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Mining as a profession is in serious trouble

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Halada Caldari Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.28 05:14:00 - [91] The profession isn't dying and is still very lucrative if you find the good 0.0 spots. The biggest mistake CCP ever made was the drone regions. Whatever creative consultant thought of that one should be fired immediatly. How they thought it would be a good idea to give ratters a way to earn mineral is beyond me... drone regions really contributed to the crashing of high end, though it has nothing to do with the low-end. Caps and supercaps better explain the drop for mid-ends and rise of low-end, making veldspar one of the most protitable ore, even for low-sec. There is already a mining revamp in the works (modifications) but a total revamp would be a mistake, it would destroy the economy, one that heavily relies on mineral supply. Also because I don't want to re-write the whole thing
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.28 07:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Venkul Mul 10% difference is not minor or insignificant, way less a 23 to 43 millions difference. Ehem... That you CHOOSE to run inefficient missions is your fault, not mine...... If you choose to run inefficient missions, then what you should compare against is a guy in a Retriver mining omber... Still just as big difference comparatively. My comparison is against the top mining 'safe' activity, mining veld with a Hulk in high-sec. Naturally I use a top efficient setup and agent (I could do even better if I used an SoE agent)..... Just like most other mission runners.... It's a question about game balance, and one form of earning money should not out-compete the others by a factor of 3+! Thus CCP rightly should reduce earnings from L4's (drastically). From your data, CCP should reduce Caldari level 4 missions drastically and other missions way less, so that all empire faction get about the same reward and that reward is in line with each other and with mining. A blanket 50% cut would still keep Caldari missions as the most rewarding. Keeping in mind that missions have a higher level of risk from NPC than mining, require higher number of SP and a higher cost equipment. That changes should include a revamping of the LP stores so that each race/faction has some decent item in it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.28 07:35:00 - [93] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Mara Rinn You forgot to divide by two, since you're running those missions in a Golem and have an alt salvaging for you. Also, is that time counted from mission acceptance, all the way through to having salvage and loot in hangar? Sorry. When two separate people are running a mission, then you divide by two. When its one person with an alt, you don't. All that money is going to one person, in the end that is all that matters. Then if you are mining with 4 accounts you will sum up the mineral value and say that you can get 40+ millions/hour mining veldspar?
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.06.28 08:24:00 - [94] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/06/2009 08:25:35 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Kerfira My post From your data, CCP should reduce Caldari level 4 missions drastically and other missions way less, so that all empire faction get about the same reward and that reward is in line with each other and with mining. A blanket 50% cut would still keep Caldari missions as the most rewarding. That would be a good 1st step, but it is more difficult to do than to say. CCP can directly influence mission income in the form of reward money and bounties, but have much less control over LP/Salvage/Loot as the price of these follow player demand. Lower LP, and prices for the good store items would simply go up, probably leaving the mission runner with the same amount of money. This is one reason I think increasing the difficulty is the best way as it hits ALL of the different types. Removing basic T1 items from the loot tables will both help the mining profession, and remove income for mission runners. Originally by: Venkul Mul Keeping in mind that missions have a higher level of risk from NPC than mining, require higher number of SP and a higher cost equipment. I would not say that L4's have much of a risk (if any at all).... I'd more say that they have a higher penalty if a stupid player doesn't pay attention. To be perfect, yes missioning require more SP/equip, but to be decent, I'd say that they're probably about the same... L4's are EASY! Originally by: Venkul Mul That changes should include a revamping of the LP stores so that each race/faction has some decent item in it. Unfortunately, whether an item is decent or not is largely player driven, though I do agree that the distribution of items in the stores seem to have been a late Friday afternoon job done by a dev who desperately wanted to go partying! My personal opinion about the LP stores is that the prices should be dynamic, not static. If an item was popular the price should go up, if not popular the price should go down. That would balance all the stores in a few weeks as items would find their NATURAL price instead of the artificial (and totally out of whack) prices CCP has set for the items. The current static prices just ensures that 90% of the offers are never used... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.28 10:46:00 - [95] More or less I would say we have got an agreement.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.28 11:29:00 - [96] only 20-30m an hour ratting? You're doing it wrong. With loot and salvage you should be doubling that figure.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.06.28 12:11:00 - [97] Originally by: Black Leather Mining and missioning. Like those are the only two ways to make iskies Forget the Golem. I can park my Ishkur in certain complexes (not to be named) and make between 50 and 200mil an hour. What a bunch of sheep this game produces. Thank god. If it weren't for all you followers, free thinkers like the few of use that do what I do for income would be making a lot less than we do. Keep it up, little lambs Ohnoes, what are you saying So that there are other ways to spend your time to make huge amount of iskies besides missioning and mining might be true for a veteran EVE player, but for a forum warrior with an obvious agenda it is not. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Jabezhane	Posted - 2009.06.28 16:13:00 - [98] Originally by: Viule Sawyr Edited by: Viule Sawyr on 28/06/2009 00:27:18 Congrats! You managed to miss the entire point I was making and the point of this topic.... We were comparing income vs miners and LVL4 mission runners. As stated in this topic, 1 LVL4 mission runner can make more per Hour than 3 mining toons. Running 1 hulk is a bit different than running 4. Try running that hulk times 4 because you have to do all the same things 4 times. Meaning you don't click the mining lasers and go off to do something for 20 mins. With gang links and high leadership skills and high mining skills, you are cycling the mining lasers and moving ore as much as some guy in a LVL4 is targeting ships and engaging his guns. While it might be boring it certainly isn't something you can sit by idly and do unless you are mining ice. Even then you still have to move the ore, just not as often. btw getting rid of Orca would make your point even worse.. With out the orca a single mining toon would be lucky to make 10mil/hr. Meanwhile a single LVL4 mission toon or ratting toon can make 30 to 40mil. Yet you think mining is too easy and needs no Orcas? At 10mil and hour a single mining toon would require over 40 hours of mining to buy a 30day plex. That sound right to you? Seems a bit like income from mining sucks don't yea think? No the issue is mining is now too easy (hey nearly everyone is doing it) and therefore the reward is comparitively less. Its just as it should be. If you guys think scrapping over every last bit of veld is fun well you just carry on. Thats the only challenge...finding belts. As you say do the lvl4's and make more. Far more interesting...for a while. No one said this game should be easy to self finance through grinding rocks. Show me the small print where it says that you should be able to play this game from effort alone? Life isnt fair. Get used to it.
Drykor Minmatar Reform-Revolt	Posted - 2009.06.28 16:28:00 - [99] Originally by: Asuka Smith Missions (least risky) 15,000,000-50,000,000 hourly depending on the mission Me and my CNR must be doing it wrong.
Ohhh Matron	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:27:00 - [100] Originally by: Drykor Originally by: Asuka Smith Missions (least risky) 15,000,000-50,000,000 hourly depending on the mission Me and my CNR must be doing it wrong. Folks always exagerrate. The other one I love is "just get aggro, let out the sentries and go do something else!"

Viule Sawyr	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:43:00 - [101] Edited by: Viule Sawyr on 28/06/2009 17:46:34 Originally by: Jabezhane No the issue is mining is now too easy (hey nearly everyone is doing it) and therefore the reward is comparitively less. Its just as it should be. If you guys think scrapping over every last bit of veld is fun well you just carry on. Thats the only challenge...finding belts. As you say do the lvl4's and make more. Far more interesting...for a while. No one said this game should be easy to self finance through grinding rocks. Show me the small print where it says that you should be able to play this game from effort alone? Life isnt fair. Get used to it. That is "your" opinion.. My opinion is doing LVL4's is boring and tedious at best. At least with mining I can jet can into my PVPer can and get a little PVP action. Oh and considering it's been confirmed that most of the minerals these days comes from mission drops. Well it's easy to see that "more" people are doing missions than mining. Meaning your entire argument is flawed. Where on the forums to do ever see people complaining about their missions are all gone by 12pm eve time? Where do you see people complaining about not being able to find any missions because the macros ate them all? Not only do missions give bounty's,loot drops that can be either sold or converted to minerals.. it also gives standings increase and LP points. Mining you get some crappy rat droppings and a very small security increase. Income generated from missions is at min 3 times better for a single toon than it is for a miner. LVL4's aren't much of a risk either unless you are a noob and Income wise in high sec you need 3 mining toons in Hulks with maxed skills to make the same as 1 LVL4 toon. It appears the only way mining can compete to LVL4 missions is if you go off to 0.0 or WH space. Then it just "equals" what a LVL4 "high" sec mission runner can make per hour. Sorry but the whole risk vs reward is very skewed and mining is no where near on par with mission running income. Despite the fact that miners have to compete with mission runners in selling minerals.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:44:00 - [102] It's almost like highsec isn't your own instance of space.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:45:00 - [103] Originally by: me It's not even the issue of highsec mining vs highsec anything else, but rather highsec vs lowsec mining. When the ore that's supposedly the most abundant (and worth the least, base price and backstory-wise) is worth more refined than just about any other refined highsec or lowsec ore, you do have a serious problem. ahem EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:45:00 - [104] Edited by: Akita T on 28/06/2009 17:45:06 damn forum doublepost EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:48:00 - [105] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: me It's not even the issue of highsec mining vs highsec anything else, but rather highsec vs lowsec mining. When the ore that's supposedly the most abundant (and worth the least, base price and backstory-wise) is worth more refined than just about any other refined highsec or lowsec ore, you do have a serious problem. ahem Good thing there's a lot of ABC belts then. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:49:00 - [106] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Good thing there's a lot of ABC belts then. ... in lowsec ? BELTS ? EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:51:00 - [107] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: An Anarchyyt Good thing there's a lot of ABC belts then. ... in lowsec ? BELTS ? Well see, Tank CEO is the root of all mining problems. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Strrogash	Posted - 2009.06.29 07:27:00 - [108] The OP has got a point , but we all miss one important factor is that 40 % of minerals that are in the market come from reprocessed loot , now depending on the logistics and how many poeple do missions or ratting in low secs / and other 40 % from drones ; for example in few days of mission running leve 4s i recycled with my miner enough loot to build a megathron or something close to 90 mill worth in minerals !! IF i remember correctly CCP stats show that only 10 % of ore comes from actual mining....now with all these macro miners it leaves very few real miners less then 10% of minerlas suppliers.... So resume regarding OP is that sum options of aking money are so much better the best is lv4 mission running and ratting .. ratting in low secs can even be bettter if u trip over a decent module.... besides bounties and some good modules you also salvage and get almost full set of minerls accounting the usage of 2 chars respectively. The value of miner is small , because you can get minerlas in alternative ways. And at current proportions its not right at all...
Mac Maniac Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.07 23:09:00 - [109] Edited by: Mac Maniac on 07/07/2009 23:09:52 Strrogash is absolutely correct... as long as loot is supplying 40% of the market minerals NOTHING you do to the belts is going to make a difference... Look at the overall percentages.. This is a breakdown of the percentages of the mins supplied on the market by loot 70% pye.. loot 70% mex.. loot 79% Iso.. loot 83% Nocs.. loot 58% Zyd.. loot Until you address the massive amounts of the mid grade ores supplied strictly by loot adjusting the belts simply does not address the mining issues.
GigaIndy Gigacorp	Posted - 2009.07.07 23:30:00 - [110] Mining it self is not the problem, it does not need a boost. What needs nerfed is the sheer volume of minerals mission runners are dumping on the markets, at any price. Less refine loot from missions, missions are overpowered anyway, they could use a refine nerf, giving them less cash, while giving miners a boost.

Cor Aidan Imperium Forces Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.07.07 23:41:00 - [111] For those folks that think you can make 50-60M/hour including loot and salvage ratting and running L4s: Yes, it is possible for individuals to do this, but it is not possible for the majority of individuals to do this. You can only get that isk for your loot and salvage if someone has extra isk with which to buy it. In the long run, the isk/hour for an activity ends up being capped at the pure isk/hour injection rate into the system from bounties, rewards and bonuses, and insurance payouts. It will necessarily be less than this, however, because of transaction tax, clone fees, rental, skill book purchases, etc. Note that for mining, it will never be possible on average to match isk/hour from ratting or running missions because the mission runners and ratters must split their isk between purchasing minerals (or things made from minerals) and other things like insurance, skill books, etc. Note that I say "on average" because there are individuals that will do better than average and those that do worse. What I think is really important isn't so much isk anyway, but "how much time does it take to obtain X skills, fleet of ships, etc." I would argue that because of things like 0.0 ratting and L4 missions, it's now easier to get skills and other things than it used to be. Brand-new characters likely won't even see the effects, because if they sell loot or minerals at inflated prices, they have an equal footing for purchasing ships and modules but can afford to buy NPC items much faster. So I'll only start worrying when it starts taking more hours to get the next ship, not if it takes more isk.
Kat Bandeis Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.07 23:43:00 - [112] The only problem is the insane proliferation of Hulk's in high sec. Can't swing a dead cat out here without hitting one... grumble grumble Some belts I had to myself a year or six months ago are now crawling with Hulks. Damned annoying, for a purely selfish reason.
Liz Laser Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:01:00 - [113] Mining will continue to be a sad panda profession as long as it continues to be macroed, and as long as high-sec rat loot can be refined for megacyte and zyd. To make mining worthwhile, remove macros and make it so there are minerals that can't be gotten from refining rat loot. Rat loot should refine to something useful, but it shouldn't provide nearly the variety of minerals that it does. Make it refine to the same 2 or 3 minerals and whatever ores yield the other minerals will keep miners gainfully employed.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:06:00 - [114] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i have a friend who is a miner. my friend does alright, and has been enjoying manufacturing without facetious buy orders too lol x Attempting to use the word "facetious" correctly and failing. /me feigns shock Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:10:00 - [115] Read Akita T's proposal in the CSM assembly hall. It has some interesting approaches. sigh For once I agree with Akita (and agreeing on the alchemy stuff also). Seems like the end of Eve is nigh!
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:32:00 - [116] L4 > everything. Ore can be taken from reprocessed loot. Stop mining. Effects: Life in 0.0 would be so expensive, noone would ever live there. Too bad I have no access to CCP databases, I'd like to compute this and see how this would effect the market.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:39:00 - [117] I haven't mined for a long while except for corp ops. All my minerals come from lvl 4 missions. In fact, I got enough minerals now to build myself another Orca. That this is so easily possible clearly shows how mission loot screws mining over. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:10:00 - [118] Originally by: Cor Aidan ... In the long run, the isk/hour for an activity ends up being capped at the pure isk/hour injection rate into the system from bounties, rewards and bonuses, and insurance payouts. It will necessarily be less than this, however, because of transaction tax, clone fees, rental, skill book purchases, etc. Note that for mining, it will never be possible on average to match isk/hour from ratting or running missions because the mission runners and ratters must split their isk between purchasing minerals (or things made from minerals) and other things like insurance, skill books, etc. Note that I say "on average" because there are individuals that will do better than average and those that do worse. ... I don't agree.. Your figures are based on the assumption that there is (simple case) the same number of miners vs mission runners and that the products they create are needed on a 1:1 ratio. If the Mission runners would be the only source of isk and the miners would rival with the isk sinks you would be right. But.. 1) How many miners would be "needed" per mission runner?.. if the ratio is 1 miner per 2 mission runner the miner CAN earn as much isk/hr as the mission runner. 2) How much of the minerals the miner produces is needed by the mission runner?.. if 1 miner can supply several mission runners the miner CAN earn as much isk/hr as the mission runner.
Abulurd Boniface Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:20:00 - [119] Originally by: Fit Alt Is there actually anyone who mines without a Macro these days? I mean seriously is there? Just maybe? I've yet to meet anyone who mines without some kind of macro, except on big corp mining ops. Glad to make your acquaintance. I have never used any kind of assistance to mine. It's all me driving the bus. I tend to agree with OP. Mining is an underestimated profession, money-wise. I don't agree that less miners would mean less minerals because of the salvage mechanic. There would be more salvage, which would yield more minerals. It seems a good idea to just reduce the amount of minerals from salvaging -or- maybe the loot dropped from ships could be of a different nature. No salvage for minerals but other useful resources. Something must be possible. I also don't agree that low-risk should yield low pay. Drilling for oil is a low-risk activity, the oil producers are among the wealthiest corporations on the planet. Drill oil, refine oil, sell diesel/gas. It's not exactly the domain of deep thinkers, is it? Other than that: if you just keep mining you'll get rich eventually. A high-level mission runner needs to be unlucky just once to be out of a fair amount of money. A miner who can avoid harassment from flippers needs only a modest investment to yield very comfortable returns. It just takes some time and a HUMONGOUS mountain of Veldspar :). For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:22:00 - [120] Quote: It's dying so fast that there are Hulks everywhere AFK mining away. In fact they are technically dead. They are robo-zombies of scriptdoom. Quote: Mining can never be 'dying' because the less people doing it the more profitable it is. Bots make so that mining gets done even if it's vastly unprofitable for legit players. The recent ban hammer was good but we all know ISK farmers will be back soon. Quote: Also trit isn't even 4.1 where I'm at close to Rens, it's 3.90 ish. The plan was to mine and manufacture but after I started I realized how hard it was to get my own BPO's researched. Granted I can pay for my accounts with ISK, but I do wonder if it's really worth it. And Rens is where stuff is paid well. Forget about mining, it's a farce and they should never have made Hulks to illude people that a mining end game existed. Now bots fly hulks and even more fly ice mining ships so the real players are to compete with relentless scripts. The fact you are bound to pay for multiple accounts just makes the bad deal more evident. Be industrial / missioneer / ratter and enjoy earning more and with just 1 account (2 tops). Even as T1 industrialist you will actually earn more by buying the minerals than spending your time digging and then building afterwards. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz



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