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LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:34:00 - [1] As I have discussed many times in my IPO thread we are now in a testing phase with the EvE-Trade stock exchange. This application is almost ready for deployment, however we want to let some people in to see what we have done and test the abilities of the exchange. This will provide essential feedback for us and help to create a better exchange. EvE-Trade is not simply a stock exchange, it is designed to completely replace the current in game share system which we all know has never been the greatest. EvE Trade allows a CEO to create and manage virtual shares within the exchange and also pay dividends through the same entity. Reports can be uploaded by IPO managers and our own auditors to provide snap shots of any IPO or stocks currently available through the exchange. EvE-Trade is in no way a bank. Although we have some of the same functionality as far as account creation is concerned that is where it ends. We hope over the next few years to revolutionize the meta game and finally shed a light to the world of stocks. This thread is intended to be available for feedback from both beta testers and those who want to ask questions about the upcoming exchange. Sincerely, LadyOfWrath EvE-Trade - Chairman of the Board
Riethe Invictus Sovereignty	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:43:00 - [2] Call it New Eden Security Exchange Commission (NESEC) instead.
Weltact	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Riethe Call it New Eden Security Exchange Commission (NESEC) instead. Win.
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:48:00 - [4] If only i would of though of that sooner!
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:49:00 - [5] From a CEO's perspective, here are the first thoughts that jump into my head. 1. Without in-game shares, it'll be a pain to divide and distribute dividends to a large number of players. 2. This additional effort required would naturally need some sort of compensation, what will the fee structure look like to fund the operation?
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 19:58:00 - [6] Edited by: LadyOfWrath on 26/07/2009 19:59:22 The application also incorporates the in game share system, however due to the volatility of those shares (ability to be player traded without our knowledge) it makes it impossible for us to provide the dividend feature. Very small fees will be associated listing sell orders and buy orders. Corporations will not be charged to list their stocks through the exchange itself as that is counterproductive. In order for a player to purchase stocks from the exchange they must have an exchange account so this means when dividends are paid they are simply deducted from the CEO's account and credited to the shareholder accounts. Shareholders may then request withdrawals normally. The main objective here is to provide a much needed and reliable service to the EvE community. Edited for spelling
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 20:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau From a CEO's perspective, here are the first thoughts that jump into my head. 1. Without in-game shares, it'll be a pain to divide and distribute dividends to a large number of players. 2. This additional effort required would naturally need some sort of compensation, what will the fee structure look like to fund the operation? As the developer and operator of EVE-Trade, let me remark on the following: 1. As LadyOfWrath indicated, in-game shares will be supported. However, because in-game shares can be traded in the wild-West of EVE-Online, beyond the bounds of EVE-Trade, less transparency will be available for "EVE-Online EVE-Trade Managed Stocks" -- our take on managing in-game stocks outside of EVE-Online. 2. We are still working out the fee structures to which end potential user feedback is valuable. Again, as LoW indicated, we are considering per-order fees. Another possibility, aping E*Trade, would be discounts for volume traders.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.26 20:22:00 - [8] You're dancing around it so I'll ask; will you be supporting virtualized shares? Shares that have no physical existence in the game? EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 20:54:00 - [9] @ Hexxx - Yes this exchange fully supports virtual shares and is in fact specifically designed to utilize them to the fullest. Incorporating existing in game stocks is also available.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.07.26 20:57:00 - [10] signing up for beta
Reginald Rartan More Money Ltd Neutrino Technologies	Posted - 2009.07.26 20:59:00 - [11] Signing up for beta testing
DiiJay	Posted - 2009.07.26 22:05:00 - [12] Im signing up for the Beta
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.26 23:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Hexxx You're dancing around it so I'll ask; will you be supporting virtualized shares? Shares that have no physical existence in the game? We will not only be supporting "virtualized shares" but we will be strongly encouraging them. When I say "virtualized shares", for clarity's sake, I am referring to shares of IPOs/individual bonds that exist on and only within EVE-Trade and have no counterpart within the EVE-Online game itself. I refer to these as "fully managed shares" as their existence is fully managed within the EVE-Trade application. Such fully managed shares provide the benefit of more control and transparency to investors and, therefore, are lower risk investments than in-game shares that are more difficult to monitor and control and broker from outside EVE-Online with the existing API. That which reduces risk for our customers is good and therefore receives my full support.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Roquezir Originally by: Hexxx You're dancing around it so I'll ask; will you be supporting virtualized shares? Shares that have no physical existence in the game? We will not only be supporting "virtualized shares" but we will be strongly encouraging them. When I say "virtualized shares", for clarity's sake, I am referring to shares of IPOs/individual bonds that exist on and only within EVE-Trade and have no counterpart within the EVE-Online game itself. I refer to these as "fully managed shares" as their existence is fully managed within the EVE-Trade application. Such fully managed shares provide the benefit of more control and transparency to investors and, therefore, are lower risk investments than in-game shares that are more difficult to monitor and control and broker from outside EVE-Online with the existing API. That which reduces risk for our customers is good and therefore receives my full support. Sorry but who are you? Do you have an alt I know of or have we ever met? Not trying to stir up anything with this question I just noticed you're an exclamation mark and I've never heard of you yet you are working with LoW and I've heard of him a bit:p Just wondering if I should consider you as an unknown and start your personal record with me or if I can tie you to someone I already know. Feel free to respond in-game as well if you prefer. <Amarr's signature>
Yarinor	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:29:00 - [15] applying for beta :)
Carrie Mehome Misfitz Brigade	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:35:00 - [16] I also would like to apply to be apart of the Beta Testing.
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:36:00 - [17] @ AC155 - He is my primary coder behind the project and is rather new to EvE itself. He is within his own rights to answer questions regarding the technical side of the exchange with my permission. Due to my schedule I can't respond to every single reply here so he can easily answer some of the more basic questions regarding the functions of the exchange.
Nemesis Valerii Divine Retribution Inc	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Roquezir One Stop Research As the developer and operator of EVE-Trade, let me remark... ... That which reduces risk for our customers is good and therefore receives my full support Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Sorry but who are you? Do you have an alt I know of or have we ever met? Not trying to stir up anything with this question I just noticed you're an exclamation mark and I've never heard of you yet you are working with LoW and I've heard of him a bit:p Just wondering if I should consider you as an unknown and start your personal record with me or if I can tie you to someone I already know. Feel free to respond in-game as well if you prefer. No one cares what you think, you're just a wannabe. Never stop posting Amarr! Your arrogant remarks have been noted and you have been added to the list for destruction. Did I mention that I too have come to destroy you?
Klendaxor Caldari Carpe Jugulum.	Posted - 2009.07.27 01:52:00 - [19] Applying for beta, I am a futures trader by profession so keen to see what this is going to look like
XICD7	Posted - 2009.07.27 02:38:00 - [20] I'd also like to apply for the beta. Thank you.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:07:00 - [21] I was assuming there would actually be an application to participate in beta testing, but lacking that, I shall simply say that I am interested and willing to test. Roquezir has been indicated as the person to ask about technical details, so here I go. What security methods and technologies does EvE-Trade use? I shouldn't have to point out why security is an important consideration, but I will point out that very few (if any at all) third-party EVE websites take the proper steps to secure their website and their data. I reject any argument which follows the form "well, if we told you, it wouldn't be very secure" because this is security through obscurity, which any modern cryptographer will tell you is no security at all. This is why the U.S. National Security Agency gladly publishes the specifications for the algorithms used to encrypt 'TOP SECRET' documents; the algorithm is strong enough that, even knowing exactly how it works, someone can't crack it. Your website needs to do the same. What database methods and technologies does EvE-Trade use to ensure database integrity and prevent data loss? Where is EvE-Trade slated to be hosted once it goes live? If those details are unavailable, are you sure that this host has the capacity to handle this application? How comprehensive is the feature set for administrators? Can you, for example, remove a user from the system without losing any data? Can you reverse certain transactions without losing any data? Can you, without ever manually entering a query, edit every piece of data from the website? Does your application ever use the journal refID for anything other than journal 'walking'? Yes, I'm picky. Consider this my offer to review your code. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC]
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Packtu'sa What security methods and technologies does EvE-Trade use? The tech stack is: Apache 2 Phusion Passenger Ruby on Rails 2.3.3 MySQL 5 running on a tightly secured (meaning "I know exactly which ports are open and why") linux machine. Communication will be via HTTPS albeit using a self-signed certificate. The front-most front-end is primarily jQuery and jQuery-UI. Quote: What database methods and technologies does EvE-Trade use to ensure database integrity and prevent data loss? Data integrity is enforced in the model layer of the application via Rail's ActiveRecord relationships. This is an extremely common and robust way to model relationships between entities in Ruby on Rails applications. There are (fairly) few tables in EVE-Trade opting instead for a few extra columns per table to allow for polymorphic transaction types (for instance). In other words, deposits, withdrawals, purchases, and dividends are all handled via the same database table but using somewhat different columns as defined per each child class of transaction. Any external entities that may, in the future, have access to our data (via partnership agreements), will only do so via an API that by necessity uses our model layer. The model layer contains all of the business logic. That's just smart design. Quote: Where is EvE-Trade slated to be hosted once it goes live? If those details are unavailable, are you sure that this host has the capacity to handle this application? Slicehost on, at the moment, a single 256MB RAM 10GB HDD slice. If we should be so fortunate that we need a larger slice, Slicehost is ready and willing to let me upgrade the slice to ridiculous levels as desired. Slicehost was recently acquired by Rackspace which is well known for its robust hosting capabilities. Quote: How comprehensive is the feature set for administrators? Can you, for example, remove a user from the system without losing any data? Currently, it's fairly minimal but that's somewhat by intent. I take a strictly agile approach to development: I don't code more than I have to in order to get the job done. Should more administrative features be necessary down the line, I will add them. At this time, the admin features are solely focused on teller-based operations such as processing a user's request to withdraw cash (again, the request, and it's completion, are logged as transactions in the database). Quote: Can you reverse certain transactions without losing any data? At this time, I have not written reversible transactions. However, given the database in the database, frankly, I don't see why it would be a problem to do so later as necessary. Still, it would be impossible to "reverse" the disbursement of funds once they have occurred in-game. Quote: Can you, without ever manually entering a query, edit every piece of data from the website? I'm not sure that I understand the question. I believe that, perhaps, you are asking whether EVE-Trade is built atop a content management system (CMS)? If so then the answer is "no". Quote: Does your application ever use the journal refID for anything other than journal 'walking'? At this time, we do not have a need to walk the database journal. However, should business turn out to exceed expectations, I will be glad to add that feature on in short order. Quote: Yes, I'm picky. Consider this my offer to review your code. While your offer is appreciated, and I do participate in open source software, EVE-Trade is a closed-source project; I retain the rights to the code via copyright as is already stated on the website. If you are curious about my credentials, you can follow the link to my technical blog from the EVE-Trade site in due time.
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:31:00 - [23] Just to add a few more details: Our user registration process will not require an API Key. You will, however, have to deposit money to an EVE-Trade bot character in-game that will, within an hour's time, create a pending account for you. You will then supply EVE-Trade with your EVE character name and the amount of funds transferred to EVE in order to activate your account. This initial escrow amount will be, in effect, a form of temporary password. Account passwords will be stored in the database in an encrypted fashion As of launch time, only LadyOfWrath will have access to the EVE-Trade teller character
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:44:00 - [24] Edited by: Packtu''sa on 27/07/2009 03:44:48 Originally by: Roquezir Account passwords will be stored in the database in an encrypted fashion How? Originally by: Roquezir running on a tightly secured (meaning "I know exactly which ports are open and why") linux machine. I'm afraid I don't understand how simply knowing which ports are open guarantees security, let alone "tight" security. Originally by: Roquezir Communication will be via HTTPS albeit using a self-signed certificate. TLS is all well and good, but it is more or less useless for serving content to the public when using a self-signed certificate. Why do you not have enough confidence in EvE-Trade to make the small investment in purchasing a certificate from an authority? Originally by: Roquezir While your offer is appreciated, and I do participate in open source software, EVE-Trade is a closed-source project; I retain the rights to the code via copyright as is already stated on the website. Fair enough. [Edited: typo] Packtu'sa Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC]
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:50:00 - [25] Originally by: Roquezir [...] Our user registration process will not require an API Key. You will, however, have to deposit money to an EVE-Trade bot character in-game that will, within an hour's time, create a pending account for you. [...] By 'bot character' here I expect that you mean simply a dedicated pilot whose transaction data is gathered regularly via the legitimate API, rather than a 'bot' in the 'EULA-breaking macro' sense of the term. Just the same, you might want to avoid the term 'bot' in the future to avoid any confusion. á á
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Packtu'sa Edited by: Packtu''sa on 27/07/2009 03:44:48 Originally by: Roquezir Account passwords will be stored in the database in an encrypted fashion How? Via a one-way pad with an infinitesimally low likelihood of resulting in password overlap. Originally by: Roquezir running on a tightly secured (meaning "I know exactly which ports are open and why") linux machine. I'm afraid I don't understand how simply knowing which ports are open guarantees security, let alone "tight" security. Forgive me for noting that this particular statement sounds smug. I don't much appreciate that. Nonetheless, I will respond. Other than those few pieces of software that Slicehost provides as part of their default Ubuntu build, the linux box only has those apps on it necessary for EVE-Trade and a few other particular uses that I have for it (the VM/slice is not dedicated solely to EVE-Tade). I alone have access and control via secure shell and I do not log in as root. Originally by: Roquezir Communication will be via HTTPS albeit using a self-signed certificate. TLS is all well and good, but it is more or less useless for serving content to the public when using a self-signed certificate. Why do you not have enough confidence in EvE-Trade to make the small investment in purchasing a certificate from an authority? Unless you are really concerned that someone is going to hijack the domain somehow, a certificate issued from a signing authority is expensive (for us) and overkill. LadyOfWrath and I only have so much funds at my disposal. However, we will have a link on the site for individuals to donate to the upkeep of the server. Should we raise enough funds, I would gladly shell out the minimum $90/year to Network Solutions for a certificate.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Roquezir At this time, we do not have a need to walk the database journal. However, should business turn out to exceed expectations, I will be glad to add that feature on in short order. Let me rephrase: do you ever use the refID as a primary key? Packtu'sa Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC]
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 03:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Roquezir on 27/07/2009 03:57:17 Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Roquezir [...] Our user registration process will not require an API Key. You will, however, have to deposit money to an EVE-Trade bot character in-game that will, within an hour's time, create a pending account for you. [...] By 'bot character' here I expect that you mean simply a dedicated pilot whose transaction data is gathered regularly via the legitimate API, rather than a 'bot' in the 'EULA-breaking macro' sense of the term. Just the same, you might want to avoid the term 'bot' in the future to avoid any confusion. Correct and agreed respectively. By "bot", I do indeed mean a legitimate program that will be accessing the wallet API of a dedicated pilot that will be used to collect fund escrow deposits in-game on behalf of EVE-Trade. I forgot that "bot" here can also mean an automated macro program. Thanks for the clarification.
LadyOfWrath Caldari One Stop Mining Shop One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 04:12:00 - [29] Keep it coming guys. Lots of good information, and glad we have knowledgeable people taking this seriously. To participate in the closed beta please sign up here. Remember this is for you the players so please if you trade stocks or are looking to get into this we want your input.
Roquezir Minmatar Dark Fusion Fleet One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.07.27 04:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Packtu'sa Originally by: Roquezir At this time, we do not have a need to walk the database journal. However, should business turn out to exceed expectations, I will be glad to add that feature on in short order. Let me rephrase: do you ever use the refID as a primary key? Not as a primary key but we will be storing it as a field on deposits.

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