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Wrecks... I'm confused.

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Viggen Caldari The Lunatic Asylum Notorious Organization of Brothers	Posted - 2009.07.07 21:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Tippia Malcanis already cleared it up. There is no grey area. Nope, he just stated what we already knew, my question is why. Originally by: Sloppy Podfarts Interesting...since it's not confusing at all. Correct, what happens is not confusing... the reasoning behind it however is. Originally by: Krystal Vernet Wreck = salvage = free for all Partly right, the salvage is free-for-all as we've already cleared up.. empty wrecks however are not, otherwise you could shoot them without consequence. Originally by: Anaesthera If someone comes in to salvage your wrecks, shoot your wrecks yourself. Griefer tears are more valuable than the crap loot you're going to find anyway Thanks for the advice, but people salvaging my wrecks arnt the problem. As I've said, this is not the issue I have here. Originally by: Tippia Oh, and to answer the actual question: because mission runners wanted it that way and because salvage isn't an additional mission income, but something extra that you need to work for if you want it. Originally by: Irida Mershkov Not this **** again. If mission runners wanted it that way, then why like Irida says, does this subject keep coming up from mission runners?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.07 21:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Viggen If mission runners wanted it that way, then why like Irida says, does this subject keep coming up from mission runners? Because they refuse to accept the answers. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.07 21:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Viggen If mission runners wanted it that way, then why like Irida says, does this subject keep coming up from mission runners? Because they refuse to accept the answers. Pretty much this mate, the reason it's such a *****ed topic (not blaming you personally for this of course) is that the mission runners/idiots (they come into the same category for this) refuse to accept the answers given to them by other players, and CCP*.
Velvet Sinner	Posted - 2009.07.08 02:09:00 - [34] Originally by: Anaesthera If someone comes in to salvage your wrecks, shoot your wrecks yourself. Griefer tears are more valuable than the crap loot you're going to find anyway For the life of me I can't understand why some people get a woody over someone else salvaging (NOT looting) a kill of theirs. If you can't get to it or don't want it, who gives a crap? Get over it already...
Anaesthera Gallente Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.08 03:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Velvet Sinner For the life of me I can't understand why some people get a woody over someone else salvaging (NOT looting) a kill of theirs. If you can't get to it or don't want it, who gives a crap? Get over it already... The point is that you wanted to salvage/loot your own wrecks. If someone comes in and starts stealing your salvage, shoot the wrecks. That way you both lose, rather than just you losing.
Spurty Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2009.07.08 04:23:00 - [36] try NOS'ing a wreck thats not yours. No destruction happens, well it doesn, but not to the wreck! Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here i was thinking earlier about corpses...
Fig Jam	Posted - 2009.07.08 05:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Spurty try NOS'ing a wreck thats not yours. No destruction happens, well it doesn, but not to the wreck! I wonder what would happen if you remote repped a wreck that resulted from a CONCORDOKKEN... And on a more amusing note, I was in a mixed corp gang that was camping Jita 4-4 the other day. One of our members got exploded and as the vultures closed in someone suggested shooting the wreck. Another gentleman in a Vagabond complied with this request and was promptly Concorded for his efforts
tikiana	Posted - 2009.07.08 05:42:00 - [38] many many moons ago, i think you could shoot the wrecks and you would be aggressed to the owner, you could then shoot the owner. not sure if this is right though it was after all many many moons ago and i've forgotten the exact details of it.
Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.07.08 06:03:00 - [39] Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Viggen If mission runners wanted it that way, then why like Irida says, does this subject keep coming up from mission runners? Because they refuse to accept the answers. Pretty much this mate, the reason it's such a *****ed topic (not blaming you personally for this of course) is that the mission runners/idiots (they come into the same category for this) refuse to accept the answers given to them by other players, and CCP*. not trying to sound like I'm whining, cause I'm not. I dont really care if someone can salvage my wrecks.. if they do I''l just salvage faster and make it a race . I dont think the reason is solely because they can accept the answer.. its that all the answers I've seen from CCP have been "working as intended", not an explanation of WHY its intended that way which is was the question in this topic seems to be. Now it could be that I've just missed the explanation, but I check the forums fairly regularly, so I would appreciate a link to a response that explains the "why" if anyone has seen it. Absolutely everything is subjective.
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.08 06:05:00 - [40] Because the loot inside the wreck has an owner, the wreck itself does not have an owner therefore it is free to be salvaged by anyone with a salvager and a dream And did you know that this is in fact Surfin's Plunderbunny's forum alt? It's official!

Riedlim	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:44:00 - [41] What's this topic about?
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Aethrwolf not trying to sound like I'm whining, cause I'm not. I dont really care if someone can salvage my wrecks.. if they do I''l just salvage faster and make it a race . I dont think the reason is solely because they can accept the answer.. its that all the answers I've seen from CCP have been "working as intended", not an explanation of WHY its intended that way which is was the question in this topic seems to be. Now it could be that I've just missed the explanation, but I check the forums fairly regularly, so I would appreciate a link to a response that explains the "why" if anyone has seen it. Basically, CCP stated (Can't find the actual post, but I believe Prism X posted it) that the salvage isn't yours until it is actually salvaged, and it is only salvage, once is has been actually salvaged, before then, the wreck up for grabs, it isn't yours, the stuff inside it is, but the wreck itself isn't, as anyone can take from it, and hence, salvage it. Salvaging wasn't designed to boost a mission runners income, it was designed as a career(?)/profession option, particuarily I believe for rigs, but missions runners mostly assume it is, by right, theirs, which it isn't. Basically, it comes down to: They're not stealing your salvage unless they've blown you up and taken it, as it is physically impossible to take salvaged goods, as they are in your cargohold, and cannot be removed unless you are doing it self, or dead. - Jesus typing and reading that back to myself makes it a bit clunky in terms of explanation, but i'm sure you'll understand.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Aethrwolf I dont think the reason is solely because they can accept the answer.. Yes it is. Quote: its that all the answers I've seen from CCP have been "working as intended", not an explanation of WHY its intended that way They've explain that as well: salvaging is a mini-profession, not an additional mission reward. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:14:00 - [44] CONCORD don't shoot Guristas in belts either, even if they shoot at you. Quite why CCP try to maintain an illusion of immersion when it comes to CONCORD I have no idea because the immersion vanished.... well I don't know when it vanished, maybe it was never there. Now all they represent are whines and pointless threads. Hmmm... maybe that's the point.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Krystal Vernet Wreck = salvage = free for all Loot in wreck = loot = owned by someone = consequences if you mess with it in some manner Seems very clear to me. YES - The current rules/mechanics ARE clear. What the OP is having issues with is the LOGIC of loot/salvage being treated differently when they come from the same source by the same means. The logic for that is NOT clear.
Viggen Caldari The Lunatic Asylum Notorious Organization of Brothers	Posted - 2009.07.08 15:34:00 - [46] Originally by: MasterEnt YES - The current rules/mechanics ARE clear. What the OP is having issues with is the LOGIC of loot/salvage being treated differently when they come from the same source by the same means. The logic for that is NOT clear. Bingo! thats exactly the problem I have, the logic behind the rules of wrecks. I will remind others that this topic is NOT about people sneaking in and salvaging peoples mission wrecks.. we've had 100's of posts about that already, and I've explained that this is not what's causing me the confusion. So please stay on topic, and not turn this into another ninja salvage rant.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.08 15:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Viggen Bingo! thats exactly the problem I have, the logic behind the rules of wrecks. See above. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.07.08 16:32:00 - [48] Tippia.. ty for the quotes. They help illustrate my point more than yours. Mitnal doesnt explain reasoning behind the mechanic, just that the mechanic is there. Faolchu comes very close, but his explanation is actually just an RP reason for a mechanic created to explain said mechanic, not explaining the DEVS reason for it. Ytterbium again merely reiterates policy. PrismX best explanation by far, so thank you for posting it. (also the only one that I had NOT already seen) but while his explanation is pretty good, it contains one huge logical fallacy.. not buffing highsec mission running income is well and good as its one of the safest incomes around once you know what you are doing. the Fallacy lies in creating a mini profession with even less risk and higher profit MARGINS, if not actual total profit, than the mission runners. oh theres some risk in ninja salvaging but less than just about every other profession except trading. I have already stated how little it actually bothers me if someone starts salvaging my mission wrecks. CCP could change 1 thing about wrecks that would make me incredibly happy, and its not the aggro bit that everyone *****es about. Even miners have to be either armed or tanked vs the local rats unless they want to jump out of the belt they are in or bore someone else by bringing a guard along. Miners who mine in mission belts arent immune to this either, as a matter of fact, I seem to see MORE belt rats while mining mission belts than I do in normal belts. I would like to see belt rats set to occasionally spawn at wreck clusters and attack whomever is salvaging the wrecks.. bring some risk to the salvaging profession in highsec. encourage ppl to not use completely unarmed ships for salvaging, bring humor to these threads when a salvager cries about getting concorded for accidentally activating a gun instead of a salvager on a wreck. Oh, and swearing doesnt help your point any, just makes anything intelligent you may have said in a post get ignored by a lot of folks. I know these salvage threads are annoying, but they'll keep coming up. and again, before you get angry(er?) thank you for the quotes. Absolutely everything is subjective.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.08 16:42:00 - [49] Originally by: Aethrwolf the Fallacy lies in creating a mini profession with even less risk and higher profit MARGINS, if not actual total profit, than the mission runners. That's not a fallacy — just a balancing decision related to what they want the rig market to look like. More importantly, that set of quotes completely answers the questions made about why salvaging works the way it does from an aggression standpoint. (It doesn't answer why some of these mechanics are in place, though: mission runners complained that salvaging was too hard and that people kept steeling their loot — both whines turned into changes that came back to bite the whiners in their rear ends…) Quote: Oh, and swearing doesnt help your point any Maybe, but it's the only thing left to hope for when people willingly ignore commonly available and entirely clear information. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.07.08 17:23:00 - [50] Even though Prism X already have informed you, let us take it one more time: Salvage components does NOT exist inside wrecks. Salvage components comes into existence inside the cargo hold of a ship equipped with a salvager modules which have have had a successful roll after having being activated on a valid target. This also cause the target to disappear which makes any content (the loot which DO exist inside wrecks) in the target to be left behind in a cargo container. You can NOT steal salvage. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.08 17:42:00 - [51] The difference between salvage and item drops is that... they have a different legal status. As defined by CCP. In their game. Repeatedly. It might seem illogical to you. That's OK. Quite a lot of things in EvE are pretty illogical. CCP have been pretty consistent in prioritizing game balance over logic. Let's make this even simpler: Salvaging isn't flaggable because CCP dont want it to be.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:18:00 - [52] I guess the law in EvE doesn't have to make sense any more than the law in RL does.
Corduroy Rab Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:34:00 - [53] The game has changed hugely since since its inception. Mechanics have been added, removed, changed and otherwise adapted to the needs and demands of the players over time. This evolution and revision has led to the current state of things, and the inconsistencies in the current system as well. It is likely that if CCP was starting with a clean slate implementing these mechanics there would be far more consistency.
Kratos McLeod	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Robot Robot A wreck is two things, a container for loot and an exploitable resource for salvage. The loot belongs to the person who made the wreck (excepting player wrecks), the salvage belongs to whoever harvests it first. If you salvage a wreck with stuff in it, then the wreck's only purpose is as a loot container and thus it turns into a loot container. If you salvage a wreck with nothing in it, then the wreck no longer serves a purpose so it disappears. If you shoot a wreck with stuff in it, then you are destroying someone else's property and can expect the appropriate consequences... ...really, the situation is fine as it is, even if it doesn't make much sense, so why waste dev time on it in the first place? this ^^ but to be honest to really KNOW why, you would have to be one of the developers. But imho it is what it is, who really cares why.
Salliene Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:44:00 - [55] I am sure that we can all agree that the best solution to this confusion is to make remove all ownership rights from wrecks and the loot within them. Just because I blow something up doesn't mean that I am now the owner of it. We aren't barbarians here, just because I punch you in the face doesn't mean that your wallet is now my legal property! Just remove all ownership rights to loot and wrecks so that anyone who wants it can come along and claim it, that way there will be plenty for everyone and no conflict.
Kratos McLeod	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Aethrwolf Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Viggen If mission runners wanted it that way, then why like Irida says, does this subject keep coming up from mission runners? Because they refuse to accept the answers. Pretty much this mate, the reason it's such a *****ed topic (not blaming you personally for this of course) is that the mission runners/idiots (they come into the same category for this) refuse to accept the answers given to them by other players, and CCP*. ...if they do I'll just salvage faster and make it a race . ... this mate, I can NOT agree with. Eventhough salvage is free game to all, if the person who shot the wreck is in system and salvaging their wreck, all others should back off.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Kratos McLeod this mate, I can NOT agree with. Eventhough salvage is free game to all, if the person who shot the wreck is in system and salvaging their wreck, all others should back off. <sarcasm detector failure> Why? </sarcasm detector failure> ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.08 19:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Hoo Is Originally by: Denny Haze Also, if you look at a wreck's info there's an owner displayed, empty, or not. /This So where does the wrecks aren't owned come from? If someone starts to shoot at a rat but fails to kill it for whatever reason and someone comes by later and kills it. The wreck belongs to the person who shot at it first(There are exceptions, which I haven't quite figured out, perhaps something to do with the amount of damage done by the involved parties). However, if the original person has logged the wreck will often spawn with no ownership. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.07.08 20:21:00 - [59] Anyone notice that the wreaks don't actually vanish physically, just from your overview? They do eventually disappear, but not right when they get salvaged.
Velvet Sinner	Posted - 2009.07.08 20:38:00 - [60] Originally by: Kratos McLeod this mate, I can NOT agree with. Eventhough salvage is free game to all, if the person who shot the wreck is in system and salvaging their wreck, all others should back off. Well, that comes down to common courtesy. Whenever I hit a system with wrecks in it, if the person that made the mess ;) is still there I'll ask for permission to salvage. If they say no, I move on. Some people are just complete pr!cks, tho... Like those that pull up in their barge or Exhumer and start plowing away at the same rock you're mining. Perfectly legal, but doesn't change the fact that they're complete d!cks.



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