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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
21
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Posted - 2011.09.16 21:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Mendolus wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...
Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?
Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce? Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.
Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse.
Dont expect much in the way of legitimate argument and reason from them.
As for the Devs claim, I don't believe it unless he proves it at this point. Time cards or other documentation proving his statement are needed. I do not trust anyone at CCP at this stage or what they say. Im looking at their actions now, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
21
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Posted - 2011.09.16 22:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Mendolus wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:
This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...
Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?
Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce? Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made. Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse. Dont expect much in the way of legitimate argument and reason from them. As for the Devs claim, I don't believe it unless he proves it at this point. Time cards or other documentation proving his statement are needed. I do not trust anyone at CCP at this stage or what they say. Im looking at their actions now, and the proof is in the pudding as they say. You want to see time cards? Really? I'm sorry my friend, but thats just a wee bit over the top.
NO its not if the person in question is going to make such claims relating to work force allocation. He cant toss it out there without any way for us to verify or back it up.
It was very irresponsible of him to say that in the first place.
You cant just say things you cant back up and prove. Or can prove but wont then tell people to just trust you. Its borderline abuse too us players and customers in many ways.
Yeah that ship sailed.
Very unprofessional. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
21
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Posted - 2011.09.16 22:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mai Kusoni wrote:RougeOperator wrote:
NO its not if the person in question is going to make such claims relating to work force allocation. He cant toss it out there without any way for us to verify or back it up.
It was very irresponsible of him to say that in the first place.
You cant just say things you cant back up and prove. Or can prove but wont then tell people to just trust you. Its borderline abuse too us players and customers in many ways.
Yeah that ship sailed.
Very unprofessional.
Wow you are taking all of this way too seriously. Take a deep breath and reread what you posted. I think you need to step away from the keyboard and get out more. Oh and you spelled Rogue wrong. Just sayin'
No im pretty sure I got red in french right. The mistake was forgetting to make a space between the two words. C'est la vie.
Moving along.
No im taking it as serious as it needs to be. Its a dirty things to make a bold statement as the CCP dev makes that can be proved only to turn around and inevitably say you wont prove it.
He is trying to silence discontent in a dirty low down way.
He can say anything he wants and not have to prove it if we let such things slide. Its not acceptable.
Sorry but you have to earn my trust and faith. Im not going to just go along with such a statement with glazed brainwashed eyes. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
21
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Posted - 2011.09.16 22:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:RougeOperator wrote:
No im pretty sure I got red in french right. The mistake was forgetting to make a space between the two words. C'est la vie.
Moving along.
No im taking it as serious as it needs to be. Its a dirty things to make a bold statement as the CCP dev makes that can be proved only to turn around and inevitably say you wont prove it.
He is trying to silence discontent in a dirty low down way.
He can say anything he wants and not have to prove it if we let such things slide. Its not acceptable.
Sorry but you have to earn my trust and faith. Im not going to just go along with such a statement with glazed brainwashed eyes.
Pst, it's a video game, a game.
Its a business, with paying customers. With a game as the product.
What is your point exactly?
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
21
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Posted - 2011.09.16 22:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:RougeOperator wrote:
What is your point exactly?
This is a video game, not the Lament of the Proletariat.
Thanks for pointing out to everyone reading the forums that you are extremely ignorant.
Its not just a game. Its also a payed for service. One the involves an investment of time and money.
This is not some scrabble game you toss in the closet and pull out only once a year for a family gathering.
Its not some 20 hour game you got for xbox that once its over its over.
Its an MMO which is a totally different thing then just a game. For many many reasons.
And customer/player/user feedback matters. As each person has formed relationships in game and out that can and will effect sales and retention of past and future customers. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
22
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Posted - 2011.09.16 23:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:
They are not obligated to consider your feelings when they make a product,
You need to stop posting. Just with this line alone.
Also you are the one coming off as a ranting mad man on a soapbox at this point.
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
22
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Posted - 2011.09.16 23:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Mendolus wrote:
They are not obligated to consider your feelings when they make a product,
You need to stop posting. Just with this line alone. Also you are the one coming off as a ranting mad man on a soapbox at this point. Rouge, it is alright to back off the tone of your rhetoric, I am not going to use it against you if you do or chest beat, I will simply better enjoy having a more rational discussion with you over the topic at hand. But phrases like silencing discontent and brainwashing are really not very constructive on a video game forum. And I am sorry, but CCP is a company, not a nursery, they are here to make a profit first, not improve the quality of your life experiences or help you achieve inner peace. Do they and most of their employees care whether you are having fun or not? Of course they do. But at the end of the day, they have mouths to feed, whether their own, or others, and I'm sorry, but if I had to choose between your feelings and my dinner, I would choose the latter every time.
They are very constructive if they are describing the actions I am talking about. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
22
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Posted - 2011.09.17 11:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Fawcks wrote:Someone summarize this thread for me in a small paragraph or less? I'm just lazy and I don't feel like going through all 4 pages to get to the meat of the discussion. Some people think that all of the profits from Eve should go into developing Eve. Some people think that all of th profits from Eve should go into developing other games. Draw a line between between those two viewpoints. Most people sit somewhere along that line, and are arguing that their's is the best spot.
More like
Some people think the profits from EvE should only be spent after they reinvest in the core product that is EvE. The basic Idea is that there is a minimum overhead of resources that should be given to EvE from our subscriptions that must be met before they reallocate resources to other games and new venture products.
What CCP did was put way less then the minimum required in terms of resources needed into the core product for YEARS at this point. In an attempt to front load new projects at the expense of the core existing product. Which seems to have lead to a corporate culture of viewing the customers not as customers but as little more then slaves on the plantation that should be happy to work for their masters. I'm looking at you Hilmar.
The insult on top of it all is when we finally get the big expansion they put so much on hold for years and when we get incarna its buggy as all get out, melts computers, and takes away from the gameplay experience in many ways. While adding nothing new to the core mechanics and content. Not to mention the insult that was the NEX store and its pricing. Im not sure if the NEX is madness or stupidity at this point honestly. The best thing was the new turret animations, but then botched that with turd icons. CCP created a textbook example for other companies on, "how not to introduce a cash shop". I hope other developers take note.
No one is saying they should not use our money to develop new games or projects. But before they do that they need to meet the minimum investment back into the game we pay for. Something that they have so far failed at to be honest. That is what the people angrey at CCP are saying.
The other Pro CCP side is only interested in putting words into dissenters mouths and creating straw men and acting like Saul Alinksy's. Rather then have a legitimate discourse on the matter. Though there are a few that are not just blowing smoke they and have valid points they get drowned out in a sea of CCP sycophants and brown shirt thugs. Whose basic argument seems to be that they can do whatever they want and you should just shut up and take it. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
28
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Posted - 2011.09.17 14:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:You have all the variables then? Lets see them.
You will never get them cause CCP would then show that they have indeed miss allocated resources.
Heck seems they are trying to bury info especially with the cancellation of the annual reports to a yearly report. Shortly after the Incarna boondoggle.
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
28
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Posted - 2011.09.17 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:RougeOperator wrote:AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:You have all the variables then? Lets see them. You will never get them cause CCP would then show that they have indeed miss allocated resources. Heck seems they are trying to bury info especially with the cancellation of the annual reports to a yearly report. Shortly after the Incarna boondoggle. Right. Which takes the argument from "simple maths" to "complex assumptions". Which is my point.
Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it.
The assumption being made based on current evidence that we have access to has turned up with the most likely correct assumption. You can make correct and logical assumptions without simple maths.
Which will also most likely be proven true if we had access to the actual resource allocation information on projects and as to who and what is being worked on.
Its a safe assumption that they have not put the minimum necessary needed resources into the flagship product. As others have already pointed out they have expanded staff and yet none of that expansion was allocated to EvE but to the new projects alone. And they pulled staff over the years from EvE to work on other projects. Or worse yet pretend the incrana team is working on eve when its actually WoD masquerading Incarna as true EvE content. When its clear its an Alpha test for another game at our expense.
So again Incarna is being worked on by WoD staff. They are not the actual EvE staff but Staff abusing the other product as some kind of alpha test and abusing the paying customers that want to play EvE. Which is utter rubbish from most any way you look at it. They made the game we pay for worse off to test tech for another game. Most of us are not fooled by what they are doing.
There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.
Ill add that they technically actually do owe the paying EvE customers at this point. CCP has created a DEBT they owe the EvE community due to the lack of content and game play we have been paying for without much to show for it. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
28
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Posted - 2011.09.17 16:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:Quote:Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it. No no no no no no no no no no NO. Assumption is what everybody has to work with when they don't have all the variables. I have to assume also. But as I said, that changes the entire scenario. When everybody is assuming it is 100% opinion at that point. Its not a simple equation. for example; Quote:
There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.
You have no idea what resources they have at their disposal, or when or where they were allocated. You have a general idea of how many employees work there.
Too bad then that the assumptions we are making have a prepoderence of fact backing them up.
Not having the specific hard data on the time clock of employees is not needed when we have enough evidence laying about that backs up the mismanagement of resources.
Or were you not around during the protests? Where streams of information were collected. And posted on many blogs?
I have to say you are just being willfully obtuse about all this. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous
28
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Posted - 2011.09.17 20:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Taedrin wrote:I know it's popular to think that EVE is financing WoD and DUST514. But the fact of the matter is that these games are likely being financed through debt, and not through EVE subscriptions. Hence the reason why there was talk in MD about how CCP is going to deal with a loan payment due in October.
Of course people are too busy saying "woe is me" and too attached to the idea that CCP's sole purpose in life is to screw over their customers to understand how business projects are financed.
They got those loans because they had a successful product called EvE. So yes it is financed through our subs as the leverage to get the loan to begin with.
We understand how it works very well.
It All comes down to the plain and simple fact that they overextended. And while doing that created huge negligence to the very game and players that made them. |
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