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Ethik Snomis
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Posted - 2009.07.25 06:11:00 -
[1]
When are players in a mission going to be allowed to fire on salvage looters without being punished by Concord. We expend time and money on ammunition only for these rats to appear and rob us blind without any cost to themselves.
We should have the right to autofleet them and fire and destroy. It is becoming such a pain that I regularly turn missions in without completing them rather than let these people get fat off my efforts.
I am sorry if you have heard this moan before, but many players are getting really ****ed off, just look at the chat in local. 
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2009.07.25 08:26:00 -
[2]
I suggest moving outside of the main mission hubs.
Also read the previous responses from CCP.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
Endemic Aggression
Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.25 08:44:00 -
[3]
can we have one hi sec system altered as low sec every time some furry bear/troll posts a thread like this?
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Khoda Khan
Minmatar
Zantiu-Braun Corporation
Zantiu-Braun Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.25 12:08:00 -
[4]
Way back when, at the dawn of time, CCP introduced the wonderful jetcans that miners know and love today. But unlike today, back then there was no aggression flagging mechanism if someone came along and took something out of the container. There was nothing that the miner could do other than whine and moan here on the forums (and more often than not, in local also). CCP's stance was that the jetcan was considered trash that you had tossed out. If I recall correctly, CCP devs also mentioned more than once that they had no plans to ever change that.
The miners however were not daunted by the devGods reluctance to change the mechanic so that they could fire on thieves. They rallied, unionized, and even sacrificed virgin asteroids to the devGods. And the devGods heard their pleas and one day the jetcans were changed so that if someone stole from them, they flagged aggression against the can owner. Miners rejoiced, heaped praise upon the devGods and then... and then they proceeded to complain about the ore thieves blowing their little mining ships into little pieces.
CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one. The contents of a wreck however, belong to the mission owner. The system as it is now works pretty well I think. Having no experience as a ninja salvager nor dealing with ninja salvagers as a mission runner I can only offer a few random thoughts on the matter.
If wrecks flagged aggression when they were salvaged by anyone other than the mission runner it could lead to a lot more nice faction and faction fit BS finding their way onto killboards as the mission runners, like the miners before them, attempt to take vengeance on the big bad salvagers (thieves). I think it would make for a lot of laughs myself. However, I also understand that a lot of ninja salvagers, unlike can flippers, actually salvage for profit, and would probably be unhappy with a change like this. (There's no profit in stealing ore, it's merely a method of baiting someone into attacking.)
System as it is works fine, though if history is any judge of CCP's future actions you'll get what you want at some point. Just rally your fellow mission runners and get to calling for wreck reform here on the forums. Make your voices heard! Just don't be surprised if what you get isn't really what you actually want. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.07.25 12:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2009 12:14:45
To the OP: It is very simple. You are under the (severely mistaken) impression that they're 'your' wrecks. They're not!
 Originally by: CCP Prism X
Why is stealing salvage OK?
It's not.
It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.25 12:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kerfira
Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja.
This.
I have been doing this ever since i first did a level 4. I can't belive how stupid some folks are in regards to this tho, its like they just can't think, and just whine whine whine.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.25 13:02:00 -
[7]
im not willing to write all the stuff again I wrote 1000 times already, except for a big STFU
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.07.25 13:28:00 -
[8]
How about thinking things through before you post?
1. There are dozens of other threads
2. If you think they're ****ed off now, imagine what it'll be like when the whines turn to "omg he came back in a battleship and wtfpwned my CNR".
Look what happened when they introduced can aggro. Dead miners everywhere, and you really think this'll be any different?
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.07.25 14:15:00 -
[9]
but what if you arent using the wrecks, then alot of good cash would be lost forever
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Galmarr
Gallente
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.25 15:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ethik Snomis
When are players in a mission going to be allowed to fire on salvage looters without being punished by Concord. We expend time and money on ammunition only for these rats to appear and rob us blind without any cost to themselves.
We should have the right to autofleet them and fire and destroy. It is becoming such a pain that I regularly turn missions in without completing them rather than let these people get fat off my efforts.
I am sorry if you have heard this moan before, but many players are getting really ****ed off, just look at the chat in local.
I bet you are missioning in Dodixie. Big mistake. Its home to the biggest ninja salvaging corp in the game. There are plenty of other hubs to mission out of. You can continue to grind loads of isk somewhere else without hassle.
Its not a big enough problem for CCP to be concerned with.
Greedy carebears.
Ninjas rule Dodixie
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Grumples McGee
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Posted - 2009.07.25 15:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Khoda Khan
CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one.
Not true.
Try using a tractor beam on a wreck and tell me what message it gives you.
Wrecks are owned by the person who did the killing. The fact that salvaging doesn't flag you is an oversight.
Frankly, as a pirate, I wish it *did* flag me. Salvaging wrecks should be another excuse for PvP. It has all the hallmarks of a PvP event. It makes no sense that CCP continues to allow wreck salvaging to be a purely PvE affair.
I would support this change for the same reason I support flagging people for jetcan flipping:
It brings more PvP to the game.
This is good!
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Octoven
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:08:00 -
[12]
I just usually blow mine up as I pop them, if I want to salvage I keep one handy before starting a mish say in the same system. Its slow and tedious and may even reduce the amount of missions you run a day, but its is a bit more effective then just giving them to someone else.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Grumples McGee
Originally by: Khoda Khan
CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one.
Not true.
what? You say CCP lies??
Originally by: Grumples McGee
Try using a tractor beam on a wreck and tell me what message it gives you.
Wrecks are owned by the person who did the killing. The fact that salvaging doesn't flag you is an oversight.
you cant tractor them because there is your crappy loot inside. And no, its not oversight, salvage mechanics are confirmed continuously.
The only wrong thing with that is the loot changes its ownership to the killer, it should not.
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Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:35:00 -
[14]
I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage).
Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission.
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None of yet! |
Octoven
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ydyp Ieva
I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage).
Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission.
So basically turn it into something easy for grifs eh? Sounds like glorified mining to me. I think the system is fine as is, you just need to accept that if you can't salvg it then either pop it so they can't or live with the fact they got free salvg.
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Arrs Grazznic
Pawn Sauce
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:51:00 -
[16]
As an old time mission runner, I believe that the system is fine. Get out of the mission hubs and pick a nice out of the way corner of space and you will hardly be troubled.
Cheers,
Arrs
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Bloodie Mary
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:56:00 -
[17]
People were doing missions well before salvaging existed as a profession. There was no complaint that these missions were not giving them a high enough reward, rightly so! Now, with the addition of salvaging as a profession these mission runners seem to believe it is their right to access that salvage, and that they have somehow earnt it?!
Your missions are no different now than they were before this profession was devised. Stop making out that you have somehow earnt these wrecks. They are just a natural by-product of what you were already doing. If someone gets to them before you, you should speed the heck up.
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Arous Drephius
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Posted - 2009.07.27 15:58:00 -
[18]
Oh noes, people are "stealing" your salvage.
Oh noes.
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.07.27 16:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
As an old time mission runner, I believe that the system is fine. Get out of the mission hubs and pick a nice out of the way corner of space and you will hardly be troubled.
Cheers,
Arrs
finally ONE that gets it \0/
Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.07.27 16:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ydyp Ieva
I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage).
Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission.
ok you goto get this through your thick head first salvage dosnt belong to you so you cant call them thiefs
"lame zero risk income" strange that reminds me of something els i wonder what it could be can you guess
now go read up on the dev blogs/game mach and prolly visit ironfleet.com to hammer it in
now if you cant get to said salvage fast enough as it blongs to no one its your problem you still get the mission reward/lp/bountys isnt that good enough for you already.
and just in case that didnt work lets say you find a 50 ú/$/whatever i dont know where your from on the street what would you do take it or wait around for the original owner to come along and take it
Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.07.27 16:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kerfira
Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja.
Right cause no one EVER ninja's anywhere else. I haven't even posted on this topic in months and it's still here on the first page ever time I log in. No, not a problem at all. No wai.
And to counter your ever popular dev quotes, here are two older ones:
Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59
We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus.
Reported by CCP Oveur | 2007.03.19 18:46:07
You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK!
Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions. You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
It seems to me that salvage was very much intended to be "extra loot" to make up for the bounty nerf. In which case it is very much theft to take it.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:00:00 -
[22]
From the last quote:
Quote:
You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
e.g. salvaging. You cannot deny that salvaging doesn't increase the average missionrunner's income. If you mission away from a major hub, it will do so a lot more.
More recent devquotes have mentioned that they are fine with the current system.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 17:27:37
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
From the last quote:
Quote:
You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
e.g. salvaging. You cannot deny that salvaging doesn't increase the average missionrunner's income. If you mission away from a major hub, it will do so a lot more.
More recent devquotes have mentioned that they are fine with the current system.
Salvaging isn't the only mini profession he's talking about. There's also scanning, hacking, archeology, rig manufacturing, ect. In this case he means rig manufacturing. How would you " simply sell directly the stuff to other players" if you didn't frist salvage it? They meant salvage to be extra loot from the ships you destroy.
And yeah there have been more recent quotes but that further makes my point. They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft?
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
And yeah there have been more recent quotes but that further makes my point. They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft?
Because they want rigs to be cheap.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:47:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Because they want rigs to be cheap.
Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact?
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kel Nissa
Quote:
Because they want rigs to be cheap.
Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact?
Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.07.27 17:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Kel Nissa
Quote:
Because they want rigs to be cheap.
Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact?
Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners.
BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it.
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.27 18:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it.
Posta a link to proove it that most of ninja salvagers to this for griefing not because it's actualy more profitable than missioning itself.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Galvatine
Caldari
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.07.27 18:07:00 -
[29]
It's not your salvage.
Go someplace less crowded to do your missions or get a maurauder, it is really that simple.
If you want the flag, I would suppport it, but be careful what you wish for....
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.07.27 19:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Kel Nissa
Quote:
Because they want rigs to be cheap.
Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact?
Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners.
BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it.
You're both right.
Salvage ninjas do salvage a lot of salvage that wouldn't otherwise be salvaged. Especially since this profession really took off starting about a year ago, they have dumped salvage onto the markets at a huge rate. If they were stopped, prices would jump a great deal. A contributing factor is that mission-runners who know what they're doing don't salvage. You get much better ISK/hour by continually running missions.
On the other hand, salvage ninjas also collect LOLs and fuel their ships with carebear tears. In addition to being fun, this activity creates a public good (tears, which are entertaining to all in local) as well as adding salvage to the markets and encouraging mission-runners to continue running missions (which in turn increases the amount of salvage to be ninja'd).
-/ the fighting republicans /- |
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