Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:07:00 -
[1]
Hello gentlemen, let me first state the reference material for this post, by the end of reading which I hope you already agree with me that we have a serious problem.
Mineral value per unit.
Tritanium: 4.1 Pyerite: 3.84 Mexallon: 31
Isogen: 55 Nocxium: 85
Zydrine: 1524 Megacyte: 4048
Ore value per m3
Veldspar: 120 Scordite: 100 Pyroxeres: 83 Plagioclase: 94 Omber: 62 Kernite: 97 Jaspet: 53 Hemorphite: 61 Hedbergite: 79 Gneiss: 144 Dark Ochre: 134 Crokite: 263 Spodumain: 143 Bistot: 380 Arkonor: 502
Ore value per hour (assuming 1859 m3/minute, which is what a perfect hulk yields)
Veldspar: 13,384,800 Scordite: 11,154,000 Pyroxeres: 9,257,820 Plagioclase: 10,484,760 Omber: 6,915,480 Kernite: 10,819,380 Jaspet: 5,911,620 Hemorphite: 6,803,940 Hedbergite: 8,811,660 Gneiss: 16,061,760 Dark Ochre: 14,946,360 Crokite: 29,335,020 Spodumain: 15,950,220 Bistot: 42,385,200 Arkonor: 55,993,080
Other methods of income (assuming comparable skill-training and ISK investment as the perfect skill hulk previously mentioned)
Ratting 20,000,000-30,000,000 hourly assuming 950k+ spawns
Missions 15,000,000-25,000,000 hourly depending on the mission
---
Okay, as you can see above mining is worth practically nothing unless you are mining Arkonor, Bistot, or Crokite (Hereafter known as "ABC"). Even then in deepest darkest 0.0 space mining the most premium ore that your alliance had to spam towers like crazy and do 500 man fleet fights every day for a year to win you are only getting x3 the value of doing missions in high-sec.
On top of that, it takes more than one character to mine. At a MINIMUM you need two characters to reach the gross I listed, and if depending on where you live you might need three minimum. This reduces the net value of the ore dramatically, and in many situations mining in 0.0 you will be making the same amount of ISK per account mining Arkonor as you would account running an L4 mission.
Ratting is even easier, requires nothing besides skills and a ship, and with three account ratting in three premium systems you would be raking it in AND have a shot at officer spawns which could potentially shoot your isk/hour through the roof to as much as double normal.
What this basically means is that mining is a complete waste of time, as mining in something as juicy as a hulk in 0.0 you will likely attract every roaming ganksquad while in empire you do not even need to watch local in the first place. Also, the time it takes to run ore to empire from the far away arkonor areas must be factored in (and this is not an insignificant amount of time in many cases).
--
TL;DR Mining the best ore in the game is on par with running any given level 4 in empire in terms of gross profits (much less net), despite the vast disparity in difficulty, time investment, and account(s) needed. |
Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:17:00 -
[2]
I'm betting that ABC ores will crash eventually as well, as more and more people figure out that wormhole mining gives you the same benefits as nullsec with the same level of risk but without the pain-in-assness. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:17:00 -
[3]
You can have a perfect miner in 3 months.
low skill = low income
tl;dr l2p |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:18:00 -
[4]
And this was news a few months ago... |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Asuka Smith TL;DR Mining the best ore in the game is on par with running any given level 4 in empire in terms of gross profits (much less net), despite the vast disparity in difficulty, time investment, and account(s) needed.
Hello and welcome to ALMOST TWO YEARS AGO... possible solution.
|
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:24:00 -
[6]
Agreed. Mining needs to be completely redone. I would rather work in an actual coal mine then mine in EVE. |
TimMc
Gallente Extradition
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Agreed. Mining needs to be completely redone. I would rather work in an actual coal mine then mine in EVE.
ummm... I would rather mine on eve. |
Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:42:00 -
[8]
It's dying so fast that there are Hulks everywhere AFK mining away. |
Zodern
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 00:43:00 -
[9]
If you're upset with the low profitability of mining... move to a more profitable occupation. If enough miners follow suit, supply of minerals will drop, making them sell for more, increasing the profitability and nudging mining towards equilibrium with some of the other activities.
Which, while a nice theory, is unfortunately completely destroyed by the people who macro mine (for personal profit, for outside sale of ISK, for whatever), who have absolutely zero incentive to switch to anything else, meaning that even if ore value fell to a fraction of what it is now, they'd still have every reason to continue and to multiply, further driving down prices. Macro users foul up the market terribly, breaking the normal model. Remove them, and you solve the problem of low earnings for honest miners, letting market forces do their job.
Now, since CCP makes money from having active accounts for all the macro'ers, and even if they didn't have that conflict of interest, the problem is notoriously difficult for MMORPGs to deal with... Well the only thing I can tell ya is that we need more people shooting macro'ed hulks! |
Cat o'Ninetails
Rancer Defence League
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:02:00 -
[10]
i have a friend who is a miner. my friend does alright, and has been enjoying manufacturing without facetious buy orders too lol
x |
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:07:00 -
[11]
Your ratting numbers are crap.
Its possible to achieve that but few people have access to space that is secure yet empty enough to achieve that. |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:37:00 -
[12]
it is in so much trouble i mean ships just make themselves and require no ORE what so ever
you just throw isk in thin air and out pop's a abaddon
nope you just buy the ships and have yet to realise where they come from
and no a stalk doesnt bring it |
deerslayer
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: deerslayer on 27/06/2009 01:39:03 So your complaining that: very low skill + near zero risk + no cost of ammo (unless crystals which is very cheap) = lower income?? Seriously, you want high income of missioners who have to have a fairly pimped out ship to do lvl 4's well + cost of ammo + risk of ship going boom.
Bad troll try again. If you want a better income do something that requires risk. You know what they say, no risk no reward, mining is no risk and should be very low reward. |
temponita
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Armoured C it is in so much trouble i mean ships just make themselves and require no ORE what so ever
According to modern science, this would be perfectly logical(forces of evolution) :) |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 01:57:00 -
[15]
Where is the mercoxit? |
Baba Ganouche
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:07:00 -
[16]
If people aren't happy with the profits they are making from mining, they will do something else which means less ore gets mined and mineral prices go up which in turn makes mining more profitable.
Mining can never be 'dying' because the less people doing it the more profitable it is.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Wendat Huron Where is the mercoxit?
At around 25 mil ISK/hour.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:24:00 -
[18]
I don't see a problem in mining CCP seem to change the respawn amount to daily. Also Those prices you freaking earn well if your have high skills in mining. If your not very weel skilled in it then tuff crap deal with it.
I am a Pro miner and I happy with it most of all with the respawn amount of ore thats not available. 4.1 for trit in my eyes very high when it use to be 1.2 if 4-5 years ago. Also atm I noticing the prices of minerals are going down a little! Which should mean cheaper ships to more pvp.
Before last weekend I would love to have no loot in lvl 4 missions and 3's. not there enough ore i just happy as it is.
PS i am drunk today sorry |
Fit Alt
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:26:00 -
[19]
Is there actually anyone who mines without a Macro these days? I mean seriously is there?
Everwhere I look there are macro ratters and miners yet CCP don't seem to give a flying ****, maybe...just maybe this is why mining as a legit profession is dying, because it aint a legit and level playing field for the people who do actually mine legitimately.
Just maybe? I've yet to meet anyone who mines without some kind of macro, except on big corp mining ops. |
Demon Azrakel
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Baba Ganouche If people aren't happy with the profits they are making from mining, they will do something else which means less ore gets mined and mineral prices go up which in turn makes mining more profitable.
Mining can never be 'dying' because the less people doing it the more profitable it is.
Because we all know that macro miners will just stop and run level 4s because of low profits |
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: northwesten Which should mean cheaper ships to more pvp.
Incorect. The price of ships is (barring any sudden surges in needs due to patches introducing new ship variants) already at the rock-bottom level which is allowed by insurance... and it's been there for a long time. T1 ship prices can't go any lower than what they already are.
|
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Baba Ganouche If people aren't happy with the profits they are making from mining, they will do something else which means less ore gets mined and mineral prices go up which in turn makes mining more profitable.
Mining can never be 'dying' because the less people doing it the more profitable it is.
This would be true if about half of lower-end minerals didn't come from reprocessed loot rather than ore. |
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: northwesten Which should mean cheaper ships to more pvp.
Incorect. The price of ships is (barring any sudden surges in needs due to patches introducing new ship variants) already at the rock-bottom level which is allowed by insurance... and it's been there for a long time. T1 ship prices can't go any lower than what they already are.
I can't see how they cant! if mineral cost go down and yet prices stay the same means large profits! Tho you can lower your price to compete with other sellers! I keep it simple and don't see how they can't. |
Nouva MacGyver
Caldari MacGyver Communications
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 02:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: deerslayer Edited by: deerslayer on 27/06/2009 01:39:03 very low skill + near zero risk + no cost of ammo = lower too high an income as compared to income earned for activities with finite and at least contestable resources
A.K.A High-Sec, high level (level 4) mission running. The first two parts of your original equation was not changed. Therein in the edited equation above lies a relation to the unprofitability of some of the scenarios mentioned in the OP. Go have a think about it. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: northwesten I can't see how they cant! if mineral cost go down and yet prices stay the same means large profits! Tho you can lower your price to compete with other sellers! I keep it simple and don't see how they can't.
Assuming you REALLY don't see how this works, let me explain.
Take a Raven, for instance. Let's only talk "Jita prices". The same applies in other regional hubs too. If you have a Raven BPO researched to, say, ME:20, even disregarding the initial price of the BPO and the research on it and the opportunity cost of selling blueprint copies instead of manufacturing, it will STILL cost you either 79.8 mil ISK to manufacture it with minerals bought from sell orders, or around 78.7 mil ISK if you place your own mineral buy orders. Let's call that a round 79 mil. Now, if you sell to existing buy orders, you're not making much of a profit, you might actually lose some heavy duty cash if you bought the minerals from the market. So, you have to use sell orders to sell your ship at a profit... and the profit is not very high, you sell it right now for around 82 mil, when you paid (or forefited) around 79 mil... that's less than 3% profit margin right there, razor thin. In a VERY good day, you might get up to 10%, but that's about it.
Now... assume for a second the minerals would not cost 79 mil, but, umm... say, 20 mil. By your logic, you should be able to sell the ship at 25 mil ISK and make a hefty profit, right ? WRONG. The best profit would be made if you took the ship, platinum-insured it, then self-destructed it. It would cost you 32.625 mil ISK and yield 108.75 mil ISK, or a grand total price of 76.125 mil ISK. If you have the least bit of brains, YOU WILL NEVER sell a Raven if you don't get at least 76.125 mil ISK out of that deal.
Now, considering that you also need to pay at least 0.5% sales tax and at least 0.2% broker fee (and that's with maximum skills and maximum standings), that number goes up to almost 76.66 mil ISK. But, considering you will probably also want some minimal profit margin from that (say, around 2.5%) and assuming your skills and standings aren't all that great (another 1.5% or so on taxes), and rounding up a little bit, you arrive at a price of around 79.2 mil ISK. Oh, wait, isn't that ALMOST EXACTLY the price Raven buy orders are set up to be ?
So, yeah... really, T1 ship prices can't possibly get noticeably lower than what they already are.
|
Sin Sorak
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Sin Sorak on 27/06/2009 03:05:39
Originally by: Fit Alt Is there actually anyone who mines without a Macro these days? I mean seriously is there?
Everwhere I look there are macro ratters and miners yet CCP don't seem to give a flying ****, maybe...just maybe this is why mining as a legit profession is dying, because it aint a legit and level playing field for the people who do actually mine legitimately.
Just maybe? I've yet to meet anyone who mines without some kind of macro, except on big corp mining ops.
Yes but I'm starting to wonder why in all honestly. I have 1 Orca, 2 hulks and 1 basic retriever toon. I think at best I can make around 30 to 35 mil an hour with the gang bonus but doesn't include hauling.
Also trit isn't even 4.1 where I'm at close to Rens, it's 3.90 ish. The plan was to mine and manufacture but after I started I realized how hard it was to get my own BPO's researched. Granted I can pay for my accounts with ISK, but I do wonder if it's really worth it.
I mean I could sell all my miners right now, then buy 1 Mission Running/Ratting toon and stick him out in null sec somewhere and likely make pretty close to what I make running 4 mining toons.
I actually do understand why there are so many macros, because mining really does suck in the end. Also lets not forget those mission runners get standings and LP points. My belt miners barely get a security increase killing the rats in belts.
btw B4 anyone comes into say use 3 Hulks because, you make more.. Well that's not true, because I'd have to haul the ore back. That and the only way I can find enough Veld is to go off to a station less system. |
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: northwesten stuff
I hope that wasn't attitude in the post! As I wasn't giving any my self. Tho By your post I understand where you coming from. Learn something new I guess. |
Bakkhai
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fit Alt Is there actually anyone who mines without a Macro these days? I mean seriously is there?
Everwhere I look there are macro ratters and miners yet CCP don't seem to give a flying ****, maybe...just maybe this is why mining as a legit profession is dying, because it aint a legit and level playing field for the people who do actually mine legitimately.
Just maybe? I've yet to meet anyone who mines without some kind of macro, except on big corp mining ops.
I mine without a macro. It's one of the few things you can do alone and on your own and on your own clock... it's relaxing and picturesque. That's part of EvE too. Granted I don't make much money, but then again I don't spend much either.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/06/2009 03:35:55
Originally by: northwesten I hope that wasn't attitude in the post! As I wasn't giving any my self. Tho By your post I understand where you coming from. Learn something new I guess.
I took into account both possibilities (as it was not easily discernable which one of those it was), and answered accordingly in the opening phrase
And by the way, the reverse also works - if T1 ship prices can't (much) go below what they currently are, this ALSO means that the minerals themselves (as a "basket" in the proportions necessary for T1 ship construction) also can't go below a certain (slightly lower) level. In other words, the minerals needed to build a Raven will never go (much) below 76 mil ISK or thereabouts, no matter how many minerals are injected into the economy by any possible means.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar Quam Singulari Cult of War
|
Posted - 2009.06.27 03:50:00 -
[30]
In EVE Gemini: Tritanium 1 ISK Pyerite 4 ISK Mexallon 16 ISK Isogen 64 ISK Nocxium| 512 ISK Zydrine 1024 ISK Megacyte 4096 ISK Morphite (Didn't EXIST !!)
Try getting ANY kind of profit/BPO with these NPC prices !
OMG, the sky is falling on our heads and mining is dead in EVE.
Time to stop production !!!
---
Enough of the sarcasm now.
The EVE market prices are dictated by it's players. If people are prepared to pay that much, then it's worth that much (to them and others).
There is no "CCP Controlled Regulation" on the price of anything (missing out the NPC Shuttle/Trit/unit cap thing here).
If you can sell it for more and the market is willing to pay, then that is the price that the market dictates.
Now, that being said, if you think that you are selling your minerals at too low a price, considering the the risk involved and comparing it to the price of minerals (don't forget the quantity of refined NPC modules = minerals), and you still think that its still not worth it then ...
1) Do missions and train up scrap metal skills ... 2) Set up a miner's union, with a fixed minimum price. 3) Create a 2nd account to assist. 4) Resign yourself to your assumed "complete waste of time" attitude and do something else (even if that means quitting EVE).
CU --
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |