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The True Cowardice and Incompetence that is the Amarr

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Bootius McGee	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:38:00 - [1] When this military conflict first began, the Amarr were being beaten from pillar to post, having their systems taken from them at every whim of the many brave, competent and united Minmatar Militia pilots. This caused quite the crisis, and of course, begged loudly for a creative solution, as militarily the Amarr had no answer. The Amarr did what all oppressors eventually do. They planted moles, sowed the seeds of internal dissension and strife, working like ****roaches hiding in the shadows, and even stooping so low as to finance the enterprise of murderous pirate thugs to harass the Minmatar militia and thus derail their advancements. To that end, sadly, they were exceedingly successful. What were previously proud Minmatar conquests slowly returned to oppressive Amarrian authority as the Minmatar suffered from their own misguided derailings, petty personal differences and the well-financed mercenary pirate thugs set against them by the Amarr. Then a curious thing happened. Some of the sparring members of the militia set aside their internal differences. The bought-and-paid-for pirate mercenaries were dealt with, and no longer threaten the peace, safety and security as they once had, allowing for more coordinated, complimentary and unified Minmatar military actions. The tide began to turn once again, the many brave pilots of the Minmatar militia boldly proclaiming with unity and sense of purpose that the Amarr will not be victorious, no matter how loudly the laughable cry of "Amarr Victor" is whined from behind rocks and in roadside ditches. So, the Amarr, singing the same old lame refrain again turn to hired guns and paid mercenaries to do what they are simply and patently incapable of doing, but this time the tune is old and dry. Even with their hired pirate guns, even with their begged assistance from their Caldari lapdog pets, they could not prevent the bold Minmatar militia from accomplishing what they had set in their sights. This is the new Minmatar generation. This is the new Minmatar cooperation. This is the new Minmatar force, united in spirit and in act, defiant and strong against the oppressive Amarr and their sad attempts at fomenting internal strife. This is the new Minmatar militia, in the Amarr systems, freeing the enslaved, thwarting the attempts of these so-called "masters" and slapping their faces like the dogs they are. This is the new Minmatar militia. Proud. Strong. Immovable and inviolate.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:41:00 - [2] And long may it continue to be so. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:48:00 - [3] Edited by: Stitcher on 27/07/2009 16:49:35 You know, I really would like to congratulate the Matari on their successes. I really would. Unfortunately for the Minmatar, the pilots who seem to do most of the talking on their behalf are the ones who are even less magnanimous in victory than the Amarr would be. Do you have any idea how egotistical you sound, Pilot McGee? Your entire post just holds a mirror up that shows how closely the Minmatar can resemble the Amarr at times. I won't begrudge your captains and crewmen the right to celebrate a victory, nor you the right to be proud of your people for shaking off Amarrian influence in your governement... But please do the cluster a favour and give humility a try for a change, hmm? You'd find a lot more support for your efforts if you gave the rest of us even a hint that you are capable of being dignified and restrained, even in your moments of triumph. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Stitcher You know, I really would like to congratulate the Matari on their successes. I really would. Then do so. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:50:00 - [5] I believe I just did, in a backhanded sort of way. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Stitcher I believe I just did, in a backhanded sort of way. Try to avoid the dishonest phrasing and people would have far less problem with you. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:54:00 - [7] Edited by: Stitcher on 27/07/2009 16:54:42 Don't start, pilot, please. the intent of my comment was to extend congratulations to the TLF as a whole, while simultaneously criticising pilot McGee. I achieved this objective. end of discussion, and now I'm going to bow out before another argument gets started and another topic gets locked. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Bootius McGee Bla Blah Bootius McGee you should stop at first place to be a basement minmatar. Basement minmatar - A minmatar person who uses big words (from far away) and is not even contributing to the effort of his people.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:42:00 - [9] Oh look. A Minmatar posting his reasons for disliking the Amarr. Haven't seen that before.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:07:00 - [10] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 27/07/2009 18:08:01 It is true that the ranks of the Shakorites have been strengthened by the addition to their ranks of corporations such as Dark-Rising and Reikoku. It is true that they have recently won a victory. It is true that they occupy more space now than they did a week ago. And yet, victory on a single battlefield does not automatically mean victory in the war, and the recent Minmatar triumphalism over victory in a single system simply indicates the direness of their situation up until that point. Those who write off the Amarr forget that we are God's people. Just as God is eternal, so is His Empire. The final victory in this war will belong to Amarr. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Zanco Ceal Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Bootius McGee united in spirit and in act i guess your the 'spirit' part
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.27 18:49:00 - [12] As happy as I am to hear of the resurgence of the TLF Pilot McGee, I humbly suggest that we keep these sorts of pronouncements to a more private venue. Our struggle is far from over and I'd hate for our foes to turn these words against us in the future should circumstances change.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:39:00 - [13] Jesus, can you say something new for a change?
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:41:00 - [14] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Jesus, can you say something new for a change? I like Cheese. ---
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Heartstone I like Cheese. Goat, cow or sheep? Yes. Yes, I am.
Vaarun Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:40:00 - [16] Edited by: Vaarun on 27/07/2009 20:41:26 Edited by: Vaarun on 27/07/2009 20:41:02 Your assessment of the Amarr front, it's history and background, is an amusing piece of fiction. Will this piece of fiction be published? If so, I would like a copy, as I have a table with a wobbly leg. Such a short work, free of proof or references, would be the perfect size to shim that wobbly leg. The book of TRUE history, however, is thick, well documented, and written over a long period of time. That is the version I will read and believe for I have helped to write it. One small victory using a tactic which will be hard to repeat(and using an exploit which will soon be fixed) does nothing. The pendulum swings back and forth, but in the end, it always swing back harder in favor of the Amarr. Yout take one, we take two(the one you took and a new one). Not an exceptionally fast progression, but we are Amarr. Time is on our side. Take what you can from your battles. We will still concentrate on the war... "To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees." -Vaarun
Secretary Phase	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:28:00 - [17] Edited by: Secretary Phase on 27/07/2009 21:28:39 Interesting example of how twisted reality can become through a rather emotional individuals pov. Only thing I'd be interested in is the merc entities the OP claims to have been hired against the Minmatar, as I know from reliable sources that such a thing never happened. So just out of curiousity and the purpose of further psychological analysis - which corps did (or do) you view as mercs hired against the Minmatar?
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.27 22:36:00 - [18] Edited by: Heartstone on 27/07/2009 22:36:59 Originally by: Secretary Phase Edited by: Secretary Phase on 27/07/2009 21:28:39 Only thing I'd be interested in is the merc entities the OP claims to have been hired against the Minmatar, as I know from reliable sources that such a thing never happened. You are, of course, wrong. The mercenary alliance Noir. Mercenary Group headed by the well known Alekseyev Karrde has been hired by the Amarr nationalist corporation P.I.E. on more than one occasion. To quote the Noir. manifesto of services rendered P.I.E. have received aid from them in the form of "POS rescue/rep" and "Consulting/Strategic Planning"[1]. The aid provided by Noir. to the P.I.E. corporation obviously bolsters P.I.E. and as a direct result hampers the Minmatar Milita efforts. P.I.E. are well known by those who conduct wars against them for hiring merc corps for whatever reason they do so. I believe it is because they, despite having a few good combat pilots, generally feel the people arrayed against them are either more experience or more competent than them. I am sure P.I.E. if they acknowledged such a practice as paying Heathens to do their god given work for them, which of course they have always refuted they have done, would have a number of other reasons for why they resorted to hiring a mercenary organisation. The major difference here is simply in the quality of the mercs hired. Normally the level of mercs employed by P.I.E. are at the low end of the scale whereas Noir. are most defiantly towards the top end. This is the primary example that spring to mind without doing any actual research in any great depth into the subject of the Amarr Militia hiring mercenary corporations. I do not believe, however, it is the lone case but this should be constructed to mean I think they are the only one's doing so as I am sure all four factions have, at some point, had someone in their ranks who have done such a thing. It should also be noted that my words here don't condemn anyone for hiring mercenary outfits to do something for them as there is not inherently wrong with it in my opinion. What it shows and does not show about a person's character in hiring such a corporation is far too individual and subjective for any real critique of the practice to be made. Heartstone. [1] Reference here ---
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:23:00 - [19] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/07/2009 07:25:39 Heartstone, I think that you must be confusing PIE Inc. with some other group called P.I.E. PIE Inc. has never entered into a business relationship with any mercenary corp, including Noir. Why would PIE Inc. need to use Noir. for POS repairs when we have never owned any POSes? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
BattleStar Crusader Amarr Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.07.28 09:14:00 - [20] "This caused quite the crisis, and of course, begged loudly for a creative solution, as militarily the Amarr had no answer." You had a rather high level pvp corp called Outbreak that pretty much won all your battles for you, they were to hard for the Amarr militia to take on. When they left things changed and the Amarr started to dominate the region, winning battle after battle until your morale was broken. "even stooping so low as to finance the enterprise of murderous pirate thugs to harass the Minmatar militia and thus derail their advancements." Are you talking of the pirates that, when your militia were not in space, the Amarr militia would go and shoot and kill. Waste of money if we pay the guys, then go kill them don't you think. We have an entire kill log of pirates kills for you to look over if you need proof. After Out break left you guys went down hill, Mirrorgod started what seemed to be a long lasting civil war which diveded your militia, up until the point Dark joined. Dark kept mostly to themselves, fielded rather large corp fleets and stayed down in taff out of the way, it was only when your biggest asset and truely best asset joined did dark really fully commit to the faction war areana and go all "we love minmitar". You then planted spies in our militia and listend in on comms while we fuaght, we did like wise and listened to ourselves on your comms. from our spies we learned about the true facts and the real reasons you were no longer a militia worth fighting. You had no fleet commanders competent enough to counter the amarr, your corps were figthing each other, you were so worried about spies you kicked you best combat pilots out of fleet. And you were so demoralised that you went into every fight thinking you would loose. So the basic flow of my post. RKK/DARK ,featuring the minitar militia, has turned the tide of the war in your favour but as the amarr militia did last time we will adapt and get stronger and turn it back. False accusations to dermoralise will fail, your attempts to sowe decite have failed.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 10:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/07/2009 07:25:39 Heartstone, I think that you must be confusing PIE Inc. with some other group called P.I.E. PIE Inc. has never entered into a business relationship with any mercenary corp, including Noir. Why would PIE Inc. need to use Noir. for POS repairs when we have never owned any POSes? If it is the case that this contract originated from a different organisation bearing a similar name to yourselves then I, of course, retract those words. In regards to PIE Inc never hiring any mercenary corp I have to say the correlation evidence is against you on that one Rodj given the number of times mercenary organisations have declared war on various entities that are at war with yourselves. Of course it might simply be the case that a long standing member of your organisation is doing it privatly I guess. In the end though if your yourself hired the mercenarys in the past I cannot believe it is something that PIE Inc would admit to which leaves the whole conversation at a bit of an impasse. As this particular case isn't easy show one way or another, and in regards to original thrust of my argument against the Amarrian mouthpiece I would like to draw your attention to the "The 7 Mercenaries" corporation who were hired by "Sisters Of Jamyl Sarum" corporation when they were still involved in the Amarrian Milita. This fact was confirmed in public by the CEO of the Sisters Of Jamyl Sarum corporation. To be honest I probably should have cited this example first but I have an interest in the continued success story of Noir. which is why they sprung to mind first. Heartstone. ---
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 10:20:00 - [22] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/07/2009 10:24:10 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/07/2009 10:21:42 Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/07/2009 07:25:39 Heartstone, I think that you must be confusing PIE Inc. with some other group called P.I.E. PIE Inc. has never entered into a business relationship with any mercenary corp, including Noir. Why would PIE Inc. need to use Noir. for POS repairs when we have never owned any POSes? If it is the case that this contract originated from a different organisation bearing a similar name to yourselves then I, of course, retract those words. In regards to PIE Inc never hiring any mercenary corp I have to say the correlation evidence is against you on that one Rodj given the number of times mercenary organisations have declared war on various entities that are at war with yourselves. Of course it might simply be the case that a long standing member of your organisation is doing it privatly I guess. In the end though if your yourself hired the mercenarys in the past I cannot believe it is something that PIE Inc would admit to which leaves the whole conversation at a bit of an impasse. As this particular case isn't easy show one way or another, and in regards to original thrust of my argument against the Amarrian mouthpiece I would like to draw your attention to the "The 7 Mercenaries" corporation who were hired by "Sisters Of Jamyl Sarum" corporation when they were still involved in the Amarrian Milita. This fact was confirmed in public by the CEO of the Sisters Of Jamyl Sarum corporation. To be honest I probably should have cited this example first but I have an interest in the continued success story of Noir. which is why they sprung to mind first. Heartstone. Of course, I'm not responsible for how other corps in the Amarr miltia spend their money, but I will repeat here for the record that PIE does not hire mercenaries, and we would take a very dim view of any of our members who wastes their money on hired guns. Indeed, a lot of mercenary corps are actually red to us following past acts of aggression! And why would we need to hire mercenaries anyway, when pretty much every time we find ourselves we have a new war we receive offers of free help from our friends and allies? However, on the issue of mercenary corps involved in the current conflict, the highest profile one at the moment appears to be FRICK. And they're fighting on the Minmatar side. As such, Bootius' assertion that the Amarr "...turn to hired guns and paid mercenaries to do what they are simply and patently incapable of doing..." seems a little odd. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 10:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Heartstone on 28/07/2009 10:48:09 Originally by: Rodj Blake However, on the issue of mercenary corps involved in the current conflict, the highest profile one at the moment appears to be FRICK. And they're fighting on the Minmatar side. As such, Bootius' assertion that the Amarr "...turn to hired guns and paid mercenaries to do what they are simply and patently incapable of doing..." seems a little odd. In regards to FRICK I am not sure if they are still a Mercenary organisation in regard to this conflict. I suspect given their history with long term Matari freedom fighters that they may simply be in this conflict because it is what they believe in. I don't know for sure as I said previous the use of mercenary corporations isn't something that I have issue with in any case. I certainly wouldn't use the use of mercenary outfits such as FRICK or anyone else to be an indication of failure or desperation on anyone's part. My response was simply in regards to the rather sweeping declarative issued by the Amarrian Mouthpiece that "Only thing I'd be interested in is the merc entities the OP claims to have been hired against the Minmatar, as I know from reliable sources that such a thing never happened". Heartstone. Heartstone. ---
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 14:46:00 - [24] The allegation that PIE has payed mercenaries for "strategic consulting" is one of the funniest things I have read on here in a while. Given that we tend to fight rather unique wars and have a policy of flying Amarrian only ships, it is a fantastic exercise to try and come up with the potential issues for which we could actually use "strategic consulting." Let me know when you plan to release the next ill-researched slander attempt, I could use another laugh. Oh, and it is, of course, absolutely impossible that large public announcements filled with ill-advised hyperbole and often outright lies from a certain party would cause neutral parties to take an interest and declare war on you. In such a circumstance it must be the group you are targeting that hired them as there is no-one in space who dislikes your organization enough to try and hurt you when you conveniently tell the entire world exactly what you are going to be up to. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Secretary Phase	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Heartstone Edited by: Heartstone on 27/07/2009 22:36:59 Originally by: Secretary Phase Edited by: Secretary Phase on 27/07/2009 21:28:39 Only thing I'd be interested in is the merc entities the OP claims to have been hired against the Minmatar, as I know from reliable sources that such a thing never happened. You are, of course, wrong. [...] I am - of course - not. Not only have Noir. not been hired by PIE, they are not even involved in the conflict in any way. The only current link to the conflict is that one of the alliances they have wardecced at this moment harbours a corp that until very recently has been a part of the Amarr militia (APVS). As to other hired guns fighting for the Amarr: Not only do all my sources deny existence of such deals in the past or present (a denial you may of course put in question), there also exist no combat records of any mercenary corporation deserving the name fighting on the Amarr side directly, in form of concord-sanctioned wardecs or plain acts of piracy - and that's a fact - you're welcome to try and prove me wrong. On the other hand, FRICK. having joined the Minmatar militia as well as Com-Star and GIS performing POS defense duties for -DARK (iirc) as well as selectively engaging Amarr when in the area sheds quite an opposite light on the claims - and these are only from the top of my head. Best regards Secretary Phase
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:02:00 - [26] Edited by: Heartstone on 28/07/2009 15:02:11 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Let me know when you plan to release the next ill-researched slander attempt, I could use another laugh. I hardly think it was ill researched to assume that a corporation that hired Noir. being called PIE would be attributed to yourselves. As for the rest of your tirade on what you do and don't need I'll simply shrug and move on as frankly I think some Strategic consulting would be good for you but your pride would never let you admit to that. As stated before though this isn't about PIE this is about the wild claims made by one of the Amarrian Militia's cheerleaders. Always so defense Gaven. Dear oh dear. Quote: Oh, and it is, of course, absolutely impossible that large public announcements filled with ill-advised hyperbole and often outright lies from a certain party would cause neutral parties to take an interest and declare war on you. In such a circumstance it must be the group you are targeting that hired them as there is no-one in space who dislikes your organization enough to try and hurt you when you conveniently tell the entire world exactly what you are going to be up to. As I wasn't particularly talking about SF and in fact never made mention of my Alliance in anything I said I think we can mark this one off as yet another attempt by yourself to troll anything posted by a member of my Alliance. It is rather sad that you are reduced to this ill conceived ranting and frothing when ever our Alliance name is mentioned. Maybe you can ask Rodj for some pointers on how a good Amarrian should behave in public? Find another thread to derail Mr. Lok'ri. Heartsone. ---
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Secretary Phase I am - of course - not. Well you aren't in regards to Noir. That seems to be the case after it was cleared up by Rodj but the fact still remains that Mercenary Corporations have indeed been hired against the Minmatar people by Amarrian Militia corporation. However As I pointed out in my reply to Rodj when he brought to my attention there was another corp of almost the same name who had hired Noir. and it was not in fact their corporation the Mercencary corp known as "The 7 Mercenaries" were indeed hired by an Amarrian Milita corporation known as the "Sisters Of Jamyl Sarum". This was conformed by their CEO in public. I do have to wonder why everyone is being so defensive about it though to be honest. What is it about the practice of hiring experts to do a job of work that the Amarrians and their mouth pieces find so terrible they cannot admit it? I suggest you ask your sources why they are lying to you. Heartstone. ---
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:16:00 - [28] This business about mercenaries is a ridiculous debate anyway. What does it matter? If the 24th Crusade needs mercenaries it needs mercenaries. Its hardly a note of shame for a military organization under pressure to call in for help. To be quite honest I agree with Heartstone - the Amarrian militia could do with some professional help since it might teach them how to fight rather than run away and hide in high sec. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Marus Sulla Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Jesus, can you say something new for a change? Slavery so last years fashion is it? Maybe for the many-born who will never suffer it or the super rich like yourself Istvaan? Congrats TLF on a small victory in the only war worth fighting in the cluster.
Secretary Phase	Posted - 2009.07.28 16:29:00 - [30] Edited by: Secretary Phase on 28/07/2009 16:31:31 Whilst I agree that it is rather unimportant, the OP claims hired guns had turned the tides in the conflict in favour of the Amarr side which would imply a large scale involvement on their behalf, which never was the case. As I had pointed out in the first place, I just asked which mercenary forces the OP imagines to have done so for purely academic reasons. Considering my sources in the Amarr Militia and them lying to me: The sisters of Jamyl Sarum have never been any major contributor to the Amarr Militia and don't even exist anymore as far as I know (I wonder why...) - neither did their hired guns (if your claim holds true at all) influence the course of the war in any significant manner, thus it may have escaped my attention. Back on topic, it should be stated that the simple truth is: The Amarr Militia was steamrolled in the very beginning of the war because a completely disorganized bunch of small corps and individual pilots faced toxin (around 200 very well organized and highly skilled pilots at that time) and heretics accompanied by a bunch of small disorganized corps twice the numbers of the Amarr. As if this had not been enough, the Minmatar had so many spies in Amarr communications channels, they could even afford to blow their cover in order to sabotage them. Another major contribution is due to the fact that the prerequistites for a system to change ownership were extremely low for the first 1-2 weeks of the conflict, the period in which all early Minmatar success took place. Admittedly, the changes introduced by concord have saved the Amarr from getting completely overrun but also made the reclaiming of those 7 lost systems a way more tedious process than it had been for the Minmatar invading them in the first place. During that period, Slacker Industries being the only noteworthy corp in the Amarr Militia except for PIE (who mostly sticked to themselves) didn't help either as they were known for militia internal wardecs, piracy and dissent among the Amarr, leading to the withdrawal of CVA support before it even started and that lasts to this date. After 0utbreak had left and MG had broken with the Minmatar Militia, the remainder of the Minmatar was a bunch of disorganized pilots twice the number of the Amarr, whereas the Amarr had adapted to fighting a superior enemy and as a results wreaked havoc on them. The series of defeats experienced by them made their numbers dwindle as all the freeloaders ran and at the lowest point, Minmatar only outnumbered Amarr by roughly 600 pilots. STAND came and left the Minmatar and are now a shadow of their former self, DR failed to make any impact and had to rely on mercs to defend their POS. Now RKK joining the Minmatar may have some impact (and already does - again myriads of hanger-ons crawl out of their holes), but the full impact has yet to be seen as they seem to be doing something else for the most part until now. Spies have been doing their jobs on both sides and still do so, so that's not a major contributor. The issue at hand is, that the OP claims that Amarr spies and mercs to have played a sisgnificant role, whereas the main bulk of the remaining 4500 pilots after toxin and heretics had left being pushovers (except for MAAK) who only had learned to follow those spearhead-corps around in a blob is enough of an explanation. The lack of any major merc involvement on combat records is enough to prove him wrong (and I don't mean a third-class small merc corp that may or may not have been hired by a nonentity). Best regards Secretary Phase
Vaarun Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 16:33:00 - [31] Edited by: Vaarun on 28/07/2009 16:34:42 Originally by: Heartstone This is the primary example that spring to mind without doing any actual research in any great depth into the subject of the Amarr Militia hiring mercenary corporations. THIS^^ You discredit your own attack. I suggest you DO more actual research before making assumptions or accusations. PIE does not maintain POS's, and we need no consulting in our strategic affairs. This cannot be PIE, Inc. "To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees." -Vaarun
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 16:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Vaarun Edited by: Vaarun on 28/07/2009 16:34:42 Originally by: Heartstone This is the primary example that spring to mind without doing any actual research in any great depth into the subject of the Amarr Militia hiring mercenary corporations. THIS^^ You discredit your own attack. I suggest you DO more actual research before making assumptions or accusations. PIE does not maintain POS's, and we need no consulting in our strategic affairs. This cannot be PIE, Inc. Has Heartstone not already retracted the comment based on an understandable confusion between similarly named corporations? Why belabour the point. A mistake was made it has been admitted and retracted. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Jade Constantine Has Heartstone not already retracted the comment based on an understandable confusion between similarly named corporations? Why belabour the point. A mistake was made it has been admitted and retracted. I think it is fairly clear why he is belabouring the point he is simply following his Master Gaven's lead in trolling everything thread with SF members in as much as possible until the thread is derailed. Sad really as there are one or two in the ranks of PIE who have not fallen into this trap of throwing tantrums in public until their voice drowns out all others. Now can we please can back to the point in hand rather than the continual ineffective sniping at SF? Heartstone. ---
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:22:00 - [34] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 28/07/2009 19:24:50 Originally by: Heartstone I think it is fairly clear why he is belabouring the point he is simply following his Master Gaven's lead in trolling everything thread with SF members in as much as possible until the thread is derailed. Sad really as there are one or two in the ranks of PIE who have not fallen into this trap of throwing tantrums in public until their voice drowns out all others. Now can we please can back to the point in hand rather than the continual ineffective sniping at SF? Heartstone. I am astonished that anyone could make such a hypocritical attack with a straight face. You have the gall to say that I am the one derailing the thread when you have come out with: 1. An accusation that my corporation lied when we said we do not hire mercs: "I am sure P.I.E. if they acknowledged such a practice as paying Heathens to do their god given work for them, which of course they have always refuted they have done, would have a number of other reasons for why they resorted to hiring a mercenary organisation." 2. A slanderous and utterly unfounded statement that PIE "are well known by those who conduct wars against them for hiring merc corps for whatever reason they do so." 3. A insult that PIE feels that its enemies are "more competent than them" and therefore needs to hire mercs. 4. A fallacious exhibit of evidence that you did not check up on and used to support your slander against PIE. 5. When Rodj pointed out your use of inaccurate evidence, you then suggested Rodj either was lying or that PIE has some mysterious shadowy person hiring mercs to attack people. Your "apology" is in the midst of calling Rodj a liar or a fool. And then you come and accuse me of somehow trolling every SF post and having no business getting involved in this thread, when you had actively derailed the thread into a direct slander of PIE's name and were trying to get away with your basic insinuations even though your primary evidence is complete bunk and none of your attacks are founded. You said the mistake has been admitted and retracted, but then in the same breath as your "apology" continued to accuse us of lying. The point of my post was to call you on that attempt to make the slander you had concocted stick. And suddenly, now that you have been called on that, your tune has changed to a message that PIE taking umbrage at your attempt to slander our name is to follow "Gaven's lead in trolling everything thread with SF members in as much as possible until the thread is derailed." Lying about the activities of someone's organization in an attempt to slander them and then trying to pretend that their response to your slander is the derail is one of the lowest tactics I have seen used on this forum in quite a while. I had believed that you had simply made a mistake and that you were so arrogant in your own interpretation that you could not see any alternative way in which the "evidence" of our using mercenaries could be explained. But after this display, I am no longer so sure that it was a mistake at all. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Vaarun Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:24:00 - [35] Edited by: Vaarun on 28/07/2009 19:25:49 Originally by: Jade Constantine Has Heartstone not already retracted the comment based on an understandable confusion between similarly named corporations? Why belabour the point. A mistake was made it has been admitted and retracted. The "belaboring" points to the mindset that was so eager to assume that PIE, Inc. would be hiring mercenaries, which fits his preconcieved notions. Whan making accusations, a bit of due diligence is in order, otherwise you look ill-informed and uncredible. Simply sweeping the matter away under some back-handed retraction does not alleviate you from the fault so easily. But, my point on this has been made: the slight has been documented. You can stop waving your hands... Originally by: Heartstone I think it is fairly clear why he is belabouring the point he is simply following his Master Gaven's lead in trolling everything thread with SF members in as much as possible until the thread is derailed. Sad really as there are one or two in the ranks of PIE who have not fallen into this trap of throwing tantrums in public until their voice drowns out all others. Now can we please can back to the point in hand rather than the continual ineffective sniping at SF? Heartstone. Derailed? Not only do you show the inability to check your facts, but you forget the intent of the thread you claim is being derailed! To review, the title of the post is "The True Cowardice and Incompetence that is the Amarr". You had made a statement supporting this conjecture, a conjecture of flawed origin and assumption. I was merely underlining your error as it shows a mindset that is obviously bereft of any objectivity. This was very unlike one of your previous posts where I thought you gave a very un-biased assessment of the Faction War. Why can you not do so now? Hmm...I wonder... Your eagerness to lock-step with your corpmates on this issue was rather obvious, and in your haste, your error was made. Who is following who's Master, Heartstone? Very well, back on topic. You have cited some cases to support the assumption of the OP and they have been shown to be flawed. Next sniper round? I have yet to see any real evidence of "cowardice or incompetence" by Amarr either in the KB or FW stats. And please check your sources before posting. It helps keep us on topic, which is the only thing I think we can both agree on... EDIT: I did not see the Admiral's reply before posting mine, otherwise I would not have bothered for I think he adressed it quite well. Still, I spent the effort, so I will leave it. "To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees." -Vaarun
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri 1. An accusation that my corporation lied when we said we do not hire mercs: "I am sure P.I.E. if they acknowledged such a practice as paying Heathens to do their god given work for them, which of course they have always refuted they have done, would have a number of other reasons for why they resorted to hiring a mercenary organisation." Yes and? I still believe this is the case. Quote: 2. A slanderous and utterly unfounded statement that PIE "are well known by those who conduct wars against them for hiring merc corps for whatever reason they do so." Again I still believe that is the case and it is not only SF who have commented on the fact that when they are at war with PIE Inc there is suddenly a war dec from a Merc alliance or corporation without fail every time at roughly the same time in the war. Therefore I believe it is the case yes. Quote: 3. A insult that PIE feels that its enemies are "more competent than them" and therefore needs to hire mercs. Not an insult at all simply how I view the fact that we only see a certain small number of your pilots doing anything but running away. Quote: 4. A fallacious exhibit of evidence that you did not check up on and used to support your slander against PIE. Again it was an honest mistake that PIE wasn't the same as Pie. I suppose you claim to have never made a mistake? Quote: 5. When Rodj pointed out your use of inaccurate evidence, you then suggested Rodj either was lying or that PIE has some mysterious shadowy person hiring mercs to attack people. Your "apology" is in the midst of calling Rodj a liar or a fool. No I agreed with I'm that maybe it wasn't the same PIE I have yet to see evidence that it ISN'T the same PIE but for the sake of being honest[1] I have admitted that I don't know. Really Gaven half quoting some parts and failing to quote at all when it doesn't suit your ends? How see through are you planning on making your at slight of hand? The rest of it was observation on what I have seen from you. As for the rest of your laughable excuse to justify your actions Gaven I will simply let others look at every thread SF members have posted in and see for themselves your stalker like obsession. Feel free to continue to fail around grasping at half truths to justify your continued pointless tirades. I have grown completely sick of talking to someone who refuses to have the common decency to not try and twist everything that is put in front of them and yes derail everything he can into a bitter rant against the people he calls irrelevant at every opportunity. To that end you will be shouting into the wind from now on Gaven as it is clear you have nothing intelligent to add to any conversation I shall not be bothering to read anything you write. Rodj at least has shown that whilst I believe he is an agent of Evil in this universe he can at least be civil. Heartstone. [1] Just to help you out on this one Gaven. Honest - Hon+est adj. - Characterized by truth; not false ---
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:44:00 - [37] You had best hope that people just believe your hyperbole rather than actually checking your facts. Because if you look at "every thread SF members have posted in" you will find that I ignore the vast majority of your posts. I must ask though, and I do believe this is a return to the original topic, what does it mean if a corporation that you personally apparently "only see a certain small number of [their] pilots doing anything but running away" has been involved in over two hundred and forty ship kills and taken over sixty losses in the last week alone? Did those all happen because we ran away, or is the assertion that we are cowards empirically disproven by the deaths of our martyrs and the burning hulls of Matari and Amarrian warships strewn across the theater of their most recent offensive? Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.28 22:19:00 - [38] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri I must ask though, and I do believe this is a return to the original topic, what does it mean if a corporation that you personally apparently "only see a certain small number of [their] pilots doing anything but running away" has been involved in over two hundred and forty ship kills and taken over sixty losses in the last week alone? He means you run away from us. Quote: Did those all happen because we ran away, or is the assertion that we are cowards empirically disproven by the deaths of our martyrs and the burning hulls of Matari and Amarrian warships strewn across the theater of their most recent offensive? You are good at cooperating in mass frigate attacks against relatively young matari fighters in restricted complexes - these are the kills you routinely score. This does not change Heartstone's (correct) assessment, that when we see your ships in space they are mostly running away (from us). 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.07.28 22:41:00 - [39] This must be the new SF, guys look at me me me that was converted, then gradually evolves into the SF vs. Amarr thread. hmmm I have a idea
Foolish Bob Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust	Posted - 2009.07.28 23:20:00 - [40] Brace yourselves, for I'm about to pull the thread back on topic. I must be ill or something Congrats to the minnies for taking a system of course, but for the OP I wouldn't think that this is going to be much of a psychological blow to the Amarr. After all outnumbering them by 500 pilots wasn't enough for you to acheive this victory - it required a majority of almost a full 1000 in order to make any headway against them. That's kind of cool. I'd also point out that I was there when Amarr was more outnumbered, more blobbed and more spied upon than it is now. Systems fell and U'K had cap fleets on standby to support most minmatar fleet actions. The tide turned then and I have every expectation that it will again. ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in. I'm also not a unique and special snowflake. Everything I say should be taken in that context.
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.07.28 23:43:00 - [41] I fully support Foolish Bob's statement, and yeah, why not, congratulations to the minnies for taking a system, good for you guys. You did great.
Secretary Phase	Posted - 2009.07.29 01:43:00 - [42] Originally by: Heartstone Edited by: Heartstone on 28/07/2009 15:02:11 ....the wild claims made by one of the Amarrian Militia's cheerleaders. Heartstone. A screen flickers, you see Secretary Phase not wearing her usual business suit but a short skirt and a bra Give me an F! Give me an A! Give me an I! Give me an L! STAR FRACTION! Best regards Secretary Phase transmissions ends
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.29 08:29:00 - [43] Quote: You are good at cooperating in mass frigate attacks against relatively young matari fighters in restricted complexes I am sure that RKK and Dark-Rising pilots who have been the main presence in the complexes over the last few weeks will take great joy in knowing that they are relatively young and that the ships they are losing are to mass frigate attacks. FRICK also strike me as a particularly new set of pilots that just have no idea what to do when the "mass frigate attack" comes by. I am, of course, being quite sarcastic. Those groups fight aggressively and they understand what is actually important in war. That much I have to give them. Even if they fight for the wrong cause, they are fighting to win and they are actively threatening Amarr. They will be stopped because we have no choice but to do anything in our power to stop any who would attack the Empire of God and His People. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.29 08:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri we have no choice but to do anything in our power to stop any who would attack the Empire of God and His People. But Admiral, you do have a choice. You just do not want to suffer the consequences - the consequences of thousands of years of picking the wrong choice.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.29 09:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Jade Constantine This does not change Heartstone's (correct) assessment, that when we see your ships in space they are mostly running away (from us). By the same reasoning SF seems too frightened to join the real war and continues to wallow within the safety of their own alliance and is content with pestering Crusade pilots from the sidelines. PIE's primary objective is the war with the Republic and her supporters, and SF are merely targets of opportunity. Ignored where possible, destroyed if expedient. Star Fraction lacks the will to truly commit to this war, and lacks the will to adapt their tactics to be effective in the role they have chosen for themselves in this war. Hence Star Fraction is entirely dependent on their opponents decision to engage them for any kind of conflict to occur. Rationalizing SF's difficult position as 'opponents running away' is of course entirely logical and expected. As far as I'm concerned, SF's role is similar to the MALIN pirates of Sahtogas, both have fairly static operations, are based in one system, do only few roams and are primarly camping stations and stargates with heavy ships and have no interest in defending or attacking navy installations. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri we have no choice but to do anything in our power to stop any who would attack the Empire of God and His People. But Admiral, you do have a choice. You just do not want to suffer the consequences - the consequences of thousands of years of picking the wrong choice. We worked towards peace for a century, warmonger. You repayed us with the largest surprise attack in history and now have the gall to pretend that this war is our fault. Shakor signed the death warrant for your Republic. No matter how long this war takes, it will end with the Republic broken and Shakor dead or exiled to his Jovian friends. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.29 13:49:00 - [47] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 29/07/2009 13:49:41 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri We worked towards peace for a century, warmonger. The Empire was talking about peace for a century. Slight difference, Admiral. Quote: You repayed us with the largest surprise attack in history and now have the gall to pretend that this war is our fault. I was talking about the consequences of thousands of years of wrong choices, not of the actions of the last year. Those thousands of years of wrong choices were yours, not ours. And I do not give fault for anything here. Who cares about "fault." You take your choices, you live with the consequences. As do we. Just do not pretend that you do not have a choice. You do.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.29 14:19:00 - [48] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 29/07/2009 14:19:37 Originally by: Arkady Sadik Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 29/07/2009 13:49:41 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri We worked towards peace for a century, warmonger. The Empire was talking about peace for a century. Slight difference, Admiral. They don't give out the Aidonis Award for simply talking about peace. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.29 14:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 29/07/2009 14:44:48 Originally by: Rodj Blake They don't give out the Aidonis Award for simply talking about peace. Indeed.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.29 15:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Arkady Sadik I was talking about the consequences of thousands of years of wrong choices, not of the actions of the last year. Those thousands of years of wrong choices were yours, not ours. Interesting Mr. Sadik, do you believe blame for sins (crimes) can carry across generations? Can descendants be held responsible for acts of their ancestors? MR. Sadik, you need to forgive to have peace. If you feel a responsibility to avenge every slight inflicted upon someone millennia in the past, then you will never stop avenging. They you simply do not desire peace. Let go Mr. Sadik, look towards the future, not towards the past. You cannot right the wrongs of the past by killing unrelated people in the present, you are merely creating more possible avengers. Do you possess the capability to forgive? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Zanco Ceal Amarr Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.07.29 16:55:00 - [51] thats great but you all seem to forget that Heartstone likes cheese.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.30 04:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Merdaneth Interesting Mr. Sadik, do you believe blame for sins (crimes) can carry across generations? I am still not talking about blame, nor about sins, nor about crimes. The actions of your ancestors are not yours. Your still have to live with the consequences of those actions - and that is not because I am evil-minded, cruel, or unforgiving. It's a simple observation. Quote: MR. Sadik, you need to forgive to have peace. You are talking to the wrong person, and you are ignoring the content of the discussion here. You are talking to the wrong person because I did not want this war, nor did I work towards this war - quite to the contrary, actually. But history is short, and trying to remember past the last year would be troublesome I guess? You are ignoring the content of the discussion because you, like the Admiral, would rather not hear what I said. I merely disclaimed the Admiral's - factually wrong - statement that he had no choice. You would rather talk endlessly about the injustive that was dealt to you by the evil Minmatar. Which is not surprising: To persuade yourself that you have no choice, you have to fabricate a reality in which that is true. You have to make yourself angry, let the little what you have left of your emotions run freely so you can believe with all your soul that this war, the situation we are in, is a situation of one-sided "fault", that the Matari have "sinned", and that you, the victims of this enormous, one-sided crime, indeed have no choice. You still do.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.30 08:55:00 - [53] Originally by: Arkady Sadik The actions of your ancestors are not yours. Your still have to live with the consequences of those actions - and that is not because I am evil-minded, cruel, or unforgiving. It's a simple observation. I'll quote you to my slaves next time they are in need of a whipping. Originally by: Arkady Sadik You are talking to the wrong person because I did not want this war, nor did I work towards this war - quite to the contrary, actually. But history is short, and trying to remember past the last year would be troublesome I guess? I did not want this war either. However, people change, perhaps you have changed as well? Originally by: Arkady Sadik You are ignoring the content of the discussion because you, like the Admiral, would rather not hear what I said. I merely disclaimed the Admiral's - factually wrong - statement that he had no choice. You would rather talk endlessly about the injustive that was dealt to you by the evil Minmatar. Which is not surprising: To persuade yourself that you have no choice, you have to fabricate a reality in which that is true. You have to make yourself angry, let the little what you have left of your emotions run freely so you can believe with all your soul that this war, the situation we are in, is a situation of one-sided "fault", that the Matari have "sinned", and that you, the victims of this enormous, one-sided crime, indeed have no choice. I believe what the admiral meant that, as a faithful Amarrian, he would have no choice. His other choice would be to stop being a faithful Amarrian. The Republic initiated this attack, the Republic is still continuing the attack. The Empire responded in kind. In war, both parties are victims. I personally do not believe the Republic committed a crime, I believe that the Empire is responsible for the Republic's attack. I believe we were to kind, to lenient, towards our unruly Matari children. When we first enslaved your culture, we were poor parents, we could and should have done better, and not raised so many immoral and irresponsible children. If offered the hand of peace, the Matari respond with war. I am working hard to correct that mistake. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.30 09:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Arkady Sadik The actions of your ancestors are not yours. Your still have to live with the consequences of those actions - and that is not because I am evil-minded, cruel, or unforgiving. It's a simple observation. I'll quote you to my slaves next time they are in need of a whipping. Oh Merdaneth, we have had such a nice discussion at such a high level, and you stoop that low - deliberately misrepresenting it in your reply in a pitiful attempt to ridicule your conversation partner. What happened to the stoic nature of yours? Did something tragic happen to you lately? Quote: However, people change, perhaps you have changed as well? Ah - to answer your question, then: I do indeed possess the ability to forgive. You can ask Ms. Coratana, Kazzzi, and quite a few others about that. And no, I have not changed. I still would have preferred this war not to start. I still would have preferred this war not to start like this. I also would have prefered the Amarr never to have taken any Minmatar slave All of those preferences are equally historical artifacts now, though. Quote: I believe what the admiral meant that, as a faithful Amarrian, he would have no choice. His other choice would be to stop being a faithful Amarrian. I think it's a bit rude to imply that all the faithful amarrians who have chosen to fight against the Empire of Oppression and for the Empire of Heideran are not faithful Amarrians, but I guess that is part of every extremist movement - you have to make sure that your extremism is well-guarded and not diluted by moderate forces, lest you might find yourself alone very quickly. But indeed. As you say, he does have a choice. It's his choice. He has to live with the consequences of his choice. As do all the loyalists of the Empire. You should now tell me that you will happily do so, and we can end this discussion. Just do not betray yourself to make your choice easier and assume that you do not have a choice. You do.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.30 09:48:00 - [55] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 30/07/2009 09:48:32 Originally by: Arkady Sadik I think it's a bit rude to imply that all the faithful amarrians who have chosen to fight against the Empire of Oppression and for the Empire of Heideran are not faithful Amarrians, but I guess that is part of every extremist movement - you have to make sure that your extremism is well-guarded and not diluted by moderate forces, lest you might find yourself alone very quickly. The Empire of Jamyl is the same as the Empire of Heideran. One can be faithful to both, or to neither. But one cannot choose between them. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.30 15:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Oh Merdaneth, we have had such a nice discussion at such a high level, and you stoop that low - deliberately misrepresenting it in your reply in a pitiful attempt to ridicule your conversation partner. What happened to the stoic nature of yours? Did something tragic happen to you lately? War happened mr. Sadik. To appear unaffected by the Republic aggression and the countless of dead would take a quite stoic man indeed. As for mispresentation, I do not believe that at all, unless you explain to me why it is perfectly ok to say such things against one group (Amarrians) but not against another (slaves). To not apply the same logic to both groups seem arbitrary. Originally by: Arkady Sadik Ah - to answer your question, then: I do indeed possess the ability to forgive. You can ask Ms. Coratana, Kazzzi, and quite a few others about that. Forgiveness is not conditional. Forgiving people that apologize and change their ways is not true forgiveness mr. Sadik. True forgiveness is to forgive even when another has not changed their ways or has not made reparations (yet). Originally by: Arkady Sadik I still would have preferred this war not to start. I still would have preferred this war not to start like this. I also would have prefered the Amarr never to have taken any Minmatar slave All of those preferences are equally historical artifacts now, though. History: yes. Artifacts: no. They are artifacts when they have no more than a distant symbolic meaning. In my eyes I see Matari killing daily in the name of something that happened millenia ago. Originally by: Arkady Sadik You should now tell me that you will happily do so, and we can end this discussion. Just do not betray yourself to make your choice easier and assume that you do not have a choice. You do. I don't and have never said so. This is the essence of my position about freedom. We all have choices, some are attractive, others are not. Some easy, others not. Slaves have choices, Amarrian Holders have choices. We are all equally free in that respect. That's why fighting 'for freedom' in general is folly. Everybody already has the freedom to determine one's actions. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2009.07.30 17:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Zanco Ceal thats great but you all seem to forget that Heartstone likes cheese. Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Heartstone I like Cheese. Goat, cow or sheep? But what kind of cheese does Heartstone like? It is a mystery that may never be solved! Yes. Yes, I am.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.30 18:16:00 - [58] when PIE gives it word, such word is law. they are known to abide by their honor. when NOIR gives it word, such word is law. They are known to abide by their honor. when both groups give conflicting words it creates paradox and confusion. The truth was, of course, that it was a different PIE. But before that revelation each pilot had to make a choice; the choice of whom to believe. Personally I believed PIE but I have prior internal knowledge of the Amarr bloc and I know their old-standard guidelines. But that is not an easy choice and it is entirely legitimate to assume NOIRÆs word as truth for those who do not know the measure of PIEÆs leadership but do know NOIRÆs honor code. Take those who believed PIE over NOIR as a compliment, and for NOIR the reverse is true as well. Honor to those who disserve it.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.30 18:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction lacks the will to truly commit to this war Two points 1. As a current Star Fraction pilot I take umbrage at the clumsy attempt to paint SF pilots as afraid or lacking in Will. I am not unknown in your circles and I have never be afraid of a fight nor have I ever been part of an organization that was cowardly. 2. Star FractionÆs efforts have been very effective in the field. I know this as even my own personal liquification of target vessels has shown effect on the ability for combined fleets to function. The effect (greater than me) from the long standing and highly capable Star Fraction has been shown by enemy members abandoning their corporations, by corporations withdrawing from the theater of war and by the success of operations from allies. Further the ability to chase targets into Imperial Territory has been very gratifying. Merdaneth, you specifically design your personal tactic to have near zero risk, as a result you have near zero effect on the actual battle. I invite you to have the will to commit to the war and put assets on the line. I may think well of you as a person, I may accept you have insightful opinions and a sharp mind, I may even have respect for you, but in this instance I can not respect a care bear PvPerÆs opinion of what is effective in the realm of goal acquisition nor swallow the hypocrisy of a Crusader pilot that refuses to take the same risk as his fellow pilots. IÆm sure yesterday PIE was well mollified that you shot yet another lone frigate in your interceptor while I melted another of your fellow pilotÆs geddons into golden dust.
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.07.30 19:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction lacks the will to truly commit to this war Two points 1. As a current Star Fraction pilot I take umbrage at the clumsy attempt to paint SF pilots as afraid or lacking in Will. I am not unknown in your circles and I have never be afraid of a fight nor have I ever been part of an organization that was cowardly. 2. Star FractionÆs efforts have been very effective in the field. I know this as even my own personal liquification of target vessels has shown effect on the ability for combined fleets to function. The effect (greater than me) from the long standing and highly capable Star Fraction has been shown by enemy members abandoning their corporations, by corporations withdrawing from the theater of war and by the success of operations from allies. Further the ability to chase targets into Imperial Territory has been very gratifying. Merdaneth, you specifically design your personal tactic to have near zero risk, as a result you have near zero effect on the actual battle. I invite you to have the will to commit to the war and put assets on the line. I may think well of you as a person, I may accept you have insightful opinions and a sharp mind, I may even have respect for you, but in this instance I can not respect a care bear PvPerÆs opinion of what is effective in the realm of goal acquisition nor swallow the hypocrisy of a Crusader pilot that refuses to take the same risk as his fellow pilots. IÆm sure yesterday PIE was well mollified that you shot yet another lone frigate in your interceptor while I melted another of your fellow pilotÆs geddons into golden dust. Well i would be interested what coprorations in amarr miltia were destroyed by SF and forced to leave as SF is one one of the smallest alliances with people barely performing their duties. Speaking about impact. Star Fraction cant even engage amarr miltia fleet couse cant field enough numbers to counter average roaming gang. So what ever you think about any kind of impact is completly wrong. You add numbers to hostile fleets against us but thats all.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.30 20:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss 1. As a current Star Fraction pilot I take umbrage at the clumsy attempt to paint SF pilots as afraid or lacking in Will. I am not unknown in your circles and I have never be afraid of a fight nor have I ever been part of an organization that was cowardly. Mr. Bliss, SF pilots do not lack the will to fight, on the contrary. They merely make the choice not to fight in the arena where it matters, but in an arena of their own making. SF lacks the will to change their preferred arena. SF lacks the will to join the militia. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss 2. Star FractionÆs efforts have been very effective in the field. I know this as even my own personal liquification of target vessels has shown effect on the ability for combined fleets to function. The effect (greater than me) from the long standing and highly capable Star Fraction has been shown by enemy members abandoning their corporations, by corporations withdrawing from the theater of war and by the success of operations from allies. Further the ability to chase targets into Imperial Territory has been very gratifying. Perhaps mr. Bliss. Perhaps some corporation operate in the same arena as SF and thus can be truly affected by them. I do not operate in that arena, and I believe most pilots of PIE and other loyalists do not. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Merdaneth, you specifically design your personal tactic to have near zero risk, as a result you have near zero effect on the actual battle. I invite you to have the will to commit to the war and put assets on the line. I choose my tactics for effect. However, losing one ship a day is fairly common for me due to the risks I take to defend the Empire. Even today I was shot down while fighting with Sasawong over a installation in Frerstorn. There is rarely something important to me under threat when I SF ships are in space. In case you haven't noticed, there is a war going on and I'm not going to attack you 'for fun'. Today SF pilots had a rare chance to force me to fight in Kamela, as I was busy defending a Amarr installation there. Unfortunately your pilots took a lot of time to get support into place (Claymore and even a Titan were called in as support), and it took time to refit their Assault Frigate especially against our ships, and the AF only started its attack run after the installation had already been defended. Even then, because the AF was fit for defense rather than offense, it still failed to take down a PIE vessel even though it was engaged with our ships for several minutes. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss I may think well of you as a person, I may accept you have insightful opinions and a sharp mind, I may even have respect for you, but in this instance I can not respect a care bear PvPerÆs opinion of what is effective in the realm of goal acquisition nor swallow the hypocrisy of a Crusader pilot that refuses to take the same risk as his fellow pilots. IÆm sure yesterday PIE was well mollified that you shot yet another lone frigate in your interceptor while I melted another of your fellow pilotÆs geddons into golden dust. Mr. Bliss, what is a 'pvper'? I've many failings and areas of improvement in the eyes PIE command, however my combat ability is not high on that list. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.30 22:45:00 - [62] Originally by: Merdaneth Mr. Bliss, what is a 'pvper'? It is an abbreviation for Pilot Vs Pilot Combat Flier, a pod captain that chooses to focus their clone life on war directly against other pod captains, rather than say the safer plush toy market. That has since spawned further slang such as Care Bear PvPer which combines the outward semblance of Pilot vs Pilot Combat Flier with a desire for maximum safety and minimum risk such as the afore mentioned Plush Toy market (stuffed slaver dogs with Brutor slavedoll chew toy, for exsample). Originally by: Merdaneth I've many failings and areas of improvement in the eyes PIE command, however my combat ability is not high on that list. I do not doubt your combat ability in a Crusader, I am sure you fit your ship and clone to take maximum effect and youÆve had years of practice. You can fly that bug very well. You can be a knat that nips at the underbelly of your enemy. All well and good. It is, however, a significantly safer way to battle than in something capable of exacting vengeance against an opponent on the level necessary to debilitate a foe or defend an installation. You are not alone in this choice of safety over effectiveness, indeed IÆm more likely in the minority on this one. But I made comment on this choice of style as it draws a parallel to your claims of Jericho's lack of will to commit deeply to the fight when you merely zip around in a ship designed for its escaping ability.
Mra Rednu Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.31 08:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss zip around in a ship designed for its escaping ability. Hmm, well never heard that definition of a interceptor before ! Truth is it's one of the most dangerous ships around and perhaps that scares you ?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.31 09:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss It is an abbreviation for Pilot Vs Pilot Combat Flier, a pod captain that chooses to focus their clone life on war directly against other pod captains, rather than say the safer plush toy market. Perhaps Pod vs. Pod pilot would be a better designation, as I have the feeling that you don't include those who combat ships flown by non-pod pilots in this category. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss That has since spawned further slang such as Care Bear PvPer which combines the outward semblance of Pilot vs Pilot Combat Flier with a desire for maximum safety and minimum risk. Given a fixed goal, how do you handle risk mr. Bliss? Do you maximize your risk, you don't take measures for your safety? Sometimes I get the feeling that SF pilots consider this war some kind of sports event or perhaps game. Then SF pilots call out to other pilots to meet them on SF terms, but at the same time are happy and proud to stack the deck in their favor. You are either at war, or you are a cheating and unfair sports contestant mr. Bliss, what is it? Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss It is, however, a significantly safer way to battle than in something capable of exacting vengeance against an opponent on the level necessary to debilitate a foe or defend an installation. You are not alone in this choice of safety over effectiveness, indeed IÆm more likely in the minority on this one. Vengeance? How barbaric of you. My duty is to the empire, personal vendettas are irrelevant. Also, in my experience pilots that claim to fly 'unsafe' like you do, rarely actually fly unsafe. Safety, since when are smaller ships 'safer' then larger ships? If you are looking for pilots that practice safety, take a look at the SF Carrier fleets at docking range of stations. Everyone knows that smaller ships are more easily destroyed than larger ships. The only advantage smaller ships offer is that if they encounter vastly superior forces they are more easily able to disengage. What do your ships do in the face of vastly superior forces mr. Bliss? Do you fly your large ships knowingly into a vastly superior hostile fleet? I doubt that. You may not be a carebear, but I believe you are a 'sports pilot' mr. Bliss. You fly for sport, and having good match results matters to you more than any external goal. Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss But I made comment on this choice of style as it draws a parallel to your claims of Jericho's lack of will to commit deeply to the fight when you merely zip around in a ship designed for its escaping ability. Merdaneth laughs I've heard people call my Crusader many things, but it was never noted for its 'escaping ability'. Assault Inty is among those I especially like. My fit is specifically made to destroy hostiles, not escape them. I routinely engage and destroy frigates, interceptors, destroyers, interdictors, cruisers, hacs, recons, assault frigates, battlecruisers, stealth bombers, electronic attack frigates and covop vessels. There is no ship I am able to fly that allows me to engage and destroy such a wide range of ships. The Crusader is my workhorse ship: suited for defending installations, attacking installations, fleet operations, solo operations, tackling, scouting, interdiction, interception, operations behind enemy lines and general ship destruction. Unfortunately, due to the nature of my operations I tend to lose about one Crusader on each day I fly missions. That is why I fit my ships as cheaply as possible while trying to maintain optimal effectiveness. It is also why I don't make use of expensive implants. I know my duty often requires me to sacrifice my ship for the Empire. I take risks, just not unneccessary risks, and honestly, mr. Bliss, how would me engaging SF ships in Kamela benefit the Empire? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.07.31 11:51:00 - [65] Main reason why Star Fraction dont wants to join the miltia is not their independence but if they would field all experienced players to miltia around 10-20 pilots nobody would stay in Star Fraction and it would be dead empty. If SF would be an active aliance they would create an expeditionary corporation long time ago but they dont have people for that. Pushing on CSM to create posibility to add allliances to FW was just another poor and empty attempt so they dont need to reveal in what sorry situation they are. Bottom line is Star FRaction can resort only to hit and run tactics couse as one of the weakest alliances they lack the manpower. If they would have active more then 20% of their alliance they would engage militia fleets looong time ago.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 12:23:00 - [66] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 31/07/2009 12:23:18 Originally by: Nur AlHuda Main reason why Star Fraction dont wants to join the miltia is not their independence but if they would field all experienced players to miltia around 10-20 pilots nobody would stay in Star Fraction and it would be dead empty. Why exactly you believe you know better than Free Captains why Free Captains do what they choose escapes me. Or is this simply more poor propaganda from an increasingly beleaguered 24th Crusade? What you have stumbled upon is the fact that Star Fraction is an alliance of around a hundred pilots maximum - united by their belief in the radical freespace agenda and anti imperialist movement. Yes of course these pilots could all shift their allegience to a corporation within the TLF and wreak havoc on the 24th Crusade in the Bleaks and Devoid warzone but we would also be taking our collective heels off the Amarrian logistics and supply throat in Amarrian hisec. Quote: If SF would be an active aliance they would create an expeditionary corporation long time ago but they dont have people for that. We had people enough to annhilate 24th Crusade affiliate hisec research and production POS with nothing but our own roster thus indicating that no 24th Crusade corporations can count on protecting their facilties in Amarrian or Caldari hisec anywhere in the star cluster last night Nur AlHuda. This is something the TLF is generally unable to do due to the interference of Amarrian and Caldari police forces and local levies. Quote: Bottom line is Star FRaction can resort only to hit and run tactics couse as one of the weakest alliances they lack the manpower. If they would have active more then 20% of their alliance they would engage militia fleets looong time ago. Hit and run. Assassination. Special ops. Sabotage, psychological warfare, cunning traps and feints. Baits, hotdrops, unconventional tactics and straight-up slugfests. Thats the Star Fraction for you. Why would we wish to restrict our freedom of action and allow the 24th Crusade to hide safely in Amarrian hisec? We come for your mission-runners, your researchers, your industrialists, your ice-miners and your most cowardly supporters. While you are fighting in complexes with frigates we're burning your homes and demolishing your cathedrals back in Domain. You thought to reclaim space and enslave the minmatar? You aren't safe in your own backyard. Watch out! That shadow on the sun might be a Star Fraction raider come to kill your friends! 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Nur AlHuda Amarr Callide Vulpis	Posted - 2009.07.31 14:23:00 - [67] Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 31/07/2009 14:23:54 Originally by: Jade Constantine stuff Yet again you failed to provide any facts. All your posts are full of hatred and anyone can feel the desperate situation in what Star Fraction currently is. JC: We had people enough to annhilate 24th Crusade affiliate hisec research and production POS Where and when - proof that it was affilated corp. And you dont wreck havoc one miltia as you cant engage the fleet. Killing one member that is under war dec is not wreacking havoc. Especialy if the fleet has 30 members. Star Fraction are on of the most unimportant alliances in the eve star cluster - that is a public knowledge so your opinion about your impact is not valid.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 14:32:00 - [68] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 31/07/2009 14:32:37 Originally by: Nur AlHuda Yet again you failed to provide any facts. All your posts are full of hatred and anyone can feel the desperate situation in what Star Fraction currently is. You are quite the comedian. Quote: Where and when - proof that it was affilated corp. I'm sure you know. Quote: And you dont wreck havoc one miltia as you cant engage the fleet. Killing one member that is under war dec is not wreacking havoc. Especialy if the fleet has 30 members. I have personally commanded operations that have sent the entire 24th Crusade grand fleet to dock in hisec through fear of our intediction. You and I both know that is true. Hell, we've destroyed 24th Crusade fleets without even firing a shot. That really takes some moxy! Realistically Nur Alhuda. If we were at war with the entire 24th Crusade we'd be slaughtering you night after night in the most merciless fashion imaginable. You know it, we know it. That is why the corporations we do wardec are almost never supported by rank and file of the militia. They are left to die alone. That is your shame and the proof of the situation. Quote: Star Fraction are on of the most unimportant alliances in the eve star cluster - that is a public knowledge so your opinion about your impact is not valid. "public knowledge" amongst worthless dogs perhaps. But then I'm not in the habit of polling beaten mangy mutts for their opinions of space warfare! 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.31 15:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Jade Constantine Why exactly you believe you know better than Free Captains why Free Captains do what they choose escapes me... You invoke your religion of "freedom" more than even the most devout Amarrian invokes God. How much freedom do you really have when you have to lean on the crutch of dogma so heavily? Originally by: Jade Constantine We had people enough to annhilate 24th Crusade affiliate hisec research and production POS with nothing but our own roster thus indicating that no 24th Crusade corporations .. Blah blah blah. She is referring to a corporation that did as SF wanted and left 24th, leaving members who wanted to continue the good fight to their own devices. Proof positive that their much publicised campaign to force corporations away from the war is just another lie as submitting and actually leaving does absolutely nothing. I guess destroying property belonging to a neutral entity with NO TIES to the 24IC employing mainly non-combat pilots in high-security space is right up SF's alley. Wouldn't want to put any of those "free captains" at risk after all. Originally by: Jade Constantine Hit and run. Assassination. Special ops. Sabotage, psychological warfare, cunning traps and feints. Baits, hotdrops, unconventional tactics and straight-up slugfests. So pretty much acting out your dreams of being part of the rumoured elite death squads that Shakor has trawling Minmatar space to "silence" any dissenters. Taking pride and engaging in backstabbing and murder is thankfully something we faithful stopped generations ago, the ugliest of human behaviour. SF are nothing but self-important thugs (ie. pirates without honour), trust their word at your own peril.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 15:55:00 - [70] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida I guess destroying property belonging to a neutral entity with NO TIES to the 24IC employing mainly non-combat pilots in high-security space is right up SF's alley. Pimbeka Mining Corp was a long term member of the 24th Crusade hosting amongst other notables as Nephelim Xeno. They left the 24th Crusade last week as a result of sustained pressure from the SF wardec but elected to conduct no diplomacy and offered no concession on their exit. As a result we opted to send them on their way with a special send-off. Nephelim Xeno turned up to the reinforcement battle with a 24th Crusade logistics vessel and attempted to give support to his ex-corp mates without succcess. Pimbeka Mining Corp will remain -10 standings to the Star Fraction until they publicly renounce their support for the tyrant Jamyl Sarum and the corrupt 24th Crusade militia. They are on notice that any future overt engagement with 24th Crusade forces in the Bleaklands/Devoid warzone may lead to a resumption of formal wardec and additional military action from the Star Fraction. It is the height of foolishness for the dog Yeshta Yoshida to describe an organization that harboured remote repping of our enemies and direct military aggression against SF vessels as "neutral". Once they made their allegiences and violence clear they have been tagged as enemies. They will remain that way until they initiate diplomatic resolution of the matter and seek our counsel on how this can be achieved. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 16:09:00 - [71] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida I guess destroying property belonging to a neutral entity with NO TIES to the 24IC employing mainly non-combat pilots in high-security space is right up SF's alley. No ties, eh? Strange how certain 24th Imperial Crusade pilots appeared on the scene while we were laying waste the property of an entity that was a member of the 24th Imperial Crusade, and an active participant in its operations, when the existence of this property and plans for its destruction were laid down. No ties, eh? So no ties to the militia when members of that corporation voluntarily join the 24th Imperial Crusade to fight in its ranks while maintaining links to a corporation that was in the militia and, seemingly, only left to function as a logistical auxiliary outside the militia. No ties. This is what PIE, laughably, calls 'no ties'. But why should I be surprised? PIE has claimed that organisations set up by leading members of PIE have 'no ties' to them as well, it's par for the course really. Membership in the militia is merely one fact by which we can judge the activity of corporations and in who's support and favour that activity is operating. Support for the evil designs of the Amarr Empire is not limited to membership in its vile crusader miltia. Take this as a warning, if you wish, that no-one is going to avoid the consequences of their actions by mere legalistic and false-faced devices of changing the labels they happen to wear from one day to the next. These people did not renounce their support for the Amarr Empire and, indeed, put certain of their combat pilots to work within its government-controlled milita corps. These people were not neutrals to us. They had well-earned their hostile status. Why should we have halted our planned operations? They gave us no reason whatever to do so. They did not seek a diplomatic resolution at any time. They were enemies and supporters of enemies. Their assets were valid targets and we took the steps required to destroy them. But PIE say 'no ties' because a label changes. This I will remember. I fancy others will too. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 16:17:00 - [72] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida You invoke your religion of "freedom" more than even the most devout Amarrian invokes God. How much freedom do you really have when you have to lean on the crutch of dogma so heavily? A member of Star Fraction is oft referred to internally and externally as a FreeCaptain much as you are referred to Captain of the PIE Inc. organisation. Star Fraction is also not the only organisation to use this term for it's pilots. Would you care to enlighten us as to how you believe we need to cling to any dogma more than any other? That were are driven by our ideals is true of course and is something we would never be ashamed about. That you think that holding close to one's ideals and beliefs is a bad thing speaks more about you than your attempts are character portrayal speaks about us. Originally by: Veshta Yoshida She is referring to a corporation that did as SF wanted and left 24th, leaving members who wanted to continue the good fight to their own devices. Proof positive that their much publicised campaign to force corporations away from the war is just another lie as submitting and actually leaving does absolutely nothing. I guess destroying property belonging to a neutral entity with NO TIES to the 24IC employing mainly non-combat pilots in high-security space is right up SF's alley. Wouldn't want to put any of those "free captains" at risk after all. I'll be quite honest I barely know where to start with this block of text. You honestly think that because an organisation removes itself from the militia it proves conclusively it no longer supports that Militia? The aforementioned corporation did indeed leave the Amarrian militia. To date no communication anywhere we have seen shows that their ideals or goals have changed. They have no declared they no longer support the crusaders of the 24th Imperial Crusade. They have not signaled any intention to be anything but a friend to the Imperial Militia. This is especially apparent when you look at the fact that when they were under attack by our members after leaving the crusade that a number of Amarr Militia pilots went to help them. That they maintain friendships with past comrades is of no surprise. I would expect nothing less of any decent human being that he still calls a brother brother but this bites both ways. Without a formal declaration of cessation of support for the Milita how can you expect us to discern whether their motivations have changed or not? Are we now expected to be able to determine the wishes of an enemy by the words he doesn't speak? Yoshida you seem to give us too much credit here. Originally by: Veshta Yoshida So pretty much acting out your dreams of being part of the rumoured elite death squads that Shakor has trawling Minmatar space to "silence" any dissenters. Our dreams, Yoshida, have nothing to do with Shakor or any fairytale Amarr pilots have created to scare their children. The last thing we want is to hear silence as we travel. We want to hear screams. Screams of Victory. Screams of Freedom. Screams of passion enacted. Screams of wishes come true. Screams of the free peoples of the cluster throwing aside their chains and embracing their future as only a free man can. Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Taking pride and engaging in backstabbing and murder is thankfully something we faithful stopped generations ago, the ugliest of human behaviour. The only way I will be stabbing you in the back Yoshida is if you are running away when I decide to do so. As to the "faithful" having stopped "ugly" human behaviors... well I don't believe I need to even bother going into this. I am sure an Ushra'Khan pilot will be along shortly to explain to you the ugliness of slavery. Originally by: Veshta Yoshida SF are nothing but self-important thugs (ie. pirates without honour), trust their word at your own peril. What we say we do. Call us pirates, call us thugs. Frankly we don't care what you think. Heartstone. ---
lucifers widow	Posted - 2009.07.31 19:25:00 - [73] Originally by: Heartstone Frankly we don't care what you think. Heartstone. With this and the two posts above I beg to differ, seems you lot DO care what people think !
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 19:28:00 - [74] Originally by: lucifers widow With this and the two posts above I beg to differ, seems you lot DO care what people think ! We care what people think. We don't care what dogs think. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
lucifers widow	Posted - 2009.07.31 19:42:00 - [75] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: lucifers widow With this and the two posts above I beg to differ, seems you lot DO care what people think ! We care what people think. We don't care what dogs think. I bet that sounded better in you're head.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 19:55:00 - [76] Actually it sounded pretty much the same. And more to the point its entirely accurate. Why would we care what cowards and dogs think? 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
lucifers widow	Posted - 2009.07.31 20:44:00 - [77] I wasn't aware we we're talking about the Minmatar's, but even then I wouldn't call them cowards and dogs if I we're you, just call them what you usually do, a Meatshield.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.07.31 22:18:00 - [78] "coward" and "dog" seem to be the only two insults pilot Constantine bothers with nowadays. mind you, I've always been mildly confused as to why "dog" is supposed to be insulting. After all, dogs are loyal, honest, friendly and dependable. There's more virtue in a dog than vice, I'd have said. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.31 22:40:00 - [79] because a man is a man, or rather should be. To act like a craven who licks boots and begs for scraps may be fine fare for lower forms of life (and even cute with those large puppy-dog eyes) but it is no way for a person to be.
lucifers widow	Posted - 2009.08.01 06:49:00 - [80] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss because a man is a man, or rather should be. To act like a craven who licks boots and begs for scraps may be fine fare for lower forms of life (and even cute with those large puppy-dog eyes) but it is no way for a person to be. Quiet dog, wait for you're (puppet)master to speak !
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.01 13:15:00 - [81] Originally by: lucifers widow Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss because a man is a man, or rather should be. To act like a craven who licks boots and begs for scraps may be fine fare for lower forms of life (and even cute with those large puppy-dog eyes) but it is no way for a person to be. Quiet dog, wait for you're (puppet)master to speak ! really? You thought you had the reputation to pull that line off?
lucifers widow	Posted - 2009.08.01 14:16:00 - [82] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss really? You thought you had the reputation to pull that line off? Oh dear, you actually worship them don't you, how pitiful to let oneself to be enslaved like that especially when one has a choice ! Least you not got a lot of competition to get a little pat on the head or a treat for being a good little follower.
Tomahawk Bliss Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.01 15:54:00 - [83] Originally by: lucifers widow Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss really? You thought you had the reputation to pull that line off? Oh dear, you actually worship them don't you, how pitiful to let oneself to be enslaved like that especially when one has a choice ! Least you not got a lot of competition to get a little pat on the head or a treat for being a good little follower. look, you are some unknown who doesn't even fly in the battle; share your opinion (though it is always hostile vomit) but don't threaten. You look like an idiot when you make a threat to me and can't, ever, follow up on it. You don't have the rep to do it, you don't have the ability to enforce it, you have nothing but these burning posts. Walk a little more tentatively if you are just going to be an ALTernate identity playing at being a pundit. Offer cogent responses and logical rejoinders, or keep spewing and looking stupid. it is your call.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.02 11:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Stitcher "coward" and "dog" seem to be the only two insults pilot Constantine bothers with nowadays. mind you, I've always been mildly confused as to why "dog" is supposed to be insulting. After all, dogs are loyal, honest, friendly and dependable. There's more virtue in a dog than vice, I'd have said. I think "dog" sums up the Amarrian loyalists quite nicely. They do have some admirable (if a little misguided) traits, however if you wish to understand the power of this remark simply ask yourself; "Do I wish to live as a dog, or as a Man?".
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.02 21:51:00 - [85] Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Stitcher "coward" and "dog" seem to be the only two insults pilot Constantine bothers with nowadays. mind you, I've always been mildly confused as to why "dog" is supposed to be insulting. After all, dogs are loyal, honest, friendly and dependable. There's more virtue in a dog than vice, I'd have said. I think "dog" sums up the Amarrian loyalists quite nicely. They do have some admirable (if a little misguided) traits, however if you wish to understand the power of this remark simply ask yourself; "Do I wish to live as a dog, or as a Man?". I think you may be getting a bit too literal in your interpretation of the insult. But other than that it is a fair statement. Even the aspects of a dog that other races see as negative values are considered positive values in the Empire. So the insult really carries little weight and in fact can be considered a compliment. Calling a loyal servant of the Empire a dog because we are subservient to our masters is like me trying to insult you by calling you a bird because birds are free. So the question then becomes would you rather live like a dog or a bird? Some opt for a dog's life some opt for a bird's life... and then they try to wipe each other out for some reason. Wait... what's this thread about?
The Yzzerman Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.08.02 22:53:00 - [86] I just ahve to say latley amarr fleets tend to lose, so battlestar crusader get your act toghter... Over and out
BattleStar Crusader Amarr Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.03 12:39:00 - [87] Edited by: BattleStar Crusader on 03/08/2009 12:42:16
BattleStar Crusader Amarr Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.03 12:42:00 - [88] I am no longer the commander of the fleets.
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.03 12:49:00 - [89] Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Stitcher "coward" and "dog" seem to be the only two insults pilot Constantine bothers with nowadays. mind you, I've always been mildly confused as to why "dog" is supposed to be insulting. After all, dogs are loyal, honest, friendly and dependable. There's more virtue in a dog than vice, I'd have said. I think "dog" sums up the Amarrian loyalists quite nicely. They do have some admirable (if a little misguided) traits, however if you wish to understand the power of this remark simply ask yourself; "Do I wish to live as a dog, or as a Man?". "Man"? Aren't you supposed to be defining yourselves as "Superindependent morally unambiguous Overmen"? --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.03 13:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Davlos "Man"? Aren't you supposed to be defining yourselves as "Superindependent morally unambiguous Overmen"? I think the term your looking for is transhumanists. I should probably also mention that we do not intend to be any kind of 'Overmen', or masters. We seek to liberate the universe from such people.
Dame Death Minmatar The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.08.03 13:14:00 - [91] Originally by: BattleStar Crusader I am no longer the commander of the fleets. Sad to hear I suggest they put you back in that postian as soon as possible Logs of a Brutor
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.03 14:09:00 - [92] Originally by: ChipMo Originally by: Davlos "Man"? Aren't you supposed to be defining yourselves as "Superindependent morally unambiguous Overmen"? I think the term your looking for is transhumanists. I should probably also mention that we do not intend to be any kind of 'Overmen', or masters. We seek to liberate the universe from such people. Really now!? In liberation, do you not seek to first dominate the wills and ideas of the poor folk you seek to unshackle? 'Tis the tragedy of Revolutions. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.03 14:52:00 - [93] Edited by: ChipMo on 03/08/2009 14:53:49 Originally by: Davlos Really now!? In liberation, do you not seek to first dominate the wills and ideas of the poor folk you seek to unshackle? 'Tis the tragedy of Revolutions. Not necessarily, my own campaign is based on undermining the oppressive way of life offered by nationalistic alliances, rather than directly conscripting people into our number. This often leads to a fair bit of direct conflict however this is openly accepted on both sides. In the bigger picture, it should become apparent that the space holders are a hindrance to post-human progression, not the facilitators that they pretend to be. We don't force anyone into conflict, just take a look at our diplomacy thread, giving the Amarrian Militia's affiliates fair warning of what is to come if they do not give up their territory hoarding ways. Such efforts on our part are generally met with laughter & mockery... I can't help notice the explosions of ships and the slaughter of pod pilots swiftly mutes this attitude. I seem to have drifted away from your point a little there, sorry about that. Basically it is only the national military organizations and aggressive collectives who will be dominated by us. The progression of our campaign will only benefit the peaceful and industrial people of the galaxy.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.03 15:26:00 - [94] Originally by: ChipMo Not necessarily, my own campaign is based on undermining the oppressive way of life offered by nationalistic alliances, rather than directly conscripting people into our number. This often leads to a fair bit of direct conflict however this is openly accepted on both sides. In the bigger picture, it should become apparent that the space holders are a hindrance to post-human progression, not the facilitators that they pretend to be. If that's your view of the bigger picture, then why do you by your actions support one of the largest space-holding entities in the cluster? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.03 15:35:00 - [95] Originally by: Rodj Blake If that's your view of the bigger picture, then why do you by your actions support one of the largest space-holding entities in the cluster? I agree with the rest of our free captains that the Amarr Empire is particularly regressive in its attitudes and has the most evident hunger for expansion of it's empire. As such it is a fitting target to focus our pressure on. I also believe the Amarrians to be the most adverse to changing their imperialistic ways, where as the Minmatar Republic for example have started at least looking in the direction of free space through affiliation with the Thukker Tribe.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.03 15:50:00 - [96] Originally by: Rodj Blake If that's your view of the bigger picture, then why do you by your actions support one of the largest space-holding entities in the cluster? You're referring, so I suppose, to the Minmatar Republic and I fear making the same old mistake of translating opposition to the Amarr Empire into unreserved and uncritical support for its enemies, including the Minmatar Republic. The position with regard to the Minmatar Republic, or as it appears to now consider itself, the Tribal Republic that includes the Thukker Tribe as well as all other free Minmatar tribes, is quite simple: the Minmatar people are willing to engage in dialogue on the issues that concern us most. You see, this is where you can't have it both ways. People like you, certainly people in your own paramilitary organization, like to hoot and bray that the Star Fraction is 'obsessed' with violence and claim that we never engage in diplomacy and always use force to get our way. It's nonsense and nonsense many times over at that. Of course, the relevant example here is that we don't consider it necessary to use force to oppose those aspects of the Minmatar's Tribal Republic that we regard as undesirable. Indeed, if we believe that the use of force against the Tribal Republic and its militia is unnecessary in terms of our long-term goals, as we currently do, it would be an absolute betrayal of our philosophy to nevertheless resort to it. Perhaps the use of force might be one way of achieving our aims when it comes to the Minmatar. The point is arguable at the very least. But it's not, in our opinion, the only or most efficient means, and thus it would be immoral to use it. I realise you will engage in your usual attempt to pull apart this simple statement and reassemble it in some mish-mash designed to make it appear to be hypocrisy but, frankly, I don't much care. Thinking people are alive to your odious calumnies by now. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
BattleStar Crusader Amarr Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:43:00 - [97] It more out of a choice for the better being of the corp. I have been beged to go back though :P by the other side aswell
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.03 17:58:00 - [98] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 03/08/2009 17:58:13 Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake If that's your view of the bigger picture, then why do you by your actions support one of the largest space-holding entities in the cluster? You're referring, so I suppose, to the Minmatar Republic and I fear making the same old mistake of translating opposition to the Amarr Empire into unreserved and uncritical support for its enemies, including the Minmatar Republic. The position with regard to the Minmatar Republic, or as it appears to now consider itself, the Tribal Republic that includes the Thukker Tribe as well as all other free Minmatar tribes, is quite simple: the Minmatar people are willing to engage in dialogue on the issues that concern us most. The last time I checked the Minmatar Republic and the Thukker Tribe both held territory and the Republic's occupation of that territory was recognised by CONCORD. The idea that they would be ludicrous to stop governing any of their territory simply because the SF thinks it might be nice is, frankly, ludicrous. So what other ideas that concern you are the Minmatar people willing to engage you in dialogue over? Quote: You see, this is where you can't have it both ways. People like you, certainly people in your own paramilitary organization, like to hoot and bray that the Star Fraction is 'obsessed' with violence and claim that we never engage in diplomacy and always use force to get our way. It's nonsense and nonsense many times over at that. Of course, the relevant example here is that we don't consider it necessary to use force to oppose those aspects of the Minmatar's Tribal Republic that we regard as undesirable. Indeed, if we believe that the use of force against the Tribal Republic and its militia is unnecessary in terms of our long-term goals, as we currently do, it would be an absolute betrayal of our philosophy to nevertheless resort to it. Perhaps the use of force might be one way of achieving our aims when it comes to the Minmatar. The point is arguable at the very least. But it's not, in our opinion, the only or most efficient means, and thus it would be immoral to use it. On the contrary, I have in the past often said that the SF are willing to compromise their beliefs when short-term political expediency demands it. Indeed, similar compromises from JF go back to even before the formation of SF! If you truly believe that the Minmatar Republic would adopt SF ideology and therefore give up all of its territory without a fight, then I suspect that you are either stupid or insane. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
The Yzzerman Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:23:00 - [99] Originally by: BattleStar Crusader It more out of a choice for the better being of the corp. I have been beged to go back though :P by the other side aswell Yee i would also like too thx amarr for the last 2 nights battles, i must say tho that lag fix did it for me
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:23:00 - [100] The Star Fraction takes a long-term view of these things, Blake, I would have thought as an Amarrian you might appreciate this but then the paramilitary mindset often deviates from the norm. I would also point out that the holding of territory per se is not, contrary to your misrepresentation of things, the main concern of the Star Fraction. Rather, it is the manner in which the territory in question is administered. This is a nuance that you deliberately wish to elide but I am afraid it is essential to understanding our position with respect to any given entity or polity, territory-holding or not. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.04 12:14:00 - [101] Originally by: ChipMo Not necessarily, my own campaign is based on undermining the oppressive way of life offered by nationalistic alliances ...... progression of our campaign will only benefit the peaceful and industrial people of the galaxy. You think that by causing explosions amongst the various nations' armed forces, you could benefit the 'peaceful and industrial' populace of the cluster? How? The armed forces operate at the expense of the people. Causing more explosions amongst those armed forces will only incur more costs in replacements, and inflict a greater burden of taxation amongst the populace. They certainly wouldn't be thanking you for your kind and benevolent efforts of subsequently, raising their taxes. You miss out the point that in the end, the state of all four nations exist by the tacit consent of the governed. Certainly, it could be described that the downtrodden citizens of the Caldari State are not necessarily the most free-giving in tacit approvals, but it has already, been ingrained into their culture to value stability and prosperity for the masses above the self. Slaying their soldiers will only serve to enrage the populace further in greater nationalistic fury (which you are attempting to combat!), and it wouldn't aid your 'Cause' any one bit. Introduce a fierce sense of individualism amongst the Caldari, and victory is handed to you on a silver platter. But of course, your Dear Leader Constantine would scoff at that. This is but one example of how your 'Cause' could easily achieve victory. But unfortunately, your leadership is too short-sighted and too fixated upon glory with this gunship "diplomacy" you claim to espouse. I'm sorry. Your argument does not convince me. I could have that uttered out of the Star Fraction's "Little Red Book" by any other 'Freecaptain' than yourself. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.04 13:15:00 - [102] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/08/2009 13:16:32 Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction takes a long-term view of these things, Blake, I would have thought as an Amarrian you might appreciate this but then the paramilitary mindset often deviates from the norm. I would also point out that the holding of territory per se is not, contrary to your misrepresentation of things, the main concern of the Star Fraction. Rather, it is the manner in which the territory in question is administered. This is a nuance that you deliberately wish to elide but I am afraid it is essential to understanding our position with respect to any given entity or polity, territory-holding or not. The Cosmopolite Long-term eh? How long-term are we talking about here? How long do you think it will take for the Republic to adopt your philosophies? And how will you supporting the current centralising regime in the Republic help to move them towards a more decentralised model of governance? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 13:35:00 - [103] Edited by: ChipMo on 04/08/2009 13:36:40 Originally by: Davlos You think that by causing explosions amongst the various nations' armed forces, you could benefit the 'peaceful and industrial' populace of the cluster? How? The armed forces operate at the expense of the people. Causing more explosions amongst those armed forces will only incur more costs in replacements, and inflict a greater burden of taxation amongst the populace. They certainly wouldn't be thanking you for your kind and benevolent efforts of subsequently, raising their taxes. I said our cause will benefit peaceful and industrial people. As in, the result of removing nationalism and boarders makes life simple and more profitable for honest hard working people. The method we bring this about may not directly aid their lives but we do not hinder it in any way. It is the grand delusion of the state that people must pay taxes and fund the upkeep of this unnecessary entity. If our actions force governments to up taxes, keep conscripting soldiers and expanding their armies it becomes more and more evident to the population how futile the modern nation or empire is in the face of a free thinking pod pilot. Originally by: Davlos You miss out the point that in the end, the state of all four nations exist by the tacit consent of the governed. Certainly, it could be described that the downtrodden citizens of the Caldari State are not necessarily the most free-giving in tacit approvals, but it has already, been ingrained into their culture to value stability and prosperity for the masses above the self. Slaying their soldiers will only serve to enrage the populace further in greater nationalistic fury (which you are attempting to combat!), and it wouldn't aid your 'Cause' any one bit. Introduce a fierce sense of individualism amongst the Caldari, and victory is handed to you on a silver platter. But of course, your Dear Leader Constantine would scoff at that. I disagree with your assessment of the Caldari. Back before I became a pod pilot I was a part of the industrial machine one thing we all hated was the taxes and tariffs that go along with everyday Caldari buisness. I heard rumors of "Anarchists fighting the state", "trouble causers" and "terrorists", but we paid little heed. It was only when I had command of my own vessel; out in the vastness of space I was able to see the Caldari state for what it was. Now I'm fairly ingrained in the fight to free the galaxy one empire at a time but I still remember those days as if it were yesterday. I and my comrades were not happy, they are still not happy but they cannot see why. Our fight helps highlight the problem in terms they understand... the bottom isk. Originally by: Davlos This is but one example of how your 'Cause' could easily achieve victory. But unfortunately, your leadership is too short-sighted and too fixated upon glory with this gunship "diplomacy" you claim to espouse. I'm sorry. Your argument does not convince me. I could have that uttered out of the Star Fraction's "Little Red Book" by any other 'Freecaptain' than yourself. We are anything but short sighted, defeating the expansionist Amarrian militia is only the first step in pushing back those who wish to control space at the expense of others. G.DIP ? They are just another militia corp that buckled under the pressure of our direct assaults. There have been many, there will be many more before this war is through. As for your little red book quip; I speak for myself and my cause. I have not been trained or brainwashed, I am a member of the Star Fraction because we fight for the same goals.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 13:54:00 - [104] Originally by: Davlos You think that by causing explosions amongst the various nations' armed forces, you could benefit the 'peaceful and industrial' populace of the cluster? How? If you geniunely want a debate you are going to need to learn to listen to what people say rather than replying to your own manufactured arguments. He wasn't talking about the regular forces of the baseline empires but of those willing agents in the capsuleer realm. Quote: The armed forces operate at the expense of the people. Causing more explosions amongst those armed forces will only incur more costs in replacements, and inflict a greater burden of taxation amongst the populace. They certainly wouldn't be thanking you for your kind and benevolent efforts of subsequently, raising their taxes. You have quite the regressive turn of phrase for the status quo. No change! No reform! "Steady-as-she-goes-davlos" eh? Lucky you have such a very unpersuasive voice or other capsuleers might be tempted to follow you. Quote: You miss out the point that in the end, the state of all four nations exist by the tacit consent of the governed. Certainly, it could be described that the downtrodden citizens of the Caldari State are not necessarily the most free-giving in tacit approvals, but it has already, been ingrained into their culture to value stability and prosperity for the masses above the self. Slaying their soldiers will only serve to enrage the populace further in greater nationalistic fury (which you are attempting to combat!), and it wouldn't aid your 'Cause' any one bit. Introduce a fierce sense of individualism amongst the Caldari, and victory is handed to you on a silver platter. But of course, your Dear Leader Constantine would scoff at that. You really don't seem to understand the struggle that is being fought here. This has nothing to do with current stasis and technological status quo in the baseline empires but in access to new directions and cultural options going forward. Talk about ingrained cultural bias and loyalty to the great Tibus Heth? How about I counter that with the gift of immortality and fiscal independence for you and your family and pretty much everyone you ever cared about? We'll see how long the "ingrained cultural bias" remains the prime-guiding factor in human understanding of the future. Quote: This is but one example of how your 'Cause' could easily achieve victory. But unfortunately, your leadership is too short-sighted and too fixated upon glory with this gunship "diplomacy" you claim to espouse. I'm sorry. Your argument does not convince me. I could have that uttered out of the Star Fraction's "Little Red Book" by any other 'Freecaptain' than yourself. As "examples" go - its a bad one. So I imagine we need to assume your other "examples" are every bit as poor. But before we get too involved in this discussion (and I trust you will listen more as we go along)... Lets remind the IGS public of our mutual history and your own position on the Star Fraction campaigns past and present. Would you like to tell your own side of the relationship starting with Mito as a backdrop? Go ahead Davlos - I think its neccessary for current readers to be aware of your politics and background. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.04 14:19:00 - [105] Originally by: ChipMo I said our cause will benefit peaceful and industrial people. As in, the result of removing nationalism and boarders makes life simple and more profitable for honest hard working people. The method we bring this about may not directly aid their lives but we do not hinder it in any way. Originally by: The Cosmopolite I would also point out that the holding of territory per se is not, contrary to your misrepresentation of things, the main concern of the Star Fraction. Rather, it is the manner in which the territory in question is administered. So, SF doesn't mind the holding of territory as long as it doesn't have any borders. I'm intrugued as to how an organisation can hold territory without any borders to that territory. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.04 14:28:00 - [106] Originally by: ChipMo I said our cause will benefit peaceful and industrial people. As in, the result of removing nationalism and boarders makes life simple and more profitable for honest hard working people. The method we bring this about may not directly aid their lives but we do not hinder it in any way. It is the grand delusion of the state that people must pay taxes and fund the upkeep of this unnecessary entity. If our actions force governments to up taxes, keep conscripting soldiers and expanding their armies it becomes more and more evident to the population how futile the modern nation or empire is in the face of a free thinking pod pilot. It's convenient and lofty to speak of and describe the end-state of your goal when you've yet to accomplish it. The subject matter of this discussion is the process and means undertaken during it. Doubtlessly, the ideal of the goal could be said to be commendable. The process, however... Quote: I disagree with your assessment of the Caldari. Back before I became a pod pilot I was a part of the industrial machine one thing we all hated was the taxes and tariffs that go along with everyday Caldari buisness. I heard rumors of "Anarchists fighting the state", "trouble causers" and "terrorists", but we paid little heed. It was only when I had command of my own vessel; out in the vastness of space I was able to see the Caldari state for what it was. Now I'm fairly ingrained in the fight to free the galaxy one empire at a time but I still remember those days as if it were yesterday. I and my comrades were not happy, they are still not happy but they cannot see why. Our fight helps highlight the problem in terms they understand... the bottom isk. Your justice, whose rationality? In the war of ideas, you decided to cop out with the easy way with the usage of munitions. Granted, I must confess to prefer the usage of my Autocannons most of the time, but it's business. I don't conjure excuses of, "We so loved the cluster, we send our missiles to liberate you." If you considered your 'comrades' as your friends, the least you could have done as an old friend would be to try to spread your ideas to them over several rounds of hak'len. And not go about molesting their holdings. Quote: We are anything but short sighted, defeating the expansionist Amarrian militia is only the first step in pushing back those who wish to control space at the expense of others. Well and good that you have a clearly stated goal. But, what next? It has been clear to the public at large that Star Fraction's public tantrums of the five years past have been aftershocks of five years of failure to dislodge your mortal foes, CVA from Providence. If five years of repeated tactical failures have resulted from trying the same means, you may wish to consider a different method of propagating your ideas. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.04 14:46:00 - [107] Originally by: Jade Constantine If you geniunely want a debate you are going to need to learn to listen to what people say rather than replying to your own manufactured arguments. He wasn't talking about the regular forces of the baseline empires but of those willing agents in the capsuleer realm. Point taken. But since your subordinate has gone along with it, I might as well too. Quote: You have quite the regressive turn of phrase for the status quo. No change! No reform! "Steady-as-she-goes-davlos" eh? Lucky you have such a very unpersuasive voice or other capsuleers might be tempted to follow you. I am not in particular a proponent of the status quo. You have been tragically mistaken there. My distaste for Tibus Heth's regime is known amongst friends, and I may go so far as to charge him with being un-Caldari for establishing his leadership without engendering the consensus betwixt the Factions that have made the State what it is today (or for argument's sake, the State prior to Heth's reign). Quote: You really don't seem to understand the struggle that is being fought here. This has nothing to do with current stasis and technological status quo in the baseline empires but in access to new directions and cultural options going forward. Talk about ingrained cultural bias and loyalty to the great Tibus Heth? How about I counter that with the gift of immortality and fiscal independence for you and your family and pretty much everyone you ever cared about? We'll see how long the "ingrained cultural bias" remains the prime-guiding factor in human understanding of the future. I think you underestimate the intense fear that keeps the Caldari consensus together here. Fear so intense that even if promised with such fantastical prospects, they may very well reject those gifts for the sole sake of the fear even of change. The 'ingrained cultural bias' as you have described here is quite deeply-entrenched. And even if you attempt to break it apart with bunker-buster munitions, you may end up slaying the fearful soul who may attain this so-called immortality and fiscal independence, but be as lost as cattle on a warship's bridge on what to do with it all. Which brings me back to my argument for the introduction of individualism firstly into the State, before even thinking of attempting such 'shock & awe' offers. I don't even want to start on the a posteriori knowledge that this 'ascension' to capsuleer pilothood is not for everyone. We are here because we got lucky with genetics and lifetime circumstances in order to survive training and not suffer the effects of mindlock. Quote: Lets remind the IGS public of our mutual history and your own position on the Star Fraction campaigns past and present. Would you like to tell your own side of the relationship starting with Mito as a backdrop? Go ahead Davlos - I think its neccessary for current readers to be aware of your politics and background. Mito? It gave me the opportunity to enlist with Omerta Syndicate, and I have been undermining the State quietly. On my own terms. Doing so in open rebellion is rather daft - I'd very much rather to keep a low profile. In the similar spirit of the desire of liberty for others, I've been freeing (mainly ethnic Minmatar) slaves and re-educating and rehabilitating them with funds out of my own pocket. I tend to be rather tacit when it comes to my personal (as you may define political) and business angles. My apologies if it has caused many a misunderstanding, and there you go: a clear definition. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 14:54:00 - [108] I am not in the business of putting hard and fast estimates on the time it may take for our philosophies to come to the fore in any particular polity. Our view is that the Minmatar people are primarily concerned with their freedom and security, rather than the conquest and enslavement of others, and in that context it is reasonable to be rather more patient and accept that some things take many years, indeed many generations to come to fruition. Now, as to territory and borders, well it all depends what one understands by borders. If a border is a barrier of some kind, it is, in our view undesirable. If a border, on the other hand, is more of a marker indicating the scope of a particular polity without implying significant limits to free individuals who happen to cross that marker, it's an altogether different thing. The problem I feel you Amarr paramilitaries have is that your conception of territory and borders is too limited and antique in nature. For you, a territory is a domain in which there is a rule and this rule is to be obeyed. In essence, for you, territories are prison-houses running according to the moral dictates of a given warder or prison board. A border is for you a fortification, whether real or notional, and a wall that bounds the prison-house of which you conceptually make any territory. You read any discussion of territory and borders and so forth through this rigid and almost unbreakable prism. That's ultimately your problem, however. Your imperialist viewpoint is your own and your vile empire will have to put up with the consequences of holding to it. I personally do not think the Minmatar share that view and I may say it is certainly not the case that the Thukker Tribe take that view. You characterise the emerging Tribal Republic as 'centralising' without any understanding at all of what appears to be going on within that polity. The Thukker have been guaranteed their autonomy. This is hardly centralising. The Tribes appear to be empowered by the new consensus rather than sidelined by an unstable and corrupt central parliament. This is not centralising. You misconceive, totally, the role of the Sanmatar in the tribal system. He is not a dictator, contrary to the propaganda your side spews forth unceasingly. He is, rather, a facilitator and bridge between the tribes giving the entire Minmatar people a focus. That is their system. Do I have issues with it? Yes. Do I see potential problems with it? Yes. But do I accept that so long as they do not use unjustified violence against others the Minmatar people can see to their own way of life? Yes, yes and yes again. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:08:00 - [109] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/08/2009 15:11:42 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/08/2009 15:09:14 Originally by: The Cosmopolite I am not in the business of putting hard and fast estimates on the time it may take for our philosophies to come to the fore in any particular polity. Our view is that the Minmatar people are primarily concerned with their freedom and security, rather than the conquest and enslavement of others, and in that context it is reasonable to be rather more patient and accept that some things take many years, indeed many generations to come to fruition. If the Minmatars were truly interested in the freedom and security of their people, they would enforce the barbaric voluval ritual which results in the mutilation and exile of so many of their own kind. They also wouldn't go around starting wars with larger neighbours. Quote: Now, as to territory and borders, well it all depends what one understands by borders. If a border is a barrier of some kind, it is, in our view undesirable. If a border, on the other hand, is more of a marker indicating the scope of a particular polity without implying significant limits to free individuals who happen to cross that marker, it's an altogether different thing. The problem I feel you Amarr paramilitaries have is that your conception of territory and borders is too limited and antique in nature. For you, a territory is a domain in which there is a rule and this rule is to be obeyed. In essence, for you, territories are prison-houses running according to the moral dictates of a given warder or prison board. A border is for you a fortification, whether real or notional, and a wall that bounds the prison-house of which you conceptually make any territory. You read any discussion of territory and borders and so forth through this rigid and almost unbreakable prism. That's ultimately your problem, however. Your imperialist viewpoint is your own and your vile empire will have to put up with the consequences of holding to it. I personally do not think the Minmatar share that view and I may say it is certainly not the case that the Thukker Tribe take that view. You characterise the emerging Tribal Republic as 'centralising' without any understanding at all of what appears to be going on within that polity. The Thukker have been guaranteed their autonomy. This is hardly centralising. The Tribes appear to be empowered by the new consensus rather than sidelined by an unstable and corrupt central parliament. This is not centralising. You misconceive, totally, the role of the Sanmatar in the tribal system. He is not a dictator, contrary to the propaganda your side spews forth unceasingly. He is, rather, a facilitator and bridge between the tribes giving the entire Minmatar people a focus. That is their system. Do I have issues with it? Yes. Do I see potential problems with it? Yes. But do I accept that so long as they do not use unjustified violence against others the Minmatar people can see to their own way of life? Yes, yes and yes again. The Cosmopolite Of course the current regime in the Republic is centralising. Since seizing power there, Shakor has done little but centralise things. You say that the old parliament was corrupt. Of course it was - it was a Minmatar institution devoid of any sanctity! However, it also represented the tribes, and through them the population. It was the tribes that held sovereignty, and they pooled it. Now though, all power derives from Shakor. And in my book, that is centralisation. The irony is not only that in attempting to compete with the Empire the Republic has adopted a more imperial system of governance, but also that that SF support them in doing so. Indeed, it could be argued that the Republic is now more centralised than the Empire, as the Amarrian nobility are given a wide degree of autonomy from the Imperial Court. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:21:00 - [110] I am not sure what your remark about the Voluval means, possibly your scribe slave has made an error? At any rate, the ritual is not so far as I am aware universally observed nor is it enforced by state sanction, so far as I am aware. I personally do regard the ritual as rather barbaric and I am bound to say it didn't exactly help advance Minmatar political development either. I openly hope for its abandonment or transformation into a simple cultural ceremony. As for the war. You know the answer to this. The Amarr started the war by conquering and enslaving the Minmatar people. They continued the war by keeping Minmatar enslaved continuously up to the point of the Elder Fleet incursions. The Amarr continue the war even now by still retaining Minmatar slaves and seeking to gather new ones in under the cover of the evil 24th Imperial Crusade. Stop trying to turn the victims in this matter into the aggressors. As to the Tribal Republic and the Sanmatar, your claims are laughably ignorant. To say that all power flows from Shakor is to betray the most absolute misunderstanding of the Minmatar and their politics. It's idiotic and purely propagandistic. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Jareth Desiato Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:27:00 - [111] Normally, I wouldn't even bother with a reply but: Originally by: Bootius McGee Even with their hired pirate guns, even with their begged assistance from their Caldari lapdog pets, they could not prevent the bold Minmatar militia from accomplishing what they had set in their sights. Can someone explain to me how you go about begging assistance from a pet? Despite Gallente propaganda, we Caldari favor an open sharing of opinions. Brisk competition forges stable economies. As IÆm sure even the most rabid Gallente liberal will agree, freedom requires an equal responsibility for oneÆs actions. In the future, please be responsible enough to make sense before you spew your baseless and inane opinions in a forum that the rest of us provide for you. The rest of civilization would not only thank you for it, but might be more inclined to actually listen to what youÆre trying to say. I would be very impressed indeed if your militia actually began to resemble a proper military force instead of a poorly-trained collection of pirates, terrorists and free-thinkers. Perhaps then you would win this so-called ôindependenceö you seek? Sincerely, J. Desiato, Ens. "The State is Mother. The State is Father."
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:40:00 - [112] Originally by: The Cosmopolite I am not sure what your remark about the Voluval means, possibly your scribe slave has made an error? At any rate, the ritual is not so far as I am aware universally observed nor is it enforced by state sanction, so far as I am aware. I personally do regard the ritual as rather barbaric and I am bound to say it didn't exactly help advance Minmatar political development either. I openly hope for its abandonment or transformation into a simple cultural ceremony. As for the war. You know the answer to this. The Amarr started the war by conquering and enslaving the Minmatar people. They continued the war by keeping Minmatar enslaved continuously up to the point of the Elder Fleet incursions. The Amarr continue the war even now by still retaining Minmatar slaves and seeking to gather new ones in under the cover of the evil 24th Imperial Crusade. Stop trying to turn the victims in this matter into the aggressors. As to the Tribal Republic and the Sanmatar, your claims are laughably ignorant. To say that all power flows from Shakor is to betray the most absolute misunderstanding of the Minmatar and their politics. It's idiotic and purely propagandistic. The Cosmopolite If the current war is a continuation of the old one, then perhaps you would care to explain why Emperor Heideran VII was awarded the Aidonis? If this war was really about slavery, then why didn't the Minmatars try to negotiate a settlement? The history of the Empire shows that we are a reasonable people in this respect - the Ni-Kunnis and Udorians have nearly all been freed. Emperor Doriam II released a number of infirm slaves before his ascension to the throne, and of course our current Empress has also shown herself willing to release slaves. While we're on the subject of slavery, just what is official SF policy on that these days? Regarding the Voluval, the Shakorites seem more than happy to let the barbarism continue. If anyone doubts just how barbaric it is, I suggest that they do some research. As for Shakor, answer me this: when did he tolerate any serious dissent to his rule? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
ChipMo Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 16:07:00 - [113] Originally by: Davlos It's convenient and lofty to speak of and describe the end-state of your goal when you've yet to accomplish it. The subject matter of this discussion is the process and means undertaken during it. Doubtlessly, the ideal of the goal could be said to be commendable. The process, however... I fear its somewhat inevitable to get a bit lofty in political summits. Regardless; violence is not the only method which we employ to progress the free space movement. It is the one which gains the most public acclaim though. I can see how it may appear as if thats all we do. I would love to tell you about some of the other tools in our anti-empire arsenal however, this would likely put our non-combat comrades at unnecessary risk. Originally by: Davlos Your justice, whose rationality? In the war of ideas, you decided to cop out with the easy way with the usage of munitions. Granted, I must confess to prefer the usage of my Autocannons most of the time, but it's business. I don't conjure excuses of, "We so loved the cluster, we send our missiles to liberate you." If you considered your 'comrades' as your friends, the least you could have done as an old friend would be to try to spread your ideas to them over several rounds of hak'len. And not go about molesting their holdings. The liberation of people is only really a side-effect of liberating the space. I believe people should be free to run a Caldari Corporation, so long as the participants agree, much like I believe the Amarr should be free to practice their religion so long as it doesn't impose on others. If the Caldari were to elect a radical new board and adopt a free space ideology there would be no need for any conflict there. I could have attempted to make this happen, however as I said earlier it was only once I became a pod pilot I saw the folly of empires. To abandon that and aspire to become board room elite I did not believe was plausible. Given the many lifetimes I can spend as a part of the Star Fraction I believe this course of action will be the most likely to effect change in the mega corporations. ChipMo sighs... Yes, I would like to get my old comrades on board with the free space movement. Honestly I rarely see caldari space these days, but before I left the general gist of our debates ended with them not believing they were capable of effecting the kind of changes I purposed given their current standing in the Caldari nation. I have not forgotten them though, hopefully if we succeed in bringing cloning and liberated industry to the masses they will feel more confident in the prospect of effecting the galaxy they are a part of. Originally by:* Davlos Well and good that you have a clearly stated goal. But, what next? It has been clear to the public at large that Star Fraction's public tantrums of the five years past have been aftershocks of five years of failure to dislodge your mortal foes, CVA from Providence. If five years of repeated tactical failures have resulted from trying the same means, you may wish to consider a different method of propagating your ideas. The Star Fraction as an organization has its goals, but they are not for the public domain. Keeping the empires guessing as to who may be next is a good thing, while I doubt one of the major 4 would adopt free space in this generation I suspect we may well see a capsuleer empire try it. About the CVA though, remember the free-space movement is always growing, the CVA are bound by their boarders. Granted previous campaigns may have failed, but it only takes 1 to succeed to topple an empire. Originally by: Davlos Point taken. But since your subordinate has gone along with it, I might as well too. Just for the record, my original post was in reference to peaceful & industrial capsuleer organizations however the philosophy holds true for the planet side populations as well. ...and there are no "subordinates" in the Star Fraction.
BattleStar Crusader Amarr Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.04 16:33:00 - [114] You not keeping any one guessing, every one knows your going to to in kamela being an absolute nusence for a very very long time. The day i see starfraction leave and wardec some one else is the day my corp leaves militia and goes to conqour NC on our own.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:27:00 - [115] Originally by: Davlos Well and good that you have a clearly stated goal. But, what next? It has been clear to the public at large that Star Fraction's public tantrums ... What are you talking about? I can only assume that word doesn't mean what you think it means. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:29:00 - [116] Originally by: BattleStar Crusader You not keeping any one guessing, every one knows your going to stay in kamela being an absolute nusence for a very very long time. The day i see starfraction leave and wardec some one else is the day my corp leaves militia and goes to conqour NC on our own. I'm glad to see that the 24th Crusade terror alert level for the Star Fraction is still making progress... Utterly Irrelevant Minor Opportunist Absolute Nuisance Total Bloody Liberty! We still have some work to do mind. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Zverofaust	Posted - 2009.08.05 07:32:00 - [117] Quote: Indeed, it could be argued that the Republic is now more centralised than the Empire, as the Amarrian nobility are given a wide degree of autonomy from the Imperial Court. Freedom for slave-owners is not freedom at all. Unless all are free, not one man truely is. The moral fiber of a society is not determined by the structure of their government but by how that structure is used, and the relationship between that structure and the masses within it. A strong government under the control of freemen is not something to fear; a strong government under the control of a handful of priviledged, despotic zealots, is.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:04:00 - [118] Originally by: Rodj Blake The last time I checked the Minmatar Republic and the Thukker Tribe both held territory and the Republic's occupation of that territory was recognised by CONCORD. The idea that they would be ludicrous to stop governing any of their territory simply because the SF thinks it might be nice is, frankly, ludicrous. So what other ideas that concern you are the Minmatar people willing to engage you in dialogue over? It is ingrained in the Minmatar culture that clan should interfere with the individual, the tribe with the clan, and the nation with the tribe, only as much as is necessary for mutual benefit, defense, and the continuation of said culture. We are able to communicate and co-operate with people who have, from our individual clan point of view, bizarre customs. We certainly have room for one clan or five of anarchists, too. Originally by: The Cosmopolite Indeed, if we believe that the use of force against the Tribal Republic and its militia is unnecessary in terms of our long-term goals, as we currently do "Currently?" Much appreciated, though. Originally by: Rodj Blake If you truly believe that the Minmatar Republic would adopt SF ideology and therefore give up all of its territory without a fight, then I suspect that you are either stupid or insane. No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. Else -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:34:00 - [119] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. Says the woman supporting the murder of a harmless old man.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:59:00 - [120] Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. Says the woman supporting the murder of a harmless old man. 1) Just because something is possible does not mean it is desirable in all cases. 2) I do not "support" the murder of Abel Sarek. I had nothing to do with it, and I do not care either way. 3) I do not support anarchism, either, for that matter. 4) There would bea number four, but I think this is starting to get way to complicated for an Amarrian mind already. Else -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:01:00 - [121] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. Says the woman supporting the murder of a harmless old man. 1) Just because something is possible does not mean it is desirable in all cases. 2) I do not "support" the murder of Abel Sarek. I had nothing to do with it, and I do not care either way. 3) I do not support anarchism, either, for that matter. 4) There would bea number four, but I think this is starting to get way to complicated for an Amarrian mind already. Else I'm sorry could you stick to 1-2 explanations please. By the time I got to 3 I forgot 1.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:42:00 - [122] Originally by: Rodj Blake While we're on the subject of slavery, just what is official SF policy on that these days? We oppose it. I would have thought this was passing clear but then you paramilitaries seem to have difficulty grasping the simplest of points. Originally by: Rodj Blake If the current war is a continuation of the old one, then perhaps you would care to explain why Emperor Heideran VII was awarded the Aidonis? If this war was really about slavery, then why didn't the Minmatars try to negotiate a settlement? The history of the Empire shows that we are a reasonable people in this respect - the Ni-Kunnis and Udorians have nearly all been freed. Emperor Doriam II released a number of infirm slaves before his ascension to the throne, and of course our current Empress has also shown herself willing to release slaves. I hardly think waiting nine generations before releasing the progeny of individuals who were taken as slaves constitutes reasonable behaviour. As to the Aidonis, really, are you so corrupted in your own beliefs and desperate to make some rickety case for the peacefulness of the Amarr Empire that you would pray in aid a foundation established by a former Gallentean President? I'll tell you my view of that ludicrous award: utterly debased by the crass decision to award it to a slobbering and evil old man ruling over a vast empire of slaves. The Gallenteans and the 'acceptable', by Gallentean lights, members of other races on the board of the Aidonis Foundation are a bunch of dupes who allowed themselves to be lulled by the self-serving foreign policy of an Emperor who simply acted according to the principles of realpolitik. Their judgement that the Amarr Empire had reconciled itself to peaceful means of engagement stands as a strong candidate for the most foolish and stupid decision in the annals of diplomacy in New Eden. It means nothing to me and, more importantly, it meant absolutely nothing to the billions kept in slavery before and after the Aidonis Foundation morally bankrupted itself for all time. Originally by: Rodj Blake As for Shakor, answer me this: when did he tolerate any serious dissent to his rule? Well, the key phrase here is 'serious dissent'. I am not sure what you conceive 'serious dissent' to be but as the thesis of the Amarr paramilitaries is that Shakor is seeking to become an equivalent to the Amarr Empress, let us look at what happens to people who refuse the orders of the Empress. What we see from recent events, and you can look them up as well as I, is that people are either summarily executed or taken into slavery, in some cases after the planets they live on have been subject to orbital bombardment. I think we can also fairly well say that actually disagreeing with the Amarr Empress is considered 'serious dissent' if this disagreement is expressed publicly (even the Heirs do so only behind closed doors) and subject to penalty. Now let's look at the record of the Tribal Republic. Multiple examples of disagreement and dissent with respect to the aims of Shakor can be found in the news without subsequent executions, imprisonments or other consequences common to a true imperial style of government. Further, Shakor's own policy is to increase the autonomy of the tribes in line with the role of his office as a mediator and not a 'dictator' or 'emperor'. The Amarr paramilitary comparisons of the Sanmatar with their Empress are inept. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:45:00 - [123] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake While we're on the subject of slavery, just what is official SF policy on that these days? We oppose it. I would have thought this was passing clear but then you paramilitaries seem to have difficulty grasping the simplest of points. It was anything but clear back in the days when SF was allied to active slavers, or for that time when there was at least one prominent supporter of slavery in the alliance. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:47:00 - [124] Originally by: Zverofaust Quote: Indeed, it could be argued that the Republic is now more centralised than the Empire, as the Amarrian nobility are given a wide degree of autonomy from the Imperial Court. Freedom for slave-owners is not freedom at all. Unless all are free, not one man truely is. So, you'll be storming the Republic prisons next? No one is truly free, everyone is restriced by laws or customs. And some people are more restricted than others. That's true of every society. Originally by: Zverofaust The moral fiber of a society is not determined by the structure of their government but by how that structure is used, and the relationship between that structure and the masses within it. A strong government under the control of freemen is not something to fear; a strong government under the control of a handful of priviledged, despotic zealots, is. You are confusing me now. You are saying that a few strong people ruling the masses is perfectly fine, as long as the masses like the few strong people? Does it really matter if some foreigners consider the few strong 'despotic zealots' for the few strong to be liked by the masses and therefore being moral rulers according to your definition? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:48:00 - [125] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake While we're on the subject of slavery, just what is official SF policy on that these days? We oppose it. I would have thought this was passing clear but then you paramilitaries seem to have difficulty grasping the simplest of points. It was anything but clear back in the days when SF was allied to active slavers, or for that time when there was at least one prominent supporter of slavery in the alliance. I suppose that would be like saying that PIE opposition to the Blood Raiders was anything but clear back in the days you had active Blood Raider supporters in you ranks and, what is more, actually took one back on merely his word that he had repented. But then, we all make mistakes, Blake. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:49:00 - [126] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Well, the key phrase here is 'serious dissent'. I am not sure what you conceive 'serious dissent' to be but as the thesis of the Amarr paramilitaries is that Shakor is seeking to become an equivalent to the Amarr Empress, let us look at what happens to people who refuse the orders of the Empress. What we see from recent events, and you can look them up as well as I, is that people are either summarily executed or taken into slavery, in some cases after the planets they live on have been subject to orbital bombardment. I think we can also fairly well say that actually disagreeing with the Amarr Empress is considered 'serious dissent' if this disagreement is expressed publicly (even the Heirs do so only behind closed doors) and subject to penalty. Now let's look at the record of the Tribal Republic. Multiple examples of disagreement and dissent with respect to the aims of Shakor can be found in the news without subsequent executions, imprisonments or other consequences common to a true imperial style of government. Further, Shakor's own policy is to increase the autonomy of the tribes in line with the role of his office as a mediator and not a 'dictator' or 'emperor'. The Amarr paramilitary comparisons of the Sanmatar with their Empress are inept. Which office carries more power - Sanmatar or Prime Minister? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:49:00 - [127] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. Else But not if they are employing slaves? ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:51:00 - [128] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 05/08/2009 13:55:20 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 05/08/2009 13:54:02 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 05/08/2009 13:51:18 Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake While we're on the subject of slavery, just what is official SF policy on that these days? We oppose it. I would have thought this was passing clear but then you paramilitaries seem to have difficulty grasping the simplest of points. It was anything but clear back in the days when SF was allied to active slavers, or for that time when there was at least one prominent supporter of slavery in the alliance. I suppose that would be like saying that PIE opposition to the Blood Raiders was anything but clear back in the days you had active Blood Raider supporters in you ranks and, what is more, actually took one back on merely his word that he had repented. But then, we all make mistakes, Blake. The Cosmopolite We did indeed for a while have a Blooder or two within our ranks, who left when the nature of their beliefs were discovered. They are now KOS to us. Your erstwhile allies made no secrets of their beliefs, however. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:52:00 - [129] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon No, we indeed have no intent to do anything of that sort. But cultures and ideals can co-exist. But not if they are employing slaves? As I have said before, if the Amarr insist on enslaving each other inside their own territory, that is hardly any of my business, even though I would think the practice distasteful to the extreme. I was never in favor of this war between our nations. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:55:00 - [130] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I was never in favor of this war between our nations. And yet, you unconditionally support those who were behind it. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:58:00 - [131] Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 05/08/2009 14:07:15 Originally by: Rodj Blake Which office carries more power - Sanmatar or Prime Minister? The true answer to that is that at this time it is not clear. To claim otherwise would, I think, be dishonest. Until the political reorganisation of the Minmatar Republic from a Gallentean-style parliamentary system to a system of autonomous tribes is completed the full answer will not be known. The stated policy of the Sanmatar is, however, a matter of record and it is anything but a policy of centralisation. No matter how much you try to say white is black it will still have a high albedo value, Blake. I'll tell you this much though, I don't see the Sanmatar ordering the Republic Fleet to execute a Minmatar freedom fighter in the middle of a parley and I'm not convinced that the Republic Fleet would obey such orders today even were they given. Yet this happened under Prime Minister Midular. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:58:00 - [132] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I was never in favor of this war between our nations. And yet, you unconditionally support those who were behind it. Not unconditionally. But, yes, I remain loyal. As I see it, at this point it is the best course of action, regarding the survival and freedom of my people. What is done is done; one plays the dice as they are thrown. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:06:00 - [133] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: The Cosmopolite Originally by: Rodj Blake It was anything but clear back in the days when SF was allied to active slavers, or for that time when there was at least one prominent supporter of slavery in the alliance. I suppose that would be like saying that PIE opposition to the Blood Raiders was anything but clear back in the days you had active Blood Raider supporters in you ranks and, what is more, actually took one back on merely his word that he had repented. But then, we all make mistakes, Blake. The Cosmopolite We did indeed for a while have a Blooder or two within our ranks, who left when the nature of their beliefs were discovered. They are now KOS to us. Your erstwhile allies made no secrets of their beliefs, however. Beliefs are one thing and ultimately we are not in the business of dictating what people should believe in, contrary to your mythologizing propaganda. When all is said and done, many a capsuleer organization in the cluster has had 'allies' with which they have not agreed on every jot and tittle of policy, including your own. At any rate, you will also note that the 'allies' are, as you say 'erstwhile' and there are none who profess the holding of slaves in our ranks. Organizations of capsuleers from time to time have their little internal issues and matters of disagreement or error to be dealt with more or less quickly. I suppose we can both celebrate the fact that the issues of our respective organizations that you have seen fit to dredge up are firmly in the past. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:15:00 - [134] Originally by: The Cosmopolite I'll tell you this much though, I don't see the Sanmatar ordering the Republic Fleet to execute a Minmatar freedom fighter in the middle of a parley and I'm not convinced that the Republic Fleet would obey such orders today even were they given. Yet this happened under Prime Minister Midular. If you do not expect the Sanmatar to be capable of ruthless action when necessary, you are underestimating him severely. Unlike you, I am also quite convinced that our Fleet remains loyal. That there was no truce has been gone over enough times again that I do not think asking for proof that there was will achieve nothing this time either. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:33:00 - [135] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon If you do not expect the Sanmatar to be capable of ruthless action when necessary, you are underestimating him severely. Unlike you, I am also quite convinced that our Fleet remains loyal. That there was no truce has been gone over enough times again that I do not think asking for proof that there was will achieve nothing this time either. We'll agree to disagree on the matter of the parley. I know this much, you don't invite people to a meeting under false pretences and then try to arrest them and, finding the person unwilling to be arrested, end up executing them and retain any honour whatever. I personally think that loyalty to a political machine of the kind that crude parliamentary politics leads to led to that dishonour and that is the kind of loyalty the fighters of Minmatar can do without, in my view. As to the Sanmatar and ruthlessness, you misunderstand my point. I am quite sure he is capable of ruthless action but I consider, from what I know of him, that he frames his actions from the perspective of what is good for the Minmatar people, not what is good for some Gallentean political abstraction bolted onto the Minmatar polity like a grotesque and unnecessary crutch. The reasons the Amarr paramilitaries writhe and twist and try to cast the Sanmatar as something other than a servant of the Minmatar people is clear enough. With the parliament and Midular they had a corrupt institution and, at best, an idealistic dupe to deal with. That parliament and that prime minister were sufficiently powerful to be able to cast aside the good of the Minmatar and act according to the preferences of two enormous empires: the Gallente and the Amarr. For the former, openly and actually willingly; for the latter, by being so easily penetrated and polluted by turncoats and agents of the slaver regime. The Amarr paramilitaries rail against the power of the Sanmatar, to whatever degree he may or may not have it, for one reason only: this is not a power they can turn against the Minmatar people and they know it. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 15:07:00 - [136] Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Amarr paramilitaries rail against the power of the Sanmatar, to whatever degree he may or may not have it, for one reason only: this is not a power they can turn against the Minmatar people and they know it. Considering you are supposed to be the anarchist here, I find your belief in the incorruptibility of any one man bizarre. Are you sure you are not secretly a Brutor? Your comments on the Midular reign also seem ill-informed and formulaic. Too much time with people who spent most of that time out of the Republic? Or simply being glad that nation states were driven to a war by the failure of that policy? Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 15:27:00 - [137] Since when has anarchism precluded the assessment of a man, his past and his likely motives and the drawing of conclusions from these facts and assessments about a man? You make the same old mistake that all statists make of grabbing together all the old saws and myths about anarchism and assuming that they are accurate portrayals of what we believe and how we should act. Whether or not Shakor is entirely incorruptible is not at issue here. He may or may not be. The question is whether he can be corrupted and suborned, subtly or otherwise, to act in the interest of the Amarr Empire. On that my judgement is that it is highly unlikely and, as I say, the Amarr know it and hence their frenzied and hysterical denunciations of him. As to the Midular regime, my remarks are informed by a number of different sources and my own observations. It's pat and easy to make the claim that the truth is 'formulaic' but then I suppose the truth is uncomfortable for those who uncritically supported Midular's policies. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.05 16:36:00 - [138] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Considering you are supposed to be the anarchist here, I find your belief in the incorruptibility of any one man bizarre. Are you sure you are not secretly a Brutor? You're woefully mistaken here, I'm afraid. For an anarchist society to function proper, it demands for all participants to be perfectly incorruptible individuals. It is based on this wild-eyed idealism that anarchism will never work unless it's carried out in small communities numbering less than a thousand. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.05 16:41:00 - [139] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Davlos Well and good that you have a clearly stated goal. But, what next? It has been clear to the public at large that Star Fraction's public tantrums ... What are you talking about? I can only assume that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Let's not be dense - we both know what's being spoken of here. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:13:00 - [140] Originally by: Davlos Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Davlos Well and good that you have a clearly stated goal. But, what next? It has been clear to the public at large that Star Fraction's public tantrums ... What are you talking about? I can only assume that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Let's not be dense - we both know what's being spoken of here. Not at all. You used an entirely inappropriate term to describe Star Fraction campaigns - I am simply asking if you understand what the word actually means or if its something you've copied from somewhere else. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:14:00 - [141] Originally by: Davlos You're woefully mistaken here, I'm afraid. For an anarchist society to function proper, it demands for all participants to be perfectly incorruptible individuals. It is based on this wild-eyed idealism that anarchism will never work unless it's carried out in small communities numbering less than a thousand. You really have no grasp of anarchist political theory. 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Davlos Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.06 21:50:00 - [142] Originally by: Jade Constantine Not at all. You used an entirely inappropriate term to describe Star Fraction campaigns - I am simply asking if you understand what the word actually means or if its something you've copied from somewhere else. Quote: You really have no grasp of anarchist political theory. Whose justice? Which rationality? What is appropriate for me may seem otherwise to your dainty ears. It's not something you wish to hear, and just close your ears and sing your favourite childhood song to block it out. You're running on emotivist ground here, where you change your definitions and terms as and when you see fit. I've only been learning from the best. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Foolish Bob Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust	Posted - 2009.08.10 22:58:00 - [143] Edited by: Foolish Bob on 10/08/2009 22:58:47 I'm bored. Where's my poking stick?!?! Aha! Originally by: Foolish Bob Brace yourselves, for I'm about to pull the thread back on topic. I must be ill or something Congrats to the minnies for taking a system of course, but for the OP I wouldn't think that this is going to be much of a psychological blow to the Amarr. After all outnumbering them by 500 pilots wasn't enough for you to acheive this victory - it required a majority of almost a full 1000 in order to make any headway against them. That's kind of cool. I'd also point out that I was there when Amarr was more outnumbered, more blobbed and more spied upon than it is now. Systems fell and U'K had cap fleets on standby to support most minmatar fleet actions. The tide turned then and I have every expectation that it will again. quoting because I just noticed that Halmah was re-captured yesterday and I called it seriously though guys it's not cool to keep doing well without me. You can hurt an egotistical megalomaniacal chap's feelings like that Edited for ninja apostrophe finding ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in. I'm also not a unique and special snowflake. Everything I say should be taken in that context.
Zverofaust	Posted - 2009.08.11 11:56:00 - [144] Originally by: Davlos Whose justice? Which rationality? What is appropriate for me may seem otherwise to your dainty ears. This ignorant belief that justice and rationality are entirely subjective further underlines your intellectual impotency. I find it humorously ironic that you berate others for selectively applying such definitions when you yourself opened your statement with such a declaration of belief and intent. Scientific knowledge knows no opinion or feeling; it is but pure fact, and while the irrationality of zealously small-minded people -- who cling to simplified caricatures to explain away that which they do not understand -- may seek to corrupt that truth to serve their own ends or justify their own means, in the end, the simple utterance of even the most basic fact is penultimately more powerful than the actions of any god or mythic being your mind can conjure.

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