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Ethik Snomis	Posted - 2009.07.25 06:11:00 - [1] When are players in a mission going to be allowed to fire on salvage looters without being punished by Concord. We expend time and money on ammunition only for these rats to appear and rob us blind without any cost to themselves. We should have the right to autofleet them and fire and destroy. It is becoming such a pain that I regularly turn missions in without completing them rather than let these people get fat off my efforts. I am sorry if you have heard this moan before, but many players are getting really ****ed off, just look at the chat in local.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.07.25 08:26:00 - [2] I suggest moving outside of the main mission hubs. Also read the previous responses from CCP.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.25 08:44:00 - [3] can we have one hi sec system altered as low sec every time some furry bear/troll posts a thread like this?
Khoda Khan Minmatar Zantiu-Braun Corporation Zantiu-Braun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.25 12:08:00 - [4] Way back when, at the dawn of time, CCP introduced the wonderful jetcans that miners know and love today. But unlike today, back then there was no aggression flagging mechanism if someone came along and took something out of the container. There was nothing that the miner could do other than whine and moan here on the forums (and more often than not, in local also). CCP's stance was that the jetcan was considered trash that you had tossed out. If I recall correctly, CCP devs also mentioned more than once that they had no plans to ever change that. The miners however were not daunted by the devGods reluctance to change the mechanic so that they could fire on thieves. They rallied, unionized, and even sacrificed virgin asteroids to the devGods. And the devGods heard their pleas and one day the jetcans were changed so that if someone stole from them, they flagged aggression against the can owner. Miners rejoiced, heaped praise upon the devGods and then... and then they proceeded to complain about the ore thieves blowing their little mining ships into little pieces. CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one. The contents of a wreck however, belong to the mission owner. The system as it is now works pretty well I think. Having no experience as a ninja salvager nor dealing with ninja salvagers as a mission runner I can only offer a few random thoughts on the matter. If wrecks flagged aggression when they were salvaged by anyone other than the mission runner it could lead to a lot more nice faction and faction fit BS finding their way onto killboards as the mission runners, like the miners before them, attempt to take vengeance on the big bad salvagers (thieves). I think it would make for a lot of laughs myself. However, I also understand that a lot of ninja salvagers, unlike can flippers, actually salvage for profit, and would probably be unhappy with a change like this. (There's no profit in stealing ore, it's merely a method of baiting someone into attacking.) System as it is works fine, though if history is any judge of CCP's future actions you'll get what you want at some point. Just rally your fellow mission runners and get to calling for wreck reform here on the forums. Make your voices heard! Just don't be surprised if what you get isn't really what you actually want.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.07.25 12:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Kerfira on 25/07/2009 12:14:45 To the OP: It is very simple. You are under the (severely mistaken) impression that they're 'your' wrecks. They're not! Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.25 12:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Kerfira Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja. This. I have been doing this ever since i first did a level 4. I can't belive how stupid some folks are in regards to this tho, its like they just can't think, and just whine whine whine. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.25 13:02:00 - [7] im not willing to write all the stuff again I wrote 1000 times already, except for a big STFU
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.07.25 13:28:00 - [8] How about thinking things through before you post? 1. There are dozens of other threads 2. If you think they're ****ed off now, imagine what it'll be like when the whines turn to "omg he came back in a battleship and wtfpwned my CNR". Look what happened when they introduced can aggro. Dead miners everywhere, and you really think this'll be any different?
ark maphar	Posted - 2009.07.25 14:15:00 - [9] but what if you arent using the wrecks, then alot of good cash would be lost forever
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.25 15:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Ethik Snomis When are players in a mission going to be allowed to fire on salvage looters without being punished by Concord. We expend time and money on ammunition only for these rats to appear and rob us blind without any cost to themselves. We should have the right to autofleet them and fire and destroy. It is becoming such a pain that I regularly turn missions in without completing them rather than let these people get fat off my efforts. I am sorry if you have heard this moan before, but many players are getting really ****ed off, just look at the chat in local. I bet you are missioning in Dodixie. Big mistake. Its home to the biggest ninja salvaging corp in the game. There are plenty of other hubs to mission out of. You can continue to grind loads of isk somewhere else without hassle. Its not a big enough problem for CCP to be concerned with. Greedy carebears. Ninjas rule Dodixie
Grumples McGee	Posted - 2009.07.25 15:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Khoda Khan CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one. Not true. Try using a tractor beam on a wreck and tell me what message it gives you. Wrecks are owned by the person who did the killing. The fact that salvaging doesn't flag you is an oversight. Frankly, as a pirate, I wish it did flag me. Salvaging wrecks should be another excuse for PvP. It has all the hallmarks of a PvP event. It makes no sense that CCP continues to allow wreck salvaging to be a purely PvE affair. I would support this change for the same reason I support flagging people for jetcan flipping: It brings more PvP to the game. This is good!
Octoven	Posted - 2009.07.27 14:08:00 - [12] I just usually blow mine up as I pop them, if I want to salvage I keep one handy before starting a mish say in the same system. Its slow and tedious and may even reduce the amount of missions you run a day, but its is a bit more effective then just giving them to someone else.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.27 14:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Grumples McGee Originally by: Khoda Khan CCP's stance today is that wrecks are trash, and thus owned by no one. Not true. what? You say CCP lies?? Originally by: Grumples McGee Try using a tractor beam on a wreck and tell me what message it gives you. Wrecks are owned by the person who did the killing. The fact that salvaging doesn't flag you is an oversight. you cant tractor them because there is your crappy loot inside. And no, its not oversight, salvage mechanics are confirmed continuously. The only wrong thing with that is the loot changes its ownership to the killer, it should not.
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.07.27 14:35:00 - [14] I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage). Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission. ---------------------------------- None of yet!
Octoven	Posted - 2009.07.27 14:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Ydyp Ieva I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage). Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission. So basically turn it into something easy for grifs eh? Sounds like glorified mining to me. I think the system is fine as is, you just need to accept that if you can't salvg it then either pop it so they can't or live with the fact they got free salvg.
Arrs Grazznic Pawn Sauce	Posted - 2009.07.27 14:51:00 - [16] As an old time mission runner, I believe that the system is fine. Get out of the mission hubs and pick a nice out of the way corner of space and you will hardly be troubled. Cheers, Arrs
Bloodie Mary	Posted - 2009.07.27 15:56:00 - [17] People were doing missions well before salvaging existed as a profession. There was no complaint that these missions were not giving them a high enough reward, rightly so! Now, with the addition of salvaging as a profession these mission runners seem to believe it is their right to access that salvage, and that they have somehow earnt it?! Your missions are no different now than they were before this profession was devised. Stop making out that you have somehow earnt these wrecks. They are just a natural by-product of what you were already doing. If someone gets to them before you, you should speed the heck up.
Arous Drephius	Posted - 2009.07.27 15:58:00 - [18] Oh noes, people are "stealing" your salvage. Oh noes.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Arrs Grazznic As an old time mission runner, I believe that the system is fine. Get out of the mission hubs and pick a nice out of the way corner of space and you will hardly be troubled. Cheers, Arrs finally ONE that gets it \0/ Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Ydyp Ieva I still don't see any difference to why flipping a can is stealing but salvaging a wreck isn't. Those both systems should be the same, let those that blow up the ship to create the wreck be able to defend it. They soon will learn that a pve ship isn't the best to go pvp with and think before they shoot a salvage thief (if not then it is their own fault of loosing a ship AND salvage). Make the system like it should be for eve: PvP. Instead of how it is now lame zero risk income. It is even safer to ninja salvage then to run a mission. ok you goto get this through your thick head first salvage dosnt belong to you so you cant call them thiefs "lame zero risk income" strange that reminds me of something els i wonder what it could be can you guess now go read up on the dev blogs/game mach and prolly visit ironfleet.com to hammer it in now if you cant get to said salvage fast enough as it blongs to no one its your problem you still get the mission reward/lp/bountys isnt that good enough for you already. and just in case that didnt work lets say you find a 50 ú/$/whatever i dont know where your from on the street what would you do take it or wait around for the original owner to come along and take it Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Kerfira Also, just move out of the main mission hubs, and you'll never see a single ninja. Right cause no one EVER ninja's anywhere else. I haven't even posted on this topic in months and it's still here on the first page ever time I log in. No, not a problem at all. No wai. And to counter your ever popular dev quotes, here are two older ones: Reported by CCP Oveur \| 2006.09.26 12:58:59 We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus. Reported by CCP Oveur \| 2007.03.19 18:46:07 You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK! Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions. You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players. It seems to me that salvage was very much intended to be "extra loot" to make up for the bounty nerf. In which case it is very much theft to take it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:00:00 - [22] From the last quote: Quote: You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players. e.g. salvaging. You cannot deny that salvaging doesn't increase the average missionrunner's income. If you mission away from a major hub, it will do so a lot more. More recent devquotes have mentioned that they are fine with the current system.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:26:00 - [23] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 17:27:37 Originally by: Kahega Amielden From the last quote: Quote: You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players. e.g. salvaging. You cannot deny that salvaging doesn't increase the average missionrunner's income. If you mission away from a major hub, it will do so a lot more. More recent devquotes have mentioned that they are fine with the current system. Salvaging isn't the only mini profession he's talking about. There's also scanning, hacking, archeology, rig manufacturing, ect. In this case he means rig manufacturing. How would you " simply sell directly the stuff to other players" if you didn't frist salvage it? They meant salvage to be extra loot from the ships you destroy. And yeah there have been more recent quotes but that further makes my point. They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft?
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass And yeah there have been more recent quotes but that further makes my point. They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft? Because they want rigs to be cheap. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:47:00 - [25] Quote: Because they want rigs to be cheap. Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact?
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:53:00 - [26] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Because they want rigs to be cheap. Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact? Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Because they want rigs to be cheap. Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact? Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it. Posta a link to proove it that most of ninja salvagers to this for griefing not because it's actualy more profitable than missioning itself. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:07:00 - [29] It's not your salvage. Go someplace less crowded to do your missions or get a maurauder, it is really that simple. If you want the flag, I would suppport it, but be careful what you wish for....
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Valandril Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Because they want rigs to be cheap. Can you prove that there would be a rig pricing impact? Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. BS. Most ninjas salvage for the jollies they get from griefing. There would be little or no impact on the salvage market if there was some kind of defense against it. You're both right. Salvage ninjas do salvage a lot of salvage that wouldn't otherwise be salvaged. Especially since this profession really took off starting about a year ago, they have dumped salvage onto the markets at a huge rate. If they were stopped, prices would jump a great deal. A contributing factor is that mission-runners who know what they're doing don't salvage. You get much better ISK/hour by continually running missions. On the other hand, salvage ninjas also collect LOLs and fuel their ships with carebear tears. In addition to being fun, this activity creates a public good (tears, which are entertaining to all in local) as well as adding salvage to the markets and encouraging mission-runners to continue running missions (which in turn increases the amount of salvage to be ninja'd). -/ the fighting republicans /-
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:14:00 - [31] Quote: Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. Evasive move detected. And on top of that: Your statement above is also suited to prove that flagging will have no market impact.
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. Evasive move detected. And on top of that: Your statement above is also suited to prove that flagging will have no market impact. Flagging would have quite a large market impact, I rather suspect that the bear pve ships of choice would suddenly be enjoying a much higher demand due to the amount getting popped.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:06:00 - [33] "I think that nothing will change." So its my statement vs yours. I hope that mine was simple enough to show you that yours did not prove something.
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:14:00 - [34] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Sure i can but i don't have to, anyone with half a brain can figure out how much less salvage will pour into economy just based on whiners. Evasive move detected. And on top of that: Your statement above is also suited to prove that flagging will have no market impact. Troll detected. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:17:00 - [35] Just another kiddy. And afterwards you start screaming noob or im wrong? Is it so hard to talk about facts? Or is everything which goes against ninja salvaging automatically wrong? Little bit biased.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:45:00 - [36] yay here we go AGAIN \0/ someone get the bubbley Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:11:05 Originally by: Galvatine It's not your salvage. Go someplace less crowded to do your missions or get a maurauder, it is really that simple. If you want the flag, I would suppport it, but be careful what you wish for.... I do mission somewhere else. Somewhere local is around 35-50 at peak times. I still get a ninja every once in a while. As for the Marauder, why would I waste a billion isk on a ship that is marginally better for missions? That's like paying 500-600 mil for a hulk, at current mineral prices. No thanks, I'd rather put the isk toward pvp. Oh and I sooooo DO want the flag. I know exactly what I'm wishing for . That or change accel gates to flag if someone not in your fleet/corp activates it. I also think wrecks should be scannable, but all wrecks on grid should show up as one hit.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:10:00 - [38] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/07/2009 21:09:59 Quote: They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft? Because it's not theft...and there are many viable counters -fit ECCM -Mission in lowsec. -Mission away from hubs
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:14:00 - [39] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/07/2009 21:09:59 Quote: They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft? Because it's not theft...and there are many viable counters -fit ECCM -Mission in lowsec. -Mission away from hubs Listen to this guy, he knows his stuff. But you missed some: -Shoot your wrecks if anyone comes near them -Fit your own Salvager and salvage as you go along -Get an alt/noob to do the above. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/07/2009 21:09:59 Quote: They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft? Because it's not theft...and there are many viable counters -fit ECCM -Mission in lowsec. -Mission away from hubs Wait waht? ECCM? Why in gods name do I need eccm to counter ninjas? I do mission in low sec if I can find a quiet area to do so, I still lose sec status killing people in my mission though. The ninja loses nothing but a cheap ship. In case you hadn't noticed though, It's harder and harder to find a quiet area of low sec. The game universe is filling up fast. Why should I have to go 20-30 jumps aways from my corp just to mission in peace?
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:17:00 - [41] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/07/2009 21:09:59 Quote: They change stuff all the time. Why not a flag for theft? Because it's not theft...and there are many viable counters -fit ECCM -Mission in lowsec. -Mission away from hubs Wait waht? ECCM? Why in gods name do I need eccm to counter ninjas? I do mission in low sec if I can find a quiet area to do so, I still lose sec status killing people in my mission though. The ninja loses nothing but a cheap ship. In case you hadn't noticed though, It's harder and harder to find a quiet area of low sec. The game universe is filling up fast. Why should I have to go 20-30 jumps aways from my corp just to mission in peace? Someone doesn't know their game mechanics ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:20:00 - [42] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:21:29 Originally by: Bibbleibble Someone doesn't know their game mechanics I know my game mechanics very well. Explain to me when I'm ever gonna get hit by ecm from a ninja in high sec.
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:25:00 - [43] For once im going to agree with Jackass. ECCM wtf?
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:29:00 - [44] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:11:05 Originally by: Galvatine It's not your salvage. Go someplace less crowded to do your missions or get a maurauder, it is really that simple. If you want the flag, I would suppport it, but be careful what you wish for.... I do mission somewhere else. Somewhere local is around 35-50 at peak times. I still get a ninja every once in a while. As for the Marauder, why would I waste a billion isk on a ship that is marginally better for missions? That's like paying 500-600 mil for a hulk, at current mineral prices. No thanks, I'd rather put the isk toward pvp. Oh and I sooooo DO want the flag. I know exactly what I'm wishing for . That or change accel gates to flag if someone not in your fleet/corp activates it. I also think wrecks should be scannable, but all wrecks on grid should show up as one hit. I think making the gates flag is going too far, it smacks of WoW instances too much. I for one would hate to see us progress from freedom to lameness. Each to their own, personally when performing the thankless task of missioning I use a maurauder. It tends to keep the ninjas at bay, also you can normally sell them for much more than Jita prices when your done with them so its a bit of a win win situation, you just have to be patient enough to wait a few days for your cash.
Takon Orlani Caldari Heretic Army Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn can we have one hi sec system altered as low sec every time some furry bear/troll posts a thread like this? ROWDY WANTS YOU!!
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:33:00 - [46] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:34:59 Originally by: Galvatine Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:11:05 Originally by: Galvatine It's not your salvage. Go someplace less crowded to do your missions or get a maurauder, it is really that simple. If you want the flag, I would suppport it, but be careful what you wish for.... I do mission somewhere else. Somewhere local is around 35-50 at peak times. I still get a ninja every once in a while. As for the Marauder, why would I waste a billion isk on a ship that is marginally better for missions? That's like paying 500-600 mil for a hulk, at current mineral prices. No thanks, I'd rather put the isk toward pvp. Oh and I sooooo DO want the flag. I know exactly what I'm wishing for . That or change accel gates to flag if someone not in your fleet/corp activates it. I also think wrecks should be scannable, but all wrecks on grid should show up as one hit. I think making the gates flag is going too far, it smacks of WoW instances too much. I for one would hate to see us progress from freedom to lameness. Each to their own, personally when performing the thankless task of missioning I use a maurauder. It tends to keep the ninjas at bay, also you can normally sell them for much more than Jita prices when your done with them so its a bit of a win win situation, you just have to be patient enough to wait a few days for your cash. I can respect that. I will forever say there needs to be something more then now in the way of retribution toward ninjas though. It's a pvp game. For the love of all that is pvp let the players handle the ninjas. As CCP Oveur stated in his dev blogs salvage was very much intended as extra loot to make up for lowered bounties from concord. As such it will always be theft in my eyes and appearently in many other peoples' eyes as well.
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.28 10:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:11:05 Originally by: Galvatine It's not your salvage. .... I do mission somewhere else. Somewhere local is around 35-50 at peak times. I still get a ninja every once in a while. Every once in a while? So wheres the BIG problem? Its minor at best or a non-issue! Just mission and be happy
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.28 16:50:00 - [48] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 27/07/2009 21:21:29 Originally by: Bibbleibble Someone doesn't know their game mechanics I know my game mechanics very well. Explain to me when I'm ever gonna get hit by ecm from a ninja in high sec. ECCM increases your sensor strength. The difficulty of probing you down is inversely related to sensor strength. (I believe the exact formula is a ratio of signature resolution to sensor strength.) Ergo, using ECCM makes it harder for ninjas to probe you down. They will just move on to one of the stronger signals they find. -/ the fighting republicans /-
Qwert0	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:01:00 - [49] Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Laxyr Chamsin Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:05:00 - [50] I remember a time where ther WERE NO WRECKS... everything that was left from an NPC rat was the container with loot. So I considere every wreck I can salvage as a plus to the mission income, not as a part of it. Think about it and you might change your mind about this "those wrecks are mine" thing. Lax
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.07.29 07:09:00 - [51] I like the guy who said careful what you wish for :) Think about this for a second. If your missioning and getting all upset that someone is stealing your wreaks, you probably aren't a PVP player. You probably haven't lived in 0.0 and you probably don't like it when someone war decs your corp. Now as yourself, do you really want to shoot back at the pvp pirates?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:38:00 - [52] just turn mission deadspaces into 0.0 like some wise guy suggested once...
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:47:00 - [53] ECCM increases sensor strength which directly affects your ability to be scanned down. The ratio of sensor strength to sig radius(or the other way round) being lower means you are harder to scan. Funny I see carebears in this thread wailing to change game mechanics when they dont know such simple mechanics as this.<< FAIL _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Rawbin Hood Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.29 11:09:00 - [54] well i'd like to see it taken away from any one who hides in an NPC corp, aslong as they can be war dec'ed i see no problem with it. hire a merc corp if you don't have any pilots that know how to fight, which would need the NPC corp fix... gl noobs call noobs noobs, and trolls call trolls trolls... just wanted to add that ◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count)
Rawbin Hood Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.29 11:34:00 - [55] may help if it's all in one ◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count)
Xantiln Abbey.Normal	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:15:00 - [56] I run Level 4 missions and salvage the wrecks for the extra ISK it brings. To make salvaging a profession and not a ninja or pirate plague for mission runners I have the following to say. When I run missions I am playing against the game and not other players. Make the mission space available only to the mission owner and/or fleet members(highsec only). As long as the mission is active the mission owner can return and salvage/loot all wrecks. When the mission is turned in the wrecks/loot will be easy to scan down with no flagging for taking any loot that was left by the mission runner. The wrecks should have a 23 hour survivable in space time and should not be owned by anyone.
teoliit	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:44:00 - [57] Originally by: Xantiln I run Level 4 missions and salvage the wrecks for the extra ISK it brings. To make salvaging a profession and not a ninja or pirate plague for mission runners I have the following to say. When I run missions I am playing against the game and not other players. Make the mission space available only to the mission owner and/or fleet members(highsec only). As long as the mission is active the mission owner can return and salvage/loot all wrecks. When the mission is turned in the wrecks/loot will be easy to scan down with no flagging for taking any loot that was left by the mission runner. The wrecks should have a 23 hour survivable in space time and should not be owned by anyone. You're playing an online game Deal with it
Pirate Tom	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:51:00 - [58] I think that abandoned mission areas should spawn a high-strength magnetometric site that professional salvagers/explorers could scan down to track the rewards. (i.e. if the mission is turned in and is not salvaged, it becomes alot easier for people to find, cuz obviously they care more about mission reward than loot if they turn it in before salvaging.)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:58:00 - [59] To stop salvage theft instantly I vote for making wrecks in highsec impossible to salvage.
Starvaka	Posted - 2009.08.01 17:08:00 - [60] Originally by: Gypsio III To stop salvage theft instantly I vote for making wrecks in highsec impossible to salvage. and a "saftey bubble" for carebears in 0.0
Frau Blueker	Posted - 2009.08.08 16:01:00 - [61] I agree with the notion that it should not be allowed for NPC corps. Ninjas are using NPC alts to do the dirty work because they cant be dec'd. There has to be some kind of recourse to the thieves and PVP is a good one...Might get some Blue salvage from that ;> I have ninja salvaged myself, but always from SWA Isk Farmers named YUIEHDKAL and the like....
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.08 17:40:00 - [62] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 08/08/2009 17:40:09 Originally by: Frau Blueker I agree with the notion that it should not be allowed for NPC corps. Ninjas are using NPC alts to do the dirty work because they cant be dec'd. There has to be some kind of recourse to the thieves and PVP is a good one...Might get some Blue salvage from that ;> I have ninja salvaged myself, but always from SWA Isk Farmers named YUIEHDKAL and the like.... As long as you can't run level 3 or 4 missions in NPC corp or mine in an Exhumer in NPC corp I am all for this. However, salvaging is not thievery and thus shouldn't be treated any differently than missionrunning or mining.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.08.08 20:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Xantiln When I run missions I am playing against the game and not other players. That's what you think. = the GOP is recruiting =
Lukelen	Posted - 2009.08.09 00:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 08/08/2009 17:40:09 Originally by: Frau Blueker I agree with the notion that it should not be allowed for NPC corps. Ninjas are using NPC alts to do the dirty work because they cant be dec'd. There has to be some kind of recourse to the thieves and PVP is a good one...Might get some Blue salvage from that ;> I have ninja salvaged myself, but always from SWA Isk Farmers named YUIEHDKAL and the like.... As long as you can't run level 3 or 4 missions in NPC corp or mine in an Exhumer in NPC corp I am all for this. However, salvaging is not thievery and thus shouldn't be treated any differently than missionrunning or mining. I asked someone to salvage and he blew them up, so I asked why and he said, "My wrecks, I can shoot them if I want to." That statement made me think MY, implying he owns them, and by extension removing the wreck from him is considered thievery no matter what people may think. If salvaging weren't thievery then the wreck would allow you to tractor it, but instead it says it can not because it doesn't belong to you. The game says its thievery but ccp says it isn't. Clearly something needs to be done. To warp in and wipe the area out before a person can get a chance to is just wrong. I would support at least a 30-60 Minute timer on wrecks. Now seeing as how they disappear after 2 hours this would give you exclusive rights to it for 30-60 minutes after which anyone can salvage it. Should you wish to allow someone to salvage before the timer has expired, simply right click the wreck and select "Relinquish Wreck Ownership".
Breanta Nryrun Caldari Oblivion. Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2009.08.09 02:52:00 - [65] Silly Bears, Wrecks aren't for you they are for anyone! Ya think they whine now, Make the wrecks owned by the bear and all you will get is Carebear tears. Most PVE ships are not set for defenses against a PVP target. Will only make more wrecks for the Ninja to salvage! I vote let them win make wrecks owned, and make it even easier for the salvage crews! I will have my salvage mods Online!
Ava Starfire	Posted - 2009.08.09 03:26:00 - [66] I am all for making salvage theft flag the thief to the "owner" in highsec. I also manufacture ships for a good part of my in game income. Helps us both. Miners never attack anyone that flips them, and missionrunners (unless they are extremely stupid) would do well to just ignore the small amount of loss to ninjas. Getting your faction-fitted CNR all blown to bits would cause a lot more tears than the loss of some trit bars.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.09 05:17:00 - [67] Wrecks cannot be tractored by others because they also serve as containers for loot, which -is- yours.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:41:00 - [68] not the salvages needs flagging, NPC loot needs removal of player ownership to it, this is whats wrong.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Robert Caldera not the salvages needs flagging, NPC loot needs removal of player ownership to it, this is whats wrong. If this happened, I would be a happy ninja. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.10 18:01:00 - [70] All you need to be a ninja is 4 days of skill training and just say TEARS every other word.

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