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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:44:00 -
[1]
Many people in EVE have never even seen a Mothership or a Titan... but fights involving them are very usually the epitome of what EVE is all about. Epic face to face sluggouts involving huge assets that took in many cases, entire alliances to build, involving hundreds of players, and years of EVE subscriptions/personal time to buy and train for.
How long does it take to kill a Titan or a mothership? With a solid cap fleet and a well-rounded support contingient, sometimes 10 minutes, to half an hour. Obviously an even bigger fleet can hit up enough dps to kill one of these ships in maybe 5 minutes? Less?
Obviously many times supercapitals are trapped and tackled by smaller gangs... many of these kills occur in cyno jammed systems. Very long fights usually ensue... this is what eve is all about!
I've been a part of many supercapital fights and have helped kill Nyx's, Aeons, on many occations. But I have never gotten on a single killmail, or gotten a piece of loot. It seems that it is very easy for a mothership pilot to see when they are screwed... and very hard for 50 battleships to kill it under 2 minutes.
Recently members within our corporation worked for 2 weeks to setup a complex trap for an enemy mothership. The trap was finally sprung... 2 motherships, 10 carriers + about 60 support were either cynod or Titan bridged in... the mothership pilot shrugged and self destructed... making fun of us for his ability to use this broken game mechanic.
This same scenario has happened to me... with different details... 3 times now. Why in the world do supercapitals take the SAME amount of time to explode themselves as a rookie ship? Devoiding your enemy of loot is realistic... but to deny a killmail is utter failure and a huge loophole in the system. Corporations that create a killmail for a kill they worked for fought for and DIED for get made fun of by the community... and many argue that no killmail somehow = no kill.
In most cases it is impossible to kill a supercapital within 2 minutes... thus its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not. Self destruct secuences need to be varied by the size of the ship or class of the hull. This is incredibly stupid... i dont play eve to fight somebody, lose my ship, and have him lol in local as he self destructs before my friends can kill him.
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:59:00 -
[2]
Killmails are not everything. Get over it. ==========
Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:06:00 -
[3]
Edited by: WhiteSavage on 18/07/2009 00:06:30
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
No matter what your personal opinion... killmails are part of EVE. To many people they are one of the most important things IN EVE. So personally being a carebear or not careing about killmails... means what to this discusion. Why do you even post.
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:43:00 -
[4]
I guess there's an argument to be made that it's a form of griefing. The definition of griefing is engaging in actions that serve no purpose other than to annoy, or ruin the game, for others. The only reason to self destruct your ship in combat is to prevent the people who have beaten you from gaining anything from the encounter. You don't gain anything from doing it, you just deny other people from gaining anything.
I'm not sure how self destructing works with regard to loot (the people I kill don't often last long enough to pull this off :P), but if it does indeed prevent any loot from dropping then for a start that's just inconsistent. Why would loot drop when a ship is destroyed by another ship, but not when it destroys itself? Even apart from that, there are plenty of people who make their living from PvP. The only way to make money this way is either to wardec people in highsec and hurt them enough that they pay up, or to ransom their ships, or to destroy them and take the loot. Successfully self destructing your ship totally negates the last 2 of those. That seems a bit unfair to me.
With regard to the killmail, why shouldn't you care about killmails? They're in the game, why not care about them? They're the only record of what you've destroyed, and like I say, for a lot of people, PvP is the whole point of the game. It's not about controlling space, or making isk, it's about fighting battles, and the fact you can say you killed a mothership is more important than being able to say you helped your alliance hold on to XY-123 for an extra 3 weeks. This is a perfectly valid approach to the game, and a very common one too.
For example, if someone in a lone cruiser was able to tackle a capital that had no hope of support arriving any time soon, and he was able to kill it by himself, albeit slowly, why shouldn't he be able to brag about it? Without the killmail there's no proof. It's a flaw of the system (admittedly for reasons of lag perhaps unavoidable) that killmails are only sent to the final blow, which in the case of a self destruct is nobody. If that can't be fixed, then there definitely needs to be something else done to prevent killmail dodging.
I'd like to suggest that it's impossible to self destruct your ship while warp scrambled, but obviously that would open the door to all kinds of griefing. to be honest I like your idea of linking the self destruct time to ship size. I reckon that's the only way to do it fairly. Say an upper limit of half an hour for a titan, with a minimum of 30 seconds for a frigate. If you can't kill something in half an hour, you probably don't deserve the kill, frankly, and I honestly can't think why anyone would want to self destruct a supercap other than to deny killmails/loot, but half an hour isn't that long a wait really, at least, not in Eve terms.
One other possibility would be to remove insurance payouts on self destructed ships. I don't know if people regularly insure their capitals, but your car insurance company wouldn't pay out if you burnt your own car out, would they?
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:58:00 -
[5]
Confirming that i think big explosions should take longer since they are bigger unless of course the explosion has racing stripes which would then make them blow up faster- racing stripes make everything faster.
If your doing everything for the kill mail then congrats- youve lost- cause he denied you your precious pixel mail while losing his precious pixel ship
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Future Mutant Confirming that i think big explosions should take longer since they are bigger unless of course the explosion has racing stripes which would then make them blow up faster- racing stripes make everything faster.
If your doing everything for the kill mail then congrats- youve lost- cause he denied you your precious pixel mail while losing his precious pixel ship
Again, this arguement means what to the tpic raised? Thanks for your opinion why r u even here.
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Irn Bruce I guess there's an argument to be made that it's a form of griefing. The definition of griefing is engaging in actions that serve no purpose other than to annoy, or ruin the game, for others. The only reason to self destruct your ship in combat is to prevent the people who have beaten you from gaining anything from the encounter. You don't gain anything from doing it, you just deny other people from gaining anything.
I'm not sure how self destructing works with regard to loot (the people I kill don't often last long enough to pull this off :P), but if it does indeed prevent any loot from dropping then for a start that's just inconsistent. Why would loot drop when a ship is destroyed by another ship, but not when it destroys itself? Even apart from that, there are plenty of people who make their living from PvP. The only way to make money this way is either to wardec people in highsec and hurt them enough that they pay up, or to ransom their ships, or to destroy them and take the loot. Successfully self destructing your ship totally negates the last 2 of those. That seems a bit unfair to me.
With regard to the killmail, why shouldn't you care about killmails? They're in the game, why not care about them? They're the only record of what you've destroyed, and like I say, for a lot of people, PvP is the whole point of the game. It's not about controlling space, or making isk, it's about fighting battles, and the fact you can say you killed a mothership is more important than being able to say you helped your alliance hold on to XY-123 for an extra 3 weeks. This is a perfectly valid approach to the game, and a very common one too.
For example, if someone in a lone cruiser was able to tackle a capital that had no hope of support arriving any time soon, and he was able to kill it by himself, albeit slowly, why shouldn't he be able to brag about it? Without the killmail there's no proof. It's a flaw of the system (admittedly for reasons of lag perhaps unavoidable) that killmails are only sent to the final blow, which in the case of a self destruct is nobody. If that can't be fixed, then there definitely needs to be something else done to prevent killmail dodging.
I'd like to suggest that it's impossible to self destruct your ship while warp scrambled, but obviously that would open the door to all kinds of griefing. to be honest I like your idea of linking the self destruct time to ship size. I reckon that's the only way to do it fairly. Say an upper limit of half an hour for a titan, with a minimum of 30 seconds for a frigate. If you can't kill something in half an hour, you probably don't deserve the kill, frankly, and I honestly can't think why anyone would want to self destruct a supercap other than to deny killmails/loot, but half an hour isn't that long a wait really, at least, not in Eve terms.
One other possibility would be to remove insurance payouts on self destructed ships. I don't know if people regularly insure their capitals, but your car insurance company wouldn't pay out if you burnt your own car out, would they?
The denial of loot is important too I agree. Another thing i hate is the fact that they can be shooting at you while they self destruct. Seems to negate the purpose of abandoning ship? Either way the game mechanic is flawed and needs to be fixed.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:26:00 -
[8]
After reading your topic title the only thing i had in my mind was, that an ibis selfdestruction should have an epic sound like that:
http://www.myvideo.at/watch/5488099 (The "pod" appears at 00:56 sec)
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.07.18 07:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: WhiteSavage Edited by: WhiteSavage on 18/07/2009 00:06:30
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
No matter what your personal opinion... killmails are part of EVE. To many people they are one of the most important things IN EVE. So personally being a carebear or not careing about killmails... means what to this discusion. Why do you even post.
The only thing you lose is your personal satisfaction backed up by a killmail written in stone for all to see. I know there's an element of morale in the equation where the enemy party doesn't want a black mark on his alliance of a mothership loss and they don't want you to claim the credit for the kill. But if you keep destroying their assets like that, then the morale damage will still take its toll on your opponents. Not to mention you still deprived them of a valuable ship. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
ollobrains
Aurora Nomads
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Posted - 2009.07.18 11:26:00 -
[10]
how about this if youre tackled or under fire self destruct takes one hour ( this might force em to eject at least) and enough time to kill cap ships ( longer for cap ships sounds reasonable
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.18 11:50:00 -
[11]
killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.18 13:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Robert Caldera killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
This.
And why should it be any different in rookie shisp time to self destyrucy adn a MS? you only press a trigger :P.
So your comparisson to a rookie ships do not help your cause in my eyes.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Johli
Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.07.18 14:49:00 -
[13]
Bring more ships next time.
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Nico Terces
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Posted - 2009.07.18 16:13:00 -
[14]
I fail to see the issue. The guy you killed was lolling at you cuz you didnt get a killmail? I'd lol at him cuz he lost a friggin expensive ship, and you did not!
A killmail is a luxery, destroyed assets hurt.
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.07.18 19:51:00 -
[15]
You guys are too hard on the OP. I agree with the idea and I think it's a good one. If your enemy self-destructs while tackled, I think a killmail should be generated. If he escapes and self-destructs in a safespot, then no.
-/ the fighting republicans /- |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.07.18 20:11:00 -
[16]
Self destruct should turn off all modules that would fix this issue, also cyno in some dreads and seige it next time!
A self destruct should still be counted as a kill the mail going to the highest damaging agressor. The only advantage of using self destruct would be to destroy all your cargo and fittings. It would be fun to also do AOE damage based on your hull type, but this would be abused.
A far bigger problem imho is the logoffski tactic used on solo JFs and caps in general, its getting more common when they screw up solo, when they get caught they should stay caught.
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Sobon
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.18 22:08:00 -
[17]
Not on the issue of the KM, but rather the loss of the mods, selfdestruct destroys every mod on the ship depriving the killers of material gain. ---------------------------------------------------
TQ Server Status: "BLACK HAWK ____" Does this mean we can expect down time in the near future? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.18 22:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sobon Not on the issue of the KM, but rather the loss of the mods, selfdestruct destroys every mod on the ship depriving the killers of material gain.
And the victim know this, thus he does it.
Self destruct is a perfectly viable tactic.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Doctor Dodo
Caldari Dalek Tactical Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:13:00 -
[19]
If a kill mail goes out from a self destruct the pilot that started the self destruct should get the kill mail since they did get both the killing blow and 100% of the damage to destroy the ship.
I have SD a few ibus and they do leave wreckage just like any other kill. os you just got unlucky over what gear survived
When I do something stupid it's a learning experience, when you do something stupid it's comedy. |
Sobon
Caldari Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:14:00 -
[20]
I agree it's viable, but my solution to this is having everything roll on the loot table pernormal, with maybe a slightly reduced (1-5%) chance to not drop ---------------------------------------------------
TQ Server Status: "BLACK HAWK ____" Does this mean we can expect down time in the near future? |
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.18 23:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: WhiteSavage Many people in EVE have never even seen a Mothership or a Titan... but fights involving them are very usually the epitome of what EVE is all about. Epic face to face sluggouts involving huge assets that took in many cases, entire alliances to build, involving hundreds of players, and years of EVE subscriptions/personal time to buy and train for.
How long does it take to kill a Titan or a mothership? With a solid cap fleet and a well-rounded support contingient, sometimes 10 minutes, to half an hour. Obviously an even bigger fleet can hit up enough dps to kill one of these ships in maybe 5 minutes? Less?
Obviously many times supercapitals are trapped and tackled by smaller gangs... many of these kills occur in cyno jammed systems. Very long fights usually ensue... this is what eve is all about!
I've been a part of many supercapital fights and have helped kill Nyx's, Aeons, on many occations. But I have never gotten on a single killmail, or gotten a piece of loot. It seems that it is very easy for a mothership pilot to see when they are screwed... and very hard for 50 battleships to kill it under 2 minutes.
Recently members within our corporation worked for 2 weeks to setup a complex trap for an enemy mothership. The trap was finally sprung... 2 motherships, 10 carriers + about 60 support were either cynod or Titan bridged in... the mothership pilot shrugged and self destructed... making fun of us for his ability to use this broken game mechanic.
This same scenario has happened to me... with different details... 3 times now. Why in the world do supercapitals take the SAME amount of time to explode themselves as a rookie ship? Devoiding your enemy of loot is realistic... but to deny a killmail is utter failure and a huge loophole in the system. Corporations that create a killmail for a kill they worked for fought for and DIED for get made fun of by the community... and many argue that no killmail somehow = no kill.
In most cases it is impossible to kill a supercapital within 2 minutes... thus its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not. Self destruct secuences need to be varied by the size of the ship or class of the hull. This is incredibly stupid... i dont play eve to fight somebody, lose my ship, and have him lol in local as he self destructs before my friends can kill him.
Titans can die as fast as 20-30 secodns if they are caught by an obscene dread fleet. Look for the video of shrike 3rd titan loss. Dotn worry.. the video is small and under 1 minute...
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WhiteSavage
Gallente Altruism.
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Posted - 2009.07.19 02:53:00 -
[22]
So let me get this right. Corps/alliance use Killboard stats like a resume... but only obcenely sized cap fleets that can kill a mom in 20 seconds deserve to recieve a killmail and loot.
That makes, no sense whatsoever and adds nothing to eve content, rather takes away from it. Nobody has yet come up with a good reason that self-destructed ships dont generate some kind of killmail.
...and something tells me all these people disagreeing have never killed a single supercap :P
As it happens killing a supercap with 35 battleships is more of a feat then instapopping it with 100 sieged dreads...
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IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:06:00 -
[23]
IF a KM was created for the highest damage dealer the person who SD's the ship will get it every time because the SD blast is the same size no matter if the ship only has 1 point of HP left & that size is 100% of the total ship HP.
So it may be a little hard to get the highest damage if your not the person doing the SD.
There are a whole heap of debates on SD'ing & this is just one of them. SD'ing is a valid game mechanic & is used in other situations when it looks like it is hopeless trying to fight &there is a need or want to deprive the enemy/attacker from whatever it is they are after.
The end result is the same though as the ship can never be used for anything again & that does affect morale & other things. IF the person that did the SD thinks they have come out of the incident better than the attackers then that person must have rocks in their head or so much ISK that it really doesn't matter <I doubt there is anyone that can loose 15+ bill & not have it affect their wallet in a big way>
MS's & Titan's ATM are in need of some boosting & changes so I guess you can only hope that SD'ing changes are part of that.
In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?! |
Mavrk
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Johli Bring more ships next time.
Its this mentality that makes PVP ****ty. SHAME
-12/10
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Iman Atheist
Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2009.07.20 21:31:00 -
[25]
I agree with OP 100%
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Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar Noir.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:08:00 -
[26]
As part of an alliance who actually get paid on the basis of our kills, we have fallen foul of people who have self destructed and thereby robbed us of potential isk.
I agree completely that self destructing should rob the aggressors of the chance for loot, but the lack of a killmail seems a secondary outcome and one that I feel would benefit being looked into.
To those that have the comment of "bring more ships next time", I'd reply that we work in small roaming gangs and often come up against targets that think they're clever by bringing out cap ships against our HAC gangs. On the occasions we have lured these cap ships away from stations and got them trapped on a gate or in a belt we find that they decide to self destruct. I don't blame them tbh, I'd rather self destruct than sit there having my ship eaten away.
However, we have worked hard for this kill, and whilst we don't mind not getting the loot we do mind then not getting paid when we don't have a killmail to show our client.
Noir.
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Nosum Hseebnrido
Virtual Democracy Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Iman Atheist I agree with OP 100%
bump
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:41:00 -
[28]
Question:
As an alliance that gets "paid" for killmails.
Why are you not Frapsing these encounters? Thats just as much proof as a kill mail that the enemy was destroyed....
Click for gallery! |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kan3r Blaze As part of an alliance who actually get paid on the basis of our kills, we have fallen foul of people who have self destructed and thereby robbed us of potential isk.
I agree completely that self destructing should rob the aggressors of the chance for loot, but the lack of a killmail seems a secondary outcome and one that I feel would benefit being looked into.
To those that have the comment of "bring more ships next time", I'd reply that we work in small roaming gangs and often come up against targets that think they're clever by bringing out cap ships against our HAC gangs. On the occasions we have lured these cap ships away from stations and got them trapped on a gate or in a belt we find that they decide to self destruct. I don't blame them tbh, I'd rather self destruct than sit there having my ship eaten away.
However, we have worked hard for this kill, and whilst we don't mind not getting the loot we do mind then not getting paid when we don't have a killmail to show our client.
Make a better contract with your client then. Like them approving fraps or screens. Simple. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar Noir.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:20:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kan3r Blaze on 27/07/2009 13:23:25 Fraps is certainly one way we use to verify kills. For instance, this is how we verified our last carrier self destruct to our client at the time.
However, we also use our killboards as an internal payment system. Points = cash, and having to manually track payments when a killmail is not generated is a pain in the backside for our CEO.
EDIT: What I forgot to mention is that not all of our members are able to use fraps i.e. low spec rig so this is only an option in certain circumstances.
Noir.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.07.27 23:25:00 -
[31]
CCP!!!
Please oh please oh please oh please
DO NOT CHANGE THIS MECHANIC
Sheesh, I don't know why altruism would even post this in the suggestions forum, because they will usually fake up the killmail anyway. The fact that they didn't earn it doesn't matter to them.
If I have a clone, and effective immortality, the fact that I can potentially self destruct to avoid a faction warfare enemy from earning LP, or the fact that i can self destruct to prevent a mercenary from earning isk for my death is VERY important. It's a tough call to make to self destruct or not. Let's keep eve the complex difficult game that it is, and not go the WOW way of easy, simple decisions.
Honestly... altruism needs to stop whining on this issue (and maybe even stop posting fake killmails)
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Kan3r Blaze
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.28 10:40:00 -
[32]
<devilsadvocate> Well, if they're going to fake mails anyway, why not give them an accurate killmail? </devilsadvocate>
On a more serious note, I think whilst there's arguments that can be proposed for and against the production of a killmail the important thing to note is that it seems odd that every other type of ship loss in PVE and PVP produces one but self destruct is for some reason exempt.
Noir.
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Mephiston Lucius
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Posted - 2009.07.28 11:44:00 -
[33]
well man has a point stop crying over it killmails part of this game and some corp/alliances giving rewards to who have most kills / points /etc to pilots and also while activating your "self destruct" u should be loosing control over your ship / let alone loot there should be a sign for that destruction and its usualy a KM.. but ccp never goin to think over for this.. so.. good luck
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Akura kawanaka
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.28 12:29:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Akura kawanaka on 28/07/2009 12:29:54 Having a read of this: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Self_destruction implies that this will perhaps become more prevalent due to self destructing t3 ships eliminating the skill loss penalty of having your ship destroyed. It also seems to indicate that self-destructing a ship should perhaps not destroy the loot " Self destructing a ship leaves a wreck in space that can still be looted and salvaged normally." Which afaik is not really the case currently as all the loot gets destroyed.
I think a happy medium would be to fix the loot drop mechanic so that self destructing leaves the same chance of module drops as normal destruction. This would remove any tactical reason to self destruct and will reduce the whining from people who don't get their loot from T3 kills.
P.S. the fight that spawned this thread (Iitanmadan 2009-07-17 @22:30ish)is a good story - Motherships being de-cloaked by industrials, sleepy titan pilots jumping instead of bridging... lots of fun and frivolity. Unfortunately it didn't happen because there is no killmail proof :-( c est la vie.
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.29 07:23:00 -
[35]
Why not just change the self destruct timer, to be based on a ships signature radius?
The larger the ship the longer the self destruct sequence. *********** Military Tactics Dasfry, CEO Demio's Corporation
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Rawbin Hood
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.29 10:06:00 -
[36]
i would like to see massive damage to surrounding vessels when you self destruct.
◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count) |
Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.07.29 11:05:00 -
[37]
I think they should grant the killmail to the person laying the final human blow in the attacking force in the same way that the killmail is granted to an attacker even if the target was actually destroyed by CONCORD.
As for the timer... dunno... logically it should not take longer to set off a big bomb inside your ship than it should to set off a small bomb inside your ship. Denying loot is very valid in my opinion.
Now if only Eve was about logic.... because if it was, it wouldn't take 2 minutes. I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight, obviously. Divine Wind ftw.
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Rawbin Hood
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.07.29 11:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tiny Tove I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight
◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count) |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.07.30 01:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: WhiteSavage ... its up to every supercap pilot to be quote on quote "honerable" or not.
First, it's "quote, un-quote".
Second, you don't need to use the phrase since you're writing this statement and can use real, honest-to-goodness quote marks(ie: the " you put at both ends of your so-called quote).
Third: what you were doing was not quoting something that someone had said, so it's not even correct to use 'quote, unquote' in the verbal form. What you were doing is called irony, for which quote marks can be used - but in the verbal form you'd say, "so-called honourable".
Fourth: the mothership is destroyed. that's what matters.
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.07.30 03:08:00 -
[40]
This:
Originally by: Xorth Adimus
A self destruct should still be counted as a kill the mail going to the highest damaging agressor. The only advantage of using self destruct would be to destroy all your cargo and fittings. It would be fun to also do AOE damage based on your hull type, but this would be abused.
A far bigger problem imho is the logoffski tactic used on solo JFs and caps in general, its getting more common when they screw up solo, when they get caught they should stay caught.
So, why is it that self destructed ships don't leave a killmail and loot? It seems like they should; or at least a killmail.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.07.30 05:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kan3r Blaze <devilsadvocate> Well, if they're going to fake mails anyway, why not give them an accurate killmail? </devilsadvocate>
On a more serious note, I think whilst there's arguments that can be proposed for and against the production of a killmail the important thing to note is that it seems odd that every other type of ship loss in PVE and PVP produces one but self destruct is for some reason exempt.
Seems reasonable to me that a killmail only comes into existence when an enemy (whether PVP or PVE) actually kills a ship. This is simply not the case with self destructing, so naturally there's no killmail. It's pretty darn logical really
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MirrorGod
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.07.30 05:58:00 -
[42]
To hell with CCPs broken mechanic. 420 Fabricate Self-Destruct mails everyday.
Also helps to fraps/screenshot the kill. Further, make a propaganda vid, get an alt in said-cowards alliance and spam it in alliance mail, scrapheap, whatever. Making a thread about it just opens up the door for over 9000 carebears to fgt it up.
~supportin dis thread~
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Aethrwolf
Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.07.30 06:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
As for the timer... dunno... logically it should not take longer to set off a big bomb inside your ship than it should to set off a small bomb inside your ship. Denying loot is very valid in my opinion.
Now if only Eve was about logic.... because if it was, it wouldn't take 2 minutes. I'd simply have to tap down on my joystick three times, twice at the start of the fight, obviously. Divine Wind ftw.
problem here seems to be in the meaning of self destruct. In EVE, self destruct is like a wet navy scuttling a ship to avoid capture. The crew wipes computer systems, sets charges so the hull will not be repairable, and individually destroys/sets charges on all other systems. Thereby depriving the enemy of any useful material except possibly salvage of raw materials. In EVE it would actually be possible to deny even that with a big enough explosion to scatter the remains to the reaches of space, but an explosion like that would also have to do AOE damage and I'm sure CCP doesnt want everyone to have access to a mini doomsday just by hitting self destruct. Back to the point I was making... its only logical that a larger ships would take longer to self destruct. Yes, hulls could be pre rigged with charges, but I wouldnt want active modules rigged that way, as a problem with a module could in theory set the charges off prematurely. "heat damage now causes a chance of the module exploding every time it cycles" anyone? oh, and lets not forget "a module exploding has a chance to set off explosions in adjacent modules" which leads to "a chain reaction of module explosions can cause scuttling charges in the hull to prematurely explode, effecting an involuntary self destruct"
actually.. that might be pretty cool Absolutely everything is subjective. |
joxter
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:01:00 -
[44]
Obviously a killmail has value to those that want them. My ship has value to me. If you deny me my ship than I shall deny you your killmail. Zero sum equation.
Leave things as they are, working as intended.
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Rhohan
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:13:00 -
[45]
Originally by: joxter Obviously a killmail has value to those that want them. My ship has value to me. If you deny me my ship than I shall deny you your killmail. Zero sum equation.
Leave things as they are, working as intended.
This
btw, get over it. There are worse things in life.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.31 14:28:00 -
[46]
You blobbed someone so they self-destructed. Symapthy = 0.
Use less of a blob next time and maybe the target may try to fight it out.
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Atropos Kahn
Caldari Solarflare Heavy Industries Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.07.31 14:40:00 -
[47]
- Easy Answer -
A ship that sets self destruct still has 2 minute timer, but Shield/Armor/Hull points immediately go to 0 once self destruct is activated.
It still gives the lone pilot the dignity of killing themselves when in deep space and stuck and want to get home fast, but also enables the first hostile pilot who comes along to relieve the self destructing pilot by not having to wait out the 2 minutes.
This a win win for all...
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Lord AtTiLAs
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.07.31 16:52:00 -
[48]
Originally by: WhiteSavage The denial of loot is important too I agree. Another thing i hate is the fact that they can be shooting at you while they self destruct. Seems to negate the purpose of abandoning ship? Either way the game mechanic is flawed and needs to be fixed. The basic point is that it is impossible in most scenarios to kill a mothership that chooses to self destruct, this equates to a broken game mechanic. Needs to be fixed.
All module should turn offline when you trigger self destruct on a ship. Giving a possibility to kill it quickly.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.08.01 02:07:00 -
[49]
Sigh...
If you guys manage to get self destructing nerfed... I suppose that you're going to target ejecting from ships next? Exact same effect, and with a well timed eject, you still deny both the killmail and the ship to your enemy.
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EMPIRE TRAD3R
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Posted - 2009.08.01 04:56:00 -
[50]
Simple solution.
No self destructing if you have aggression timer.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.08.01 09:39:00 -
[51]
The gankster and Jan Brady tears in this thread are delicious.
Awww whatsamatter? Didn't get your widdle killmail? Waaaaa!
Gee, perhaps this game is not Gank & Blob Online after all.
Since I don't see the same names calling for an end to insurance payouts for ships lost to CONCORD... Since I don't see an end to "aiding and abetting criminals and known terrorists" - known in this game as grinding LVL 4 missions with an alt and sending the fat ISK to the piratey main... Since I don't see an end to the unbeatable bubblerama... Since I don't see high-security status players being able to hunt down and attack low-sec players without taking a security hit themselves... And since I don't see an end to people with null sec status even seeing any high-sec gates that will work for them when in a pod...
Now the same crowd is crying over not getting a killmail because their victim used that one last resort to everything else the offending party had.
Next thing they will want is to nerf cloaks or move all lvl 4 missions to low sec.
Seriously, they take wrecks out from under the mission runners, because they can, with no consideration for the time and ammunition spent on making that wreck, but now a simple self-destruct command denys them a killmail for the time and ammunition they spent, and here comes the river of tears.
And I thought this game was not supposed to be fair.
Self destruct is fine. If you don't like it, go back to playing your Blood Elves.
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ninjaholic
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.08.01 11:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
Lol. Blunt but fact. If you can't blow it up within the two minutes of the pilot realizing it's game over, then you don't deserve the killmail
Plus, honorable players in Eve Online?
Keep looking, there's not that many.
>>> SUPPORT EVE's OWN IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL! <<<
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.08.01 11:41:00 -
[53]
2 minutes is actually far to long.
Either make some ships without self destruct or reduce that timer to 30 seconds.
When you have the choice of moving 30 BS 80 jumps or stripping them of modules and self destructing for insurance so you can buy them again at the destination, 2mins - almost 1 hour of time (session changes ftl), it can add up, but its still tons (HOURS) faster than moving them still.
As for not dropping anything, hahahahahaha someone is ninja'looting and NOT TELLING YOU.
Self destruct drops same as normal kill. You got fooled by someone in your own corp/fleet.
Must admit, I'm missing many a capital kill on my stats for this, but really don't need my e-peen rubbed so meh.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i for one, like 8's that look like 9's lol
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:39:00 -
[54]
I think if a ship is destroyed (however it's done) while the aggression timer is active, a killmail should be generated, sent to the last person that damaged it. The self destructor could be excluded from this by timestamping the damage done by the SD at the point that self destruct was initiated, rather than when the damage was applied.
As to the AOE effect in terms of damage/blast radius, make them equivalent to a number of smartbombs going off- maybe with different race's ships doing different damage types.
so frigate hull would explode equivalent to X small smartbombs Destroyer hull would explode equivalent to Y small smartbombs cruiser hull would explode equivalent to Z medium smartbombs etc.
This way the AOE is limited, while still having the risk of flying too close to an exploding ship.
Glyken
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.08.02 07:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Robert Caldera killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
This.
And why should it be any different in rookie shisp time to self destyrucy adn a MS? you only press a trigger :P.
So your comparisson to a rookie ships do not help your cause in my eyes.
Actually, from a realism point of view, 2 minutes is way too short for a large ship. It takes time to skuttle a real ship, you have to rig sufficient charges, and be sure they will all go off. For a cap ship to be completely destroyed with no loot left over, you'd have to rig every single system with massive charges. To just "press a button" and blow up your ship, you'd have to have the charges pre-rigged, in which case any bit of damage could destroy your whole ship. It's very difficult to skuttle a ship in combat. Even overloading a reactor core takes a long ass time. Usually, you destroy your own ship after combat, because it's crippled, to keep it out of enemy hands. When is that a problem in Eve?
As for the kill mail, some people care some don't. Seems to me that if you self destruct your ship you care.
That's beside the point though. The whole no kill mail from SD seems like an oversite to me. If the ship exploded then there should be a kill mail somewhere. Everything in eve gets recorded somewhere. Seems to me that it should be sent to whoever got the last hit before it went boom. I've had people on some of my loss mails that were completely unrelated to the actual battle I lost my ship in. They shot at me as I jumped through a gate two systems ago or something. Why shouldn't the people that shot at a ship before it self destructed show up? Hell put the pilot of the ship on there too, and show his damage to his own ship as well.
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wickedpheonix
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Posted - 2009.08.02 13:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Robert Caldera killmail *****. The MS is down, wheter selfdestructed or shot into pieces, whatever. Your goal is achieved.
You know, not all of us live in nullsec where our sole purpose would be to gain more space and keep people out of our existing space. For small gang/solo that killmail isn't proof that you killed someone but rather proof that someone died as a result of your actions. To deny a killmail to your enemy is pure and utter cowardice.
So it basically works like this CCP: either give us a killmail when someone self-destructs (because wanting to deny your opponent loot is arguably legitimate) or let us petition self-destructing as a form of griefing. The system as it is is 100% broken.
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Aston Vette
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:52:00 -
[57]
You're right. Self destructing an ibis should take less time than a mothership. For instance all you would have to do to destroy an ibis would be to open a hatch. So that would probably take only like 5-10 seconds right? The mothership should take about 2 minutes or less, since there's probably a button or something. Maybe a big lever...
While we're messing around with the timers, loot tables, etc. I'd like to say that the explosion caused by self destruction should be sufficient to cause damage to those nearby. Like a mothership kaboom should take out t1 cruisers within 10km or so. Please discuss.
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Alfons Richthofen
Caldari Die Luftwaffe
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Question:
As an alliance that gets "paid" for killmails.
Why are you not Frapsing these encounters? Thats just as much proof as a kill mail that the enemy was destroyed....
More important things to worry about in a battle. Some people don't have the hardware to play with FRAPS on.
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Kempeth
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.03 09:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Actually, from a realism point of view, 2 minutes is way too short for a large ship. It takes time to skuttle a real ship, you have to rig sufficient charges, and be sure they will all go off. For a cap ship to be completely destroyed with no loot left over, you'd have to rig every single system with massive charges. To just "press a button" and blow up your ship, you'd have to have the charges pre-rigged, in which case any bit of damage could destroy your whole ship.
You're thinking traditional explosive charges. EVE Technology is far more advanced. The shipyards could have installed numerous smartbombs all around the ship. They wouldn't prematurely detonate because of incoming damage and would only require the push of a button to be set off.
As for the killmail I don't see why one should be issued or the kill attributed to the last person to shoot at the ship. If it's your profession to cause as much damage and demoralization as possible to other players by killing their ships you should accept their ability to do the same to you and deny you the kill... ---------------------------------------------- The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It's just twice as big as it need to be... |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kempeth As for the killmail I don't see why one should be issued or the kill attributed to the last person to shoot at the ship. If it's your profession to cause as much damage and demoralization as possible to other players by killing their ships you should accept their ability to do the same to you and deny you the kill...
this
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:36:00 -
[61]
How about reworking the self-destruct mechanism as follows:
1. Remove instant destruction after the 2-minute timer. 2. Modules all overload and are destroyed, along with cargo, during the first 15 seconds after the timer completes. 3. The ship damages itself fast enough to be destroyed 30 seconds after the timer completes. 4. A killmail is sent to the ship's owner and shows up on the API of everyone else who dealt damage after the timer completed. The ship is considered as having damaged itself and this amount of damage is listed on the killmail. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Ratchman
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:26:00 -
[62]
I have to say that I agree with the OP here. It should take longer for larger ships to self-destruct. As he demonstrates, if the cornered individual feels vindictive (which, let's face it, is the majority of the time), they will self-destruct to deny that kill-mail and loot.
The kill-mail side of the argument is debatable. Kill mails are not everything, that is true, but if you spent time luring someone into a trap like the OP describes, you should be awarded one for the effort. At the same time, there are those people who will pursue killmails as though it were their sole function, so we don't want to make the game all about that, because it then becomes a vehicle for obsession rather than one for fun.
The loot side of the argument is far more pertinent. Loot is always reward for these sorts of kills, and a good return for the time invested in setting up such traps. It also serves as a motivation for performing PvP beyond the killmail whoring or the control of territory.
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Alfons Richthofen
Caldari Die Luftwaffe
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Posted - 2009.10.12 11:36:00 -
[63]
Originally by: WhiteSavage Edited by: WhiteSavage on 18/07/2009 00:06:30
Originally by: Sera Ryskin Killmails are not everything. Get over it.
No matter what your personal opinion... killmails are part of EVE. To many people they are one of the most important things IN EVE. So personally being a carebear or not careing about killmails... means what to this discusion. Why do you even post.
This. Sera Ryskin you make no logical point. Just because you have no desire for something doesn't mean other people don't. Also you present no valid reason for this idea to not be implemented you simply just joined the thread and blathered about something unrelated, which is your opinion on the importance of kill mails.
On the other hand (back on topic) I agree completely self destructing IS basically only to grief someone out of a kill mail.
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Araq Lacrimosa
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.12 12:32:00 -
[64]
I agree with WhiteSavage, but after testing the new Moms with fighter bombers on Sisi, i honestly don't think you won't be ale to kill them fast enough post-dominion... the dps was epic.
In any case though, a killmail should be generated by self-destructing, if the person has taken any damage before they explode. count the health they forsake as self-inflicted.
Victim: Emo Pilot Corp: -------- Alliance: NONE Faction: NONE Destroyed: Nyx System: L5-JEP Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 2000000
Involved parties: Emo Pilot (Laid the final cut) Damage Done: 1850
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:42:00 -
[65]
In my ignorance I made a new topic just about this: let self-destructs generate kill mails, period. All the emo and whines should then stop.
My personal opinion is, if you self-destruct, nothing should drop (except the wreck of course). The attackers get their kill mail, the outnumbered pilot can prevent loot dropping - if he can hold out long enough. ______________ Join the Family |
WAuter
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.12 14:56:00 -
[66]
Agreed plz remove self destruct from all ships, except for pods. For small ships it doens't matter because they die before the timer runs out for bigger ships it does matter because the attacker does not get any loot or KM and the capital pilot is probably gonna lose his ship anyway.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:03:00 -
[67]
So.. where's the problem?
Ok, create a killmail if selfdestructing while tackled for all I care. But seriously, killmails play too big a part in EVE already and imho they have a more negative than positive impact on gameplay. We should rather look for ways to cut down that importance.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
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Posted - 2009.10.12 15:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek But seriously, killmails play too big a part in EVE already and imho they have a more negative than positive impact on gameplay. We should rather look for ways to cut down that importance.
In what way are they negative? Surly PvPers should be able to paint the metaphorical x on their ship - everyone wants to know who's got the most kills etc.
That aside I agree with the OP but I think it would be simpler just to generate killmails for self destructs.
Given that if you shoot at (but fail to kill someone) who then is finished off by NPCs (concord / gate guns) a killmail is still generated, I doubt it would be hard for this to be coded.
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BeanBagKing
Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation
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Posted - 2009.10.12 17:54:00 -
[69]
I agree it's a broken game mechanic. I don't really look down on those that use it, I probably would to rather than see a 2 Tril ISK loss on my killboard. However, I can recognize that having a way for cap ships to escape getting destroyed nearly every time (sure, they still lose the ISK, but insurance will make up for it and much is denied to the attacker). If someone is capable of trapping and destroying your cap ship, or any ship for that matter, then they should be allowed at least a fair chance at getting the killmail from it.
Personally I like the idea of a ship dealing damage to itself after two minutes (in bursts, to calculate final blow). The bursts of damage increase in frequency/strength as time goes on, increasing chances of him dealing the final blow and getting the killmail (or he can just try to time the first one right). Then he can hoard the killmail so nobody can see it. The aggressors can try to hunt down the KM and hope he has auto upload to battle clinic turned on or something, but they would still get the loot as though he had died normally. If they are dealing enough damage or the cap pilot waits too long, then someone else gets final blow and receives the KM.
A little complicated, but just my take on it trying to make both sides happy. It would probably be easier to go with the "If your scrammed you can't SD" or "If you have aggro timer you can't SD". Personally I'd be down for either of those as well. End result is I agree this is broken.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.13 23:35:00 -
[70]
If the attacker didn't lose anything, then the target wouldn't bother with the self-destruct, they'd derive some satisfaction from making the enemy expend ammo and dedicate time and effort to killing them. It's obvious that both parties acknowledge the value of the killmail in that situation, and a button you can push that allows you to claim the prize, or deny your opponent, is no good. I like the idea that the destruct-generates a mail, which is released via API-enabled killboard tracking, and a tactical decision about the destruct itself should be introduced. Killing cap recharge, or offlining modules, or disabling targetting, or whatever side-effect seems appropriate would make the big red button something to think twice about, just like warp stabs got a penalty. Crusades: Security Status |
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
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Posted - 2009.10.14 08:21:00 -
[71]
Reggie is spot-on. There should be some sort of value to self-destructing, so I think generating a kill-mail but destroying loot is a valid compromise. One possibility for offsetting this for the guy scuttling his ship would be to generate a really high amount of heat over all slots, which damages all modules over time (and uses a mechanism already in the game for simplicity). ______________ Join the Family |
Zoloft Rx
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Posted - 2009.10.14 08:42:00 -
[72]
White, you're my hero!!
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