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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.11 20:17:00 -
[211]
Updated topic to better reflect issue with combat probes + onboard scanner. Also added a TL;DR.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.12 01:35:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Olleybear
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
it IS PLAYER vs PLAYER. No one ever said it was fair. Welcome to EvE/Life.
If you understand that it's not fair, why ask for an unfair advantage ? Oh let me guess, because you can't win a fight if it was against someone who is set up for pvp ?
Those gankers and wannabe-"pirates" are born losers tbh, they'd never fight a regular pvp ship, they simply suck at pvp and have to gank missionrunners and haulers to have a lift. They gank a raven that has tons of NPCs against it and think "wow i killed someone, i must rock at pvp, i'm so uber". In rl that are the losers in school, who are spanked by their 7th grader class mates and then go and beat some 5th graders up to feel strong again. Or the husband who has been bullied at work, and then comes home and takes it out on his wife. Those people don't deserve a "boost", not even in a game.
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.07.12 01:38:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Terranid Meester on 12/07/2009 01:43:34
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
More carebear QQ. Didn't read. Stay in high sec etc.
Originally by: Exlegion CCP, could you confirm that you know the situation with the directional scanner and combat probes? Are they working as intended?
CCP at your call? Why we are in the prescence of an EveGod. King of Carebears! I bet they give you free trips to Iceland (unless you already live there).
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:35:00 -
[214]
if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:43:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba If you understand that it's not fair, why ask for an unfair advantage ? Oh let me guess, because you can't win a fight if it was against someone who is set up for pvp ?
Those gankers and wannabe-"pirates" are born losers tbh, they'd never fight a regular pvp ship, they simply suck at pvp and have to gank missionrunners and haulers to have a lift. They gank a raven that has tons of NPCs against it and think "wow i killed someone, i must rock at pvp, i'm so uber". In rl that are the losers in school, who are spanked by their 7th grader class mates and then go and beat some 5th graders up to feel strong again. Or the husband who has been bullied at work, and then comes home and takes it out on his wife. Those people don't deserve a "boost", not even in a game.
This is a common misconception by carebears and quite frankly wrong. I have over 7,000 lifetime kills and many times I have fought pvp ships. I have blobbed people yes, I have been blobbed, I have lost 1v1s and won 1v1s.
The reason that I sometimes kill mission runners is because I know that it ****es them off. Yes I know it is an easy kill, I am not doing it for the challenge. I am doing it for the fact that people like you come on the forums and cry so hard.
The tools have been in place for 6 years now to avoid this situation. If you do not like getting ganked in a mission, do not run missions in lowsec; or better yet actually become part of the eve world and join a corp than can help you trap and kill the players that are probing you down.
Of course you could continue to whine mindlessly on the forums in hope of CCP intervention (which you will not get).
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:51:00 -
[216]
When the day comes that local is removed, and it's the pirates having to spam the buttons, then this will be fixed.
20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:52:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer When the day comes that local is removed, and it's the pirates having to spam the buttons, then this will be fixed.
20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
hey tell me how to get to the fantasy land you are living in
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Bel Amar
Amarr Children of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.07.12 04:26:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer 20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
They very well might, but 16AU at the speed of light does not provide feedback in a useful timeframe :)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 04:47:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 04:53:50
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec. I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 05:17:00 -
[220]
Originally by: SK Rooster The tools have been in place for 6 years now to avoid this situation. If you do not like getting ganked in a mission, do not run missions in lowsec; or better yet actually become part of the eve world and join a corp than can help you trap and kill the players that are probing you down.
Again, and with all due respect I will suggest you re-read the OP so you can better understand what loophole is being discussed here. Or read this post.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.07.12 05:42:00 -
[221]
If a feature like scanning for probes isnt effective, or usefull, then it isnt a feature, its a gimick.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.07.12 06:14:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Hiroshima Jita on 12/07/2009 06:16:02 Mission in an out of the way system and dock/safe up when other people come in? Its what other people doing the pve shtick do.
- bounce safes anyway
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 06:57:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 05:02:21
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec and I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation? You donÆt find that players ôprobingö players without actually using probes is even a little questionable? As it stands right now combat probes have a primary function of just spitting out a bookmark for you to warp to. Probing can be done almost exclusively through the onboard scanner. You donÆt find this a bit broken?
The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
I am not sure how much clearer I can make this.
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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.12 07:28:00 -
[224]
I feel stupider after reading some of the inane responses in this thread. Ganking missionrunners isn't "PvP". The mechanics are horrible no matter what direction you look at them from.
The current system is not an interesting or challenging interplay, and it needs to be fixed. In the meantime, breaking lowsec missioning by making it unviable, as has been pointed out, even reduces the ganking opportunities, so even those of you confused about what "PvP" is about should be for fixing it.
Reminder: it's a game. It's here for fun. If you're getting excited at the thought of another player being upset then it's time to quit.
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Celeritas 5k
Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.12 07:41:00 -
[225]
I play both sides of the field (Hunting and being hunted) and I have to say I don't think it's probes that are broken, it's the directional scanner.
You need to be able to have a filter just for probes. Having to search through the thousands of POS modules that happen to be close by every few seconds is gamebreakingly meticulous, obnoxious, and requires no intelligence or skill. It sucks.
Add filters for probes and an auto cycle to the scanner and the system will be fine. Better yet, set up the scanner to update in real time, like the overview. That would probably save thousands of left mouse buttons all over the world... - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied. |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.12 08:13:00 -
[226]
Originally by: SK Rooster
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 05:02:21
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec and I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation? You donÆt find that players ôprobingö players without actually using probes is even a little questionable? As it stands right now combat probes have a primary function of just spitting out a bookmark for you to warp to. Probing can be done almost exclusively through the onboard scanner. You donÆt find this a bit broken?
The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
I am not sure how much clearer I can make this.
I don't agree with this. There should be a fair chance for a skilled player to do lowsec activities, mission running, exploration, without getting blown up. A fair chance.
As a side note, I have to say, respect to those people who master this probing technique. You can't really tell which way your view is pointing, when you switch to system map, so figuring out where to place the probes is very difficult. I tried it and it is hard to do.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn
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Posted - 2009.07.12 08:25:00 -
[227]
Originally by: SK Rooster The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
So, by your own admission, the risk was increased, but the rewards stayed the same. And people that ask for it to be brought back into balance (assuming it was balanced before) aren't reasonable but whiners? Sorry, does not compute.
The increased rewards in lowsec over highsec offset around 1 ship loss (Premium insured, no fancy rigs, t2 fittings) every 25-30 completed missions. But you can rarely run 3 consecutive missions before scanprobers flock around you like flies on a pile of crap.
There is a balance here that makes it worthwile for both parties, we simply need to find it.
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Adreenalina Villak
Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.12 09:38:00 -
[228]
Let me jump in here for a bit.
As pointed out the probes are used to scan out mission areas for other players.
Now this is a major problem to the game mechanics.
Missions used to be run at moons and asteroid belts, but it did only take a short while before a lot of players and their uncle found out where the preferred spawnpoints were located. And so they just positioned themselves there, I can remember a lot of missions I failed at for that reason, the NPC rats were gone already when I arrived.
The result was a mission failure. CCP created the 'deadspace' areas in one attempt to correct this situation.
In short mission areas were semi instanced to make mission running possible in this game. Thats the reason you were unable to warp there.
These probes have become extremely easy to use with just a minimum or effort now, and this have been brought back have moved things back to the original situation of 2003.
It certainly cannot be the intention of CCP to have that mess brought back into the game!
So I agree with the OP of this thread and ask CCP to have a serious look at this matter an make corrections the earliest opportunity!
And I still don't have the right portrait showing after many many months. :'( |
Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.07.12 09:46:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Celeritas 5k You need to be able to have a filter just for probes. Having to search through the thousands of POS modules that happen to be close by every few seconds is gamebreakingly meticulous, obnoxious, and requires no intelligence or skill. It sucks.
Oh God, POS modules. Because apparently you can tell your probes "Hey, I know about xxxPIMP PALACExxx (Large Caldari Control Tower) and the dozen silos it has fitted, so just ignore them in future" but not your actual ship scanner.
The issue for me isn't whether the directional scanner is underpowered or overpowered. It's that it's boring and tedious to use. I'm not too worried about the balance, just make it a bit less agonising to use. The only real skill now is timing the fream-rate slowdowns that happen when you click Scan.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.12 16:55:00 -
[230]
Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 17:07:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended.
Santiago,
Even though what you say is correct, pre-Apocrypha there was a need to use probes. A prober needed to actually warp to different locations and drop probes. This allowed the prey enough time to detect them, assuming the prey was paying attention. Now there is absolutely no need to drop probes. So yes, before you could still "probe" someone with the D-scanner, but probes still had a significant role to play. Now you only need 5 seconds to drop a probe and get a result. This is broken, IMO.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.12 18:47:00 -
[232]
Its a delicate situation, anyway Tl/dr after page 2, so bear with me....this thread is not about the scanning mechanic anymore is it? Its about lowsec dangers again. And as far as I have read, probing down mission runners and similar got rather easy, while the protection against getting into a PvP-Situation [where a mission runner is at a disadvantage] is rather slim.
Compared to the effort the mission runner has to make in order to earn some money, the effort needed for the "predator" to ruin his ability in money earning seems rather low. [once probed out the mission is nearly unfinishable because its compromised and perhaps camped]
That is the whole reason why low sec is underpopulated because moneymaking is far more difficult than destroying ones efforts. [ok let be real, Highsec is exactely the opposite] AND thats in a system where making money in itself is not difficult at all.
The solution is:
1. Boosting rewards/ability to make money [for example: ability to default on more missions 'for free' or something like that]. 2. OR making it more difficult [or reasonable how you prefer it] to disrupt money making Operations...be it through longer scan times for ship probing, a warning system [although I think the latter is silly if the first would be done]
3. OR leaving it as it is, but I am not sure if you are all happy with how populated lowsec is....*shrug*
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen Quarantine Zone
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Posted - 2009.07.12 19:41:00 -
[233]
First, all level 4 missions in high sec should be removed
Second, all level 4 missions in low sec should be boosted to account for "1 Raven lost to pirates every 5 hours". Lets say that, after insurance, the carebear loses 100 million. And lets say he loses his ship once every 5 hours of continuous mission running. So boost mission rewards to give extra 100 mil per 5 hours.
If anyone still complains about risk vs rewards, we know they are simply too stupid to play
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.12 19:48:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Ephemeron First, all level 4 missions in high sec should be removed
Second, all level 4 missions in low sec should be boosted to account for "1 Raven lost to pirates every 5 hours". Lets say that, after insurance, the carebear loses 100 million. And lets say he loses his ship once every 5 hours of continuous mission running. So boost mission rewards to give extra 100 mil per 5 hours.
If anyone still complains about risk vs rewards, we know they are simply too stupid to play
Do the maths, one pirate needs a few minutes to nullify the gain from each mission as you cant really complete it while its camped. If you are not able to remove him that is.
Removing L4 from Highsec....thats a popular idea, but similarly useless. L3s will be farmed then, and lowsec L4s will still be suffering from the described problem above. ofc. 20m additional reward per mission would be nice, IF you can complete it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:11:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 17:18:28
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended.
Santiago,
Even though what you say is correct, pre-Apocrypha there was a need to use probes. A prober needed to actually warp to different locations and drop probes. This allowed the prey enough time to detect them, assuming the prey was paying attention. Now there is absolutely no need to drop probes. So yes, before you could still "probe" someone with the D-scanner, but probes still had a significant role to play. Now you only need 5 seconds to drop a probe and almost instantly get a bookmark. In a sense, the directional scanner has always been broken (overpowered). But the severity of their broken mechanics has only been magnified until recently with the new changes.
Nah, in the old days you could still use the directional scanner first to get close to your target and then drop the shortest range probe (snoop or spook, don't remember). You also only needed one probe, not the 4 probe layout needed these days, which takes some time to put together. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Dagobert Dog
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:29:00 -
[236]
I do have to aggree to the op.
This is not about risk in lowsec, this is about a currently broken game mechanic.
Its is ok that you can scan people out in space. In fact it is very important that this is posible and it is important that you are able to scan for ships fast. Well, whats the problem than? If you give the hunter the tools to hunt his prey, you have to give the prey some effective tools for self defence. Currently the visibility of probes is under 10 seconds, if the prober is doing his job right. This means the prey has to spam the scan button every few seconds if it wants to detect probes reliable. This is by no means a good game mechanic. In lowsec you still have local as an intel tool, but it still renders mission running/exploration in non empty/blue systems unviable, since you can never tell if there is not an enemy on the front door to your mission. In wormhole space its even worse. If the hunter works right the prey doesnt even know that the hunter is present in system until it is too late. Currently it is still possible to work in w-space since its not very populated. But since more and more people find out how to scan people out without being visible on the preys scanner it gets less viable to do anything in w-space.
Dont get me wrong. I have been on both sides, the hunters and the preys. And since im doing my stuff as hunter well, i know that there is a lack of tools for self defence for the prey.
Dag
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:57:00 -
[237]
It's been a while since I actually lol'ed at a thread title. Thanks..?
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Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
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Posted - 2009.07.12 21:01:00 -
[238]
You have to adapt... by running missions in high sec. It's the only logical solution to your problem.
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Dagobert Dog
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Posted - 2009.07.12 21:16:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Mire Stoude You have to adapt... by running missions in high sec. It's the only logical solution to your problem.
This might be a solution for mission runners (they already do it since years), but what about for example gas harvesting in wormhole space? You are a sitting duck. You have to sit close to the cloud and can not stay alliend and you are supposed to hit scan every 5 secs as long as you harvest, which can last several hours. I shot quite a few people harvesting gas in w-space and they never had the slightest chance. Sorry, but i think the current combat scan mechanic could break the whole w-space content.
Dag
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.13 22:19:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Nah, in the old days you could still use the directional scanner first to get close to your target and then drop the shortest range probe (snoop or spook, don't remember). You also only needed one probe, not the 4 probe layout needed these days, which takes some time to put together.
And it also took more than 5 seconds for a probe to yield results. That is my point. There could be 100 combat probes out there but if my window to detect them is only 5 seconds out of my entire mission time it doesn't matter. Probing players down is too easy. I know lots of pirates rejoice and applaud the fact that our best tool for detecting predators has now become a button-spamming chore but in the long run it will hurt everyone's bottom line.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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