is an ISK sink that only does half damage.
Enjoy.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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4 LOM
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.24 19:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: 4 LOM
Its hard being a moron no?
You paid Mr. X for your tech 2 ship and mods, you loose your ship and mods, Mr. X still has your isk, the isk is still in game and did not leave the economy so is not an isk sink.
You pay for a clone, isk leaves game and is no longer in the economy, this is an isk sink.
Not really no, and as a benefit it's not stressful at all. Thanks for asking!
In any case you are wrong, the ISK does leave the game. Ships and modules represent assets directly translate-able into ISK's. You are confusing the fact that since the things involved in their procurement to sell are ISK faucets ISK is not leaving the game. In fact it is as those modules/ships/ISK's no longer exist and thus are no longer an asset, in short they've been 'paid to CCP'. That is the reason that insurance on T1 ships can be a faucet.
There are two faucets involved in such a case, the ships and modules all come from faucets, and the money you paid for them come from a faucet (one can assume, if you are missioning say). The loss there of the ship and modules represents only one half of the total. In other words it is an ISK sink that only does half damage.
Enjoy.
With ship pvp no isk leaves the game... there is no sink. if you dont agree with me then tell me where isk is lost when someone looses a ship? where does isk leavethe economy?
Originally by: Twilight Moon
of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.06.24 19:41:00 -
[26]
Make Sov population dependent. Make populatiopn require certain structures in space other than POSes, more similar to those deadspace locations you find at times. Make it easier to blow up and replace those structures. Sell them from NPC corporations. There. ISK sink.
--------
Ideas for: Mining
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.24 20:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: 4 LOM
With ship pvp no isk leaves the game... there is no sink. if you dont agree with me then tell me where isk is lost when someone looses a ship? where does isk leavethe economy?
Gee someone should tell the PvP'ers this.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Black Serpent Technologies
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Posted - 2009.06.24 20:11:00 -
[28]
Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 24/06/2009 20:12:54
Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 24/06/2009 20:12:31
I don't really see the problem here.
The biggest effect of not having an ISK sink would be that prices go up... so what?
The only way to keep prices constant would be if there was exactly the same ammount of isk introduced into the game as being taken from the game per capita
(meaning calculating in the number of new subscriptions/people leaving).
Currently there are only 2 ways (as far as I know) to introduce ISK into the server:
- NPC bounties
- selling stuff to NPCs
- insurance payout
Obviously the first is the biggest and only real isk introducing system.
Current isk sinks:
- clones
- buying NPC stuff (BPOs, POS gear, skillbooks & assorted)
- NPC rent (offices in NPC stations etc)
- LP store (falls under buying NPC stuff but oh well)
- wardecs
Inflation/deflation is inevitable, but who says it's a bad thing?
I can imagine in real life there'd be a problem with banks printing too much money and thus making 1,000,000,000,000 of currency x about the same worth as 0.10 of currency y. (not to mention hauling all those bills around or trying not to misplace em etc) but seeing as EVE only has 1 currency and everything is handled electronically I don't really see a problem with paying 1,000,000 ISK instead of 100,000 ISK for something.
There is NOTHING wrong with the eve economy.
If you think inflation/deflation is such a problem... go tell everyone to stop ratting/buying NPC stuff (depending on what side you're on)
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.06.24 23:03:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tom Peeping on 24/06/2009 23:04:06
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Omg this is big i dont know if to laugh or to do the facepalm.
PVP is actally printing isk due to insurance.
All poeple that belive PVP is an isk sink are totally ignorant.
The only sink is in a person's wallet that dies not in economy.
NEWSFLASH
just because you pvp in crappy t1 ships with crappy t1 mods doesnt mean everyone does it
Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink.
Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates.
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.25 00:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tom Peeping
Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink.
Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates.
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless. |
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.06.25 00:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jin Nib
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.
Thats true but youre forgetting that there are different markets in eve.
losing a ship/modules deflates the mineral market, IE the amount of minerals etc in the game, but it doesnt effect the isk market
This isnt like WoW where if you get something lame you can just turn it into money from the game by selling it to a vendor which spawns money into the game, you either have to sell it to a person which doesnt spawn any money or you have to refine it which deflates the mineral market by adding minerals to the game.
and btw everyone is forgetting probably the biggest isk sink of all . . . broker fees |
xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2009.06.25 00:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Regat Kozovv
Originally by: xOm3gAx
thus pvp = isk faucet
Insurance looks like a faucet at a local level, but on the whole it's a drain.
The reason is that not everyone loses the ship and gets a payout. When an insurance company issues a policy, they do so by calculating risk. The idea is that if you have 10 people paying you insurance, and you figure only one will actually need to take cash from it, the money you've collected from the other 9 will go to pay the one, and still leave you with a margin of profit.
So while isk is injected into the game via an insurance payout, far more is lost by those who pay for insurance but never need it before the policy's period ends.
...or so it goes. Dr. E is the man with the plan on how that's balanced.
touche on the insurance =)
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:12:00 -
[33]
Borrowing from an unmentionable game it can be done by vanity items. These have no game value but may have braging rights, such as paying to have your ship painted to your specs. |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:26:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sigras
Thats true but youre forgetting that there are different markets in eve.
losing a ship/modules deflates the mineral market, IE the amount of minerals etc in the game, but it doesnt effect the isk market
This isnt like WoW where if you get something lame you can just turn it into money from the game by selling it to a vendor which spawns money into the game, you either have to sell it to a person which doesnt spawn any money or you have to refine it which deflates the mineral market by adding minerals to the game.
and btw everyone is forgetting probably the biggest isk sink of all . . . broker fees
Indeed, I am looking at everything as ISK value. Ignoreing that everything has value would indeed result in PvP not being a loss. Happily that is not the case. If you are looking for more direct ISK means of loss then yes I would be wrong.
Also, I hate broker fee's, they f-ing blow. So what does that say about ISK sinks? |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Zartanic
Borrowing from an unmentionable game it can be done by vanity items. These have no game value but may have braging rights, such as paying to have your ship painted to your specs.
T3 ships....
 |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:44:00 -
[36]
Aside from PvP the coming Pimp My Office Ambulation will be a huge moneysink I'm sure.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
4 LOM
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.25 01:55:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sigras
Originally by: Jin Nib
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.
Thats true but youre forgetting that there are different markets in eve.
losing a ship/modules deflates the mineral market, IE the amount of minerals etc in the game, but it doesnt effect the isk market
This isnt like WoW where if you get something lame you can just turn it into money from the game by selling it to a vendor which spawns money into the game, you either have to sell it to a person which doesnt spawn any money or you have to refine it which deflates the mineral market by adding minerals to the game.
and btw everyone is forgetting probably the biggest isk sink of all . . . broker fees
i sujest you give up jin nib does not understand what an isk sink is and is unwilling to learn, i gave up trying to convince him. |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.25 02:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: 4 LOM
i sujest you give up jin nib does not understand what an isk sink is and is unwilling to learn, i gave up trying to convince him.
Your reading comprehension is fantastic and you're arguments insurmountable. As is your beautiful use of the written word (nice use of capitals *thumbs up*).
I'd ask to to teach me the masterful ways of your rhetoric style, but sadly as you pointed out, I'm too moronic and unintelligent to learn. |
Infinion
Caldari
Endless Destruction
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Posted - 2009.06.25 04:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: 4 LOM
Originally by: Sigras
Originally by: Jin Nib
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.
Thats true but youre forgetting that there are different markets in eve.
losing a ship/modules deflates the mineral market, IE the amount of minerals etc in the game, but it doesnt effect the isk market
This isnt like WoW where if you get something lame you can just turn it into money from the game by selling it to a vendor which spawns money into the game, you either have to sell it to a person which doesnt spawn any money or you have to refine it which deflates the mineral market by adding minerals to the game.
and btw everyone is forgetting probably the biggest isk sink of all . . . broker fees
i sujest you give up jin nib does not understand what an isk sink is and is unwilling to learn, i gave up trying to convince him.
Theres something amazing that happens in the digital world to assets. Their value doesn't Depreciate.
Lets look at this with a figurative prospective.
There are 3 people in the entire eve universe; one guy has 5 billion ISK, another guy has 5 billion ISK in assets all on the market, The last guy we'll turn into a sleeper battleship. The first guy buys 5 billion ISK in assets from the second guy and fits his new officer fit ship (choose your favorite). He takes his super ship through a wormhole to fight sleepers and....regretfully...dies, returning through the wormhole in his pod.
Now, how much ISK was there to begin with? |
Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.06.25 05:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sturdy Girl
Originally by: Evelina Sol
Modules and ships are destroyed, only a fraction of it becomes loot.
Yes, but the money paid by a player to buy those modules and rigs is still in the wallet of the person who sold them. That money still exists, but the stuff has been destroyed. Therefore it isn't an isk sink, its a "stuff" sink.
Quoted for Trueth! Pvp is not an isk sink even though it mite feel like it. Its an iteam sink. |
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.06.25 13:24:00 -
[41]
i just have to get one question answered from Jin Nib himself.
Does losing a ship take any ISK out of the game?
Just so i can be clear by out of the game i mean removed from play so that nobody has it any more.
Yes yes, i know that the ship is gone but the ISK the actual numerical digits, are the actual numerical digits removed from the game?
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Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.25 22:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sigras
i just have to get one question answered from Jin Nib himself.
Does losing a ship take any ISK out of the game?
Just so i can be clear by out of the game i mean removed from play so that nobody has it any more.
Yes yes, i know that the ship is gone but the ISK the actual numerical digits, are the actual numerical digits removed from the game?
If you noticed in the post which I quoted you (#34) I agreed with you that PvP does not remove the currency itself from the game.
Apparently though people are so caught up in their assumption of what my argument is that they are ignoring what I have actually said. My contention is that anything that removes anything of 'value' from the game constitutes an ISK sink. ISK being the denominator of value is measured in the game.
I have not seen an argument here as to why ISK should be considered at its value, and ships and modules not. Either pure loss of currency, or loss of assets both have an effect of strengthening the ISK left in game. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.06.26 02:24:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jin Nib
If you noticed in the post which I quoted you (#34) I agreed with you that PvP does not remove the currency itself from the game.
Apparently though people are so caught up in their assumption of what my argument is that they are ignoring what I have actually said. My contention is that anything that removes anything of 'value' from the game constitutes an ISK sink. ISK being the denominator of value is measured in the game.
I have not seen an argument here as to why ISK should be considered at its value, and ships and modules not. Either pure loss of currency, or loss of assets both have an effect of strengthening the ISK left in game.
i see your point but ISK isnt the denominator of value measured in the game.
think about it this way; if i give everyone in eve an extra 50,000,000,000,000 ISK, do you really think that the price of a dominix would stay 50 million?
Heck no, the price of everything would go through the roof because everyone has more money. (economists call that inflation)
Now even if the dominixes start getting destroyed, the price of them is still going to be quite inflated because the fact that they are getting blown up doesnt change the fact that everyone's wallet just got bigger.
you cant just go dumping money into a system without an outflow for the money specifically.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.26 02:36:00 -
[44]
Player A mines minerals worth 5 mil isk.
Player A makes ship, sells ship for 5 mil isk.
Player B sticks his head up his ass and explodes.
Player B aquires 2.5 mil insurance. (insurance paid out 5 mil and cost 2.5)
Before the explosion there were 10mil of assets in the game->
5 mil isk, 5 mil items
After the explosion there was 7.5 mil of assets in the game->
7.5 mil isk, 0 mil items
Eve PVP is an ISK faucet. However it causes the total ammount of assets in game to diminish. |
Learol
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Posted - 2009.06.26 02:43:00 -
[45]
simple as posible
isk takes time to make, stuff takes time to make too, if you're making stuff, you're not making isk, so stuff lost = isk lost
pvp = isk sink |
Commander Yassir
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.06.26 02:55:00 -
[46]
The Money Hole!
~
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. |
Avatoin
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Posted - 2009.06.26 04:21:00 -
[47]
I find pvping to be a isk sink. A good BS fit cost at list half the cost of the battleship itself. Plus the 50mil isk you spent on getting insurance for that hyperion, isn't recovered.
For a tier 3 BS, the ship tend to cost around 150 to 165mil isk. The insurance is about 50mil is, to gain back the same 165mil isk. Therefore, when you lose that BS you only gain about 115mil isk of you loses. Plus the cost of those very expensive turrents, ammo, tank, and ewar. and t2 drones.
I bought a Rohk and was surprised how easy it was to have spent just as much isk insuring and fitting the thing as buying the ship itself.
PVP may not be a huge isk sink to some ppl, but unless they have a reliable method of income, their money will eventually runout.
Just remembered, t2 insurance is a ***** |
4 LOM
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.26 04:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Player A mines minerals worth 5 mil isk.
Player A makes ship, sells ship for 5 mil isk.
Player B sticks his head up his ass and explodes.
Player B aquires 2.5 mil insurance. (insurance paid out 5 mil and cost 2.5)
Before the explosion there were 10mil of assets in the game->
5 mil isk, 5 mil items
After the explosion there was 7.5 mil of assets in the game->
7.5 mil isk, 0 mil items
Eve PVP is an ISK faucet. However it causes the total ammount of assets in game to diminish.
Bad argument.
Take one step back.
Player B has 5M isk
Player A has nothing
PLayer A mines minerals for ship
Player B pays player A 5M for ship
PLayer B looses ship games 1M from crappy insurance payout.
Player A has 5M
Player B as 1M
Total isk in game 6M....
Where is the sink? |
Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.06.26 05:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: 4 LOM
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Player A mines minerals worth 5 mil isk.
Player A makes ship, sells ship for 5 mil isk.
Player B sticks his head up his ass and explodes.
Player B aquires 2.5 mil insurance. (insurance paid out 5 mil and cost 2.5)
Before the explosion there were 10mil of assets in the game->
5 mil isk, 5 mil items
After the explosion there was 7.5 mil of assets in the game->
7.5 mil isk, 0 mil items
Eve PVP is an ISK faucet. However it causes the total ammount of assets in game to diminish.
Bad argument.
Take one step back.
Player B has 5M isk
Player A has nothing
PLayer A mines minerals for ship
Player B pays player A 5M for ship
PLayer B looses ship games 1M from crappy insurance payout.
Player A has 5M
Player B as 1M
Total isk in game 6M....
Where is the sink?
There is no sink, there is now 1mil more isk in the game (not 6, 5 was there to start) and no items to compensate, causing inflation.
Mining creates non-isk assets and no isk, removing inflation from system. Selling the ship just shuffles assets around, nothing enters or leaves the game. When the ship is insured, isk leaves, but a LOT more enters system when ship blows up. There now is more isk in the game thanks to insured loss, but because the ship blew up there is ALSO less non-isk stuff: pvp thus creates an isk faucet and non-isk-asset (mineral) sink. End result, inflation if it happens a lot.
Now add to that how off your hypothetical numbers are and you have a serious problem.
However, for a long, long time in EVE there wasn't much inflation despite this problem. I have a strong suspicion the recent inflation is being caused by a recent trend because its a recent phenomenon . This leaves 2 likely causes:
a) a shift towards flying and losing more T1 insurable ships as the natural result of hugely spiking moon mineral prices
b) the Ni Hao chinese macro farmer crowd switching from mining to missions, removing a huge amount of deflationary mining and adding a ton of isk-faucet missioning.
Both of which coincide roughly with the advent of inflationary pressure.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.06.26 05:28:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Avatoin
I find pvping to be a isk sink. A good BS fit cost at list half the cost of the battleship itself. Plus the 50mil isk you spent on getting insurance for that hyperion, isn't recovered.
For a tier 3 BS, the ship tend to cost around 150 to 165mil isk. The insurance is about 50mil is, to gain back the same 165mil isk. Therefore, when you lose that BS you only gain about 115mil isk of you loses. Plus the cost of those very expensive turrents, ammo, tank, and ewar. and t2 drones.
I bought a Rohk and was surprised how easy it was to have spent just as much isk insuring and fitting the thing as buying the ship itself.
PVP may not be a huge isk sink to some ppl, but unless they have a reliable method of income, their money will eventually runout.
Just remembered, t2 insurance is a *****
t2 ship pvp isn't inflationary or deflationary because they're not insured.
What makes pvp in t1 ships an isk faucet is that you add way more ISK into the game by losing an insured ship than buying insurance. The isk-equivalent value of buying fittings, ship, rigs, etc. is irrelevant because you might lose the isk, but, its not removed from the game. Then to make inflationary results worse, when the ship blows up, the destroyed stuff is all non-isk, which increases the ratio of isk to other stuff in the economy.
tl;dr -- when you buy something from another player, thats not an isk sink because no isk is created or destroyed from game. when you lose something thats not isk, thats not an isk sink, its an other stuff (minerals, mods, whatever) sink. When you pay for insurance and then blow up, thats an isk faucet because it creates more than is destroyed.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.06.26 05:43:00 -
[51]
PvP is a Mineral Sink. Not an ISK Sink.
There is no direct way to turn ISK into Minerals, which removes the isk from the game. All minerals are just traded between players: Not an isk sink.
When modules/ships go Boom, the minerals are all that disappears from the game. No isk was lost there-for: Not an isk sink.
When a ship goes "boom" NEW ISK is introduced, be it small (Default payment) or not, it is still isk, there-for: PvP is an Isk Faucet.
Player X buys Ship Y and Modules A through C from Player D and insures it, this comes to a total of 100m isk with 30m being lost from the economy [insurance fee: Isk sink].
Player X gets his ship blown up, and modules B and C are destroyed, A survives. [Mineral Sink is here]
Player X Gets 90m from insurance. [60 million NEW isk just entered the economy, Ergo: Faucet]
Between Player X and Player D, there is now a total of 190 million isk in the economy, whereas it started as 100 million (All belonging to Player X).
PvP Could only ever be slightly considered an isk sink if there was a way to buy minerals from non-player sources that removed isk from the game. Minerals lost from the economy remove no isk from the economy and thus, can never even be considered an isk sink. So can you all stop saying "Yes it is" before Darwin rolls over in his grave.
___________________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.26 05:50:00 -
[52]
Could you wannabe economists stop gronking on about PvP. POSs are the isk sink plain and simple. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.06.26 08:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Blane Xero
PvP is a Mineral Sink. Not an ISK Sink.
There is no direct way to turn ISK into Minerals, which removes the isk from the game. All minerals are just traded between players: Not an isk sink.
When modules/ships go Boom, the minerals are all that disappears from the game. No isk was lost there-for: Not an isk sink.
When a ship goes "boom" NEW ISK is introduced, be it small (Default payment) or not, it is still isk, there-for: PvP is an Isk Faucet.
Player X buys Ship Y and Modules A through C from Player D and insures it, this comes to a total of 100m isk with 30m being lost from the economy [insurance fee: Isk sink].
Player X gets his ship blown up, and modules B and C are destroyed, A survives. [Mineral Sink is here]
Player X Gets 90m from insurance. [60 million NEW isk just entered the economy, Ergo: Faucet]
Between Player X and Player D, there is now a total of 190 million isk in the economy, whereas it started as 100 million (All belonging to Player X).
People just cant get their minds around the fact that just because they lose money doesnt mean that money is take out of the gameit just means that they personally have less money.
Originally by: Blane Xero
PvP Could only ever be slightly considered an isk sink if there was a way to buy minerals from non-player sources that removed isk from the game. Minerals lost from the economy remove no isk from the economy and thus, can never even be considered an isk sink. So can you all stop saying "Yes it is" before Darwin rolls over in his grave.
Ok, i dont even believe in the theory of evolution, and thats hilarious . . . and i have to be honest, these people are not really proving the theory . . . lol |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:28:00 -
[54]
Bull**** Mahke. First of all I said isk faucet. Second of all, why does 5 million isk hold preference over an item worth 5 million isk? Assets are assets. If I offered you 100$ IRL, or a bar of gold currently worth 100$, would the choice mean very much?
PLAYER A has one mining ship, 0 other assets, and 0 isk
PLAYER B has one rating ship, 0 other assets and 0 isk
PLAYER A mines for an hour. He mines 5 million isk worth of minerals. With them he builds a ship worth 5 million.
PLAYER B rats for an hour, and makes 5 million isk.
There is now 10 million isk worth of assets in the game.5 million actual isk, 5 million in assets, not counting the two production ships.
PLAYER B buys the ship from PLAYER A. They have now exchanged assets. There is no change in the ammount of assets in game.
PLAYER B explodes. There is now 5 million fewer assets in the game in terms of items. Those minerals are completely gone. However player B recieved 2.5 million in insurance.
There is now 7.5 million isk floating around in game. PLAYER B has 2.5 PLAYER A has 5. ISK ****ING FAUCET. However 2.5+5 =/= 10. Before the explosion there was 10 million isk in assets in the game. Meaning that pvp causes the loss of non isk assets. And every explosion causes the number of assets in game to go down.
The only way you can claim that pvp is a pure faucet is if you go ahead and decide that the minerals were free. The ship was 'free' and go on to compute that 5 mil in assets turned into 7.5. However I beleive that PLAYER A would tell you to **** yourself.
PLAYER B can produce 5 mil/hr. PLAYER A can do the same except he was making minerals. You cant go and say PLAYER B's time is worth 5 mil/hr and PLAYER A is making free minerals.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:16:00 -
[55]
The only thing blowing up a ship does is cause inflation. No ISK is lost at all to the server as a whole. In fact due to insurance there is a net gain in ISK on the server as already explained.
Inflation devalues ISK reducing the adverse effects of too much ISK so it acts as a kind of ISK sink. But in games a 'sink' is one where the ISK is removed from the server, not devalued, so losing assets is not a sink.
People are mixing up equivalent value with ISK, the two are not the same when looking at a closed economic system which EVE is.
You could blow up every ship in the game and the ISK would go up. Of course so would inflation and the need for ISK sinks may well go down, but this is NOT a sink in itself as no ISK leaves the game.
PS: Why are these forums the worst I have ever experienced for posting? CCP, my mate will fix it for you for free, will take him about 10 minutes.
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Riessa Mc'Neil
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:20:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Riessa Mc''Neil on 26/06/2009 17:22:00
Wow I guess a lot of guys don't live in the real world. A Real world economy doesn't have money sinks either all the money just changes hands from governments to private individuals and back again in the form of goverment payrolls and taxes. It also moves from indivudal business owners to other business owners. The only real world money sink is when a Governmetn physically destroys printed money or coins and then they just print more or stamp more coins (money faucet).
What I belive the original poster is asking for is more ways to put money back into the hands of NPC's which is where all the mission runners / pirate killers get the money from in the first place in the from pirate bounties and missing running rewards.
You figure you are get money into the Pod conummuny by doing missions i.e. working for the government, you put money back into the governemtn through broker and contract fees, station office rents, alliance upkeep fees. If you want to draw money out of the economy in eve these fees need to be increased or add more of them i.e. docking fee, personal hanger storage fee, ship parking fees, stargate useage fee (toll road).
Remember ship insurance goes to an NPC corporation if you don't die with the ship insured that is a money sink. The problem with insurance is that there is know "unknown" aspect to EVE regarding the longetivty of your craft your either 95% sure you won't loose it or 95% sure you will lose it.
And considering it took 2 years before Eve has started to see some inflation I'd say we are doing pretty good there. Also remember higher end ships don't ensure for quite 100% so you are pulling some money
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Kawea
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:20:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Kawea on 26/06/2009 18:21:01
Originally by: Riessa Mc'Neil
Wow I guess a lot of guys don't live in the real world. A Real world economy doesn't have money sinks either all the money just changes hands from governments to private individuals and back again in the form of goverment payrolls and taxes. It also moves from indivudal business owners to other business owners. The only real world money sink is when a Governmetn physically destroys printed money or coins and then they just print more or stamp more coins (money faucet).
Economics is a terrible subject to study, but very important to know. It's a common misconception that the money (in real world) is created by the government. This is completely untrue. The government might be having some influence over the Central Bank, that issues the currency (coins and notes), but the influence is usually not that big, nor does it really matter. In 'modern economy', practically all the money there is comes from commercial credit. Google for 'Monetary Theory' if you really want to know the dirty details.
Another misconception is the relation between money and value. Here is what I have said before in another (similar) discussion:
Quote:
Money does NOT equal value. Money is nothing more and nothing less than an aid for trade. The 'grease' that helps the trade roll so to speak. Without money people would need to resort to barter which is a rather inefficient system, although not without merits.
In the case stated in the quote, if there is a fixed amount of money in the system (in the game) and you 'create' another item either through industry line (mining - manufacturing) or through a drop, you now have more items being offered, against the same amount of money as before, which means the price of that item will have to be less. Lower prices are deflation.
Inflation is created by injecting money into the system (through bounties and mission rewards) and by eliminating items from the game.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.27 05:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Twin blade
Build a titan and then lose it in pvp bang good way to make around 70b go poof.
ISK sinks, in order to be good, must either be something that players are forced to sink into as an inavoidable consequence of their playing style, or else something that a large majority of players will willingly flock to.
Buying Titans doesn't fit either of those two criteria.
Crew salaries would fit criterion number one. Player housing, if pumped up with a lot of visual (as in eye candy) prestige, would fit criterion number two if one confines oneself to high-sec carebears.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.27 05:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Salpad
EVE needs some big money sinks for endgame type players, meaning people um... 3+ years old? I'm 27 months old and I don't think I'm there yet, but I know a lot of older players are. Perhaps 42+ months old?
What should those endgame money sinks be?
The only one I can think of is paying NPC corps billions of ISK to get improved standing.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Why does eve need this thing ?
Look in the MD forum. Lots of wealthy players with nothing to spend their ISK on, so they throw them at very dubious IPOs.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.27 05:47:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Aside from PvP the coming Pimp My Office Ambulation will be a huge moneysink I'm sure.
I hope ambulation will be an ISK sink, yes.
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.27 05:49:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Sigras
you cant just go dumping money into a system without an outflow for the money specifically.
I'm far from an expert on economics, but assuming the number of paid accounts keeps rising, shouldn't CCP try to be pumping ISK into the economy so that the amount of ISK per paid account stays roughly constant?
I mean, not as a micro-management thing, but as an overall on-average'ish kind of goal?
--
Salpad |
Mimi Zi'lok
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Posted - 2009.06.27 06:15:00 -
[62]
Why can't EVE be a more complex universe? I hope I never reach a stage that i can call endgame.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.27 11:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Mimi Zi'lok
Why can't EVE be a more complex universe? I hope I never reach a stage that i can call endgame.
I propose a fee for posting in Features & Ideas Forum.
Once you define F&I = endgame you have the isk sink for engame everybody is looking for.  |
Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.06.27 19:08:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 27/06/2009 19:13:37
Bah. Nm.
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Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.06.28 22:41:00 -
[65]
Actually, after reading hiroshima's response, I'm pretty sure most of us do realize that insurance is a faucet and the difference between isk and non-isk assets, but, are talking unclearly do not understanding eachother. Kinda silly in retrospect.  |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.28 23:45:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 28/06/2009 23:52:18
Originally by: Salpad
I'm far from an expert on economics, but assuming the number of paid accounts keeps rising, shouldn't CCP try to be pumping ISK into the economy so that the amount of ISK per paid account stays roughly constant?
As far as I have seen and experienced, players just generate ISK for themselves.
So there is no need to pump ISK into the economy. Quite the contrary.
It's not like someone needs to get paid
Most of the ISK a player spends also doesn't leave the economy. It's handed over to other players.
Only NPC goods (fuel), LP store items, insurance, clones, taxes and skillbooks are real money sinks. At least the ones I can come up with in a hurry.
But those are all not very big, compared to the ISK generators. And if insurance is paid out, it's a (huge) ISK faucet instead of a sink.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.06.29 00:26:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Tom Peeping on 29/06/2009 00:34:05
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Tom Peeping
Hey man... I hate to tell you this, but he's right. It may be an isk sink for you personally... you the player do indeed have less isk than you started... however the total amount of isk in game has not decreased because you gave the isk to another player. That's why even with t2 ships, it's not an isk sink... that in combination with the fact that t1 ships actually add isk to the game with the insurance is why he's talking about pvp not being an isk sink.
Remember... there's a difference between how much isk you personally have in your wallet and how that fluctuates, and how much isk is in game and how that fluctuates.
This is incorrect.
The math is fairly simple: 1+1 = 2 This represents buying a ship, there is the ISK of the ship itself and the ISK paid for the ship. This means there are two units of ISK blocks in the game.
When the ship is lost the equation is also as simple: 2-1 = 1 In other words, without insurance the ship is a total loss for that player, but the ISK he paid stays in game. Thats all well and good but the fact is of the units and assets involved there is only half the amount left.
Just like mining for minerals yourself isn't 'free' disappearing ships aren't valueless.
Ummm.... no there's not two units of isk blocks in the game when viewed from that perspective. One side of the equation is isk... the other side of the equation is composed of minerals. I absolutely agree that minerals are not valueless, however minerals are also not isk and we're talking about the amount of isk in the eve economy mate.
you have x amount of minerals and you build a ship. I purchase that ship for y amount of isk. I've now given you the isk, and accepted the ship. when I lose my ship, the minerals will have vanished from game, but not the isk I gave you. The entirety of the isk I gave you still exists in the eve economy. Whether I'm insured or not, or whether i'm in T2 or not doesn't change that basic starting point.
Please note: that doesnt mean that I consider minerals to be valueless... it's just that they are not isk. They can be converted into isk, but they themselves are not isk. The fact that I possess x amount of tritanium, has not altered the total amount of isk in the eve economy by one jot. I'm hoping you'll be able to figure out that this is not the same thing as considering minerals to have no value because they are "free". LOLS.
Thanks for trying to chip in though! 
Edit: Ok... I see in your later posts you've converted the argument to be about loss of value. that's fine. Just remember the original discussion was about the isk in the eve economy. If we want to talk about all elements of value in the eve economy, that's fine... just recognize that it's changing the subject to a completely different topic. You can't take a comment made exclusively about isk, and then answer it as if the conversation had been about "value"... you're talking about very different things.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.29 12:19:00 -
[68]
Wouldnt removing insurance altogether help it? Leave insurance for newbs for a month into game, remove from everything for everyone else. Suddenly losing 100BS fleet will not mean you lost 1bil isk (average difference between insurance payout and ship+insurance cost) but you lost 10bil. "ouch".
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Wedric
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Posted - 2009.06.29 16:48:00 -
[69]
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Capital ships
Fighters (20 mil each)
POS
Endless Supplies of HACs
0.0 Space
T2 BPOs or Mass Invention
T3
The losses of the above are the isk sink in endgame. I'm perfectly fine with being called an elitiest, so I think those of you living in empire and suggesting that "endgame" is t1 suicide ganking ships should get out and experience what only 7-8% of the entire EVE population experiences (according to last CCP population numbers? not sure), which is the joy of 0.0 and all the fun that goes along with holding space. I would put forward that anyone who has experienced the "endgame" in 0.0 is not calling for isk sinks.
Though after the Cap fight in DK- this morning I'm a bit suprised that the above poster would consider removing insurance...
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2009.06.30 11:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Wedric
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Basically I just think ther ought to be some expensive stuff that wealthy players can spend their ISK on, so that there's less pressure on investments/IPOs and in-game banks as seen in Market Discussion.
Any time someone makes an IPO post, people flock to it, disregarding common sense, audits and so forth.
Many players have more ISK than they can spend. That's what I want addressed. Give those players something to spend their ISK on.
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Salpad |
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DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2009.06.30 15:53:00 -
[71]
You could mass produce T3 crusers.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.30 16:00:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Salpad
Many players have more ISK than they can spend. That's what I want addressed. Give those players something to spend their ISK on.
Problem is: There are also vet players that dont have much wealth and income. They spend most what they get to have some fun (burning ships).
Not everybody optimized on economics.
Removal of the insurance would hit them most.
I have no problem when there are players who enjoyed economics and now have lots of isk around. They spend lots of time and effort to get there.
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.06.30 16:57:00 -
[73]
There are plenty of ways for a player to dump his personal isk. I'm not sure the game actually needs true blooded money sinks because for a lot of players they don't have the disposable isk to dump into them anyway. I can't see me dumping isk into a vanity item, ever, I'd rather have another HAC please.
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Daugar Draaken
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Posted - 2009.06.30 17:01:00 -
[74]
Eve has a severe end-game vacuum. Normally, I couldn't care less, not until those end-game players, soaked to the eyeballs with skills, money, experience and synergy, wander into my neck of the woods and, sipping an espresso and yawning, clicks and send my ship, pod, character and reanimation insurance a week back in progress.
There are solutions to this - an extremely seductive powergame at the billion ISK range player of the eveverse, where players become a "power block" rather than a "ship". Now hold that thought for a second.
This *synergetic" game involves NOT (or less) ship combat - but instead the cultivation of a powerful entity in Eve
- say, a corporation. Or mercenaries, Or a freaky cult. Or a trading block. Or vigilantes. Or a radical political group. Or a rogue (not "rouge") cyborg cult breaking all the laws. Or pirates. Or drug peddlers. Mutants. Or jovian spies. Or a bank. Or the surviving corporate interests of IBM.
Or anything else you cared imagine, and which fits in the constraints of a comprehensive factional strategy game.
This player-genrated power is active, somewhere in eve, maybe on that starbase you know and love, or maybe somewhere in an apparently derelict space station the size (and comtamination levels) of Jersey. And this game incorporates "in role" (consistent, persistent) goals, abilities (a cult has different abilities than a corporate mercenary group). It might work through several facades.
SURE, many current eve players won't see the merit, but many others would. Better still, it would take an hour every day out of the time allotment of high end OCD PK gamers in eve (and that means 10% less people quitting eve online because they got PKed *again* - and it would be a unique way to generate plots.
These organizations (maybe several per system, eventually) might hire low end players to clean up the drone infestation mess left behind by another powerbroker. They would (should) be constructing visible objects in Eve-Space, such as new stations, industrial facilities, occupying abandoned structures. If this additive program is good enough, this device might generate plots and interactivity that no amount of GMs, codemonkeys and writers would be able to generate.
Think about it. Eve is ideally suited for it, and I might argue, needs it. Think something like a very widely dispersed "simcity" interface, right in the eve client, that allows building of structures, the habitation of structures, all kinds of intense commercial and corporate transactions, hiring low-level playes to haul freights or attack other power blocks, move people, create or end wars, loan money, speculate, manipulate, spread a barrage of information and disinformation.
And the game interface and ID should at every turn have all kinds of interesting (NON-PK) implications for players of humbler means.
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Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.30 17:46:00 -
[75]
So some guys need a isk sink? lucky for u im around, pls transfer al the isk u find unwanted to me
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 10:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Wedric
I think if you reference "endgame," then you need to think what endgame is.
Capital ships
Fighters (20 mil each)
POS
Endless Supplies of HACs
0.0 Space
T2 BPOs or Mass Invention
T3
The losses of the above are the isk sink in endgame. I'm perfectly fine with being called an elitiest, so I think those of you living in empire and suggesting that "endgame" is t1 suicide ganking ships should get out and experience what only 7-8% of the entire EVE population experiences (according to last CCP population numbers? not sure), which is the joy of 0.0 and all the fun that goes along with holding space. I would put forward that anyone who has experienced the "endgame" in 0.0 is not calling for isk sinks.
Though after the Cap fight in DK- this morning I'm a bit suprised that the above poster would consider removing insurance...
I would. I know everyone chestbeats how "cap fleet was destroyed". Wow. You know it has been already replaced (at least isk-wise, just need to buy and move ships now). And even "non-spaceholding" alliance like tri can afford multiple capital fleets like one we lost. Pretty much moon mining income is so stupidly high that after you have 5-10 moons you dont bother with isk. Its virtually infinite.
Alliances like tcf/razor/mm/pl can pretty much lose around 200caps a month and still have spare isk after replacing em. Same goes for BS fleets. You pay around 60mil for full fit BS (mods, rigs, after counting insurance). With income of around 200-400bil/month its not a problem to replace hundreds of those.
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Miilla
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Posted - 2009.07.01 11:39:00 -
[77]
Endgame? There is no end game.
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