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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:44:00 -
[1]
Many people in EVE have never even seen a Mothership or a Titan... but fights involving them are very usually the epitome of what EVE is all about. Epic face to face sluggouts involving huge assets that took in many cases, entire alliances to build, involving hundreds of players, and years of EVE subscriptions/personal time to buy and train for.
How long does it take to kill a Titan or a mothership? With a solid cap fleet and a well-rounded support contingient, sometimes 10 minutes, to half an hour. Obviously an even bigger fleet can hit up enough dps to kill one of these ships in maybe 5 minutes? Less?
Obviously many times supercapitals are trapped and tackled by smaller gangs... many of these kills occur in cyno jammed systems. Very long fights usually ensue... this is what eve is all about!
I've been a part of many supercapital fights and have helped kill Nyx's, Aeons, on many occations. But I have never gotten on a single killmail, or gotten a piece of loot. It seems that it is very easy for a mothership pilot to see when they are screwed... and very hard for 50 battleships to kill it under 2 minutes.
Recently members within our corporation worked for 2 weeks to setup a complex trap for an enemy mothership. The trap was finally sprung... 2 motherships, 10 carriers + about 60 support were either cynod or Titan bridged in... the mothership pilot shrugged and self destructed... making fun of us for his ability to use this broken game mechanic.
This same scenario has happened to me... with different details... 3 times now. Why in the world do supercapitals take the SAME amount of time to explode themselves as a rookie ship? Devoiding your enemy of loot is realistic... but to deny a killmail is utter failure and a huge loophole in the system. Corporations that create a killmail for a kill they worked for fought for and DIED for get made fun of by the community... and many argue that no killmail somehow = no kill.
In most cases it is impossible to kill a supercapital within 2 minutes... thus its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not. Self destruct secuences need to be varied by the size of the ship or class of the hull. This is incredibly stupid... i dont play eve to fight somebody, lose my ship, and have him lol in local as he self destructs before my friends can kill him.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:59:00 -
[2]
Killmails are not everything. Get over it. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:06:00 -
[3]
Edited by: WhiteSavage on 18/07/2009 00:06:30
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
No matter what your personal opinion... killmails are part of EVE. To many people they are one of the most important things IN EVE. So personally being a carebear or not careing about killmails... means what to this discusion. Why do you even post.
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:43:00 -
[4]
I guess there's an argument to be made that it's a form of griefing. The definition of griefing is engaging in actions that serve no purpose other than to annoy, or ruin the game, for others. The only reason to self destruct your ship in combat is to prevent the people who have beaten you from gaining anything from the encounter. You don't gain anything from doing it, you just deny other people from gaining anything.
I'm not sure how self destructing works with regard to loot (the people I kill don't often last long enough to pull this off :P), but if it does indeed prevent any loot from dropping then for a start that's just inconsistent. Why would loot drop when a ship is destroyed by another ship, but not when it destroys itself? Even apart from that, there are plenty of people who make their living from PvP. The only way to make money this way is either to wardec people in highsec and hurt them enough that they pay up, or to ransom their ships, or to destroy them and take the loot. Successfully self destructing your ship totally negates the last 2 of those. That seems a bit unfair to me.
With regard to the killmail, why shouldn't you care about killmails? They're in the game, why not care about them? They're the only record of what you've destroyed, and like I say, for a lot of people, PvP is the whole point of the game. It's not about controlling space, or making isk, it's about fighting battles, and the fact you can say you killed a mothership is more important than being able to say you helped your alliance hold on to XY-123 for an extra 3 weeks. This is a perfectly valid approach to the game, and a very common one too.
For example, if someone in a lone cruiser was able to tackle a capital that had no hope of support arriving any time soon, and he was able to kill it by himself, albeit slowly, why shouldn't he be able to brag about it? Without the killmail there's no proof. It's a flaw of the system (admittedly for reasons of lag perhaps unavoidable) that killmails are only sent to the final blow, which in the case of a self destruct is nobody. If that can't be fixed, then there definitely needs to be something else done to prevent killmail dodging.
I'd like to suggest that it's impossible to self destruct your ship while warp scrambled, but obviously that would open the door to all kinds of griefing. to be honest I like your idea of linking the self destruct time to ship size. I reckon that's the only way to do it fairly. Say an upper limit of half an hour for a titan, with a minimum of 30 seconds for a frigate. If you can't kill something in half an hour, you probably don't deserve the kill, frankly, and I honestly can't think why anyone would want to self destruct a supercap other than to deny killmails/loot, but half an hour isn't that long a wait really, at least, not in Eve terms.
One other possibility would be to remove insurance payouts on self destructed ships. I don't know if people regularly insure their capitals, but your car insurance company wouldn't pay out if you burnt your own car out, would they?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:58:00 -
[5]
Confirming that i think big explosions should take longer since they are bigger unless of course the explosion has racing stripes which would then make them blow up faster- racing stripes make everything faster.
If your doing everything for the kill mail then congrats- youve lost- cause he denied you your precious pixel mail while losing his precious pixel ship
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Future Mutant Confirming that i think big explosions should take longer since they are bigger unless of course the explosion has racing stripes which would then make them blow up faster- racing stripes make everything faster.
If your doing everything for the kill mail then congrats- youve lost- cause he denied you your precious pixel mail while losing his precious pixel ship
Again, this arguement means what to the tpic raised? Thanks for your opinion why r u even here.
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Irn Bruce I guess there's an argument to be made that it's a form of griefing. The definition of griefing is engaging in actions that serve no purpose other than to annoy, or ruin the game, for others. The only reason to self destruct your ship in combat is to prevent the people who have beaten you from gaining anything from the encounter. You don't gain anything from doing it, you just deny other people from gaining anything.
I'm not sure how self destructing works with regard to loot (the people I kill don't often last long enough to pull this off :P), but if it does indeed prevent any loot from dropping then for a start that's just inconsistent. Why would loot drop when a ship is destroyed by another ship, but not when it destroys itself? Even apart from that, there are plenty of people who make their living from PvP. The only way to make money this way is either to wardec people in highsec and hurt them enough that they pay up, or to ransom their ships, or to destroy them and take the loot. Successfully self destructing your ship totally negates the last 2 of those. That seems a bit unfair to me.
With regard to the killmail, why shouldn't you care about killmails? They're in the game, why not care about them? They're the only record of what you've destroyed, and like I say, for a lot of people, PvP is the whole point of the game. It's not about controlling space, or making isk, it's about fighting battles, and the fact you can say you killed a mothership is more important than being able to say you helped your alliance hold on to XY-123 for an extra 3 weeks. This is a perfectly valid approach to the game, and a very common one too.
For example, if someone in a lone cruiser was able to tackle a capital that had no hope of support arriving any time soon, and he was able to kill it by himself, albeit slowly, why shouldn't he be able to brag about it? Without the killmail there's no proof. It's a flaw of the system (admittedly for reasons of lag perhaps unavoidable) that killmails are only sent to the final blow, which in the case of a self destruct is nobody. If that can't be fixed, then there definitely needs to be something else done to prevent killmail dodging.
I'd like to suggest that it's impossible to self destruct your ship while warp scrambled, but obviously that would open the door to all kinds of griefing. to be honest I like your idea of linking the self destruct time to ship size. I reckon that's the only way to do it fairly. Say an upper limit of half an hour for a titan, with a minimum of 30 seconds for a frigate. If you can't kill something in half an hour, you probably don't deserve the kill, frankly, and I honestly can't think why anyone would want to self destruct a supercap other than to deny killmails/loot, but half an hour isn't that long a wait really, at least, not in Eve terms.
One other possibility would be to remove insurance payouts on self destructed ships. I don't know if people regularly insure their capitals, but your car insurance company wouldn't pay out if you burnt your own car out, would they?
The denial of loot is important too I agree. Another thing i hate is the fact that they can be shooting at you while they self destruct. Seems to negate the purpose of abandoning ship? Either way the game mechanic is flawed and needs to be fixed.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:26:00 -
[8]
After reading your topic title the only thing i had in my mind was, that an ibis selfdestruction should have an epic sound like that:
http://www.myvideo.at/watch/5488099 (The "pod" appears at 00:56 sec)
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.07.18 07:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: WhiteSavage Edited by: WhiteSavage on 18/07/2009 00:06:30
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
No matter what your personal opinion... killmails are part of EVE. To many people they are one of the most important things IN EVE. So personally being a carebear or not careing about killmails... means what to this discusion. Why do you even post.
The only thing you lose is your personal satisfaction backed up by a killmail written in stone for all to see. I know there's an element of morale in the equation where the enemy party doesn't want a black mark on his alliance of a mothership loss and they don't want you to claim the credit for the kill. But if you keep destroying their assets like that, then the morale damage will still take its toll on your opponents. Not to mention you still deprived them of a valuable ship. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
ollobrains
Aurora Nomads
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Posted - 2009.07.18 11:26:00 -
[10]
how about this if youre tackled or under fire self destruct takes one hour ( this might force em to eject at least) and enough time to kill cap ships ( longer for cap ships sounds reasonable
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.18 11:50:00 -
[11]
killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.18 13:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Robert Caldera killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
This.
And why should it be any different in rookie shisp time to self destyrucy adn a MS? you only press a trigger :P.
So your comparisson to a rookie ships do not help your cause in my eyes.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.07.18 14:49:00 -
[13]
Bring more ships next time.
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Nico Terces
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Posted - 2009.07.18 16:13:00 -
[14]
I fail to see the issue. The guy you killed was lolling at you cuz you didnt get a killmail? I'd lol at him cuz he lost a friggin expensive ship, and you did not!
A killmail is a luxery, destroyed assets hurt.
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.07.18 19:51:00 -
[15]
You guys are too hard on the OP. I agree with the idea and I think it's a good one. If your enemy self-destructs while tackled, I think a killmail should be generated. If he escapes and self-destructs in a safespot, then no.
-/ the fighting republicans /- |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.07.18 20:11:00 -
[16]
Self destruct should turn off all modules that would fix this issue, also cyno in some dreads and seige it next time!
A self destruct should still be counted as a kill the mail going to the highest damaging agressor. The only advantage of using self destruct would be to destroy all your cargo and fittings. It would be fun to also do AOE damage based on your hull type, but this would be abused.
A far bigger problem imho is the logoffski tactic used on solo JFs and caps in general, its getting more common when they screw up solo, when they get caught they should stay caught.
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Sobon
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.18 22:08:00 -
[17]
Not on the issue of the KM, but rather the loss of the mods, selfdestruct destroys every mod on the ship depriving the killers of material gain. ---------------------------------------------------
TQ Server Status: "BLACK HAWK ____" Does this mean we can expect down time in the near future? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.18 22:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sobon Not on the issue of the KM, but rather the loss of the mods, selfdestruct destroys every mod on the ship depriving the killers of material gain.
And the victim know this, thus he does it.
Self destruct is a perfectly viable tactic.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Doctor Dodo
Caldari Dalek Tactical Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:13:00 -
[19]
If a kill mail goes out from a self destruct the pilot that started the self destruct should get the kill mail since they did get both the killing blow and 100% of the damage to destroy the ship.
I have SD a few ibus and they do leave wreckage just like any other kill. os you just got unlucky over what gear survived
When I do something stupid it's a learning experience, when you do something stupid it's comedy. |
Sobon
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:14:00 -
[20]
I agree it's viable, but my solution to this is having everything roll on the loot table pernormal, with maybe a slightly reduced (1-5%) chance to not drop ---------------------------------------------------
TQ Server Status: "BLACK HAWK ____" Does this mean we can expect down time in the near future? |
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: WhiteSavage Many people in EVE have never even seen a Mothership or a Titan... but fights involving them are very usually the epitome of what EVE is all about. Epic face to face sluggouts involving huge assets that took in many cases, entire alliances to build, involving hundreds of players, and years of EVE subscriptions/personal time to buy and train for.
How long does it take to kill a Titan or a mothership? With a solid cap fleet and a well-rounded support contingient, sometimes 10 minutes, to half an hour. Obviously an even bigger fleet can hit up enough dps to kill one of these ships in maybe 5 minutes? Less?
Obviously many times supercapitals are trapped and tackled by smaller gangs... many of these kills occur in cyno jammed systems. Very long fights usually ensue... this is what eve is all about!
I've been a part of many supercapital fights and have helped kill Nyx's, Aeons, on many occations. But I have never gotten on a single killmail, or gotten a piece of loot. It seems that it is very easy for a mothership pilot to see when they are screwed... and very hard for 50 battleships to kill it under 2 minutes.
Recently members within our corporation worked for 2 weeks to setup a complex trap for an enemy mothership. The trap was finally sprung... 2 motherships, 10 carriers + about 60 support were either cynod or Titan bridged in... the mothership pilot shrugged and self destructed... making fun of us for his ability to use this broken game mechanic.
This same scenario has happened to me... with different details... 3 times now. Why in the world do supercapitals take the SAME amount of time to explode themselves as a rookie ship? Devoiding your enemy of loot is realistic... but to deny a killmail is utter failure and a huge loophole in the system. Corporations that create a killmail for a kill they worked for fought for and DIED for get made fun of by the community... and many argue that no killmail somehow = no kill.
In most cases it is impossible to kill a supercapital within 2 minutes... thus its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not. Self destruct secuences need to be varied by the size of the ship or class of the hull. This is incredibly stupid... i dont play eve to fight somebody, lose my ship, and have him lol in local as he self destructs before my friends can kill him.
Titans can die as fast as 20-30 secodns if they are caught by an obscene dread fleet. Look for the video of shrike 3rd titan loss. Dotn worry.. the video is small and under 1 minute...
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 02:53:00 -
[22]
So let me get this right. Corps/alliance use Killboard stats like a resume... but only obcenely sized cap fleets that can kill a mom in 20 seconds deserve to recieve a killmail and loot.
That makes, no sense whatsoever and adds nothing to eve content, rather takes away from it. Nobody has yet come up with a good reason that self-destructed ships dont generate some kind of killmail.
...and something tells me all these people disagreeing have never killed a single supercap :P
As it happens killing a supercap with 35 battleships is more of a feat then instapopping it with 100 sieged dreads...
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IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:06:00 -
[23]
IF a KM was created for the highest damage dealer the person who SD's the ship will get it every time because the SD blast is the same size no matter if the ship only has 1 point of HP left & that size is 100% of the total ship HP.
So it may be a little hard to get the highest damage if your not the person doing the SD.
There are a whole heap of debates on SD'ing & this is just one of them. SD'ing is a valid game mechanic & is used in other situations when it looks like it is hopeless trying to fight &there is a need or want to deprive the enemy/attacker from whatever it is they are after.
The end result is the same though as the ship can never be used for anything again & that does affect morale & other things. IF the person that did the SD thinks they have come out of the incident better than the attackers then that person must have rocks in their head or so much ISK that it really doesn't matter <I doubt there is anyone that can loose 15+ bill & not have it affect their wallet in a big way>
MS's & Titan's ATM are in need of some boosting & changes so I guess you can only hope that SD'ing changes are part of that.
In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?! |
Mavrk
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Johli Bring more ships next time.
Its this mentality that makes PVP ****ty. SHAME
-12/10
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Iman Atheist
Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2009.07.20 21:31:00 -
[25]
I agree with OP 100%
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Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar Noir.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:08:00 -
[26]
As part of an alliance who actually get paid on the basis of our kills, we have fallen foul of people who have self destructed and thereby robbed us of potential isk.
I agree completely that self destructing should rob the aggressors of the chance for loot, but the lack of a killmail seems a secondary outcome and one that I feel would benefit being looked into.
To those that have the comment of "bring more ships next time", I'd reply that we work in small roaming gangs and often come up against targets that think they're clever by bringing out cap ships against our HAC gangs. On the occasions we have lured these cap ships away from stations and got them trapped on a gate or in a belt we find that they decide to self destruct. I don't blame them tbh, I'd rather self destruct than sit there having my ship eaten away.
However, we have worked hard for this kill, and whilst we don't mind not getting the loot we do mind then not getting paid when we don't have a killmail to show our client.
Noir.
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Nosum Hseebnrido
Virtual Democracy Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Iman Atheist I agree with OP 100%
bump
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:41:00 -
[28]
Question:
As an alliance that gets "paid" for killmails.
Why are you not Frapsing these encounters? Thats just as much proof as a kill mail that the enemy was destroyed....
Click for gallery! |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kan3r Blaze As part of an alliance who actually get paid on the basis of our kills, we have fallen foul of people who have self destructed and thereby robbed us of potential isk.
I agree completely that self destructing should rob the aggressors of the chance for loot, but the lack of a killmail seems a secondary outcome and one that I feel would benefit being looked into.
To those that have the comment of "bring more ships next time", I'd reply that we work in small roaming gangs and often come up against targets that think they're clever by bringing out cap ships against our HAC gangs. On the occasions we have lured these cap ships away from stations and got them trapped on a gate or in a belt we find that they decide to self destruct. I don't blame them tbh, I'd rather self destruct than sit there having my ship eaten away.
However, we have worked hard for this kill, and whilst we don't mind not getting the loot we do mind then not getting paid when we don't have a killmail to show our client.
Make a better contract with your client then. Like them approving fraps or screens. Simple. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar Noir.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:20:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kan3r Blaze on 27/07/2009 13:23:25 Fraps is certainly one way we use to verify kills. For instance, this is how we verified our last carrier self destruct to our client at the time.
However, we also use our killboards as an internal payment system. Points = cash, and having to manually track payments when a killmail is not generated is a pain in the backside for our CEO.
EDIT: What I forgot to mention is that not all of our members are able to use fraps i.e. low spec rig so this is only an option in certain circumstances.
Noir.
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