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Munchees	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:13:00 - [1] (I don't want this to turn into a political debate or a debate over 9/11 conspiracy theories. Leave your ideas on government and stuff OUT) I was doing some reading on the war in Afghanistan, and learned something that shocked me: While most Americans and Brits agree with the war in Afghanistan, most of the international community does not. Since EVE online has a worldwide community, I'd like to know why a lot of you disagree with the war there. I'm going to list some of the reasons the article I read said, and I'm going to give my view on these reasons. The first reason I read is that the international community feels that instead of military action the US should have done legal action, by extraditing the people responsible out of Afghanistan. I feel that that is unrealistic. Do you really think the Taliban or Osama bin Laden would willingly give themselves up? Another thing is human rights abuses. Yes, the crap that went on (and might still be going on) in secret military prisons is horrible. But if we were to leave Afghanistan today, they would have another civil war, and if they Taliban win that, they will have more human rights abuses in one year than the amount of human rights abuses in the US during the past 8 years. Just because you don't live there doesn't mean it's wrong. An example of this is North Korea. The UN has placed all kinds of embargos and trade restrictions to North Korea, but North Korea doesn't listen. There are times when military force is necessary. Another reason to leave is casualties. I'll say this: People die in war. Yes, it's horrible. If war could end everywhere tomorrow I would be in full support of its end. 1186 have died in Afghanistan. Between 40 to 72 million people died in WW2. I'm not suggesting that if we left Afghanistan terrorist attacks would become more frequent and the end of the world would be upon us, but compared to the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan is much more justifiable. The Taliban would probably be gone if not for the Iraq War. I feel that anyone who lives in the Western world feels the value of civil liberties. If the Taliban take over Afghanistan again would deprive those people living there of human rights.
Don ZOLA Caldari Vale Tudo.	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:50:00 - [2] americas drug factory. there will never be peace there, as then usa troops would have to leave. who would then control the market. and its their strategic spot close to russia.
Munchees Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Don ZOLA americas drug factory. there will never be peace there, as then usa troops would have to leave. who would then control the market. and its their strategic spot close to russia. even if there is peace there we could still keep troops there. we have troops in germany, south korea, japan, saudi arabia, and kuwait to name a few
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:11:00 - [4] Is this a thread in which you justify all your wrongdoins by saying you don't want this turning into some 'conspiracy theory' debate? Quote: the international community What is this 'international community'? Quote: they will have more human rights abuses in one year than the amount of human rights abuses in the US during the past 8 years Thank you for admitting your country has been carrying out crimes against humanity. When are we going to hold those responsible accountable? Quote: North Korea What do you know about North Korea other than what you have seen on FOX and CNN? Quote: North Korea doesn't listen Those stupid North Koreans, they never listen when we tell them we'll bomb them to smitherines. Quote: There are times when military force is necessary. Like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. How is that working out for you? Quote: Another reason to leave is casualties. I'll say this: People die in war. More people dead since the invasion of Iraq than under Sadam's entire reign. GREAT SUCCESS!! Quote: 1186 have died in Afghanistan Those peasant Afghani's don't count LOL. they're not as important as us anyway, so, we won't count them in the total death toll. Quote: Afghanistan terrorist attacks Who funded the Taliban again? Was it daddy Bush? Quote: the War in Afghanistan is much more justifiable Oh really? You're telling me that Osama Bin Laden is now wanted by the FBI for the 11/9 attacks? Quote: The Taliban would probably be gone if not for the Iraq War They'd be gone where? On holiday to Hawaii? Quote: Western world feels the value of civil liberties I, too, like the Patriot Act and the way people are harrassed and abused at airports. I had a friend who was interviewed every fifteen minutes at LA for six hours because he was born of Pakistani parents. The two greatest threats to world security are the USA, and it's vassals, and Israel. Israel bombed women and children hiding at a UN school, then has the ordacity to report those pathetic missiles fired by some wannabe's in Gaza to the same UN. Go learn something before you poast such nonsense, your ignorance is more than palpable.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Munchees Originally by: Don ZOLA americas drug factory. there will never be peace there, as then usa troops would have to leave. who would then control the market. and its their strategic spot close to russia. even if there is peace there we could still keep troops there. we have troops in germany, south korea, japan, saudi arabia, and kuwait to name a few Yeah, so why not expand the empire and increase deficit?
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Don ZOLA americas drug factory. there will never be peace there, as then usa troops would have to leave. who would then control the market. and its their strategic spot close to russia. Opium production jumped by over a 1000% after the invasion of Afghanistan and the crops are not being irradicated but that's not what the invasion was about. It was about the pipeline being that's been built to bypass Russia.
Glarion Garnier Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 22/07/2009 08:42:37 The op surely works for ISisRaEl secret services or pentagon .. he is too clearly stating all propaganda terms that have been programmed onto general sheep herds via private mainstream media. Am i wrong? your average 25 year olds dont go on forums promoting excuses for war .. or do they ? he uses the international community ... that btw. basically means the anglo american establishment... that hardly is international in a sense of a organisation that spans the whole world. Go push your horrible propaganda on some other forum TOOL _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
LUH 3472	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:48:00 - [8] Edited by: LUH 3472 on 22/07/2009 08:57:17 back to the roots america thats what id say i not to long red a quote from bush which basicly said: oil is trouble we need to gtfo man was i astonished no idea how true that is or whatever but yeah back to the roots thomas jefferson benjamin frankolin george washington etc oh and about afghanistan well if the poeple have basic income, a home and garden just the basic stuff then there will be no ground for taliban at all so why we dont do that because some poeple want themselfs a golden nose and they sit in our own ranks
Sazkyen	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:50:00 - [9] Aside with this ****. You want to know why it is occoupied? Here's your answer, and everything else is bs: "Despite a lengthy history of small-scale mining of gems, gold, copper, and coal, systematic exploration of Afghanistan's mineral resources did not begin until the 1960s. In the 1970s Afghanistan was discovered to have a wide variety of mineral resources, but only coal, iron ore, copper ore, and gemstones were targeted for development. Natural gas fields are scattered throughout much of Afghanistan. Recent analysis by the United States Geological Survey has indicated significant unexploited oil reserves in the north as well. After their invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, the Soviets endeavored to export some of the country's resources to the USSR. Natural gas, for example, was exported by pipeline across the Amu Darya into the USSR in the 1980s. Ongoing hostilities, however, severely hampered this effort and finally cut off the natural gas export. By the mid-1990s there was little mineral or oil and gas extraction. " Linkage
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:01:00 - [10] Well this thread sure developed a bad case of *****ed quickly. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00*
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Munchees Originally by: Don ZOLA americas drug factory. there will never be peace there, as then usa troops would have to leave. who would then control the market. and its their strategic spot close to russia. even if there is peace there we could still keep troops there. we have troops in germany, south korea, japan, saudi arabia, and kuwait to name a few We have embassies in every country, and there are Marines in those embassies. So we have troops in every country! Except that an embassy is sovereign US soil so we in fact don't have troops in every country which would mean head kerplodes And did you know that this is in fact Surfin's Plunderbunny's forum alt? It's official!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:24:00 - [12] Were in now so how and why is no longer important. What is important is the fact that while UK troops are attacked 4 times more than even the Americans our government is refusing to cough up the cash to supply them with the troops and equipment the army wants. Not too sure if the US media have even picked up on how angry our generals are...
SeismicForce Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:52:00 - [13] International troops have no business in Afganistan, or anywhere else for that matter. What the world refuses to understand, is that the idea of democracy just isn't applicable to every nation in the world. They should bloody well stop sticking their money-crazed noses into places where it doesn't belong. Originally by: Allisie In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.07.22 10:05:00 - [14] In estonia it's seen as occupation on peoples level. Ofc people are different, some of them take our goverment official standpoint at face value and also believe it is indeed "war on terror" and that we are indeed liberating those guys. Most people remember soviet occupation in there and there is many veterans from that era still around tho. It was messy. That out of the way we do have troops in there who do die sometimes bcos we are scared of russia. The tought process goes somewhat that if we will die and bleed for NATO programme in afghanistan and iraq they are willing to do the same for us when the need rises. I have niece in there in Helmand. It is indeed messy. Again. I personally do not think NATO would do a lot more than strong protest if russia really wanted to do war on estonia. Then again from my standpoint I do not really think it's in russias interest to do that to estonia. They just use baltic states as convinient "enemy" for their internal politic agendas. It's always easier to find an enemy who is reason of all things wrong in world than to do actually something about internal issues.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 10:48:00 - [15] Originally by: SeismicForce What the world refuses to understand, is that the idea of democracy just isn't applicable to every nation in the world. They should bloody well stop sticking their money-crazed noses into places where it doesn't belong. First of all democracy is an illusion. If it wasn't Bliar, Berlusconi, Aznar, Balkenende and all the other little children going along with the US would have been strung up for their crimes against humanity. One and a half million people marched through London, the police tried to stop them through harrassment and arrests. Bliar still went to war. When people are offered the possibility of 'liberation' they look at the costs. Iran has had a professional army ready to liberate the country and free the people but the US won't give them permission because the Mojahedin won't allow the US to have a permanent base in Iran, nor will they allow Western oil firms to do to Iran what they're doing to Iraq: plundering it. Why is the US so interested in Tibet and why are they funding the Dalai Lama? Could it be because of oil? Why has the CIA been sent to Burma? Because of the gas the Chinese are buying? Why isn't the US and it's little kiddy colonies interested in Zimbabwe? Lack of oil? Why is the US so strongly supporting Taiwan? Just to **** China off and play a little Imperialist for fun? Why is the US violating every single treaty that was signed with Russia post Cold War? Same reason as above? When you've realised that Empires don't do anything other than for their own good and don't care about anyone but themselves and their corporate friends, you will have realised that the West does not have the moral high ground on anything or any conflict. If the West was so nice they'd help the millions dying in Zimbabwe, Sudan or all the other poor countries on the planet, instead of plundering them. But they're too busy filling their pockets to care. Democracy and freedom are applicable, the world just isn't as stupid as the West would like them to be. If they were no Iraqi would have taken up arms against the Coalition of the Warcriminals.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia	Posted - 2009.07.22 11:11:00 - [16] Our Dutch troops are only there because our goverment likes to suck up to the US so much. The population opinion is in favour of GTFO and always was, like anyone with the ability to think. * Is not seeing a captured Bin Laden. * Laughs at US stance on human rights abuses. You gotta be ***ting me. Epic credibility fail dude. Epic counting fail. "but compared to the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan is much more justifiable." <- Incredibly there is something in your post that is not laughable and I actually agree with. Reality : You wanna fix the economy ? Go to war. --- Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Kurfin	Posted - 2009.07.22 11:53:00 - [17] We've created these problems for ourselves because we meddled in the business of other countries. For example the US armed the Afghan fighters because they were fighting the Russians, who at the time were the enemy, had they not done that the Taliban is unlikely to have become so strong. I still feel going into Afghanistan was probably the right thing to do, the Taliban did pose a very serious threat to those of us in the west. But it would have been unnecessary if we hadn't interfered in the first place. Of course the fact we are there, installed what is perceived as puppet government and the continued deaths of innocent civilians is storing up more trouble for us for the future. Probably the best thing we can do to improve our safety is to reduce our dependence on oil, since that is what inspires our leaders to interfere in other countries affairs. That and get the UN into Israel/Palestine to stop the two sides killing each other, maybe after a decade or 3 of enforced peace they can come to an arrangement themselves which will hold.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:28:00 - [18] I would say the invasion of Afghanistan was justified, although the long occupation and interferance is not, nor was the invasion of Iraq. Sitting in these countries has just increased the acts of terrorism as of lately. Civil war likely to happen if we left? Yes well civil war must happen eventually. People need to fight for freedom, not be handed it otherwise it has no value. Countries need to be left to develop by themselves, and the people to take action into their own hands. And as someone else said, america needs to go back to its roots. That is, isolationism.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Kurfin the Taliban did pose a very serious threat to those of us in the west. And what was this threat exactly? A bunch of armed goat herders sitting in a cave calculating by hand that which would take thousands of computer hours? If that's it then I suggest we start waging nuclear war on eachother. Or do you still believe that pilots, who were trained by the CIA, flying planes that didn't exist, whose intact passports were found when those planes turned to dust, were actually from Bin Lala's terror network? How deep dillusions run. And even if they did carry out said attacks, it was justified. Unless you are saying that they should not exact revenge on the West for the suffering they were caused when they were dumped when the Russians retreated. Once you know the truth of what really goes on you will cease to make such comments, because it is the West that poses a serious threat to the world, not the other way round.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Munchees While most Americans and Brits agree with the war in Afghanistan, most of the international community does not. According to a recent poll, only 47% of the UK population aupports the war. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Northern Fall Minmatar Guild Exploration Guild Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:25:00 - [21] The longer foreign soldiers in Afganistan stay, the angrier the people will become. ffs, people are dieing on both sides in an unwinnable invasion. Get out.
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:51:00 - [22] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 22/07/2009 13:56:51 Originally by: Super Whopper And what was this threat exactly? A bunch of armed goat herders sitting in a cave calculating by hand that which would take thousands of computer hours? If that's it then I suggest we start waging nuclear war on eachother. Or do you still believe that pilots, who were trained by the CIA, flying planes that didn't exist, whose intact passports were found when those planes turned to dust, were actually from Bin Lala's terror network? Oh FFS, not this bull**** again... Enough with the tinfoil hat idiocy. There is overwhelming and undeniable proof that the "planes that didn't exist" did in fact exist, and some pretty compelling evidence that the pilots were suicidal religious fanatics. And as for the passports, try learning a bit about how crashes work before you post any more stupid comments? On the other hand, there is little or no even remotely credible evidence that the CIA (or any other branch of the US government) had any direct involvement in the attacks, there is little or no motive for them to be involved, and even if they had the motive, lack of morality, and a magical super-secret-leak-proof conspiracy, any plausible attack by the CIA would be nothing like the suicide hijackings on 9/11 (hint: truck bomb >>>>> suicide plane unless you can't get a truck bomb). As for the rest, the previous barbaric religious lunatics running the country deserved to be overthrown for the good of their people. Even if 9/11 had never happened, I wouldn't have felt even the slightest bit of regret if the US had invaded anyway and killed all of them. My only complaint is that instead of doing the job right, the US decided to start a second war in Iraq and ignore the existing one in Afghanistan, allowing the situation to slip out of control. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:54:00 - [23] Predicting this thread will end well
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:40:00 - [24] I am a Brit and I am pretty ambivalent about it. You say that we were correct to go in to get UBL but we (somewhat predictably perhaps? It seems laughably ill informed to suppose we'd get him in retrospect. Maybe I'm wrong there) utterly failed in that task. You mention the Taliban but they were never the main goal. We just wanted them out because they supported AQ. They were there being thoroughly repugnant for quite some little while before the WTC attacks and we were doing nothing. Point of interest they were only in power because of various other countries ****ing around with Afghanistan. I think I read somewhere they got the funding instead of more moderate types because the CIA liked the serious cut of their gib. That doesn't mean it was a bad thing to remove them. I am very happy to see them gone and very happy to see their members rotting away in various detainment camps but it's oversimplistic to say "There were these bad guys, we removed them". Human rights abuses by us... two wrongs does not make a right. We can and should do better. If we're going to claim to represent a set of values and standards we should actually represent them. And again, the world is full of repulsive little dictatorships where that sort of thing is common place. If I had but three wishes one of them would be for all the perpetrators of those things to wake up with their throats slit tomorrow morning. But, since we don't invade all those places is it really a sound justification of invading in this case? But all that said we kind of have to stay till the situation is stable now because if we don't we've just made the situation worse. Again. So I'm not pro-war (really, who is? wars are pretty bad) but I don't think we can just leave the country to it now.
Butt Sexington	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Butt Sexington on 22/07/2009 14:48:11 i say we just glass the entire planet and start over ====================== Arvalds temporary forum posting alt
Drunk Driver Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:19:00 - [26] Obvious political thread is obvious....
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Oh FFS, not this bull**** again... Enough with the tinfoil hat idiocy. There is overwhelming and undeniable proof that the "planes that didn't exist" did in fact exist, and some pretty compelling evidence that the pilots were suicidal religious fanatics. And as for the passports, try learning a bit about how crashes work before you post any more stupid comments? On the other hand, there is little or no even remotely credible evidence that the CIA (or any other branch of the US government) had any direct involvement in the attacks, there is little or no motive for them to be involved, and even if they had the motive, lack of morality, and a magical super-secret-leak-proof conspiracy, any plausible attack by the CIA would be nothing like the suicide hijackings on 9/11 (hint: truck bomb >>>>> suicide plane unless you can't get a truck bomb). As for the rest, the previous barbaric religious lunatics running the country deserved to be overthrown for the good of their people. Even if 9/11 had never happened, I wouldn't have felt even the slightest bit of regret if the US had invaded anyway and killed all of them. My only complaint is that instead of doing the job right, the US decided to start a second war in Iraq and ignore the existing one in Afghanistan, allowing the situation to slip out of control. I suggest you contact the FBI and tell them to correct the information on this page. Kerosine burns hot enough to weaken and melt steele but not passports The only tangible proof that exists is that those four Mossad agents were celebrating when the first plane hit. But hey, it's all in my head! The 'lapping up lies' is strong in you, keep at it.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Drunk Driver Obvious troll thread is obvious.... Fixed for you.
goodby4u Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:42:00 - [29] Edited by: goodby4u on 22/07/2009 15:44:55 Hmm so eve forums syndrome took another thread before it came of age. In this manner aswell.. Guy brings forth interesting points and asks some well thought out questions, second guy avoids all points and makes a sweeping generalization, third guy trolls and pushes us one step closer to a political debate... Then finally an almighty game mod comes in and bashes the thread shut. But as for the guy that said we are in afghanistan for both oil and proximity: 1)Battling for resources is something that man did throughout history and will surely keep doing, however, to assume that is the only reason or even a reason at all for invading is in a sense problematic as oil prices sky rocketed for the duration of our being in both iraq and afghanistan, so either we did something incredibly stupid in the process of getting the resources or it is not a war for resources at all. 2)Proximity, you are indeed correct but incorrect as far as which country, if you look at a map both iraq and afghanistan basically flank the country of iran, and while that may not be the only reason for our invasion I do believe it is a factor. Ofcourse the war in iraq also gave us a doorway to put our fleets both in and around the persian gulf and thus it is also helpful in this manner aswell.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.07.22 16:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Super Whopper on 22/07/2009 16:04:20 Originally by: goodby4u Guy brings forth interesting points and asks some well thought out questions Backing yourself doesn't make you look any more credible and if you're not OP then you just backed the same lies and propaganda that you've been fed all these years. Must taste good because you keep lapping it up. That was my last post in this threat.

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