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Kail Storm
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Posted - 2009.06.30 21:42:00 -
[1]
Ok ive gotten tons of flak lately about my ideas but I believe this one to be viable and realistic in its practice. My Idea is 3 parts from listenting and reading ive come up with this you tell me if im on to something or if not, But please if you disagree with 1 idea dont trash the whole Post. If its to long dont read it.
First mines
I would love to see a weapon that is a "space mine" Ive heard many times that eve really playes like a submarine game so I thought of dropping mines in a designated spot, Something like bubbles but a minefield would have small sphere like bombs that went off when in its proximity.
It would do many things...Make areas more defendable even though some argue they already are.
i would want stun mines or emp mines whice would break the enemys lock on you or warp jam/Web them temporarily for a few seconds due to the disturbance in there ships sytems.
This would give smart miners/ratters/Carebears a chance to lay them on the "Standard warp in zone" for a asteroid belt or a icefield so they get a little warning before they get jumped and even buy them the time to escape.
But it would be balanced by the fact that the "wolf" pvpers could also lay the same trap so if a rabbiting carebear would get a "Warp restart" when he hit the anti warp mine and have to warm up his warp engines all over again, so i think it could be balanced.
Also you could defend a POS you were taking down by dropping them in an area so you could escape, or just make a minefield if you had the isk around your POS. Tell me what you think next post is seperate.
Second Idea is an evasive button.
I find in eve that the only real thing inertia does is effect alignment speed, but since you can fire at 360 dgr targets you dont have to swing around fast so I think we should take advantage of that differance in size between BS and Frig even more, In real space duals if a missles or blaster was fired would you not make eratic/evasive actions?
To counter missles and guns at range , Id like some Evasive Buttons for your ship.
One to orbit using evasive manuvers etc I`d call it the long Evasive button which means it would be active the hole time it was turned on and it could cycle just like modules do then firing when your ship was in the right position would give bonuses to tracking etc. But it would be less effective than a "Short timed" Evasive
The other would be short evasives which would be a button you "stage" to put it in the ready mode and when you see your enemy getting in position or a missle approaching hit it again at the right time to pull a hard evasive to avoid explosion/Full pattern of the blaster/autocannon/laser.
These would take either slots to add like an evasive booster, somewhat like a shield booster [30%]
This would add skill and timing and add a whole new layer of mods to add to make your evasive more potent and it would fully utilize the evasive skil etc. In this game now as it sits there is virtually no Evasive what so ever. It would be somewhat more real and it would utilize ships agility ratings way more not just the speed in which it takes to align and warp out.
It would also really give agile fast ships the advantage, a true speed tank would be great but risky and alot of peeps ive met on eve would excel in it. Tell me what you think, please be constuctive or polite.
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Breanta Nryrun
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Posted - 2009.06.30 21:58:00 -
[2]
First - mines. They took em out
Second - Evasive? called keep at distance or out-maneuver their tracking
Third? Where is third unless you talking about speed tanks. They nerfed that too.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.30 22:33:00 -
[3]
We had mines ages ago. Ppl liked to use it as a weapon (obvious) by causing lots of laag instead of their dmg (not so obvious).
Your idea could be tweaked to work if the number of mines in space can be limited somehow, e.g. by using anchorage mechanics for them.
/technobabblewarning
The evasive mode for the ship you have suggested will not work simply because of the way how ships and their movement and the guns are implemented.
Ships are just points in space, with a current movement vector and a thrust vector. Each tick the current movement is corrected to point a little more into the thrust vector, using mass, agility, thrust and such stuff. There is no bow/stern. The client just fools you and shows the ship model to point into the current movement direction - at least it tries, that's why you often warp sidewards in a carrier. Since there is no bow/stern, there is no rotation too.
Guns use for chance to hit calculation the movement of both ships relative to eachother (and other stuff) to calculate angular velocity. Thus, the angular velocity is for both ships allways equal. If you now try to evade, then you penalize your own chance to hit too. If you try to optimize your chance to hit, you optimize the chance to hit of your target too. That's because there is no ship rotation involved.
But maybe you had something else in mind with the evasive automatic, please tell us.
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Kail Storm
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Posted - 2009.06.30 23:14:00 -
[4]
I didnt know we were all just points, but still im talking more about this...If you shoot a missle and as the missle is coming in turn that point in another sirection and increase speed wouldnt you out run it? So with the evasive you said how do players now manually evede attacks like the first poster?
Also the whole trading your shot for there shots accuracy is my point. If timed right you would be able to move out of position to add defense, and if you time when your guns go off this can be lethal. There has to be a way where we can make smaler lighter ships do radical manuvers like you would in real life, also why dont the make bow stearn?
Ok to my next point missles and the way they work.
IMO The way missles do damage is broken right out of the box so how can we expect them to be accurate damage wise when they dont have the right concepts. Now everytime I get accused of being a Caldari Whiner and wanting to change it in our favor but this isnt true, I want it not to be backwards in the way we miss and hit.
I want the reason for our Citidel torps not to kill frigs in 1 shot not to be because the explosive velocity of 3 m/s to be slower than a light jog LOL.
I think they need to overhaul the hole way missles work period. They need to be area of effect with a explosive velocity falloff point and a dissipation rate.
For example If im flying in my frig and the a torps hits me at the edge of the explosive radius the explosion has lost some "steam" and has lost the tight area of affect and has become less dense of an explosion which does less damage.
The way it works now is if a ship has a 100 signiture radius and Torp has 400 m explosive radius the ship takes 1/4 the damage which is why a 50 m radius missle like the standard light does more damage. It should be the opposite if you were in the middle of a 400m explosion in a 100m ship it should kill it instantly since at one point that explosion was the size of the 100m ship as it grew out it lost some of its damage when it dissapated. So IMO it should have done 4 times the damage not a 1/4th. This would make missles unstoppable you say,wrong.
All you have to do to make Torps and bigger missles worse is make there tracking sytems harder to move the mass of there missle to compensate for the tracking of the smaller targets.
For example do to the fact that there is 4 times more mass than the standard light it takes 4 times as long to adjust to the proper targeting area. So in effect you get a lag behind faster targets. So this would mean the 1/4 mass of the standard mislle woud put the stongest smallest area of explosion right on the frig, and the torp would be 4 times off the center of explosion so it would lose all those joules of energy in a dissipated explosion.
Tell me guys :)
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Riessa Mc'Neil
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Posted - 2009.06.30 23:31:00 -
[5]
There is no easy real world way to code torpedo dmg in the game but they have done a darn good job at it.. Take a look at the player guide regarding how dmg is calculated and you will see that they have taken into account target velocity and size into account with regards to missile dmg.
Also the speed nerf was to help combat ships that were faster than the missles being shot at them wich is exactly what the "evasive manuvers" idea you are suggesting would put back in.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.30 23:40:00 -
[6]
1) As has been said, there used to be Mines. Evidently they caused a lot of lag, same as all the extra Drones we used to be able to deploy. Since the hardware and software updates, I wonder how much lag they'd cause these days.
However, giving people Mines will only allow them to screw themselves over more often. You make mention of deploying them at the warp-in for asteroid belts. First off, that is just as likely to hit another miner as it is to hit a Can Flipper. And either way, it would count as an attack. Meaning in High Sec you'd instantly get Concord'd, and if not you'd still be inviting aggro against them. So someone would crash into your Mine with a noobship, then come back with a PvP BS and introduce you to your Med Clone.
2) Evasive Maneuvers is what you're looking for. The problem is how everyone interprets whats going on, on screen.
We as the players, are kinda like the Captain on the bridge. The character, floating in a gooey pod inside the ship, is like the Gunner, Helmsman, Engineer, and everything else. So we use the keyboard and mouse to issue basic commands like "Go there" and "Open fire" (or "Engage" and "Make it so" if you prefer). Then the little guy/girl in the pod uses their extensive training (lots and lots of SP) to execute those commands.
YOU, behind the keyboard, are not expected to know how nanobot armor reppers function. Nor are you expected to be able to lead a target orbiting at 100km in order to hit them with a bullet the size of a large sedan.
So Evasive Maneuvers V, coupled with various agility mods, is how YOU can influence how the pilot is better able to evade in combat. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.06.30 23:43:00 -
[7]
again i have to post this link
Cloaked, Self Replicating Mine Field
All i can say is if this is put back in, i am mining a wormhole and putting a tower called deep space 9 on the other side. 
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente
The NightClub
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Posted - 2009.06.30 23:48:00 -
[8]
Umm... DS9 was on the same side as the mines...
So either find a wormhole near a moon, or mine the other side so people jump through and instapop |
Kail Storm
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Posted - 2009.07.01 02:25:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Riessa Mc'Neil
There is no easy real world way to code torpedo dmg in the game but they have done a darn good job at it.. Take a look at the player guide regarding how dmg is calculated and you will see that they have taken into account target velocity and size into account with regards to missile dmg.
Also the speed nerf was to help combat ships that were faster than the missles being shot at them wich is exactly what the "evasive manuvers" idea you are suggesting would put back in.
Sorry but i dont agree that it is a good system, a citidel torpedos explosion is less than jogging speed. Nope dont buy it.
And guys I dont want passive evasives. To me evasive isnt orbiting at a fast speed, it is making the leading of the projectile/laser eratic thereby nullifying the shot. My point is if we have such a highly trained guy in the pod if you said ok fly erratically and random to throw missles/projectiles/lasers off he would know how.
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Tavren Darknigh
Primary Inc.
Allegiance 2 None
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Posted - 2009.07.01 04:25:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tavren Darknigh on 01/07/2009 04:26:26
Originally by: Kail Storm
a citidel torpedos explosion is less than jogging speed
Please teach me how to jog at 29m/s. I could jog from san francisco to new york in 1 day 19 hours :)
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.01 04:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Originally by: Riessa Mc'Neil
There is no easy real world way to code torpedo dmg in the game but they have done a darn good job at it.. Take a look at the player guide regarding how dmg is calculated and you will see that they have taken into account target velocity and size into account with regards to missile dmg.
Also the speed nerf was to help combat ships that were faster than the missles being shot at them wich is exactly what the "evasive manuvers" idea you are suggesting would put back in.
Sorry but i dont agree that it is a good system, a citidel torpedos explosion is less than jogging speed. Nope dont buy it.
And guys I dont want passive evasives. To me evasive isnt orbiting at a fast speed, it is making the leading of the projectile/laser eratic thereby nullifying the shot. My point is if we have such a highly trained guy in the pod if you said ok fly erratically and random to throw missles/projectiles/lasers off he would know how.
Welcome to Eve online. It's not realistic. People would abuse this 'evasive' bull**** to no end.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tavren Darknigh
Edited by: Tavren Darknigh on 01/07/2009 04:26:26
Originally by: Kail Storm
a citidel torpedos explosion is less than jogging speed
Please teach me how to jog at 29m/s. I could jog from san francisco to new york in 1 day 19 hours :)
pretty sure he was talking in siege pre-buff
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.07.01 14:36:00 -
[13]
As to the missle question, why wouldn't the following work.
Percentage target's signiture of missle scan resolution equals percent of the missles max damage may be applied to target. The justification is that a missle designed to hit signitures of, say 200m, will explode significantly off target at best.
Then, missle speed - target speed equals x (amount target is gaining on the target per second)
X times flight time to target equals Y ( total distance target gained on the missle)
The percentage Y is of the missle's explosion radius is what the max possible damage is reduced by. The justification is that fast targets can outrun a really slow missle, but if the blast is big enough they will get caught in it. No need for explosion velocity, assume the blast of future space missles is sufficiently fast.
So a low sig fast target can outrun a huge missle, but if the pilot screws up and sits still a huge missle will vaporize him.
Add skills modifying all relevant factors. Add missle types strong in various factors (pinpoint scan resolution, high speed, huge explosion radius)
This seems to account for actual relevant factors and allow for good damage to the weapon's intended target, while giving diminishing returns for firing at smaller than intended targets. Unless you fire a huge missile point blank at an immobile target. (hello stealth bombers)
any holes in this concept?
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.07.01 14:53:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ausser on 01/07/2009 14:52:59
However, it ends up in juggling with formulas and numbers.
Like this one for guns.
The one for missiles looks different. There are more threads on the same topic, but i dont have the links ready atm.
As you can see, math + roleplaying can be used to efficiently implement a lot of stuff.
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McEivalley
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 16:10:00 -
[15]
Please CCP, I want an "I win" button. It's too hard for me to double click in space or choose another ship to orbit, or keep at range, or just approach. So can I have one?
Insert clever remark where? |
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