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Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:01:00 - [31] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 07/08/2009 00:02:38 Originally by: Jin Entres We weren't discussing the viability of legion v zealot, we were discussing the loss of skillpoints as a deterrent to training. If you don't want to train for one because it's not good enough for the investment compared to other ships, that's fine, but then don't say that the loss of skillpoints is the reason. I don't fault you for not wanting to train for one, it certainly isn't a great performer as we've seen in this thread. Yet your deterrent to loss of skillpoint is "train it to lvl3". So are you dumb or just playing one? And yea viability of legion vs zealot is HEAVILY dependant on skill. lvl5 legion > lv5 zealot. Thus to fly efficiently you need all lv5. Having all lv5 = larger SP loss when you die. So you CAN NOT say those are totally separate things.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:13:00 - [32] Of course they are not separate, but you did a convenient switch of argument there. I said the skill loss was rather meaningless and you replied that it was enough to deter you from training them. The degree to which you risk skillpoints obviously depends on how far you train those skills. I used level 3 as an example that represented a laughable risk. But level 4 and even 5 are still pretty inconsequential from my perspective, compared to the monetary investment. And I will train many subsystems to 5. Note also that the subsystem bonuses are very inequal: defensive and offensive ones being for the most part many times more important than the others. This allows you to train those high and leave the others low if your aim is to minimize skill loss risk and maximise performance. I wouldn't be surprised actually if the loss was picked from all subsystem skills and not just the ones for the race in which case it would be possible to even further reduce the risk by training up other races' subsystems to 1. Clearly, how far you train skills can have a significant impact on whether the ship is viable at all. I didn't even argue against that. ----------------------
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Jin Entres Of course they are not separate, but you did a convenient switch of argument there. I said the skill loss was rather meaningless and you replied that it was enough to deter you from training them. The degree to which you risk skillpoints obviously depends on how far you train those skills. I used level 3 as an example that represented a laughable risk. But level 4 and even 5 are still pretty inconsequential from my perspective, compared to the monetary investment. I said it was enough to deter m from training it. And this is taking EVERYTHING into account, not just "i can sit in ship" training time. If we are talking about skills we are talking all level5. If we are comparing ships, we compare them at level 5. So its bloody obvious all talk by default is about "level 5 skills". As for monies: im at the point where isk loss on t3 hull is insignificant compared to SP loss.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:32:00 - [34] You must be a pretty new player then. And while normally I would accept that level 5 skills are the standard for comparison, there are two unique characteristics about strategical cruisers that make this a poor standard: the incentive to risk less by training less and the sheer amount of skills that provide inequal bonuses. IF risk is of no concern, then we can assume all skills at 5. But then you can't really claim that the risk is too high. Instead, scale risk with performance and evaluate whether any result on that spectrum is viable. You seem to have the naive assumption that you must maximise the risk of skill loss which then renders the whole ship untrainable. Again, take the context of your comment. You said nothing of the ship being viable only if the skills were maxed. You may have implied this in which case it is an error of communication on your part. I took your comment to mean what it said: that you saw skill loss as an insurmountable object to training the ship. No comparisons with zealot or any other ships came into it. ----------------------
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:39:00 - [35] Originally by: Jin Entres You must be a pretty new player then. Yeah. I bow to you 2003 vet, im not that old. Quote: And while normally I would accept that level 5 skills are the standard for comparison, there are two unique characteristics about strategical cruisers that make this a poor standard: the incentive to risk less by training less and the sheer amount of skills that provide inequal bonuses. Funnily enough if you train less you risk more. If you dont have DPS to kill enemy before he kills you - you are risking it. If you dont max defenses your chance of survival decreases. Electronic skills (lock time, eccm) also are important for re-locking or countering falcons. Power grid? If you dont max it you need to downgrade guns or put less plates = less dps or less tank = same as weaker offensive/defensive skills. Result? you might die instead of enemy. So all of subsystems are needed at lv5 if you want to be competetive. Quote: You seem to have the naive assumption that you must maximise the risk of skill loss which then renders the whole ship untrainable. Again, take the context of your comment. read up and stop assuming too much. especially when all your assumptions are wrong. Quote: You said nothing of the ship being viable only if the skills were maxed. Due to me not being "lol newb" but quite decent pvp pilot yes, all my ships must be maxed with proper fits. the ONLY exception is so called "lol-fit" (or that friggin unfortunate phoon... dont ask, had a bad day).
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:53:00 - [36] You seem to take this awfully personally. For some reason you seem to appreciate SP a lot. If you were a newer player with a relatively low total SP, that would be understandable. Otherwise it's just odd. Quote: Funnily enough if you train less you risk more. If you dont have DPS to kill enemy before he kills you - you are risking it. If you dont max defenses your chance of survival decreases. Electronic skills (lock time, eccm) also are important for re-locking or countering falcons. Power grid? If you dont max it you need to downgrade guns or put less plates = less dps or less tank = same as weaker offensive/defensive skills. Result? you might die instead of enemy. So all of subsystems are needed at lv5 if you want to be competetive. I guess you are, like you say, one of those people who fly nothing unless their skills are perfect for it. If that floats your boat, go ahead, but don't assume that everyone else needs to have a similarly black and white view of acceptable risk. It is, simply, the balancing of benefits with drawbacks. A little less power grid may make no difference to your setup. A little damage may make no difference whatsoever, depending on application. It is all very relative and you've stepped into the deep hole of speculation, my friend. Wasting time not flying a ship you could perform with at 90% efficiency is a risk, too, you know. Wasted opportunities. But that's your perogative. Don't get me wrong. Every bit of advantage is advantage, and you should always take it if you can. But investments come at different returns. The easiest example is probably gun spec 5's which many never train beacuse other skills just offer better returns. Yet it would be pretty sad if they didn't fly their ships just because they were at a 2% damage disadvantage. ----------------------
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.08.07 00:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Jin Entres It is all very relative and you've stepped into the deep hole of speculation, my friend. Wasting time not flying a ship you could perform with at 90% efficiency is a risk, too, you know. Wasted opportunities. But that's your perogative. Its called experience. having typhoon escape on 10% armor (1v1 with my bomber) because i had lvl4 covops not lvl5. Surviving on 5% structure because my overheat on sacri gave me another cycle, where rep systems lv4 guy would have died. It all adds up and in the end you know that having lvl5 instead of lvl4 can be and often is major difference. And when we are talking about expensive boats (faction bs, t3 ships, caps) it would be really stupid to die because you lacked this 5% to rep amount/resists or dps.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.07 01:03:00 - [38] The same line of reasoning could be used to justify an endless investment into gear. Afterall, you could survive with 1% hull by virtue of that expensive officer hardener you bought. I'm not advocating flying any ships with poor skills. When we're talking about T3 cruisers, I at least assume that people have good skills to support it. And wherever possible, as perfect as can be. But I don't have a problem with not maxing everything if it doesn't have a good enough return. If one values SP as you do, then one needs to consider whether a lower skilled version of the ship justifies its use. In the case of Tengu or Proteus instance it would probably be much easier to say that even at level 1 skills the ships clearly perform better than compared ships. Anyway, I don't think we have much left to argue about. I personally pretty much max all skills for the ships I fly like you do, but more so because I can and not because I must. ----------------------
Stargazer Monk	Posted - 2009.08.07 03:38:00 - [39] Subsystems are rank 1 skills...its hardly a penalty having them at lvl 5 considering the benefit you gain from T3 if your brain is in the right place. While as a newer player this may be a bigger impact losing a weeks training as opposed to a veteran player with most of their skills trained up. Oh and the Legion isn't so bad, I don't know what the ppl are smoking that say its not much better than a zealot/sac/drake? lol my mind boggles...Learn the strengths of the ships you fly and more importantly their limitations. Seriously, it's always the fotm guys that complain about ship balance. The beauty of a game like EVE is that it isn't just black or white and if there's a will there's a way.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.07 05:50:00 - [40] Worth noting also that the size of per-level effects on the subsystems combined with the relatively short training time (3 1/2 days?) for L4->L5 make it worth taking them to L5 imo. I mean on the Legion you get 10% bonus optimal, damage and cap use on Liquid Crystal Magnifiers, who wouldn't want to take that to L5? Likewise the "10% armour HP per level" is similarly massive on plated-fits.

IceAero Amarr Shadow Company THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2009.08.07 14:41:00 - [41] In most situations where the Proteus is reduced one mid slot (fitting covert subsystem vs armature, or powercore vs. cap regen) the legion is reduce a low slot! SO for most 'popular' pvp configurations (covert, or high dps+plate) the proteus has 7 lows and 3 mids, while the legion has 6 lows and 4 mids. It's pretty messed up, and is the biggest reason behind the legion's issues and the proteus' success. The legion is not a bad solo ship if you make it cap stable with 5 guns, 1 neut, a faction rep, and faction EANM. (T2 capacitor control relays help, but at 400m each). 500 dps 1700 m/s neuts 270 cap every 9 seconds reps 700 armor every 9 seconds (600 dps tank w/ overheat) and it can do all that forever as long as a curse doesn't show up =x
Research Shizzle	Posted - 2009.08.08 10:21:00 - [42] It took me 3 days 17 hours to train each subsystem skill from IV to V. Peanuts... IMHO, losing 3 days 17 hours training time is a joke.... Not worth crying about... and certainly not a factor that would keep me from using it in pvp.
nakKEDK Gallente tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.08.08 11:19:00 - [43] Edited by: nakKEDK on 08/08/2009 11:19:04 for the love of god, please tell me how to get 1k dps and 250k ehp. wit protues k
Arakidias The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.08 11:25:00 - [44] Originally by: nakKEDK Edited by: nakKEDK on 08/08/2009 11:19:04 for the love of god, please tell me how to get 1k dps and 250k ehp. wit protues HG slaves and other various implants + overheat? The typical eft warrior tools, although they are well applied to the proteus..
TII Noob	Posted - 2009.08.08 11:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Arakidias Originally by: nakKEDK Edited by: nakKEDK on 08/08/2009 11:19:04 for the love of god, please tell me how to get 1k dps and 250k ehp. wit protues HG slaves and other various implants + overheat? The typical eft warrior tools, although they are well applied to the proteus.. 1k dps >.<
CorryBasler Amarr Ammatar Free Corps Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.08 11:54:00 - [46] A Sniper Legion are pretty good fighters. PROUD MEMBER OF CVA AND AMMATAR FREE CORPS United States of America
SwindonBadger 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.08.08 11:59:00 - [47] One thing all ships have in commen t3... EVERYONE WANTS to pop them... so legion works great with its tank for that role, and almost as good as pr prot for small gang fightss, its a pleasure to tackle for them :) thats for sure and make a huge difference for small roaming gang Eat Them all, let the digestion sort em out
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.08.09 12:24:00 - [48] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 09/08/2009 12:29:44 Originally by: Arakidias Originally by: nakKEDK Edited by: nakKEDK on 08/08/2009 11:19:04 for the love of god, please tell me how to get 1k dps and 250k ehp. wit protues HG slaves and other various implants + overheat? The typical eft warrior tools, although they are well applied to the proteus.. http://upload.0x1011.org/files/DoomProteus.jpg Here's one I set up with LG slaves and some pretty cheap faction modules. Not as much armor buffer, but I managed to push it to 1128 dps with overheat - without o/h it's at 1000. In addition to this firepower, it gets 50% bonus to warp scram, a wing of 5 hammerheads/5 warriors each, and a massive bonus to MWD capacitor use. If you want the 250k ehp model, swap some neutrons for ions and cram on another plate however you see fit. Tell me again how the Legion competes? Please.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.08.09 15:20:00 - [49] Well I got my salvaging Legion a few days ago, it is quite nice at that role.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:51:00 - [50] Well, that changes everything.

Intigo Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:57:00 - [51] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Well I got my salvaging Legion a few days ago, it is quite nice at that role. Best comment ever. :D And yes, the Legion blows massive amounts of chunks compared to Proteus / Tengu, that's why people hate on it. And the fact that Zealot is overpowered so why fly T3 when you can fly T2? ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Miss Margarita	Posted - 2009.08.09 23:32:00 - [52] I just realized ONE Thing the legion does better then any other ship... I give you.. the DamnGion! [Tengu - Warfare] Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Legion Defensive - Warfare Processor Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Yes... something BETTER then the damnation at armored warfare links. Leave this at a friendly pos running.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.08.09 23:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 09/08/2009 12:29:44 Originally by: Arakidias Originally by: nakKEDK Edited by: nakKEDK on 08/08/2009 11:19:04 for the love of god, please tell me how to get 1k dps and 250k ehp. wit protues HG slaves and other various implants + overheat? The typical eft warrior tools, although they are well applied to the proteus.. http://upload.0x1011.org/files/DoomProteus.jpg Here's one I set up with LG slaves and some pretty cheap faction modules. Not as much armor buffer, but I managed to push it to 1128 dps with overheat - without o/h it's at 1000. In addition to this firepower, it gets 50% bonus to warp scram, a wing of 5 hammerheads/5 warriors each, and a massive bonus to MWD capacitor use. If you want the 250k ehp model, swap some neutrons for ions and cram on another plate however you see fit. Tell me again how the Legion competes? Please. While your highs and lows are ok, the mids are simply a comedy. A blasterboat with no real means of tackling it's target is a lolmail waiting to happen. Realistically, you'll have web + scram, meaning no cap booster, while you'll be able to drop the ancillary rig for the 3rd trimark. Gank and tank potential of such ship is truly awesome, and legion surely can't compete in gank department. But neutralizing and tracking disrupting pretty much means it's a very risky option for soloing. On the other hand, you can get a ham legion. Tank can get close to true monster levels since 2 plates fit. Downside is agility, 2 plates mean its actually more sluggish than a normal plated BC although notably faster. This is obviously not going to work well in fast gangs. The dps can hardly match proteus in sheer amount, but taking into account it is not affected by cap or tracking issues and can chose the type (something the proteus can only dream of, being stuck with it's crappy kinetic/thermal combo), and also that it would have a free mid slot for whatever fits the situation at hand, I'd say it's a more flexible ship. Tank is superior to the 1000 dps proteus due to second plate, dps is much lower but with several useful additions that I mentioned, it is as cap independant as a pvp ship can get. I'd say generally speaking ships compare well to each other, with proteus having much more raw hitting power, while legion is walking along the lines of playing it safe. Personally, I'd never take the neutron gank proteus for soloing for the same reason I naver take the absolution, 3 mid slots on an expensive cap-dependant ship is a no-no.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.09 23:51:00 - [54] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 09/08/2009 23:52:13 Originally by: Miss Margarita I just realized ONE Thing the legion does better then any other ship... I give you.. the DamnGion! [Tengu - Warfare] Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Legion Defensive - Warfare Processor Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Yes... something BETTER then the damnation at armored warfare links. Leave this at a friendly pos running. Granted the armored warfare links are 1.5% less effective than the legion (that is a legion you created ), the damnation can fit two more links, which completely nullifies the slight % advantage/cost. [Damnation, Damnation] Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Command Processor I Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority Information Warfare Link - Recon Operation Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 10/08/2009 00:41:01 Originally by: Vrabac While your highs and lows are ok, the mids are simply a comedy. A blasterboat with no real means of tackling it's target is a lolmail waiting to happen. Ignore those, they're just left over from another EFT fit I changed around to make this one. I just couldn't be arsed to switch modules, is all - instead I wanted to demonstrate the Proteus' respectable dps output, flexibility, interesting bonuses, and hp buffer; you know, the stuff that makes Proteus cool and Legion not, because its performance eclipses the Legion completely.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:40:00 - [56] The configuration I use at the moment is a beefed up zealot and looks like this. Sub skills at 4, lg slaves, damage with scorch is 377 DPS (with 28 and 32 km optimals with focused and heavy). Basically compared to a similarly fitted zealot it has some 97% more EHP, a built in sensor booster due to the subsystem (yay for frig swatting) and the extra mid for tracking disrupting which is definitely a welcome increase in survivability. Everything else is pretty much identical, except that zealot is tighter to fit. So basically it's like flying a zealot with doubled survivability and the misc perks (lock speed, extra mid, heat bonus). I'm not sure if that justifies the price tag but I'd say it's still pretty good (and definitely more than I expected from T3 ships in the first place). Oh and btw, it also looks pretty cool. ----------------------
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:57:00 - [57] HAMS ftw tbh
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2009.08.10 00:58:00 - [58] Originally by: arbiter reborn HAMS ftw tbh With HAMs there is no reason not to go Tengu instead, though. At least lasers are speshul. ----------------------
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.08.10 01:02:00 - [59] HAM tengu is just so stupidly good over HAM legion
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2009.08.10 01:05:00 - [60] If I'd try to make a zealot of it, I'd go with locus and grid rigs and use only HPLs and small cap booster. 520 dps with scorch at 48km with 2 t2 locus rigs and 72k ehp with no slaves or gang bonuses looks nice enough to me. For a ship that does damage at range I'd say trimarks don't pay off as much, so would focus on maxing it's range advantage instead, with no real related penalties. Tank is still very respectable keeping in mind its a 50km range ship.



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